Since some here are the AC police, lets ask them if they have a flat screen TV.

[Neshanic]

Since people like us that live in the desert have AC and use it, and get a finger wagged at us, how many of you people doing the finger pointing have a flat screen or two or three?

They use massive amounts of electricity. So how many here have those?

I don't.

[notadmblnd]

1. no flat screen TV and no AC

[Eric J in MN]

2. Do flat screen TVs use more electricity than other TVs...

...of the same screen-size?

[pnwmom]

32. I've read that plasma TVs use 3X the electricity for their size.

No link, you can google it if you're interested.

[tridim]

3. LCD TV's use less power than traditional CRT TV's.

And I use a swamp cooler. No AC here.

[Eric J in MN]

5. How do plasma flat-screens compare with regular TVs...

...of the same screen-size?

[Midlodemocrat]

11. IIRC, plasma uses the greatest amount of electricity.

[Tesha]

29. My reply in .28 contains some actual data. (NT)

[Occulus]

71. I have a 50" Samsung DLP set

How am I doing?

Oh- a halogen lamp lights the mirrors. I don't know if I can convert it to to a white LED array or not.

[Tesha]

73. DLPs are reasonable.

DLPs are reasonable but are you really sure it's
a tungsten-halogen lamp that lights the mirrors?
Many (most?) DLPs use a metal-halide arc lamp.
The arc lamp is much more efficient so it creates
less waste heat per unit of light. The light is
also bluer (a higher color temperature).

Either way, at the moment, it's impractical to
convert either type of lamp to LEDs ex-post-facto.

I think you can roughly consider LCD, CRT, and
metal-halide DLP to be roughly equivalent in terms
of electrical power for a given screen size but
the nameplate on the set tells the ultimate tale.

Tesha

[Tesha]

28. No they don't.

> LCD TV's use less power than traditional CRT TV's.

No they don't. There's some dependency on screen size,
of course, but the nameplate on our 32" CRT says "185
Watts" and the nameplate on our 52" LCD says "320 Watts".
Based on how hot the two sets get, there's also no doubt
that the LCD is drawing more power. So if people have
"stepped up" in terms of screen size, they're using
*MORE* power, not less.

But let's assume they actually did restrain themselves;
what would a 32" LCD draw? Well, Sony claims that
one particular model (KDL32XBR6) draws "160 Watts", so
there's some minor power savings compared to a CRT, but
not enough to really make any great claims. And please
note that the actual screen area on that 32" LCD (in
16:9 format) is quite a bit less than on our 32" 4:3
format CRT TV.)

http://www.sonystyle.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?catalogId=10551&storeId=10151&langId=-1&productId=8198552921665378963

So no, on average, the switch to LCD TVs is probably
a *STEP UP* in power consumption. It was much worse
with plasma, of course, where 600W was common, but
LCD TVs are no panacea.

Tesha

[EOTE]

43. You do know that your LCD is about 2.25x larger, right?

Diagonal screen size for diagonal screen size, LCDs draw a good deal less power than CRTs. I use back up UPSs at my work all the time. A 19" CRT gets about 5 minutes of operating time on it while the 19" LCD gets about 8, that should give you a far better determiner of power draw. Also, you state that a 16:9 32" set is much smaller than a 4:3 set, it's actually only around 10% I believe. Not as tall, but around 33% wider. What's important to consider is that the rated wattage is not an average power draw, but a max. Neither set is drawing anywhere around max for very long. CRTs are great, but they're power hogs compared to LCDs.

[Puzzler]

53. CRT's also produce far more heat than LCD's....

... and it takes energy to produce heat.

[Tesha]

69. Are all DUers completely illiterate when it comes to science?

> CRT's also produce far more heat than LCD's
> and it takes energy to produce heat.

Are all DUers completely illiterate when it comes to science?
Essentially *ALL* of the electrical power fed into a home
entertainment system is converted to heat. Oh, a little of
the input power lingers briefly as light or as acoustic
vibrations of the air, but that ends up as heat as well.

*THE ONLY THING YOU NEED TO KNOW* is the amount of
electrical power consumed by a home entertainment
system. All of that power will eventually be emitted
to the ambient environment as heat.

So I provided data above that shows that, size-for-size,
an LCD TV consumes about the same power as a CRT TV set
of the same screen area. So they emit about the same
amount of heat.

Tesha

[Tesha]

70. Do the math again

> You do know that your LCD is about 2.25x larger, right?

Of course; I covered in my reply the entire question
of "like for like"s sizing. And we *KNOW* that almost
everybody is "trading up" to a bigger screen.

Also, I said the displayed area of a 16:9 set is "quite
a bit less" than the displayed area of a 3:4 set, not
"much smaller", but nice attempt to put words in my
mouth. The actual ratio, BTW, is about 0.89 for sets
that have the same (theoretical) diagonal measurement.

There's *STILL* no factual evidence in this thread
to support your claim that "CRTs are great, but they're
power hogs compared to LCDs." Now OLED TVs, they may
be power-saving, but they're not practical for big
screens yet.

Tesha

[Liberal Veteran]

4. Heretic! How dare you use electricity to be comfortable!

:sarcasm:

[SoCalDem]

51. As a post-menopausal woman, I decided that life is too short to be sweaty n/t

[DS1]

6. no televisions at all

:P

[Midlodemocrat]

8. Seriously?

I honestly couldn't live without watching some shows that I have truly grown fond of. Well, yes, of course, I could, but I would miss it a great deal.

[DS1]

16. I watch shows, that's for sure

but do not use a television to do so

[Midlodemocrat]

17. Gotcha. I prefer watching while sitting on the couch,

because my computer is upstairs in my office and if I use that, I feel as though I should be working.

Not too good at shutting things down, am I.

[DS1]

20. with my low attention span

it's okay with me, because i can just double click the screen the make the video not full-sized anymore, and read news. or look up nude pictures of hotties in movies.

[sammythecat]

64. I know what you mean.

Regular television can often seem tedious. I miss not being able to instantly get a definition, or more info on a person or subject, and then go right back where I was. I have to admit though, that I'm not a very disciplined surfer as far as staying on track goes. I can start out looking for car prices and within 15 minutes I'm reading about Carthaginian war elephants.

[Better Believe It]

14. What's A TV? Heared It Shows Movin Pictures In Your Shack!

Seriously.

We don't live in a desert and use AC, have a flat screen TV and a flat screen monitor on our desktop.

Are we bad people?

[Midlodemocrat]

7. I have A/C. Use it all summer.

Have an LCD flat screen as well.

Doing my best to reduce my carbon footprint, and for a family of five, ours is considerably smaller than lots. Especially our house. I have friends and neighbors moving into 6000 sq foot homes who have two children. NO ONE needs that much space!!! It's so wasteful.

Climbing off my soap box, now.

[rox63]

9. I have the old-fashioned teevee with a tube

But I live in the northeast and I love my central AC. I only use it during the summer, because my upstairs condo gets extremely hot (all the windows face south) without it. But it also stays nice and cozy warm during the winter. My heating bills are fairly low for New England.

[Puzzler]

10. What kind of flat screen?

There is a big difference in the power consumptions: plasmas use quite a lot of power and LCDs do not.

(BTW, many people seem to think that all flat screen TVs are plasma... actually most are LCD, because they are cheaper).

[AlCzervik]

13. i have a flat screen that is an lcd, people who think all flat screens are plasmas

must think all toyota's are Nissans.

[EOTE]

46. You'd be surprised how many luddites are out there.

Wait until the new flat panel technologies such as OLED come out. I'd imagine people would be mighty pissed after laying down 10 grand on a set that weighs less than 30 lbs when their neighbor tells them that they like the new plasma (I haven't seen any plasmas under a hundred pounds).

[AlCzervik]

47. 10 grand for a tv just seems so nuts, i know people spend a lot on a/v stuff but that's

just so outside my pay grade. You know what pisses me off, i buy a new tv, now while i'm waiting for it to be delivered the family room had no tv for about a week and i got used to it, so the new tv gets here, all set up on a nice stand, blue ray player as well and i think that in the 2 months i've had it i've watched a few movies and the nba playoffs and then championship and that was it, the thing is never on. It ended up being a total waste of money for me and i have no one to blame but myself.

[AlCzervik]

12. i have a/c and i use it and unless someone wants to come on over and fan me

and get a mojito i'll still be using the a/c. I keep mine set at around 80f, thankfully in a few months it will be off.

[mrreowwr_kittty]

15. I'm in Phoenix and I'd die without it.

Luckily, I'm so acclimated to the heat here that I can keep the thermostat at 82 and still be comfortable.

[ChazII]

58. Lived in the valley all of my life

and keep the AC at 78. AC over flat screen television for sure.

[Warpy]

18. Plasma sets use buttloads of energy and run hot

raising cooling costs.

LCD sets are more economical than CRT sets.

You know what you can do with that finger.

FWIW, refrigerated AC in the desert is just plain silly unless the owner has health considerations that warrant it. Swamp coolers do the same job for a fraction of the energy.

People in my neck of the desert are starting to figure that out, and the McMansions with central AC are starting to be retrofitted with swamp coolers to make them more attractive to buyers.

[Neshanic]

23. And what neck 'o the desert do you live in?

[Journeyman]

19. I have to use AC -- I work out of the home & the computers would fry without it. . .

I try to do without it as much as possible but when the heat puts strain on the electronics, that's my livelihood and I can't risk losing it or having it's effective use cut short.

[Bonobo]

21. No flat screen, no AC here. 95 degrees here today. nt

[Cleita]

22. I don't have air conditioning but I certainly don't renege anyone who is

living inland and out in the desert for having air conditioning. In the past I lived at a time when only theaters had AC, an inland city in California where it could get to 120 degrees, and often was between 105 and 110 in the summer. I certainly can understand it. If it gets too hot here on the coast like it did a couple of weeks ago, I get into my car and drive around in the air conditioning until I get to the mall to stay at until it cools off. I try to conserve energy because I really can't afford it anymore but in extreme heat all bets are off. I don't need heat stroke on top of my other deteriorating health problems. I don't believe anyone else does either.

[hlthe2b]

24. No flat screen, only a 15 inch tv/LCD monitor...swamp cooler only...

[Evoman]

25. This is fun. I get to beat on both AC users AND flat screen people.

Hell, I don't even watch tv or drive a car, and I live in a small apartment, so I'm holier than all you energy hogging losers.


Neener, neener, neener.

:)

[Neshanic]

26. Nobody is safe here. Maybe you use that evil nuclear power...hmmmm?

[Evoman]

34. Nope.

Plus, I work in a field doing work that could be called environmental.

Yeah...that's right...ENVIRONMENTAL!

So there.

Plus, I recycle.

Take that, you energy leeches.

[Neshanic]

38. Oh, there is something you are guilty of. Do you have an electric juicer?

[DiverDave]

54. Dang it, I spit soda outta my nose

Now I gotta clean my keyboard

[cobalt1999]

27. 1 flat screen, no A/C

The TV is probably on for 1 hour per week/avg. though.

I'm also not going to claim that I HAVE to have a flat screen or any other modern comfort to survive because I don't.

I CHOOSE to have some comforts and I'm conscience of the fact that it is my choice.

No one should wag their finger at anyone.

Everyone makes their own choices.

[AZ Criminal JD]

30. When Gore gives up his mansion, SUVs, and conveniences

I will think about reducing my standard of living.

[cobalt1999]

36. You are not responsible for Gore or anyone else

Only yourself. You should make your choices based on your own value system and that doesn't mean waiting for someone else.

If you choose not to make changes, so be it. However, it's YOUR choice and you can't blame Gore or anyone else for your choices.

[AZ Criminal JD]

45. You're right. I have made my choices

And I don't want him lecturing at me about my choices when he lives in 24 hour luxury.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

55. Can you believe that Gore guy with his Ozone warming theory?

I, for one, know I didn't come from some monkey's butthole!

[CrispyQ]

31. Big screen TV, but not flat screen.

Oscillating fan with a spray bottle of cold water & iced tea to cool down. No air. The other day our house was 89 degrees at 9pm. We joke that we are in Global Warming Bootcamp. ;)

[The Straight Story]

33. Who the hell was bitching about AC in the desert?

Gonna make me rant...

[Neshanic]

37. See AC poll in the neighborhood....apparently it is uneeded in places like the Low Sonoran Desert.

[loveable liberal]

35. Have AC and flat screen.

Replaced all my windows, insulated my attic, redid roof, replaced all outer doors. Insulation and windows saved me tons last winter. Oh, and I replaced my central air unit with the highest efficiency available.

Getting off the grid is the next big step.

[Manifestor_of_Light]

39. Saw an ambulance today at a bus stop.

Waiting for a bus in Houston is hazardous to your health, due to the heat AND humidity.
They probably got heat exhaustion waiting for a bus.

I once got heat exhaustion in Fresno waiting for a bus.

Vomiting from heat exhaustion is not fun.

[AlCzervik]

40. on monday i was in Houston and we decided to go to old town Spring and when we

got back to the house i was starting to feel really sick, i know it was from the heat and i should have drank more water but it makes me wonder how i ever lived there, it was just oppressive.

[Manifestor_of_Light]

42. You have to hide in the AC for several months out of the year.

Houston is the most air-conditioned city in the world for a good reason. It's hot AND humid. Dallas and San Antonio are less humid, but still pretty intolerable most of the time.

I read a story once that people from Europe would visit here, and damn near pass out going from a building to their car in the parking lot. I believe it.

[AlCzervik]

44. when i lived in Texas i must have stayed in the house a lot, i mean it gets hot

here in Sac but that humidty is just the worst thing ever.

[Beausoleil]

41. I have a 52" DLP, comparable to a 32" analog CRT

"A review of the testing data shows them to be fairly inexpensive to operate, especially when compared to Plasma and LCD units of similar size. One way to compare power consumption is to calculate the watts used per inch of screen size (wpi). One recent test showed a 50 inch plasma unit measuring its wpi at 9.02 watts. Dropping to a 43 inch screen produced a mark of 6.12 watts. This is an increase of almost one third more power consumption for a mere 7 additional inches. By comparison, a look at several DLP 50 inch models yielded a wpi of between 3.12-3.86 watts.

Since a 32 inch CRT analog model included in this study was measured at 3.12 watts, a figure identical to the low end of the DLP scale, it is easy to see that the DLP is offering a larger screen, and quite a bit better image resolution with little, if any, increase in power consumption."

http://www.theplasmatvblog.com/dlp-tv-basics/power-consumption-of-a-dlp-television.htm

I love my DLP. However, in Texas, it's hard to live without a/c.

[EOTE]

49. Watch per inch doesn't tell you very much at all.

For instance, the example you link to compares a 50" screen compared to a 43" screen and finds out (not surprisingly) that the 50" screen uses about a third more energy than the 43" model. Why would that be? Ummm, because the 50" model is about 35% larger than the 43" model in terms of screen area. Comparing sets of the same aspect ratio, a 40" set would be four times as large as a 20" set, not two times. Watts per inch doesn't tell you anything except that the smaller set you have the "more wpi" you'll have. Watts per square inch of viewable screen area tells you how truly efficient the set is.

[Beausoleil]

60. I think the article was also comparing wpi of plasma vs. DLP

for the same screen size. The point I was making is that DLP is much more efficient than plasma, therefore uses a lot less power and generates much less heat.

[wvbygod]

48. How can we be comfortable and watch TV

While the rest of the world looks at us as arrogant? Should we not suffer, get malaria,
freeze, overheat, starve, refuse medical aid and just die off while the rest of the world
looks down upon us?

Who do we think we are?

[KillCapitalism]

50. That's insane that people here are blasting other people for using A/C.

Here in St. Louis during the summer, your life depends on A/C, especially if you're elderly. Every summer when we get a very nasty heat wave you always see stories on the local news of people who have died in their homes because they had no A/C. The nastiest heat wave I remember was the one we had in 1995. Hundreds of people died in that one. 105*F with 90% humidity here is WAY worse than 120*F and 20% humidity in places like Phoenix.

[tpsbmam]

57. Ugh...I lived in Wisconsin (Madison) then....same heat wave as St. Louis &

Chicago where so many also died. I didn't have A/C in the house at the time. I worked in a hospital so I was okay during the day but my poor dogs! I left fans all over, bowls of water everywhere, left a couple of cooling pads on the floor....got home from work one day and my labrador was covered with shit, could barely stand up and appeared disoriented. Raced her to the vet -- poor sweetie had had a seizure. We assumed it was due to the heat -- it never happened again. Hell, I put in A/C for my dogs after that and some people here are begrudging people use of A/C. Though I suspect most would make exceptions for the elderly and people with health problems that make A/C necessary (me!), too often we brush with a broad stroke and don't consider the many reasons people may need A/C. As I've said before, I'd still use it if I didn't need it medically, though probably about 20 days a summer instead of the maybe 30-40 days a summer I use it now.

[madokie]

52. 2 summers ago my wife and I were out garage selling and bought a 50 inch

mitsubitsu flat screen for, drum roll please, 5 bucks. I originally bought it so I could take it apart and see what it was made of and when I got it home and took the back off it was obvious that this thing only needed a good cleaning, so a good cleaning it got and my wife has been watching it since. I can buy a lot of electric with the money we saved on that purchase. I know thats missing the point but I just wanted to tell you my story too.

[WillowTree]

56. Standard CRT TVs. They work fine, so no reason to replace yet.

My condo has three thru-the-wall AC units. It's great because I can stay comfy but only have to cool the room I'm in. And because of my positioning in the building, the bedroom has very little exterior wall space, which helps to keep it from getting as warm as the rest of the house. Even on days when it's been very hot, I never turn on the AC in the bedroom until about 15 minutes before I go to bed and it's perfectly comfortable.

Love this set-up. I can stay comfortable without wasting electricity to cool rooms I'm not using or running up my electric bill.

[Captain Angry]

59. Man you're dumb. Just go stay at your summer home at the beach?

Or the one up in the mountains.

Good grief.


OK, for the really sarcasm impaired, that is really, really sarcastic and obviously not meant to be a real response.

[Trillo]

61. Biggest power use in my house is the REFRIGERATOR.

I'd love a new one but, maybe some day. Get this ... they put electric heaters in them!

[caraher]

63. On some models you can turn fridge door heaters down or off

And we've seen what happens if you're in a non-AC home with fridge heaters off. You get condensation all over the doors followed by mildew. If you don't have much humidity it's not a problem.

There is an elephant in the room - *why* are so many people living in deserts and other places where AC is a necessity? With AC came big shifts in population; the combination of cheap energy and AC technology making inhospitable climates inhabitable and businesses fleeing the "rust belt" for anti-labor, low tax southern states have arguably led to overpopulation of areas that aren't naturally fit for the populations they now hold. The much-maligned rust belt can have nasty winters, but there's also fresh water and only a brief season during which anyone might really consider air conditioning a necessity.

Obviously there are huge energy costs associated with conventional home heating in colder areas, so it's clearly not as if desert dwellers are the only ones living in arguably "unnatural" climates.

We have AC that we run sparingly, and would not accept a plasma TV (or halogen room light) if it were given me for free. And the LCD/plasma distinction is important, and too many people don't make it.

LCD trivia - power consumption is generally larger on LCD screens when they are dark. So don't run old-school "screen savers" on LCD monitors - "burn-in" doesn't work the way it does on CRTs, and neither do patterns of power consumption.

[Trillo]

65. Speaking of mold,

what I've never understood is why more semi-arid region homes aren't built wholly or partly underground. There is a potential mold problem that, I've read, with the right waterproofing agents and construction techniques can be solved so long as the structure is above the water table.

Look at the pluses. The underground temps are a fairly constant ~58 degrees F, even in very cold areas when you're below the frost line, or during hot summer months. So, why run AC when building codes could be altered to have at least part of the structure underground? Alternatively, during cold winters, 58 degrees F would likely require less heating than above ground structures where outside temps might be 20F or below. It just seems like it would require less energy to warm room-space up from 58 degrees, than from 20F or less.

In the old days before refrigeration (or AC -- very similar to each other) I believe they were called 'root cellars', and in some northern areas were typically built separate from the home, underground. They kept foodstuffs from freezing in winter and from spoiling in summer.

The only answer I've been able to come up with for these building code 'oversights' is that our homes are designed specifically to use lots of energy -- this in turn is good for those selling energy.

[caraher]

66. Excellent points

though I'm inclined to think it's less a conspiracy to sell power than the result of energy being cheap historically and humans creatures of habit.

Going underground and using a wide array of other "passive" techniques to keep our dwellings comfortable is just plain smart. We'll see more of that as circumstances demand rethinking how we live.

[MullenBank]

62. I've got

AC (cranked 'caused its fuckn hot in NC) and a flat screen - samsung 52 inch- plus my pc monitor is a big dell. But my day to day car is a corolla. Why do you ask? Should I read this whole thread? Shit I dunno..... AAR my house is pretty energy efficient but I very likely have a larger carbon footprint than I could have... but I like AC and flat screen TV. Plus, not to put too fine a point on it, I can afford to pay for them So whats the big deal...

[caraher]

67. I dunno, maybe because having the money to do it doesn't make it wise?

At a minimum you can figure out your carbon footprint and invest in green projects on a level that might carve your effective footprint to the level you choose.

Carbon offsets are somewhat controversial, but at a minimum they have educational value.

But the best offset is not to release the CO2 in the first place.

[MullenBank]

68. Isn't CO2

released when you breathe? I'll delegate that project to you... keep me updated.

Choose? Well I'm at the level I choose. I want my AC and big screen TV. And if gas ever drops below 3 bucks I'll start driving the Avalanche again. I can drive it now but I just think of what I could do with the money I'm putting in the tank. So I don't use it much. It's like, why put a nice watch on your wrist when that 5 grand could be working for you, ya know.

Invest? Of course I invest in my house it's a large asset and worth protecting. But invest in something just 'cause it's green-- no thanks. Thats just not enough -- it should net me a return on my money.

But I'm looking at buying some land in NC-- I want to build a house on 15 or 20 acres and I think it would be nice if I could anticipate some trends in off grid power. Solar , fuel cells, geothermal and wind. That sorta stuff.

[sakabatou]

72. No flat screen or AC

I have a small "tube" tv and fans.

[YellowRubberDuckie]

74. Who cares what people think of you?

You pay for the AC. You can use it. If I overheat, I get extremely ill. And Oklahoma is one place that is easy to overheat in. I hate the judgmental people like that. But we also don't use a lot of extra lighting.
Duckie

[Fox Mulder]

75. God forbid if you use an air conditioning...

instead of sweltering in 110+ degree heat.

:eyes:

You know, I love this planet too and I want to save it, but I'd rather be damned to hell before I give up my AC.

[suston96]

76. Maybe someone already posted this.......

http://reviews.cnet.com/4520-6475_7-6400401-2.html?tag=nav

Google is our friend.