I don't know....Am I the only one who doesn't like the idea of staying in Afghanistan?

[Just-plain-Kathy]

Obama's talk about staying, rebuilding, and adding troops, makes me fell like we're going to continue fighting a war in the Middle East.

I personally feel 9-11 was the work of Bushco, but setting that conspiracy theory aside, we were attacked on 9-11 by a group of men not a nation' s government. To me, occupying Afghanistan is just as crazy as our takeover of Iraq.

What do you think we should do?

[thewiseguy]

1. By "Nation Resources" you mean opium?

[Just-plain-Kathy]

2. Yeah. n/t

[cliffordu]

3. Yep - they have a monopoly on it now _ I read they produce 95% of the

world's heroin....

Another success in the war on drugs.

[Pirate Smile]

4. Does your third option include the fact that the terrorists are near Afghanistan, in Pakistan?

[Just-plain-Kathy]

6. If the terrorists are in Pakistan, should I have added a fourth option....

....Shouldn't we be attacking Pakistan?

[mrreowwr_kittty]

5. Depends on what we're doing there.

Are we going to get the Taliban extremists under control, and help to rebuild the country? Or are we setting up another situation where contractors do their usual Smash-n-Grab, while the country descends into chaos?

[soothsayer]

25. Pretty sure it's the latter.

[uppityperson]

76. If it is for your first sentence, yes. Stay.

If it is for the second, fuck. It has turned into the second. I truly wish that they had had a cohesive plan to do the first.

[liberalmuse]

7. I've always been against this war, when most Americans were for it.

I thought it would be better for our government to hunt down and capture bin Laden and the Taliban and bring them before a world court, charging them with crimes against humanity. I do think in this case, if found guilty, then they should've been executed. I don't support the death penalty except for war criminals and terrorists with a body count.

Bush chose not to even try to get bin Laden for whatever reason, which we see has been a HUGE mistake. I just don't see why we had to inflict so much suffering on the people of Afghanistan by bombing the crap out of them. They'd already been through enough when the Russians invaded and dropped mustard gas on them. It's too late now. Bin Laden is god only knows where and his followers have regrouped and gotten stronger, thanks solely to the Bush administration.

[polmaven]

27. But much of the government

were Taliban, and, since we did not "keep our eyes on the prize", so to speak, Taliban is again exerting influence over the government in Afghanistan. We cannot allow that to happen, for many reasons.

[knitter4democracy]

47. Me too. I figured it would be just like the Soviet war there.

And I was right. Same damn thing.

[Dbdmjs1022]

8. I support military efforts to go where the terrorists are.

And I believe that it's the responsibility of the next president to clean up the mess that BushCo left, including Afghanistan. That doesn't mean we have to stay forever, but we do need to get the area settled and remove Taliban and Al-Queda influences. Which could have been done years ago if * hadn't sent us into Iraq.

[seriousstan]

10. So you support going into Pakistan? That is where Osama is.

[Freddie Stubbs]

75. How do you know where he is?

:shrug:

[Just-plain-Kathy]

13. Maybe I'm wrong, but doesn't the Taliban and Al-Queda hate us because we're...

...occupying their territory? If we had a new leader like Obama, who wanted to mend fences, who would promise to let them lead their own lives, and let them keep their oil, maybe that would bring peace.

Maybe I'm naive, but I wish we would just hold Bushco accountable and then beg the world for forgiveness.

[dkf]

14. Bin Laden hated that we were in Saudi Arabia, holy land to Muslims.

[27inCali]

21. FUCKING BINGO, DUDE

RIGHT ON THE HEAD.

[seriousstan]

9. Whatever Obama says.

[Skittles]

11. that's a joke, right?

please say it's a joke

[Blue_In_AK]

12. Afghanistan is a dangerous place to get bogged down.

Ask the Soviet Union -- oh, wait! There IS no Soviet Union. They learned that lesson the hard way -- the US will, too.

[dkf]

15. I can't believe so many DUers are supporting Opium as a crop.

Are we serious here?

Then I guess we should tell Colombia that we are perfectly fine with coca plants?

These are the times I realize I'm more moderate than I think.

[Just-plain-Kathy]

17. Sometimes I think our government wants to stop the growth of opium and marajana...

...because these naturally grown pain killers would cut into big pharmaceutics's bottom line.

[bread_and_roses]

23. And I can't believe anyone still thinks dropping bombs and defoliants on poor villagers

is defensible - killing children, destroying the environment, propping up Dictators around the world, imprisoning more people than anyone else in the world and justifying violating civil liberties here at home, all at enormous expense to taxpayers. That's the "Drug War" and there is nothing "moderate" about it.

[dkf]

31. But this poll encourages Afghanistan to support itself by growing opium.

Do you support that?

It is one thing to be as aggressive as spraying defoliants, etc. and another to tell other countries to support their economies through the drug trade.

[Just-plain-Kathy]

39. I wanted this poll to prove that most democrats want our troops home.

I wanted to start a conversation that would get people to start pressuring Obama to stop talking as if he's going to continue nation building in the Middle East.

I don't think we as a nation have the right to tell another nation what they can and can not produce. We would be much safer if we started minding our own business.

As much as I would like us to be the heroes of the world, we can't afford it anymore.

[uppityperson]

77. Other. Of course I want troops home, but I want them to have a goal in Afghanistan

to stabilize the country NOT Talibanish, and to work towards that. I would have no issue with military staying there to do that, but not to flail around like they have been made to do.

Let the Taliban back into ruling power, let them continue Opium trade, let it descend back into their historical (except for Taliban times) chaos? no. I would like to see troops still there, the UN perhaps more broadly involved as I think Afghanistan is salvagable.

Back to opium crops and female degradation? No.

[bread_and_roses]

51. However Afghani's support themselves, growing opium does not justify

invasion, bombing, etc. Besides, to even use the word "decide" for people in Third World countries who are mostly simply trying to survive is meaningless.
edit: sp

[Marrah_G]

88. The opium is not used to support Afgahni's

It is used to support the Taliban and to buy their weapons. The people do not choose to grow it. They are forced to grow it and to sell it to the Taliban for very little money.

[High Plains]

91. That's a simplistic picture.

ALL SIDES are making money off opium. The Taliban, the peasants, the governors, the warlords, Karzai's brother, trafficking organizations, guards, merchants. It is perhaps half the country's GDP.

Some farmers are taxed by the Taliban, and as the Taliban manages to expand, it also profits from protecting the traffic.

Although I will not fall into conspiracy land and argue that it's a CIA plot.

Almost as simplistic as assuming the Taliban are the only social or political force in Afghanistan standing in the way of equal rights for women. Read what RAWA has to say. I posted it below.

[Marrah_G]

99. I wish you well.

[Lyric]

111. I support it.

Opium is a necessary plant for producing even *legal* painkillers, like morphine and codeine. Besides, heroin isn't illegal *everywhere*. Just because it's illegal HERE, doesn't mean that we have the right to tell another country what they can and cannot make legal/grow/sell to whoever else they want to.

It's an issue of national sovereignty.

[Fumesucker]

24. What *exactly* is so bad about opium?

It's remarkably educational to research the long term health effects of opiate addiction versus alcohol addiction.

[dkf]

32. Ask China.

[wuushew]

106. The problem with the Opium-Wars wasn't the opium per say

China because of various trade restrictions it enacted was running a very favorable balance of trade vis-a-vis Great Britain. Opium therefore was smuggled by the British into China in order to redress their hemorrhaging of silver currency.

The first Opium War began after what resembled a Chinese Boston Tea party occurred, except China unlike Amerika lost the war and was humiliated.


As people of the 21st century who should we have rooted for? The imperialistic and violent British who used guns to avenge loss of material goods or the moralistic anti-drug Chinese who like modern Asians seem to have also promoted asymmetrical trade? :shrug:

[provis99]

16. the war in Afghanistan has been lost

so there's really no point in being there. There's no central government, no civic responsibility, the country has no economy, no infrastructure, and no border controls. If we leave, the regional warlords and tribal leaders will assert power over their own areas, and keep both al-Qaeda and the Taliban out.

[uppityperson]

78. Do you seriously believe the Taliban isn't coming back?

You seriously believe they don't have the power and means to take it over again?

[ConsAreLiars]

18. Going after the Wahabi murderers led by bin Laden is one thing; attempting to dominate Afghanistan

by mass murder, overwhelming firepower, unlimited brutality, pain compliance and general viciousness is something quite different, and is an utterly doomed strategy and goal.

The invasion and attempted occupation of Afghanistan was as insane and ignorant as the attempt to do the same with Iraq. Even more so. If the agenda was not occupation, it would have been EASY to get the Taliban to accept either turning over the bin Laden gang of foreigners to some third party or standing by and, as an aggrieved party whose "tribe" members had been murdered, and with the rights and duties that implies, letting US militia and special ops gangs go in an kill every one of them. The latter probably would have been regarded as the most admirable and honorable action.

Anyone (hey Dems) who cannot distinguish between the Al Qaeda gang and the Taliban and believes that simply adding more killers to the invasion/occupation forces will do anything but cause more suffering is totally ignorant of the reality of Afghanistan, or too stupid or cowardly to care about reality, or too vicious and greedy to care about how many get murdered in failed attempt at plunder.

(edit to add) See http://www.lukepowell.com/ and read the captions carefully if you want at least a half a clue about what the word "Afghanistan" refers to.

[ForrestGump]

19. No.

I wouldn't want to stay there, either.






I'd rather be in Philadelphia...actually, that's kind of a toss-up.

[old mark]

20. Kill Osama and his friends, then come home.

We are in the same trap in Afghanistan as the British and the Russians were - you can waste lives and money as much as you want, and end up making no difference at all.

Sounds a lot like Vietnam, no?

mark

[soothsayer]

22. I'm still mad at the Taliban about the Bamiyan Buddhas. But Buddha wouldn't want

to punish them for that, or for how horrid the strict version of their religion is that they violently foist on others. (For instance, I don't like their interpretation of Islam where women are second class citizens, for instance----that's a bastardized interpretation of the Koran, many would say, which had women as the equals we are). But do we kill people over that? We're friends with China, and they've got plenty of human rights issues, so we prolly shouldn't be in Afghanistan securing Cheney's pipeline or whatever we were/are really doing there.

[Marrah_G]

30. It goes way beyond thinking women are second class citizens

They are barely classified as human. Here is a partial list of their rules.

http://www.rawa.org/women.php

Taliban restrictions and mistreatment of women include the (think of how it must be for a woman with no mahram as you read this, there are no exceptions made for them):

1- Complete ban on women's work outside the home, which also applies to female teachers, engineers and most professionals. Only a few female doctors and nurses are allowed to work in some hospitals in Kabul.

2- Complete ban on women's activity outside the home unless accompanied by a mahram (close male relative such as a father, brother or husband).

3- Ban on women dealing with male shopkeepers.

4- Ban on women being treated by male doctors.

5- Ban on women studying at schools, universities or any other educational institution. (Taliban have converted girls' schools into religious seminaries.)

6- Requirement that women wear a long veil (Burqa), which covers them from head to toe.

7- Whipping, beating and verbal abuse of women not clothed in accordance with Taliban rules, or of women unaccompanied by a mahram.

8- Whipping of women in public for having non-covered ankles.

9- Public stoning of women accused of having sex outside marriage. (A number of lovers are stoned to death under this rule).

10- Ban on the use of cosmetics. (Many women with painted nails have had fingers cut off).

11- Ban on women talking or shaking hands with non-mahram males.

12- Ban on women laughing loudly. (No stranger should hear a woman's voice).

13- Ban on women wearing high heel shoes, which would produce sound while walking. (A man must not hear a woman's footsteps.)

14- Ban on women riding in a taxi without a mahram.

15- Ban on women's presence in radio, television or public gatherings of any kind.

16- Ban on women playing sports or entering a sport center or club.

17- Ban on women riding bicycles or motorcycles, even with their mahrams.

18- Ban on women's wearing brightly colored clothes. In Taliban terms, these are "sexually attracting colors."

19- Ban on women gathering for festive occasions such as the Eids, or for any recreational purpose.

20- Ban on women washing clothes next to rivers or in a public place.

21- Modification of all place names including the word "women." For example, "women's garden" has been renamed "spring garden".

22- Ban on women appearing on the balconies of their apartments or houses.

23- Compulsory painting of all windows, so women can not be seen from outside their homes.

24- Ban on male tailors taking women's measurements or sewing women's clothes.

25- Ban on female public baths.

26- Ban on males and females traveling on the same bus. Public buses have now been designated "males only" (or "females only").

27- Ban on flared (wide) pant-legs, even under a burqa.

28- Ban on the photographing or filming of women.

29- Ban on women's pictures printed in newspapers and books, or hung on the walls of houses and shops.

Apart from the above restrictions on women, the Taliban has:

- Banned listening to music, not only for women but men as well.

- Banned the watching of movies, television and videos, for everyone.

- Banned celebrating the traditional new year (Nowroz) on March 21. The Taliban has proclaimed the holiday un-Islamic.

- Disavowed Labor Day (May 1st), because it is deemed a "communist" holiday.

- Ordered that all people with non-Islamic names change them to Islamic ones.

- Forced haircuts upon Afghan youth.

- Ordered that men wear Islamic clothes and a cap.

- Ordered that men not shave or trim their beards, which should grow long enough to protrude from a fist clasped at the point of the chin.

- Ordered that all people attend prayers in mosques five times daily.

- Banned the keeping of pigeons and playing with the birds, describing it as un-Islamic. The violators will be imprisoned and the birds shall be killed. The kite flying has also been stopped.

- Ordered all onlookers, while encouraging the sportsmen, to chant Allah-o-Akbar (God is great) and refrain from clapping.

- Ban on certain games including kite flying which is "un-Islamic" according to Taliban.

- Anyone who carries objectionable literature will be executed.

- Anyone who converts from Islam to any other religion will be executed.

- All boy students must wear turbans. They say "No turban, no education".

- Non-Muslim minorities must distinct badge or stitch a yellow cloth onto their dress to be differentiated from the majority Muslim population. Just like what did Nazis with Jews.

- Banned the use of the internet by both ordinary Afghans and foreigners.

[readmoreoften]

53. If you think we're in Afghanistan because of women, you're insane.

So where do we go next in the name of liberating women from shariah law by troops? Iran, Saudia Arabia, Oman, Dubai, Yemen... Our boys are going to hafta kill a lot of women and kids to liberate those women and kids.

[Marrah_G]

58. We didn't go in there because of them, but we are there now.

Why not help the government there make things better instead of handing them back over to the Taliban? Do you not think an Obama administration can do a better job then Bush? I do.

[uppityperson]

80. Me too, thank you Marrah for that list.

[Marrah_G]

101. dont thank me

I give up anyway. This is not the place to discuss womens issues.

[countryjake]

90. It goes way beyond fantasy, thinking that US Imperialism helps any women, anywhere...

Our interventions into the affairs of Afghanistan have only served as major setbacks for the women there, for decades now. This new plan to increase troop levels and add to the carnage is ruling-class speak for "spread capitalism" at any and all costs. In no way would amping-up this aggressive takeover of yet another sovereign nation make conditions "better" for those women struggling for long-overdue rights.

Dream on, if you actually believe that Sen. Obama or anyone else who might win the White House this fall would do anything that might interfere with our own country's economic interests. Do you honestly believe that we are occupying Afghanistan to provide support to women seeking freedom? Or that our invasion and occupation has helped their cause, at all?

The USA and their minions, NATO, and everyone else who assumes that they have a "better plan" for Afghanistan, need to get their damned armed forces, bombs, missiles, and weapons of mass devastation out of there, NOW! If only for the women who suffer because of our interference!

[Marrah_G]

100. You're right- fuck em. They are halfway around the world anyway

Who cares.

Let them stone each other to death, it's their culture. If they want to treat women like shit that's fine... I just won't visit there.

You are right, the best thing to do is to leave them alone. I am sure the Taliban will have no trouble repairing the country and restoring law and order.

Besides I need to worry more about how to heat my house this winter.

[countryjake]

102. Fuck the Northern Alliance, all puppets of the USA, the Taliban, & all fundamentalist gangs!

You seem to forget who handed the Taliban their "power" in the first place. Have you any idea of the extent to which our own government has gone to "assume" control over the vital land-routes that criss-cross Central Asia?

Do you think that "defending" Karzai’s corruption and cementing his role as "elected" leader of Afghanistan will do even a thimble-full of good for progressive women in that nation? You are the one who wishes more of the same...oppression, subjugation, death, and devastation to the women who fight for their rights against mountainous obstacles.

I support the overthrow of the criminals of the Northern Alliance, the influence of the US armed forces who have entire bases dedicated to training "death squads" with which to accomplish their "goals", and any fundamentalist goon gang who sees this as the "fight" of their lives BECAUSE of American interference and our long-time Imperialist ambition.

You are wrong to assume that people who long for US forces to be driven out don't care about conditions there. It is because I care that I want the USA to get their blood-soaked, dirty fingers out of Afghanistan, all of Southern and Central Asia, and the entire Middle East.

The "War On Terror" is real but the terrorists are US!

[uppityperson]

103. wtf?

"Do you think that "defending" Karzai’s corruption and cementing his role as "elected" leader of Afghanistan will do even a thimble-full of good for progressive women in that nation? You are the one who wishes more of the same...oppression, subjugation, death, and devastation to the women who fight for their rights against mountainous obstacles."

All women, not just "progressive women", unless you mean women who want the rights back they had pre-taliban, if not more. Who wishes more of the same oppression?

"You are wrong to assume that people who long for US forces to be driven out don't care about conditions there. It is because I care that I want the USA to get their blood-soaked, dirty fingers out of Afghanistan, all of Southern and Central Asia, and the entire Middle East."

You care enough to want to hand the women back to the Taliban. Got it. Because that will be better than....what?

[countryjake]

104. The USA is in no position to "hand" anyone back to anybody!

And I fully support the position of the Revolutionary Association of the Women of Afghanistan which is that the USA and its fundamentalist stooges are the main human rights violators in Afghanistan.

http://www.rawa.org/events/dec10-07_e.htm

Foreign invaders are not very conducive to peace, especially when their actions only compound and intensify the problem and their motives (as proven by those actions, for, literally, decades) are questionable.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2001/oct/23/afghanistan.terrorism8



To answer your question:

"All women, not just "progressive women", unless you mean women who want the rights back they had pre-taliban, if not more. Who wishes more of the same oppression?"

The person who I was responding to above, who seems to think that support for our Occupation of Afghanistan (ie. increasing armed forces there and concentrating "the War On Terror" into the effort to dominate Central Asia) somehow translates into support of the fight of the Afghan women. It does not.



(edited to add links)

[uppityperson]

105. If they just up and leave, yes, they hand it back to the Taliban.

They USA IS in the position to do that. Just pulling out effectively hands Afghanistan back to them.

I agree, just supporting the "War on Terror (tm)" does little for the women. It will take a whole lot of work by a whole lot of countries to make possible any lasting change. Getting rid of the Taliban is only one step in the process.

[countryjake]

109. Now I think I understand why your avatar states that "War is Peace"...

I do not support the furthering of any wars that our country has pretended are so direly necessary, be it war against religious extremists or war against nations who will not "comply" with our established "foreign policy".

It is our military industrial conglomerates who determine what those "policies" might be, and has nothing whatsoever to do with bringing any sort of freedom (for men or women) or democracy (to neither secular independent-minded nations or sharply religion-influenced ones).

When I listen to Afghan women speak of the horrors of this US occupation, as compared to the threat of the current American-backed Sharia Law imposing government and the lurking Taliban, I believe them, over any candidate stumping for president in this country.

I fear for the people of Afghanistan because of my government's new whisperings of the need to "focus" on this already-devastated nation, and my wish is that the war-mongering politicians (all of them, regardless of which "party" they claim to represent or which country they may pretend to stand for) suffer such utter defeat, that common ordinary folk can get back to the task of making their everyday lives better. Now that will take a whole lotta work by the people, (not the countries' governments) but the USA has had its ass handed back to it before, so I put my money on the righteously angry and war-weary citizens of the World, who have as little use for American Imperialism as they do for religious fanatics.

I've lived long enough to recognize that when the US creates a boogeyman, it means only one thing...money in someone's pockets. And I'll not fall for it, ever again.

[uppityperson]

112. I guess you haven't read "1984" then since you miss the reference. Or were impatient and didn't see

the whole thing.

When I listen to Afghan women speak of horrors of life under the Taliban, as compared to what has happened in last few yrs, and how it could be, I believe them. And no, I don't listen to the candidates speechifying on Afghanistan since I am voting against the repubs no matter what.

I can discuss things with other people in person, or on a forum, that are not what any candidate says, but what I wish, how I wish the world would be. Humane.

Good luck to you.

[countryjake]

114. Well then, I'd say your "War is Peace" thingy equates nicely to the situation in Central Asia...

its been many long years now that the people of Afghanistan have been struggling, merely to survive, due to horrific conflicts that our own government has had a hand in, so how is any further escalation of our "War on Terror", focused there, going to contribute positively to such desperate conditions?

Do you believe that this American Occupation has fueled sympathy for those religious extremists we've supposedly been fighting or do you think that all of the bombings our military have launched and civilians deaths (many of them deemed "mistaken targets", by the way) that pro-West forces are responsible for, have succeeded in turning opinions in favor of the ideals that most of us uphold?

I simply don't believe that anyone in our government (or potential leaders and candidates) care whether or not Afghanistan is freed from the rule of fundamentalists and that is demonstrated to me by our backing of snakes such as Hamid Karzai (the "oil man") and the warlords of the Northern Alliance, who embrace Sharia Law and hold women as inferior in much the same way as the Taliban. Our leaders condemn one set of fanatics, yet embrace others. How, in the long run, will that do anything to break the chains that bind Afghan women?

Nope, increasing the aggression and murderous combat by adding more troops and concentrating the "War on Terror" eastward...this "re-deployment" everyone speaks of now, is more of the same meme..."War is Peace". And it can only add to the tremendous hardship that the people of Afghanistan already face. I long for the rise of Humanity in this world, too, but I certainly don't see that occurring with the influx of 10,000 or 15,000 armed forces (depending on which candidate is stumping) and bringing even more military devastation to the nightmare most Afghans live with, daily.


Have you read this (or did you look at those other links that I'd posted):

http://www.commondreams.org/archive/2008/07/15/10389/

The Pentagon paradigm is to defeat Al Qaeda militarily while refusing to address, and thereby worsening, the dire conditions that gave rise to the Taliban and Al Qaeda operatives in the first place. In careful prose based on reputable sources, Ahmed Rashid’s new Descent into Chaos (Viking, 2008) provides a horrific portrait of Afghanistan:

• It is estimated by RAND that $100 per capita is the minimum required to stabilize a country evolving out of war. Bosnia received $679 per capita, Kosovo $526, while Afghanistan received $57 per capita in the key years, 2001-2003.

• When the United States installed the Hamid Karzai government, Afghanistan ranked 172nd out of 178 nations on the United Nation’s Human Development Index. It has the highest rate of infant mortality in the world, a life expectancy rate of 44-45 years, and the youngest population of any country. In 2005, 95 percent of Kabul’s residents were living without electrical power.

• Seven hundred civilians were killed in the first five months of 2008 alone, according to the United Nations.

• Despite some gains in media and currency reform, plus a modest increase in the number of children in school, this was the path of least reconstruction. And despite images of Afghan democracy that made loya jirga tribal gatherings appear to be the birth of participatory democracy, a warlord state was entrenched by the CIA.

There are some 36,000 US troops stretched across Afghanistan, another 17,500 under NATO command, and 18,000 in counterinsurgency and training roles. They are so aggressively combat-oriented that the Afghan government itself continually objects to the rate of civilian casualties. It costs the Pentagon $2 billion per month to support 30,000 American troops. According to Rashid, “Afghanistan is not going to be able to pay for its own army for many years to come–perhaps never.”

As of 2006, Afghanistan’s economy still rested on producing 90 percent of the world’s opium, an eerie narco-state parallel with the US counterinsurgency in Colombia, where most of America’s supply of cocaine originates.

Afghanistan is an unstable police state. By 2005, the Afghan Independent Human Rights Commission cited 800 cases of detainee abuse at some thirty US firebases. “The CIA operates its own secret detention centers, which were off limits to the US military.” Ghost prisoners, known as Persons Under Control are held permanently without any public records of their existence. Warlords operate their own prisons with “unprecedented abuse, torture, and death of Taliban prisoners.” And as the US lowered the number of prisoners at Guantánamo, it increased the numbers held at Bagram, near Kabul. As of January, 2008, there were 630 incarcerated at Bagram, “including some who had been there for five years and whom the ICRC had still not been given access to.” After weeks of hunger strikes about detention conditions, the Taliban recently orchestrated a jailbreak of hundreds of Afghanis from the Kandahar prison, an inside job.

[uppityperson]

116. I'm not talking about escalating "War on Terror (tm)". Perhaps you missed that.

Here, I'll copy paste from my 2 replies in this subthread so you don't have to expand all messages:

I can discuss things with other people in person, or on a forum, that are not what any candidate says, but what I wish, how I wish the world would be. Humane.

I agree, just supporting the "War on Terror (tm)" does little for the women. It will take a whole lot of work by a whole lot of countries to make possible any lasting change. Getting rid of the Taliban is only one step in the process.
----------------
"How, in the long run, will that do anything to break the chains that bind Afghan women?" Breaking those chains would take a lot of work, from a lot of countries. If the UN were a functioning body, they would need to get involved. Health care, employment, basics of food/water/shelter, all need to be addressed. I am talking about a bigger picture than the "War on Terror (tm)". I am NOT talking about increasing the "War on Terror (tm)" but musing about truly helping.

[countryjake]

117. Sorry, I thought that you'd agreed with Marrah_G...

(further up this sub-thread) in which she hopes that Obama's tack (his statements on transferring the "War On Terror" over to concentrations in Afghanistan and Pakistan) might actually do some good for the women of the area, by defeating the Taliban.

[uppityperson]

119. I do agree with Marrah often and in some ways.

This one I agree with "Why not help the government there make things better instead of handing them back over to the Taliban? Do you not think an Obama administration can do a better job then Bush? I do." I do think Obama would do better than bush, and would like to see things be made better rather than just handing it back to the Taliban, but it would take lots of countries lots of work and money and people in lots of ways.

I am going further and looking at broader than "War on Terror (tm)". I wish I could figure out how to do (TM) in the true trademark tiny letter thing. "War on Terror (tm)" is a bunch of crap.

[shadowknows69]

26. We need to rethink the whole war on terror thing

We can't win it by occupying countries for years. We need to beef up Special Forces and think outside the box. The war on terror should be fought by ten shadowy guys that go around cutting the heads off the hydras by means stealthy and discreet.

[Philosoraptor]

28. I'm sick of hearing the occupation of Afghanistan referred to as JUST.

It ain't. I want our people home. Afghanistan didn't attack us.

[Marrah_G]

29. what happens to the women ther when we do?

Since the Taliban have more income (drug money) and more fire-power they will easily over-power the government. If this happens (and it will) then you are saying you are okay with the women being forced back into a live of enslavement where they are treated worse then and have less value then most livestock.

http://www.rawa.org/rules.htm

Taliban restrictions and mistreatment of women include the:

1- Complete ban on women's work outside the home, which also applies to female teachers, engineers and most professionals. Only a few female doctors and nurses are allowed to work in some hospitals in Kabul.

2- Complete ban on women's activity outside the home unless accompanied by a mahram (close male relative such as a father, brother or husband).

3- Ban on women dealing with male shopkeepers.

4- Ban on women being treated by male doctors.

5- Ban on women studying at schools, universities or any other educational institution. (Taliban have converted girls' schools into religious seminaries.)

6- Requirement that women wear a long veil (Burqa), which covers them from head to toe.

7- Whipping, beating and verbal abuse of women not clothed in accordance with Taliban rules, or of women unaccompanied by a mahram.

8- Whipping of women in public for having non-covered ankles.

9- Public stoning of women accused of having sex outside marriage. (A number of lovers are stoned to death under this rule).

10- Ban on the use of cosmetics. (Many women with painted nails have had fingers cut off).

11- Ban on women talking or shaking hands with non-mahram males.

12- Ban on women laughing loudly. (No stranger should hear a woman's voice).

13- Ban on women wearing high heel shoes, which would produce sound while walking. (A man must not hear a woman's footsteps.)

14- Ban on women riding in a taxi without a mahram.

15- Ban on women's presence in radio, television or public gatherings of any kind.

16- Ban on women playing sports or entering a sport center or club.

17- Ban on women riding bicycles or motorcycles, even with their mahrams.

18- Ban on women's wearing brightly colored clothes. In Taliban terms, these are "sexually attracting colors."

19- Ban on women gathering for festive occasions such as the Eids, or for any recreational purpose.

20- Ban on women washing clothes next to rivers or in a public place.

21- Modification of all place names including the word "women." For example, "women's garden" has been renamed "spring garden".

22- Ban on women appearing on the balconies of their apartments or houses.

23- Compulsory painting of all windows, so women can not be seen from outside their homes.

24- Ban on male tailors taking women's measurements or sewing women's clothes.

25- Ban on female public baths.

26- Ban on males and females traveling on the same bus. Public buses have now been designated "males only" (or "females only").

27- Ban on flared (wide) pant-legs, even under a burqa.

28- Ban on the photographing or filming of women.

29- Ban on women's pictures printed in newspapers and books, or hung on the walls of houses and shops.

Apart from the above restrictions on women, the Taliban has:

- Banned listening to music, not only for women but men as well.

- Banned the watching of movies, television and videos, for everyone.

- Banned celebrating the traditional new year (Nowroz) on March 21. The Taliban has proclaimed the holiday un-Islamic.

- Disavowed Labor Day (May 1st), because it is deemed a "communist" holiday.

- Ordered that all people with non-Islamic names change them to Islamic ones.

- Forced haircuts upon Afghan youth.

- Ordered that men wear Islamic clothes and a cap.

- Ordered that men not shave or trim their beards, which should grow long enough to protrude from a fist clasped at the point of the chin.

- Ordered that all people attend prayers in mosques five times daily.

- Banned the keeping of pigeons and playing with the birds, describing it as un-Islamic. The violators will be imprisoned and the birds shall be killed. The kite flying has also been stopped.

- Ordered all onlookers, while encouraging the sportsmen, to chant Allah-o-Akbar (God is great) and refrain from clapping.

- Ban on certain games including kite flying which is "un-Islamic" according to Taliban.

- Anyone who carries objectionable literature will be executed.

- Anyone who converts from Islam to any other religion will be executed.

- All boy students must wear turbans. They say "No turban, no education".

- Non-Muslim minorities must distinct badge or stitch a yellow cloth onto their dress to be differentiated from the majority Muslim population. Just like what did Nazis with Jews.

- Banned the use of the internet by both ordinary Afghans and foreigners.

[iamthebandfanman]

33. sorry, even tho i think 9/11

was an inside job

i think its our mess to clean up.

we're the ones responsible for the taliban and radical rule.

[mmonk]

34. Afghanistan is much more complicated than Iraq.

The darkness we and the Pakistanis created there is dangerous. We created a problem there that has greater consequences than just a greed driven failure.

[blindpig]

35. Bring them all home.

Bring them home from Iraq, Afghanistan, Germany, Korea, Diego Garcia, Columbia, Guam & so forth & so on.

Overseas deployments and bases make us less safe rather than more safe.

Worried about oil? The Pentagon uses 40% of US consumption.

Worried about the budget? The Pentagon consumes 50% of it.

This is not about pacifism, this is about anti-imperialism.

The US could defend it's citizens with 10% of the current military budget. The rest is profiteering, graft and the racist assumption that 'we know better' than those hapless dark skinned folks.

[Marrah_G]

37. What happens to the women in Afgahnistan if we just leave.

We need to make the country secure enough so that the government doesn't get ousted by the Taliban and their drug profit purchased arms the moment we leave.

I think we need more troops from a wider variety of countries to put these monsters out of control for good.

To do otherwise is to condemn the women to a life worse then slavery for the SECOND time due to our governments actions. Obama will have a chance to fix this mess.

[blindpig]

38. Leave it to the UN

Our presence does nothing but recruit Taliban and others who would resist occupation. The Afghans are funny like that, and have the track record to back it up.

It's spilt milk, but too bad that we destroyed the socialist regime under which women had equal rights.

So when do we invade Saudi Arabia?

[Marrah_G]

40. Nato and the US are not in Saudi Arabia so that is a strawman

We are however in Afgahnistan and one the idiot-in-chief is out of office we have the opportunity to fix what our government helped to create there. We supported the Taliban, our weapons and training put them in power. We have an opportunity to right that wrong and save the women from a life of slavery.

Your post is like many that I find disturbing. The tone is one of "it's not our problem, it's their culture, it's only women so it isn't our place to say"

We are there now. In 6 months we have an opportunity to fix it. Obama is obviously wanting to do this. We should stay in and give it a real try. Secure the country, REALLY help them rebuild and give their government an opportunity to govern without the threat of an over-armed, zealotous, drug funded bunch of nutjobs ready to oust them the moment we leave.

[blindpig]

50. Nonsense

You're so concerned about women's rights, justifying war for that cause, it's the obvious thing.

And how may civilians have we killed, and how many more will be? Ah, it's only collateral damage.

And might I remind you that women's rights are not our stated purpose for being there. And will likely not figure greatly in whatever sort of government that our quislings devise. In the end they have no choice but to play to the home crowd.

Now, if the opposition to the Taliban were socialist I might give your concerns more consideration.

[Marrah_G]

56. I don't care if that was not the reason we went in. We are there now.

There is something between socialist and the taliban on the scope of things. I'm not sure you realize just how bad it is for women under the taliban. It is beyond being treated as second class citizens. It means being treated worse then animals.

Under the Taliban women are not allowed to be seen by male doctors. But also under the Taliban women doctors are not allowed to work. Women cannot leave the house without a husband, father, brother accompanying them, if they don't have one they are still not allowed out. So they die quietly, behind painted windows.

Whether or not you give my reasons any consideration doesn't matter to me one bit.

[blindpig]

61. So, you think that the gang of warlords who are the Afghan

government are that much better? Maybe, marginally, dependent upon the individual. But is this marginal difference worth subjecting them to a war in which American munitions kill and injure civilians as regular as clockwork?

Ain't nobody defending or endorsing the Taliban, just pointing out that the alternative ain't much of an alternative, especially given the cost.

Your emotion laden neo-liberal reasoning carries no water and is merely an excuse for intervention and imperialism.

[Marrah_G]

66. I wish you well

[ieoeja]

60. See post #59 on the difference why Afghanistan and not Saudi. n/t

[blindpig]

64. Well,

that was under a socialist government, you'll not get that sort of thing from the gang that is supposedly in charge now.

Gee, I wonder if Obama will bring back the socialists?:shrug: :eyes:

[ieoeja]

69. But it was also more open BEFORE the communist coup.

We should have restored the monarchy. The king had actually initiated Democratic reforms. And he had a lot of support. He could probably have restored Afghanistan to it's pre-communist era which would have been just fine.

I don't know if he offered after the communist gov't was voted out. But he did offer post-911.

Unfortunately, I believe he has since died. And I do not know if his heir may be a possibility or not. I used to read news out of Afghanistan almost weekly prior to 9-11. Virtually nothing since then which is really the opposite of what you would think. Wish I could recall the reporter who was writing those articles. I wonder if he got killed somewhere along the line.

[blindpig]

70. For a couple years, maybe

1964 to 1969. After that the business and tribal reactionaries took over. The commies supported women's rights as a matter of principle.

Monarchy, please. What's so democratic about that?

[knitter4democracy]

48. What's happening to them now?

Burqas are back, women are getting murdered, and women's rights groups are constantly under attack. Whether we're there or not, there doesn't seem to be much difference anymore.

[Marrah_G]

49. Because the Taliban are making a comeback

Part of the country is already back under their control. The rest is worried that the world will leave, the Taliban will take over and if they stay in the burqa the consequences won't be so bad when they do. They live in constant fear that will not change until the extremists are told "enough"

[readmoreoften]

54. Right, they were much better under the warlords we supported who raped and kidnapped them.

We're not there for women. We're not helping women. Even the women over there have said that repeatedly.

[Marrah_G]

57. So you don't think Obama can help fix things, get the world to help as well?

You would rather not even to try and fix the mess we have made and leave the people to suffer because of those mistakes.

[blindpig]

62. He ain't gonna fix anything

unless it is in the interests of the ruling class.

And btw, it's not about mistakes or incompetence, everything is pretty much the way the Man likes it.

[Marrah_G]

65. Well then we really have nothing more to say

We see things from completely different points of view. I don't agree with your, but I respect you for actually having one.

The beauty of having a b ig tent is having many different voices.

[High Plains]

74. Here's what RAWA says about US help:

http://www.rawa.org/events/dec10-07_e.htm

"The US and her allies tried to legitimize their military occupation of Afghanistan under the banner of “bringing freedom and democracy for Afghan people”. But as we have experienced in the past three decades, in regard to the fate of our people, the US government first of all considers her own political and economic interests and has empowered and equipped the most traitorous, anti-democratic, misogynist and corrupt fundamentalist gangs in Afghanistan."

<snip>

You might not want to be using their web site to justify further military intervention.

[Marrah_G]

81. I am not "using their website to justify" anything

I have and will continue to use their website to point out reasons why and how I have come to MY OWN opinions.

We are going to be there when Obama takes office. You want to walk away and leave them to the mercy (or more like lack there of) Taliban. I am in favor of Obama finding a better way to help the people stand up and take their country back from EVERYONE.

They cannot do that if the Taliban are the ones with all the fucking weapons. How hard is that to understand.

There needs to be economic and diplomatic help as well.

I think Obama might actually be able to accomplish those and help to save that country and it's people.

YOUR way leaves nothing except a return to the hell of the Taliban.

I believe the women would like an option other then the Taliban or the massive failure of the Bush Regime.

In your world Obama would do things exactly the same as Bush. I do not think he will. I believe that the Obama administration would handle things very differently.

But they are just women and girls right? As long as the males are family or countrymen it's just fine.

[High Plains]

93. In my world, Obama will do the exact same thing as McCain.

At least that's what he says he will do: More war in Afghanistan.

The Taliban are not the only ones with weapons. The country is awash in them.

Afghanistan is very fucked up, messy, complicated place. While I understand the liberal impulse to DO SOMETHING!, I also recall that old proverb about the road to hell. If you think defeating the Taliban is going to result in gender equality in Afghanistan, you don't understand that country. That shit is deeply rooted in the culture, and the Taliban are only one manifestation of it.

I would support a revolutionary secular alternative that would drive out both the Taliban and the Western invaders. I bet RAWA thinks something like that, too.

[Marrah_G]

96. You and I are in different realities, and frankly we have been for a long time.

I'm going to end this before it goes any further. I have no intention of fighting over womens rights with you again.

I wish you well.

[knitter4democracy]

71. We never really won, though.

The warlords who were on our side were just as bad. Sure, some women's groups were able to open up girls schools--only to get death threats and bombings.

The only way things will change there is if the people themselves change, not if anyone forces them to. They are a proud people stuggling to survive in difficult territory and decade upon decade of war. We should respect them for surviving and let them find their way. No one will listen to women's rights groups if they're entirely backed by the oppressors, but they might if they continue to speak out after we leave.

[LWolf]

36. Well, I know. And you are not the only one.

It is a bad idea, and I don't support it.

I didn't support going there to begin with, I've never supported the "war on terror," and I'm not going to start because Obama is eager to keep it going.

[rusty fender]

41. I, too, think that Afghanistan is a no-win situation.

A few days ago I replied to a post entitled, "President Obama," that his presidency has already failed if we don't leave Afghanistan ASAP, and a couple of posters jumped down my throat. Most people just don't get it.

[Solly Mack]

42. No. You're not the only one

[spanone]

43. ...and what is our 'mission' in afghanistan?

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

44. "Nation building" has been ever so successful in he past.

Vietnam, Guatemala, Honduras, Nicaragua, Angola, South Africa, El Salvador, Congo, Cambodia, Iraq, and dozens of other countries where we "picked up the White Man's burden" of helping the poor savages learn to appreciate Big Macs and carnage.

[KG]

45. '...thats where the terrorists are'? people here still believe that?

obama's wrong on this. another example of how people are deluded if the think the dem party and obama are somehow going to save this country.

[Johonny]

46. I think you have to stay

So long as there is a multinational effort there. I think the more help we can get to that country the better it will be. The war there is vastly different than what happened in Iraq. Although the same problem exists. We are trying to rebuild a populous that has little education, resources, and national identity.

[rucky]

52. What's the likely scenario if NATO pulls out tomorrow?

My gut says "chaos", but what do I know. It's not like anybody's reporting any news from there.

[Pastiche423]

55. We never should have invaded their land

As I've said before, nary a one of Afghanis was an alleged hijacker. The plans to bomb Afghanistan were on *'s desk months prior to September 11, 2001. The * cabal wanted a pipeline to run through Afghanistan and now they have one.

I disagree w/Obama on quite a number of things and this is one of them.

[ieoeja]

59. I was one of those Liberals clamoring for Clinton to save Afghanistan in the 90s.

The thing about moral relativism is that it is only relative within a closed environment. Saudi Arabian society has been the way it has been for 1400 years. I am all for encouraging/helping any liberal reformers in SA, but it is up to the Saudis to decide to change or not.

In the meantime a woman born and raised in SA is raised within those rules with an infrastructure set up to support her according to those rules.

Not so Afghanistan. One day in Kabul a female doctor got off work, went home to shower and change into her little black mini-dress, then met her female lawyer friend for a night at the discos and, with any luck, to get laid. 24 hours later she was living in a world where it was illegal for her to support herself, but where she had no family to support her, and where she did not know the rules. Even if she could overcome all of that quickly enough, how long could she, raised in an open, liberal society, operate under those conditions without breaking?

In Saudia Arabia they execute a couple hundred women a year. In Iran, a few dozen. In Afghanistan, the Taliban were still executing women by the thousands years after their takeover.

So I am all for helping the Afghans against the Taliban. Not because of 9-11, but because the Taliban truly are monsters in the vein of Stalin, Pol Pot, Mao, Hitler, etc.

[Marrah_G]

67. I'm just starting to read Zoya's Story

There are some amazing first hand accounts of the hell these women have lived in and sometimes managed to escape from.

[NNN0LHI]

79. Don't all those Taliban men have wives and children?

Who is going to support all those Taliban women and children after you get done slaughtering all those mean Taliban men?

And don't you think when the kids grow up they are going to want to exact some vengeance on the people who killed their daddys?

If someone killed your daddy wouldn't you want to pay them back in some violent way?

Don

[Marrah_G]

83. Do you understand what and who the Taliban are?

Do you understand the extent of the horror and enslavement they have pushed violently upon the people of Afghanistan.

People who oppose them Die. People who look at them wrong die. Women who behave as humans die.

They have all the weapons. They rule with a fear you and I have NEVER had to endure.

The majority of the people hate the Taliban, but they fear them even more.

[NNN0LHI]

87. Answer my questions and then I will answer yours

Fair deal?

Don

[uppityperson]

89. OK. Now, your turn.

"Don't all those Taliban men have wives and children?" Not all, no. And some have multiple wives.

"Who is going to support all those Taliban women and children after you get done slaughtering all those mean Taliban men?" Who is saying slaughter all the Taliban men? Afghanis who are not Taliban, including women, and those who chose to live will work and support themselves. Yes, women used to work and support themselves, their families. They can do so again. As can the men who are not Taliban, of whom there are a lot.

"And don't you think when the kids grow up they are going to want to exact some vengeance on the people who killed their daddys?" Again, who is saying slaughter all the Taliban men? Yes, some will be upset, but others will be very happy at not having to live under those Fundamentalist monsters (ok, now you can write me off as "emotional").

"If someone killed your daddy wouldn't you want to pay them back in some violent way?" If my daddy were a psychopath who enslaved all the women and children, who took away all my rights while raping my 12 yr old cousins, no. I wouldn't.

[NNN0LHI]

92. Ok click on this link for your answer

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x3658922

[uppityperson]

98. I agree "his war was not a war for women's liberation; it was a war of revenge"

I also agree that any woman who took off her burqa is risking death when the Taliban returns. I also think that there was a chance to change things there, is still a chance but it has to be more than the USA's "war on terror" bs. Death, bombs, mines, lack of food/water/health care, lack of ability to get educated and/or work, it is a mess there.

The bit in that article about Afghani law being slow to change reminds me of parts of the Old Testament in the bible. Don't leave a head on a spike for 4 days, take it down after 1 can be forward thinking. Being a landlocked, resource and water poor country, between countries which aren't, it is a mess. Yes, there are wonderful things about Afghanistan, and no I don't believe in "a computer in every home" as a necessity, but there was a chance. There is a chance. To do something right for humanity, not to simply act in revenge, which was what Afghanistan was promoted as on the way to Iraq.

Do you disagree with my answers to your questions?

[Marrah_G]

97. Your turn now and a link won't cut it.

[uppityperson]

84. Are you serious or is this well done satire?

Have you read ANYTHING about the Taliban?

Edited to add, just in case you are serious. Most of the women would be pleased to be able to go back to work, as would most of the kids be pleased to go back to school and then work. As most of them cannot do under the Taliban.

[Marrah_G]

86. And it goes so far beyond just work and school

The women are treated worse then animals. Isolated, shut off from the world, never to feel the sun on their face. Windows painted, always covered, even their eyes. No talking to people other then immediate family, no shopping, no bathing.

They are kept in the barn and bred like livestock, beaten, starved and killed in manners they would not treat a goat with. Sold, raped, humiliated.

It is unlike anyone in this country or for that matter, most of the world could ever even imagine.

I never thought that here on DU, condemnation of such actions would be scoffed at. I never thought that on DU I would find people who were content to ignore a problem of such magnitude because it isn't within our borders...

[Marrah_G]

95. Okay

Yes.

They weren't/aren't being "cared for" anyway. They were and are being kept as slaves. The slaveowners in the south used an argument similar to that one also.

Maybe some, but maybe not so many as you would think.

You assume the Taliban have the same sort of relationship with their children. If my father were taliban, being that I was female I would probably not want revenge on his killer since he would have sold me off to some stranger when I was 12 to be beaten and raped, never to be heard from again.

There are your answers.

[uppityperson]

82. Thank you. Kick for this post. Me too. eom

[Imagevision]

63. The Russians lost 50,000+ troops fighting the taliban in Afganistan - (with US. help)

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

68. Afghanistan is as stupid as Iraq.

Obviously.

[spanone]

72. kick and recommend

[Just-plain-Kathy]

73. kicked for more to vote :)

[Xithras]

85. The problem is that Afghanistan's occupation is destabilizing Pakistan.

I still think that the original invasion was just, though the occupation and rebuilding were horribly botched. Our extended presence there is firing up the radicals in Pakistan and may very well destabilize that country too. If we think that keeping a lid on 30-odd million Iraqi's and 30-odd million Afghan's is tough, what are we going to do if Pakistan collapses and it's 150-odd million people find themselves stuck in a warzone with nowhere to flee? India sure as hell isn't going to let a hundred million Pakistani refugees across its border, and Afghanistan is already a hellhole. India has already also stated that it will invade militarily, or even carry out missile strikes, to prevent Pakistan's nukes from falling into the hands of radicals. The threat of missile strikes from a nuclear power has to be taken seriously.

Our continued presence in Afghanistan is pushing that horror closer to a reality. I do support keeping Karzai's government in power (they were fairly elected), but we should be doing so through financial and military aid, not by putting troops on the ground. Give them the resources they need to protect their own government and be done with it.

[L0oniX]

94. We should leave. This is a police matter. The CIA, FBI and special forces should take covert actions

and infiltrate the terrorist organizations even if it takes 7 years. Too bad we didn't use the last 7 years to do that. Osama could have been sniped out by now.

[blues90]

107. No one has ever beaten Afganistan and we won't either

All we have done is make matters worse all because of a damned pipe line. Putting more troops in there will now change a thing other than cause more death.

To even attempt to continue this is insane and this is what we have , and Obama thinks he has the answers , well no one has the answers.

Of course the people in the US thought this was just great and i imagine many still do.

This crap now will never end other than badly. We've been there 7 years now , think about that.

[Just-plain-Kathy]

108. I don't know who I'm quoting, but I once heard someone say that you can't win a war...

....fighting an enemy who doesn't wear a uniform.

It makes sense because you never know who your enemy is.

[blues90]

110. exactly , this is how it is trying to define the war on terror

No uniform and no country, just a war on an idea. It can be any country they determine the enemy even if it is you or me.

[McCamy Taylor]

113. UN action is ok. US as part of UN action is ok.

[blindpig]

115. 45%? We got us a bunch of imperialist warmongers here. n/t

[jillan]

118. Did anyone see Charlie Wilson's War?

I think the last minute of that movie somes it up really well.

I voted #1 in this poll.

[Cleita]

120. None of the above choices.

But I don't think we should stay in Afghanistan because our purpose was to get Osama bin Laden and I believe he is dead. There is no reason to stay, however, we should ask the UN to send peacekeeping forces so that the Taliban can't gain complete power again. Incidentally a lot of people think the Taliban and Al Queda are the same. They are not. They were allies against us, but they are not interchangeable. Al Queda seems to be operating in Pakistan and Saudi Arabia, which is where we should be concentrating our efforts, but we don't need armies to do that. This requires diplomacy and covert operations IMHO.

[Just-plain-Kathy]

121. One night a couple of summers ago I was up late surfing the internet (like I am tonight)...

...I had FOX news on the TV. This was the night when was supposedly killed Saddam in a coffee house. Well it was reported that night that we captured Usama. I remember the news caster saying about the chances of capturing the both of them in one evening. ...I wasn't dreaming, but the next morning not a word was said about Usama.

Now either they were wrong about the "capture" or they decided that telling us Usama was captured would end support of their very profitable war.