McCain given preferential treatment at Hanoi Hilton

[FreakinDJ]

The question needs to be asked

By Sen. John McCain's own testimony he broke in just 4 days and told his captors every thing they wanted to know. More then that - he received preferential treatment the rest of his time in Hanoi.

Here is a photo of McCain - outside of the POW camp being seen by Spanish Psychiatrist Dr. Fernando Barral

[patrice]

1. Is McCain blocking access to records about other Veterans? Why? nt

[FreakinDJ]

11. That is the big question

You would have thought being a POW himself he would have wanted to help out the families of other POWs.

No - instead he makes it his personal vendetta to ensure the truth is never revealed

[bluestateguy]

2. Here:

http://www.vietnamveteransagainstjohnmccain.com/

It's a fringe far right group, but hey, we had to buddy up with Stallin to win WWII.

[Tandalayo_Scheisskopf]

4. Ted Sampley.

Noted scumbag and yes, fraud artist. Not to be trusted on the color of a clear sky, much less anything else. Even if it has to do with McImpotence.

[FreakinDJ]

5. There is a lot more to it then just Ted Sampley's rant

regardless of what Sampley has to say the photos taken outside of the POW camp picturing McSame in nice clean clothes in comfortable surroundings tell quite a tale

[cliffordu]

12. What, that the North Vietnamese used him for a photo op??

[cliffordu]

26. So now we're quoting stalkers.....

If you were going to use a POW for a photo op, would you leave him filthy and in rags, with maggoty rice, or would you make it look like they were all living the life of Reilly with good food and new clothes???

Was there a reason they shot the photos OUTSIDE the Hanoi Hilton??

Sampley, Is that you??

[LostinVA]

36. Yes, McCain, like many other POWs, was used for propaganda purposes

I won't blame ANY of them for anything they had to do to survive. I remember when the POWs came home -- I watched it with my grandmother on TV.

[crikkett]

6. Sadly their website could use an overhaul.

it's spastic and breathless in its claims with all the huge text and yelling, and I couldn't find a TOC.

Spastic/breathless/unorganized is not very credible or helpful to the cause of electing Barack Obama.

[treestar]

3. That was before he checked into the Paris Hilton

:rofl:

[Deja Q]

16. Great. Now I've got images of that, and her crabs, stuck in my mind.

x(

[DS1]

19. Do you ever have anything else stuck in your mind?

[TooBigaTent]

7. Of course he did. But Dems will not attack him on this because they are too chicken-shit.

If the official campaign will not run an aggressive attack, it is up to indie groups to do so.

The only problem is that our side does not have the money or media control to really make this message wide-spread and constant enough to have any impact. The same goes for any message not approved by the GOP. I swear, sometimes it does seem like the Democrats need to get all their ads approved by the pukes before they run them.

Having losers like that in charge explains a lot of why the Dems lose so many elections.

Please fight, god dammit. For once.

[Name removed]

8. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[LostinVA]

39. This is a disgusting post, and shows you know nothing of what the POWs

Went through over there. Regardless of the of bombing Nprth Vietnam, thees men were emotionally, physically, and mentally tortured. They were used for propaganda purposes. They ALL broke down in some way. They had to, or they would die or go mad.

I remember listening and watching the propganda tapes on TV when I was a kid. Even as a kid, I understood what they were.

I REALLY hope you don't believe what you're writing.

Shameful.

[cliffordu]

44. Yep.

[MiniMe]

9. It just isn't worth going there

Yes, he got priviledged treatment. He was also horribly treated. Its a poison road you are starting on. Tell me he isn't a hero because he got shot down and I will agree with you.

[LostinVA]

24. Agree 100%

[madeline_con]

10. There's a transcript of the interview.

Which wasn't at the Hanoi Hilton.


http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=6569418&mesg_id=6569418

[TexasObserver]

13. UCMJ only requires you to hold out as long as you can.

If you're injured and need medical attention, that is a factor.

I find McCain's conduct in life a complete mess before he was shot down, and complete disaster after his time as a POW. I suspect his time as a POW was not inconsistent with his life before or after.

(edit: I could be wrong about it being under UCMJ, but that is my fuzzy memory. It could be general orders or some other military standard, but I thought it was in the UCMJ. I remember being taught that in 1968 and 1969)

[Deja Q]

15. I did not know that, re: the USMJ requirements.

Thank you for posting.

[TexasObserver]

27. I was in the military the years he was in POW camp, and that was what they taught us.

Somewhere in my old military stuff, there's a little book they gave us in basic, and it's in there. Forty years ago, I was out of basic training a month.

I wonder if Tahiti Nut or Clifford remember being told that.

They said the duty is to hold out as long as you can, but that everyone breaks, and do the best you can to do as little damage as possible. I had a Top Secret clearance with Crypto access, so we had some special training about preserving certain types of secrets. But I remember clearly being told "everyone breaks eventually."

[FreakinDJ]

17. McCain was NEVER tortured

His "confessions" were well documented internationally so he insist he was tortured, but a group of veterans claims he was never tortured.

McCain made the whole torture story up to save face in front of his Admiral father

[cliffordu]

20. How was it in there? Were you his celly?

[FreakinDJ]

21. It was documented in DOD files

that was why McCain introduced legislation to forever seal them

do the homework

[cliffordu]

23. I could give a shit what he did in the Hanoi Hilton.

Your obsession with this one aspect of him is telling though.

He has dementia and verbal diarrhea. Why not discuss his complete lack of character now??

I just don't get the obsession with the POW stuff.

[FreakinDJ]

28. As if George Bush could talk?

Still to this day I wonder "How the Hell did America ever elect an idiot that can't even talk"

Dementia and Verbal Diarrhea does not produce "Sound Bytes" and that is ALL the voting public is concerned with any more

[TexasObserver]

33. Weren't you told your duty as POW was to resist as long as you could?

And that if you break, you break?

[cliffordu]

37. Yep, I was told that. I was told everybody breaks, too.

EVERYBODY.

The stuff that we now know about Abu Grahib and Guantanamo is all being ignored by the "McCain is a traitor" crowd - everybody will say anything, to get torture to stop.

Queen fucking Elizabeth the first knew that confessions obtained under torture were useless.

The folks who keep this shit alive are seriously mis-informed and I think some of them are operatives. Or maybe just obsessive compulsives.

[TexasObserver]

48. Thanks. Glad to have that confirmed.

I had a stroke that wiped out some of my memory. Sometimes I can remember something, like "everyone breaks eventually, hold out as long as you can," but I can't remember being told that. Ten years ago, I could have remembered who told me and when. Now, that's just gone and it's never coming back.

I don't judge McCain harshly for his POW years. I judge him harshly for everything before and everything since, which is ample reason to find him unfit. He was a complete fuck up in the military, and would never have been a pilot without the nepotism his father and grandfather's status conferred.

[cliffordu]

51. Yep, the guy's whole life has been one epic fail after another.

The POW stuff needs to be left alone. I had an abusive stepfather who was enthusiastic about fucking me up, I can only imagine what the Hilton was like.

I'd have sung my guts out.

[TexasObserver]

52. Yes, I'm afraid I wouldn't have lasted very long.

I don't think many people understand what sleep deprivation, poor hygiene, poor diet, isolation, and maltreatment do to the will and mind. When a prisoner is waked up every hour, they lose all sense of reality after a few days. They hallucinate heavily.

[patrice]

61. I'm willing to accept expert advice about this even though "McCain is as solid as a rock for America

" IS the centerpiece of their campaign.

And I just wonder if there isn't perhaps a more oblique way to approach the Truth WITHOUT judging the man personally. Wouldn't it be better, in the long run, for a country that so blithely sends folks off to do Death and Destruction, to have a more complete understanding of what, EXACTLY , that experience is about, GOOD & BAD , for ALL of those who go through it?

I just feel that what America NEEDS the most right now, in regards to all of our issues, is the complete Truth.

Edit: grammar

[treestar]

29. Where is this group of Swiftboating veterans?

[FreakinDJ]

35. Watch the video

http://www.vietnamveteransagainstjohnmccain.com/

[TexasObserver]

31. We can never know that. It's impossible to know.

[Deja Q]

14. I know a new bumper sticker they can use; place it next to their "I'm not fonda Jane" sticker:

"I'm not fonda John".

[cliffordu]

18. I wish the individuals who keep posting this shit would understand the

Republicans would LOVE it if we were to somehow get the MSM to report all this......particularly if "Obama's supporters" could be blamed for it.

It would just look like character assasination of a "true american hero"

Urging people to use this is short sighted and lazy. Calling them chickenshit means school isn't back in yet.

There are an unlimited number of reasons to keep him out of the white house that are current, but fucking around with this myth that folks have about him will guarantee his election.

America doesn't want the truth. If the people here did, Cheney would be in the Hague already.

I wonder if some people pushing this meme are actually republican operatives.

[FreakinDJ]

25. Then why does it work so well for Republicans

Obama is Musilim ect ect ect...

Call it what you will, but the dumbing down of America began 25 yrs ago and the result is a short sighted sound byte that sticks in some dum ass's mind that works.

The 527s have proved this election cycle after election cycle and the Dems will be standing around scratching their heads wondering what happen in Nov 2008

[cliffordu]

30. Why are you willing to climb into a sewer inhabited by the likes of Sampley

to "get even"??

What happened at the Hanoi Hilton needs to be left there. The sooner THAT is IGNORED the sooner the present day John McCain can be dismantled for the wife-abusing, gold-digging, ill-tempered ignorant asshole he is, which is what you DO want to run against.


We cannot win against the legend. By constantly attacking him about the POW stuff, you WILL make people see him AGAIN as the War Hero/Legend stuff and the 'low information' independants will see it as falling in with a patriot to vote for him.

You will NOT convince anyone he is a traitor, even if he was. That myth is too embeded in the psyche of the US to puncture. Trust me on this.

Get him for that other things I listed above.

[FreakinDJ]

32. The fact he is blocking access to records proves something is there

[cliffordu]

34. Sigh. So what.

[FreakinDJ]

40. and if a Democrat had done that - then what?

we would never hear the end of it

Fuck all this "High Road" shit. It isn't working just as Nancy Pelosie's "Impeachment is off the table" is not working too

[cliffordu]

43. I'm not gettin' what this has to do with the time McCain spent at the Hilton.

And of course we woulnd't hear the end of it.

Oh, and one more thing:

If McCain had been a rat, the other prisoners would have fucked him up.

Maybe we could concentrate on something that has happened in the last 30 years to keep him out of the white house...

ya think??

[FreakinDJ]

49. Maybe we could concentrate on something that has happened in the last 30 years

Like blocking access to the records?

Honestly when I started on this I didn't know that it was Bob Dole's legislation to open up the records, and McCain worked so hard to derail the legislation of a "fellow" republican. Now McCain has had the records classified under "National Security"

So let the whole issue of National Security bite the Rethugs in the ass. They have used that ploy to distort history and the truth for all too long now

[RedShoes]

45. it's not about the high road...talk about McCain's affairs, that he's about as sharp as a marble

but until YOU can produce something with Obama in uniform, there is a code that you are treading on THAT WILL NOT BODE WELL FOR OUR CANDIDATE, I promise. They are chomping at the bit for this one, and you will be delivering it on a silver platter.

[cliffordu]

47. I sometimes have the feeling THAT is precisely the point of some of these folks.

[FreakinDJ]

50. That is what we have spoon fed 1 election cycle after another

and what have been the results

Perhaps the POW/MIA group have a point? Who is to know since the records have been made unaccessible to the American public for security reasons

Who's security?

[RedShoes]

53. oh bullshit. There is a REASON it works on them and not on us...

they are looking for a REASON to hate while WE look for a reason to EMPATHIZE.

Please don't be stupid.

no one is saying not to attack McCain. But we ARE saying don't attack McCain on *this*. He served. Our guy didn't. We need to accentuate the positive while NOT DRAWING attention to the negative. And you, sir, are grossing underestimating the ONE FUCKING THING McCain has on Obama, and that's military service, in uniform, during a time of WAR. Do. Not. Belittle. Our. Servicepeople. Ever. And that happens to include John McCain.

Please don't do this. I promise you it looks stupid. I can't tell you how stupid.

[cliffordu]

55. Exactly.

[FreakinDJ]

56. Seen the polls lately

No matter How stupid the rumor or disinformation is the Repubs put out it works - to a degree. Add up enough degrees and - will I'm sure you know the rest. We have been living in the Hell that is.

So while the working class bare yet another shalacking at the hands of the Repubs the Democratic faithful hang on to their leadership thinking some how some thing has got to change.

It just like John Kerry's silence all over again

At some point a fighter has got to come off the ropes and throw a punch every now and again

[RedShoes]

58. Polls don't matter until October, and you know it

This is not about John Kerry all over again. John Kerry served. they lampooned his service. You *think* lampooning McCain's service would be successful, and perhaps it would, if the Nominee WAS A FUCKING VETERAN. But he is not, so it makes you look bad AND stupid to bring up McCain's service. Even if it is specious, at least he HAS service record at ALL.

Again, please stop this. You are doing a disservice to our nominee.

[kwolf68]

60. Good post

Sometimes people don't think. I could give a shit what McCain did in Vietnam to be honest. He was there and we should leave it at that. I was beside myself with the way they went after Kerry's service and I don't wish to do the same type of cheap bullshit to McCain.

As you said, there are plenty of other areas to go after mcCain on, his military record really isn't one we're going to win.

[mitchum]

22. That's because he was a celebrity

[Vickers]

38. While I also *privately* question the specifics of his POW time, I feel

that this is too dangerous a path to take as part of any official (or even netroots) campaign policy.

Even the folks at work who LOATHE him (many of them hardcore repukes themselves) feel that his military service was honorable.

I'd hate to alienate them, since I think that many are either going to sit out the election or (gasp!) pull the lever for Obama.

[RedShoes]

41. please stop this. Unless he was free to leave, he was a POW. PLEASE STOP THIS

I can't tell you how bad it makes you look. I can't tell you how bad it makes Obama look by comparison. (someone who did serve, vs someone who didn't)

John McCain will lose this election because he is an asshead. But he happens to be an asshead who was a POW. Impugning ANY part of his military service smacks of swiftboating, and does not look good.

I promise.

[tuckessee]

42. In fairness to McCain, he didn't ask for special treatment.

He got it because he was a prized prisoner.

A good captor would force special treatment on a guy like him, or at least make the other POW's think he was receiving it, for purposes of "dividing and conquering" and undermining morale.

Many of the long term POW's in VN made tapes, statements, divulged classified info, etc. It's difficult not to crack at least somehwat giving the extended time those guys spent in captivity.

From what I understand, after reviewing what occurred with POW's in VN, the military reworked its policies to make prisoner conduct rules more realistic than the Hollywood style "name, rank & serial number" routine.

I have more of a problem with McCain thinking his slaughter of Vietnamese during an illegal, counter-productive war was "service to America" than I do with any of his actions or inactions while a POW.

[cliffordu]

46. A lot of us wrestle with just that on a personal level, too.

What is honorable service, in an illegal war?

I could write a book....

[tuckessee]

54. It might be a good idea to write a book or memoir.

Future generations will certainly appreciate it.

Many frank personal accounts about VN came out in the years immediately after the war but for the last 20 years or so most books are hero oriented works or feel-good steam & cream/search & destroy adventure accounts, usually from LRRP, SEAL, SF, Force Recon vets.

It would be nice to have a few more works by people who don't think killing gooks was fun and that we lost the war becuase of liberal commie pinko traitors on the homefront.

Something with more introspect and humanity

[patrice]

62. Thank you for this insight. nt

[Bigmack]

57. Never mind whether it's true!

I have asked this question every goddam time anything about McSame's POW record is posted on DU....

Why hasn't the MSM jumped on this the way they did with Kerry?

I wouldn't believe Sampley and those Swiftboat assholes if they told me it was daylight, but the MSM has paid no attention to this issue (non-issue?)

Where are the scurrilous books, the hate-filled LTTEs, the pompous editorials asking for full disclosure that Kerry got?

And the posters who say this was all 40 years ago? Tell Kerry that.

DUers should not bring this shit up.... but where is the media at least referring to the "swiftboaters at it again"?

[samsingh]

59. disappointing about the hiltons

i thought they were Democrats and the Marriott management was repug.