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Any thoughts on why a bioresearcher with access to any drug, chose Tyl c Codeine

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librechik Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-01-08 04:28 PM
Original message
Any thoughts on why a bioresearcher with access to any drug, chose Tyl c Codeine
Edited on Fri Aug-01-08 04:36 PM by librechik
a protracted, agonizing death by all accounts?

Just wondering...

And BTW, that fact emerged awfully quickly. We had to wait weeks to discover what was in the DC Madame's system, in more or less the same police area.
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Avalux Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-01-08 04:29 PM
Response to Original message
1. A very strange way to commit suicide.
I would think he'd have access to much more potent drugs which would do the job easier and quicker. Very strange.
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Dreamer Tatum Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-01-08 04:29 PM
Response to Original message
2. Because it was probably laying around the house?
If you go to the dentist or sprain your ankle, they prescribe T3 like it's Tic Tacs. My guess is that he was like a lot of us and had it laying around.
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librechik Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-01-08 04:35 PM
Response to Reply #2
4. yeah one or two. Ivins must have known what would happen if he took
a lot. Someone's relative on the forum recently almost died with a tylenol suicide attempt. As I recall, the poster said he had swallowed 160. My tylenol comes in bottles of 50.

My point is, he had access to other things, no doubt, things that would simply shut off the lights in a painless fashion, or without a trace. I wonder why he didn't spare himself the pain of liver failure followed by coma followed by death days later?

Just wondering...
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Bluerthanblue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-01-08 04:52 PM
Response to Reply #4
9. pretty effective, if you ask
me-

The codeine would have blocked out the discomfort well enough, and the tylenol does a number on the liver and kidneys-
I doubt he was feeling much pain, or that he cared how long it took, so long as it was lethal.

It's hard to know for sure. Suicide is usually difficult to understand from the outside.


:shrug:

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AnneD Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-01-08 04:31 PM
Response to Original message
3. Whole thing smells...
of three day old fish.
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kimmerspixelated Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-01-08 04:42 PM
Response to Reply #3
5. Exactly!
Wonder what really happened! He was about to be convicted? Or...maybe something else was up? Maybe he was going to spill the beans on who he was hired by to do the Anthraxing?!
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magellan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-01-08 04:44 PM
Response to Original message
6. I have my doubts about this
First, men who choose suicide don't use pills as often as guns, hanging, etc.

Second, as shown by letters to the editor, Ivins was a Catholic who was so orthodox in his views that he opposed abortion and assisted suicide. It's unlikely that such a strict Catholic would commit the ultimate sin of suicide.

And then there's the convenient timing of his demise.

Not saying it isn't possible the guy offed himself exactly as reported. He could have been just another extreme RW "do as I say, not as I do" religious type (plenty of those in this country). But IMO there are a few reasons to be skeptical.
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AnneD Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-02-08 09:15 AM
Response to Reply #6
13. I am beginning to think....
Edited on Sat Aug-02-08 09:17 AM by AnneD
this is a convenient way for the FBI to put this case to rest. They were looking like fools, esp after the court ordered them to pay the guy that they had first labeled a suspect for libel, defamation of character, and basically ruining his professional life. I think they are taking this 'timely' death and using it to their advantage. The guy may have been guilty, but you can't try a ghost and a trial would have brought up all kinds of inconvenient information. They would have reason to help him along his way.

Hey, if a young woman soldier can commit suicide by repeatedly hitting herself with the butt of a rifle and setting her genitalia on fire.....anything is possible.
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Muttocracy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-01-08 04:46 PM
Response to Original message
7. someone suggested in another thread that maybe family took away everything else
They knew he was suicidal. FBI was sitting outside their house for a year according to neighbors, so I'm not sure he could just get something delivered either.

I'm not clear who's saying the Tylenol thing anyway - is it just from the estranged brother who heard it from the other brother? or from other staff at his workplace? But not medical examiner?
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Warpy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-01-08 04:46 PM
Response to Original message
8. Most successful suicides are done by means at hand
and perhaps that was the full prescription on hand.

It does seem a rather odd thing to use, a vomitous method that kills slowly and with the maximum misery. An aspirin overdose would have been faster and less painful.

People who try to OD with Tylenol in any form generally get so sick they end up calling for help in time, just to make it stop.

My guess is that they found the prescription bottle and a tox screen confirmed there was codeine in his system.

We'll probably never know if that's what killed him.
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bdf Donating Member (430 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-01-08 05:20 PM
Response to Original message
10. Depends how much you take
I should mention for readers outside the US that in some countries (notably the UK), tylenol is known as paracetomol.

Codeine is an opiate and has effects common to opiates. One of the main effects in lower doses is that it is a painkiller. It also acts upon the central nervous system, making you feel relaxed and happy. It slows down peristalsis, which can lead to constipation. It can cause unconsciousness by its actions on the CNS. And it can depress the breathing reflex. If you take enough of it, not only does it cause unconsciousness, it also depresses the breathing reflex to the point at which your brain is not sufficiently oxygenated, leading to deeper unconsciousness and an even weaker breathing reflex, which is the start of a vicious spiral.

So take enough of it and you progress through a relaxed, joyous feeling, through unconsciousness and thence to a painless death. Painless because it is a painkiller and because you're unconscious.

The problem arises when you use a tylenol/codeine mix and you don't take enough of it for the codeine to give you that merciful death. Then you wake up the next day. And probably a good night's sleep, together with the surprise at finding yourself alive (and perhaps combined with a belief that there was divine intervention and that you're marked out for special attention by Gawd) means that you no longer feel suicidal. You may be glad you failed. And continue with your normal life. But behind the scenes the tylenol overdose is taking its toll.

Tylenol depletes an enzyme needed by the liver. The maximum dose the packet tells you that you can take is enough to use up that enzyme faster than it can be replaced. But the packet tells you to take that amount for no more than three days. If you take the maximum allowed amount for a week or two, or exceed that maximum for a shorter period then you use up all of that enzyme. And without that enzyme, the liver dies. But it takes one or two days (in some cases as long as three) for the rest of the body to realize it. And then the pain starts. And it's a really, really, bad pain.

In the first day, perhaps two if you're lucky, after the overdose you can go to the doctor and he can treat you with a supplement of the depleted enzyme. You may suffer some liver damage but you'll probably live. But most people don't do that: they think that because they're still alive the day afterwards either they didn't take enough to do the job or they've been miraculously saved. So they go about their lives, happily thinking that somehow they were spared death and thinking that life looks so much better. And then the pain starts. And at that point it's too late: the liver is kaput, no amount of the missing enzyme will fix it. At that point you have a few days to live, and those days will be spent in intense agony.

So he might have taken this stuff, but only if he were damned certain it was enough for the codeine to take him out.

Note to drinkers: tylenol, even in the recommended dose, exacerbates the damage done to the liver by alcohol; simultaneous use of alcohol greatly reduces what constitutes a safe dose of tylenol. People taking the recommended dose of tylenol washed down with a glass of wine have ended up with liver damage.

As an aside... The enzyme that tylenol depletes can be added to tylenol tablets fairly cheaply. If that were done, accidental and deliberate deaths from tylenol would be far rarer than they are today (it's not totally safe even with that enzyme, but the lethal dose then becomes much larger). Any country that has tried to introduce legislation to do so has had big pharma resist to the point that the legislation was dropped, because although the enzyme is cheap, it's not free: tylenol is a low-cost, low-margin drug and adding the enzyme would put up the cost somewhat.

As another aside... Customers ought to have the choice—cheap tylenol that is dangerous or slightly more expensive tylenol that is (by comparison) safe. In the conservative's beloved "market economics" one would expect that one drug company would corner a niche market for "safe" tylenol, but it hasn't happened.

As yet another aside... This is a classic case of "Prisoner's Dilemma." Any one company marketing "safe" tylenol would probably find it uneconomic. The marketing costs, etc., and the fact that shoppers (especially these days) are cost-concious means it would make a loss. Even if all but one company switched exclusively to "safe" tylenol, the one company that "defected" and marketed "fucking dangerous but dirt-cheap" tylenol would sweep the board. Only if they were all forced to market only "safe" tylenol would the situation be stable.

In a similar situation General Electric begged Dim Son to introduce "green" legislation because they wanted to switch to green goods. Not because they're genuinely concerned about the environment but because there is a hell of a market. If you're selling fridges (or whatever) you're essentially servicing a replacement market (people have fridges which eventually wear out). If you could market energy-efficient fridges you'd have a far larger replacement market because people would want to replace their fridges before they wear out. But energy-efficient fridges are more expensive, and people are broke. So that only works if all fridge manufactures switch to energy-efficient models. If GE went it alone they'd have the energy-efficient market to themselves but it would be smaller than their current market. If every manufacturer were forced to switch by legislation then GE would retain their same market share (all other things being equal). But the market would (temporarily) expand a little because people who could afford it would replace their fridges sooner. It's not a major increase by any means, and it wouldn't last for long, but every little helps. So GE, amongst others, begged Bush for green legislation. Which he turned down, because he's a fucktard.

So the big question is, why didn't any of the pharma companies make a similar request wrt tylenol? It wouldn't pay any one of them to go it alone, but if they were all forced into it they wouldn't lose out—they could charge more to cover their costs (and would actually charge a good deal more than that, claiming their costs were higher). Unlike GE and fridges, there would be almost nobody throwing away their tylenol to replace it with "safe" tylenol, they'd just wait until they'd used the old stuff. So there's no slight market boost. Which means there's nothing in it for the pharma companies except knowing that they were selling a safer product.

If the pharma companies were at all ethical, they'd be saying "We'd love to sell 'safe' tylenol, but if we go it alone we're fucked. Please pass legislation forcing us all to do it because then we could revel in the nice, warm, fuzzy feeling of doing good in the world." Why don't they do that? Because they sell the painkillers somebody dying from an overdose of tylenol needs to make his or her last few days on this earth slightly less agonizing.

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librechik Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-01-08 07:34 PM
Response to Reply #10
11. thank you, bdf, for the extremely informative--and appalling--post
and welcome to DU!

:hi:
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ChazII Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-01-08 07:48 PM
Response to Reply #10
12. This is an informative post. Thanks. n/t
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Bonobo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-02-08 09:24 AM
Response to Reply #10
14. Thank you for taking the trouble to educate us with that post. nt
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AnneD Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-02-08 09:24 AM
Response to Reply #10
15. Wish I had a nickel......
for the people I helped care for that were in the hospital because their liver was shot from tylenol (lots of teenage girls that in the old days would have OD'd on aspirin now kill their livers instead). I have always safely taken aspirin and gave it to my young daughter. The only reason why tylenol is in the medicine cabinet is because hubby is allergic to aspirin.
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bdf Donating Member (430 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-02-08 11:55 AM
Response to Reply #15
16. How about ibuprofen? (n/t)
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