another school year approaches and, yup, the pukes push vouchers.

[ulysses]

In a "post-partisan" world, I don't expect Obama to take a hard line against them. In fact, I've readied myself for the idea that he might embrace them to some extent in the next several weeks.

I know that there are those out there on DU who aren't opposed to the use of vouchers. My request here is that you'll explain to me why you think they're a good thing and what you think they'll achieve.

[proud2BlibKansan]

1. The end of public schools as we know them

What an achievement!!

:sarcasm:

[ulysses]

4. it's an achievable benchmark.

;-) :hi:

[proud2BlibKansan]

32. LOL

We are apparently moving away from benchmarks to something else. Love the way they change the vocabulary on us all the time.

[Spouting Horn]

51. It would be better stated

that Government vouchers would spell the end of PRIVATE schools.

You don't think they'd give away money without very long strings attached, do you?

[glowing]

2. We don't have the money for vouchers...

[ulysses]

5. hell, we don't have the money for any damned thing.

Not that that's stopped us before.

[bluestateguy]

3. No. Fucking. Way

My taxes are not going for some rich kid to go to Exeter Academy, or some white kid in Mississippi with racist parents who send their child to an all-white academy, or some kid with parents who hate Jews, Muslims and gays and send their child to a Southern Baptist fundamentalist school with dubious academic credentials.

I'm all for private schools. If it's that important to parents then I'm sure they will find some way to pay for it.

[ulysses]

6. against all reason that I can see, they've gained ground.

We have a voucher here in Georgia for kids with special needs. Don't be surprised if the campaign nullifies the criticism from McCain by accepting some kind of voucher idea as part of its education goals.

What then?

[Disturbed]

9. The RWing wants to destroy everything & make it private.

Public Education has been one of their targets for many years. They want to destroy it.

[ulysses]

17. well yeah.

We know why the pukes want vouchers. I want to know why some Dems do.

[DangerDave921]

42. Not for rich kids

Not sure where you got that idea. If they were rich, they can do private schools. Voucers are geared toward POOR parents in failing schools as a way of helping them get their kids out of shitty schools. And a lot of poor blacks (where unfortunately a lot of the failing schools exist) are in favor of them. But the teachers union is against them so the Dem party is against them.

The opposite of vouchers is basically telling poor parents that their kids have to stay in shitty schools. At least vouchers offers a hope of a better education.

[bluestateguy]

44. You are misinformed

I grew up in California. In 1993 there was a referendum to give vouchers to all parents with children in public schools. All of them. It lost 70%-30%. Even Orange County voted no.

They voucher people, not willing to take no for an answer, tried again in 2000, with the same plan. All parents would have gotten vouchers. Again it lost overwhelmingly.

It's not just the teachers unions that oppose vouchers. It's regular American voters too.

[ulysses]

45. couple of problems, though.

Are vouchers really going to make enough of a financial difference in private school tuition for a family at or below the "poverty line"? Any guarantee that private schools would even accept those kids? What about ones with special needs?

[bluestateguy]

49. That's right

Sure some private schools would take a few poor children who get good grades, have no behavior issues or have some other special talent (namely sports), but what about the rest? A private school is not obligated to accept a child with behavior issues, or a kid who is a bad student. Many of these private schools are tightly controlled by powerful governing boards made up of parents and alumni. A lot of them don't want the "riff raff" (poor, minority children) in their schools.

That then leaves the public schools as a sort of "dumping ground" for the kids who are not lucky enough to be able to afford the extra tuition that a private school costs, or otherwise are not selected for admission to a private school.

[napi21]

7. I have a question about vouchers. I'm a grandmother, so I don't

have any kids in the school system anymore, but I do have several grandchildren. A number of years ago, my son wanted to send his daughter to the local Catholic grade school when she was starting first grade. He checked with the school,k and the cost PEr YEAR was $6,500 PER CHILD!!!!! He has 2 children, two years apart, and he said there was NO WAY he could afford $13,000 a year to send those kids to the Catholic school! My question is, how much are these vouchers for? I once heard they were $3,500. If that's true, what good are they really? My son has a pretty good job, but he couldn't afford to pay $6,000 a year for the both kids to attend that school!

If what I heard about the vouchers is true, the only people who would benefit are the ones rich enough to afford the private school already, and the voucher would simply reduce their cost!

[MichiganVote]

11. In some areas they are equal to the per pupil grant provided to public schools.

And how long that will last before the richies demand more for the cost of their choice of a private school? A NY minute. And who will pay for this subsidized provision? You will. So when your son sends his kids to a private school, with a per pupil grant that does not pay for it all, some portion of things like Medicaid/Medicare or any other government entitlement program will be cut to pay for it.

Think about it.

[napi21]

20. Well, don't worry about it, they're both attending the public school.

BUT, what I was told is that the voucher funding would come from what was paid to the public school. ie: If a school had 3,500 students and they received $4,000 oer student, and 100 of them were pulled out and sent to a private school, the public school paymnent would be reduced by $400,000 that would be given to each parent. I honestly don't know is that's the way it works, but that's the explaination I got.

[MichiganVote]

30. Vouchers are given to parents in DC. The money is given to the school the child attends based

on a count day ratio. There is a lot of misunderstanding out there about current school funding let alone a voucher system. To my knowledge no parent receives any money up front and as I said, if a student transfers to a private or charter school mid year, payments to the school reflect that difference.

[ulysses]

12. that's a good question.

What I've heard ranges from $3-5k.

Many secular private schools charge well beyond what I've seen from most Catholic schools.

[proud2BlibKansan]

34. Each state sets their own amount

Unless there is a federal voucher program. Then it might be the same amount for every kid.

The important thing is that this is money that is taken AWAY from public schools.

[napi21]

41. I understand the $$ comes from the public schools, but...

so do the student. However, that wasn't the reason for my question. I don't know what "better schools" they're talking about when they say "parents can move their choldren from a poor school to a good one". I don't even know what other schools are available near my grandchildren, except for the Catholic School that my some wanted to send them to. My point was, if the voucher dollars are sent to the "new school" and the tuition at the new school is STILL too high for the parents to afford, who's really getting the benefit? IMO, it's the parents who could already afford to send their kids to the "new school" and the voucher just gives them a bonus!

[donco6]

46. That's how it seems to me, too.

It doesn't really expand anyone's options, it just lowers the cost of those who can already afford it.

[ladjf]

8. Ruining the public school system is one of the cornerstones of

Republicanism. They can indoctrinate the young more effectively in private schools.

[ulysses]

15. the invisible hand of the market

is deeply disappointed in your lack of faith. ;-)

[bicentennial_baby]

43. The funny thing is, if you study the Economics of Education,

you learn that the founding of public schools, starting up here in Boston at the dawn of the Industrial Era, was a mechanism to produce "good workers" for the mills and such. Wasn't so much about learning anything, but more about producing obedient people that could go along to get along. Also, it was to create a place to put the children of the men and women who were now working in the mills and other industries, as the family economy was no longer the norm, and the children had nothing to do. The Irish immigrants were highly resistant to the public education system.

Samuel Bowles and Herbert Gintis have written some really interesting work on the history of the intersection of economics and education in America.

I'm such a geek. :P

[MichiganVote]

10. I'd like a voucher for the politican of my choice to represent me.

Why not? If its good enough for McCain's kids, its good enough for me and mine. I'd like to order up things like reduced wages, substandard or no health care and I'd like to determine a yearly schedule for my voucher politician. I'd prefer a highly qualified politician and so it's going to be the politician's responsibility to pay for costly upgrades. No junkets but day long workshops with stale bagels and lukewarm coffee are possible for the right candidate.

So that's what I'd like and I intend to advance the plan in November.

[ulysses]

14. oh, if we could only rec individual posts.

:applause: :D

[MichiganVote]

31. Let's copy it and add it to GD. You first. :)

[TahitiNut]

13. The corporatists have an insatiable appetite for PRIVATIZATION.

Imagine. A "business" that has an entitlement to taxpayer dollars. It's easier to buy politicians than to actually attract people in a "fair market" for the goods and services. We have IMBECILE voters who proclaim public schooling a 'failure' solely because (they claim) private schools do a better job. Bang for the buck? Nope. Those private schools have to spend TWICE as much per student and then filter out the students most difficult (and expensive) to educate. Then those same 'fair and balanced" IMBECILES put burdens on the public schools that no private school would bear for a semester. It's fucking INSANE.

[ulysses]

16. no one ever went broke underestimating the sanity of our countryfolks.

It's a fascinating shell game to watch unfold, you have to admit.

Imagine. A "business" that has an entitlement to taxpayer dollars.

And one with less oversight than the defense industry! Whee! Gonna start me a new school tomorrow!

[Ilsa]

18. We are getting an "Autism School" here. Private. Tuition is $12,000 a year.

Like we could afford that along with all the therapies our insurance won't cover.

[ulysses]

21. that's actually pretty inexpensive as far as privates go,

if you can imagine. I'd be interested to know what they pay their teachers, too.

[Ilsa]

26. When you are already spending a ton of money raising a child with autism,

another $1,000 a month isn't very affordable. Insurance rarely covers much of the speech and occupational therapy our kids need.

I don't see how they can provide what these children need, if parents could even afford it. How can this school be accredited for kids with autism? They'll need Speech, Occupational, and perhaps physical Therapies.

BTW, I've been hearing of more parents here bailing out of private school because of the cost.

[ulysses]

27. good questions.

I don't see how they can provide what these children need, if parents could even afford it. How can this school be accredited for kids with autism? They'll need Speech, Occupational, and perhaps physical Therapies.

It would be easy to assume that they're accredited with *someone*, but even that's not a given.

That said - I've written before about the first private school for which I worked. It serves only kids with learning disabilities and ADD/ADHD. A completely different population than a school for kids with autism, of course, but they do a bang-up job with their kids. And they do take a few kids from very poor families in the city every year on their own dime, or at least they used to.

Of course, tuition is around $20k/year.

[Ilsa]

40. Excellent information! The private schools here are mostly

religious and for indoctrination. They will flat out admit that they don't want children with "problems", only perfect little automatons. Most of their teachers aren't trained to manage the issues associated with even a mild autism spectrum disorder or ADD or ADHD. Those kids are in for a rude awakening when they discover how many people there are in college or the workforce that have these behavior management and medical issues.

$20,000 a year wouldn't be too bad if the school district had to pick up part of the tab, but it is hard to prove that they should if they have programs that even minimally meeting the kids' needs.

[Zomby Woof]

19. My thoughts on vouchers

http://www.commondreams.org/views02/0729-06.htm

[ulysses]

22. dude, nice publication!

Need a few more minutes to read it, but I'm glad to see you're rejoining us in the classroom! :hi:

[Zomby Woof]

23. I wrote it 6 years ago

And my foray back into the classroom was cut short that very year when I left WA. I have accepted that my teaching days are behind me. :hi:

[ulysses]

24. 2s look a lot like 8s.

Well, shit.

You should rejoin us in the classroom. ;-)

[Zomby Woof]

25. LOL

My handwriting *is* sloppy. ;-)

In the months following my employer going belly-up after 9-11, I applied to sub in my local district, but demand had dried up there too, and my return was anti-climatic, to say the least. I wasn't eligible for full-time reinstatement because my regular teaching credentials expired in 1999, and I needed 30 upper-level credits to renew. I had no inclination to add to my debt. Seattle's economy was in the crapper, which added to the drama. Ah, those were the 'good ol' days of DU', lol.

So long and boring story short, that was it. If I ever do go back to teaching, it will NOT be in L.A. Unified. I admit it, I don't have what it takes to teach in that district, lol. It needs a serious administrative housecleaning.

Still, I will do whatever I can as a voter or volunteer to see that our schools get the resources they need, including L.A. Unified.

[ulysses]

28. still hoping to talk to some supporters.

Not looking to put you in the crosshairs, I just want to know why you support them.

[LWolf]

29. I don't think they're a good thing.

But you knew that. ;)

I'm going to go back and browse your thread now.

:popcorn:

[ulysses]

35. I keep hoping to get someone to tell me why they're good.

No luck so far.

[LWolf]

38. Here's the secret:

Everyone knows vouchers are right-wing weapons of mass public ed destruction.

Until a certain Democrat says differently. Then plenty will jump in to put vouchers "on the table."

Pardon my cynicism. :(

[ulysses]

47. that's what I'm hoping to avoid a little of

by obsessing over the issue now. :)

[LWolf]

48. Things are certainly heating up,

if Florida is any indication.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x3723872

[ulysses]

52. yes they are.

This will be a fight for a long time to come, and that's if we're lucky.

[LWolf]

53. I often wonder,

if I'd known the direction we were going, if I would have chosen a teaching credential over a masters in library science. I hovered between the two for a decade.

I'd still be fighting for public education either way.

Most days I'm glad I didn't know. I'm glad to be where I am, even knowing what we face professionally.

I head back to a couple of days of formal planning, and some time in the classroom, this week.

[ColbertWatcher]

33. Vouchers are a sneaky way to privatize schools.

If electrocuted soldiers is not bad enough, consider a nation of Monica Goodlings.

[ulysses]

36. heh.

:scared:

[Dorian Gray]

37. I don't have school age children

so this doesn't concern me in a practical sense. However, if I were a lower income mother living in a school district that was not a very good school, I'd probably be thankful for anything that allowed me to give my children a better education.

Looking at the system objectively, however, I see that it doesn't benefit our public schools, and vouchers allow us to ignore the problems in the crappier public schools.

[ulysses]

39. that view from the lower income bracket rests on several assumptions.

Among them are that the child would actually get a better education in a private school and that vouchers would allow you (hypothetically) to send the child to one at all. Neither of those are given, and in many cases not even likely.

Looking at the system objectively, however, I see that it doesn't benefit our public schools, and vouchers allow us to ignore the problems in the crappier public schools.

Exactly so. They would only reinforce the haves/have nots state of things that we currently have.

[mrreowwr_kittty]

54. If you are lower income, you will not be able to afford private school even with vouchers

A voucher will usually give you a couple grand. Private school tuition costs at least 10 times that. And then there are charges for books, uniforms, and meals that private schools usually don't provide.

[johnaries]

50. Vouchers only help the rich (Surprise!)

Vouchers don't even come close to paying private school tuitions. Therefore, the people who can't afford private schools without vouchers still won't be able to afford private schools with vouchers. It's giving the rich a discount on private education with taxpayer dollars.

No wonder Repukes love it!