Hiker fatally shot by bear hunter

[marmar]

Hiker fatally shot by bear hunter

01:28 PM PDT on Sunday, August 3, 2008

By BERNARD CHOI / KING 5 News



OSO, Wash. - Skagit county authorities say a young hunter mistook a hiker for a bear and shot her.

The accident happened Saturday morning along a trail on Sauk Mountain near Rockport.

Fifty-four-year-old Pam Almli was hiking with a friend when she was shot.

Almli's friends and family are devastated.

"She was an unbelievable woman," said neighbor Freda Slack.

She and her husband Pat say Pam Almli personified the Northwest spirit. She loved the outdoors, the mountains, and all that is green. .....(more)

The complete piece is at: http://www.king5.com/topstories/stories/NW_080308WAB_hunting_fatal_accident_SW.f2631a7.html

[livvy]

1. How very sad...

both for her friends and family, and also for the young man that fired the shot. It is something he will have to live with for a very long time. So many lives affected for the "sport" of killing a bear.

:cry:

[maxsolomon]

172. Northwesterner posting some info regarding the area:

Sauk Mountain is a popular hiking trail in the Mt. Baker Snoqualmie National Forest, near the North Cascades Nat'l. Park. It is reached by crossing State Park land.

Hikers (such as myself) generally are aware of Elk & Deer hunting seasons in the late fall, and thin out considerably to reduce the chance of getting shot. It is cold & wet. And it snows.

Black Bear "general" hunting season began on Friday Aug. 1. There is an additional hunt in the spring, and of course, "professional" hunters are allowed to kill bear who damage "forest resources".

more info:
http://wdfw.wa.gov/wlm/game/hunter/hunter.htm

I'm getting some blaze orange hiking clothing, and a vest for my dog. He might be mistaken for a mountain goat or an albino cub.

Knowing WA state, the kid will get a slap on the wrist.

[livvy]

213. I don't blame you. My bouviers wouldn't stand a chance.

In a forest setting they could easily be mistaken for a black bear, especially when they're not cut short. From the back they have a rounded bear-like look. They're heavy and would crash through undergrowth, so they might sound like one, too.

Here's what one looks like (not one of mine), if you are not familiar. Most, including mine have their ears cropped, so they stand upright. If the hair is not trimmed, they look even more like a bear.


I would guess that unless the kid is really cold, most of the punishment will come from within. I would think this event will haunt him for a very long time. I don't mean to excuse him, or the adult with him. They were careless and wrong, and this poor woman lost her life. It is tragic from whatever viewpoint one chooses to see.

Whatever his punishment (and yes, there needs to be a serious consequence for his actions), it can never bring back the woman's life, or normality to her family, or the family of the boy. That moment in time is sealed and cannot be reopened.

Take care of yourself and your furpal, and be careful!

[maxsolomon]

224. Update: no adult present - 2 brothers, 16 & 14.

http://www.bellinghamherald.com/northwest/story/485478.html

MOUNT VERNON, Wash. -- A 14-year-old bear hunter who shot and killed a hiker was with his 16-year-old brother - not an adult as previously reported, the Skagit County sheriff's office says.

An investigation determined that the boys' grandfather dropped them off in the Sauk Mountain area near Rockport on Saturday morning but was not with them when the shooting occurred, Chief Deputy Will Reichardt said Monday.

The two teens, from Concrete, were on a ledge overlooking the trail when the hiker, 54-year-old Pamela Almli, stopped below to put something into her backpack, he said. The younger boy fired, thinking she was a bear.


BTW, I love Bouviers - i have a "mini". A Wheaten - if you've ever seen the "Fawn" Bouvier, it's a remarkable resemblance between breeds:

[livvy]

229. Two teenagers out with guns, hunting...not good.

Grandpa shoulda' thought this through a bit.

I like Wheatens! I tried to talk my niece into getting one, and it was also my pick for the Obama dog-of-the-future, even though it wasn't on the voting list at AKC. I like fawn bouvs, too. One of my dogs mom was a fawn.

[TomInTib]

2. How awful.

I have been around more than my share of hunting accidents, but this is really sad.

All of the hunting incidents that I have experienced involved hunters who were fully aware of the inherent risks.

This poor woman was just out for a hike when some careless kid killed her.

[Barack_America]

3. Um, why do they allow hunting in a hiking area?

:shrug:

[madeline_con]

6. Maybe they don't.

[jody]

12. Succinct, accurate reply given the limited info in the article.

:thumbsup:

[krispos42]

23. They may not close state parks during hunting seasons

So you may encounter hunters in your travels around the parks. Many parks are open year-round, even if they're not attracking the bulk of their visitors outside of the summer months.

[defendandprotect]

60. No hiker should "encounter" a hunter . . . !!!

[krispos42]

127. That's not what I meant and I think you know that

But you can substitute "come across" if it makes things clearer for you.

[SmileyRose]

26. Not all hunting areas are well marked.

I've been in more than one area where hunters and hikers got mixed up together because the areas were not well marked. Not enough facts in the story to make any judgement on what happened.

[sandnsea]

253. It's just open to everybody

Millions of acres of forest, do whatever you want in it.

[jody]

4. I hope the adult and under-18 hunter are prosecuted to the full extent of the law. The young hunter

obviously had to have completed a hunter-safety course and did not apply what he was taught.

I know because I've taught hunter-safety courses in several states.

I love the outdoors like Ms. Pam Almli and we hunters must hunt safely so hikers like Pam and I can enjoy nature.

[defendandprotect]

58. Seems like a bad mix . . . hunters and hikers . . . who has the most potential to harm someone?

[Pavulon]

65. In the woods are on the way home..

these "accidents" are the product of people breaking rules. Drinking and driving death and shooting something you cant identify are predicated on bad choices.

Those are not accidents.

[Faygo Kid]

5. Absurd. Bullshit. First degree murdrer.

She was shot and killed for other reasons.

Who the fuck mistakes a 54 year old woman for a bear?

Get real.

[jody]

7. What statements in the article suggest first-degree murder which in most states, is defined as an

unlawful killing that is both willful and premeditated, meaning that it was committed after planning or "lying in wait" for the victim?

[NNN0LHI]

28. I agree but they lock up drunk drivers who hurt or kill others for long stretches

Even though it usually is not willful and premeditated.

Don

[jody]

31. My post was to faygokid re first-degree murder. Have a nice day. n/t

[Pavulon]

32. felony death by motor vehicle

I own firearms and support the 2nd. However with that comes responsibility.

There are no accidents involving firearms, only varying degrees of negligence and possible criminal act.

[The Stranger]

143. Actually, a "reckless disregard" is sufficient for murder.

[jody]

176. I don't believe that's "first degree murder" as faygokid asserted in #5. n/t

[The Stranger]

219. This is the best source I could find, but I'm pretty sure it is correct.

MURDER, FIRST DEGREE - In order for someone to be found guilty of first degree murder the government must prove that the person killed another person; the person killed the other person with malice aforethought; and the killing was premeditated.

To kill with malice aforethought means to kill either deliberately and intentionally or recklessly with extreme disregard for human life.

http://www.lectlaw.com/def2/m053.htm

[jody]

220. That agrees with my post #7. Have a great evening. n/t

[The Stranger]

238. Thanks, and I'll have a great evening, but it doesn't agree with your post.

I guess that is what I get for being helpful.

[jody]

241. Your post includes "willful and premeditated" as I did but I did not include "recklessly with

extreme disregard for human life".

I don't know whether the latter part applies in WA.

Thanks, :hi:

[madeline_con]

8. Don't be so hasty.

During hunting season, many wear noen orange for a reason. The reason is, som assholes shoot at anything that moves, or the least little sound. This could be the case here.

[Faygo Kid]

11. We'll see. Back the shooter up all you want.

54 year old woman. Yeah, right.

[jody]

13. I disagree, IMO madeline_con was suggesting caution given the limited facts in the article. n/t

[madeline_con]

15. Of course, let's try and convict right here.

Couldn't possibly have been unintentional.

[Pierre.Suave]

214. I get the point you are trying to make

but there is no such thing as an unintentional gunshot.

The trigger HAS to be pulled purposefully. What I don't get is why people shoot at stuff without knowing what it is.

[Barack_America]

14. I shouldn't have to be suited head-to-toe in hunter orange to walk on a hiking path...

...in a state park.

[jody]

18. The article said "trail on Sauk Mountain near Rockport". Please post a link to "hiking path in a

state park."

[Barack_America]

35. .

http://www.wildliferecreation.org/wwrp-projects/projects/Sauk_Mountain_1

[jody]

38. Sorry but your link does not answer my question. Please provide a link. n/t

[Barack_America]

39. That is a state funded hiking trail project.

If you don't see a problem with the state also allowing hunting along those hiking trails, that's fine. I do. Assuming, of course that they weren't breaking the law by hunting there.

[Pavulon]

40. I hike and hunt on the same land

owned by the state of NC. I ride mountain bikes and enjoy the land.

The land rules are not the problem, the problem is a person breaking a basic firearms rule.

[Barack_America]

42. There should be a radius around groomed hiking trails.

Hiking in the woods is different (although hopefully you'd be informed upon entering the park/trail that hunting is allowed in the vicinity).

These weekend hunters are a big problem in MI too, traipsing through people's land, wandering into heavily-trafficked areas of state parks. I've got no problem with hunters who are out there to enjoy the wilderness as much as they are to hunt, but these guys who just want to drive their pickups onto somebody's farmland, crack open a beer or two and kill the first deer they see (and often times the land owner's labrador)? Um, no.

And I realize I'm making some assumptions about this event here.

[samsingh]

276. somebody is now dead

[jody]

44. I see nothing in the news article that says the hiker was in a state park as you asserted. I asked

for proof since I am not familiar with that area as you apparently are to make such an informed statement.

[Barack_America]

47. The link I provided you stated that this is state owned land...

Maintained through state funding. I do not know whether it technically has "state park" designation (though the applicant for that grant was a "state park" and the grants are supposedly targeted to "state parks"). But if it is owned and maintained by the state then clearly the state should be able to designate areas for hunting vs. hiking.

[jody]

50. Thanks. I guess we'll just have to wait on the official report. I hope the adult and 18 yr old

hunter are prosecuted.

[michreject]

234. Then it's possible

that she was hiking in a hunting area? Just asking.

[natrat]

250. and what difference does that make

[michreject]

272. The hunter wouldn't expect anything but a game animal

and not a person. It makes all the difference in the world.

[samsingh]

277. and if a person strayed off into a hunting area does it mean that

them getting killed is just an innocent mistake?

i think a hunter is responsible for the outcome of their shot. they shouldn't be pulling the trigger unless they accept that responsibility.

[michreject]

279. I don't disagree with that

but shouldn't both share in the blame or the outcome?

[samsingh]

281. i don't think that death is a reasonable blame

[Missy Vixen]

117. It's more important that we all have to protect ourselves from people who shoot first and ask

questions later. I'm sure we'll all be told we should invest in neon orange to even walk outside during hunting season.

My sympathies go out to the now dead hiker and her family.
Julie

[countryjake]

157. It's a wilderness and National Forest area...

Rockport State Park
http://www.parks.wa.gov/parkpage.asp?selectedpark=Rockport

[jody]

177. The article did not say the victim was in "Rockport State Park". n/t

[countryjake]

185. She wasn't. You asked for a link...

"Please post a link to 'hiking path in a state park.'"

That is what I gave you.

Rockport State Park is at the access to Sauk Mt. Trails. The accident happened in a meadow on a hard trail thru the wilderness directly above Rockport State Park, which is Mt. Baker National Forest land. No, the killing didn't occur exactly within the State Park, but some hikers may mistakenly think that they're still on State Park property. I doubt that this woman wasn't aware of her location, as she was experienced with Sauk trails and the general area.

[jody]

192. My question in #14 was to Kristi1696 who asserted "I shouldn't have to be suited head-to-toe in

hunter orange to walk on a hiking path in a state park."

If you are correct, the victim was not in a "state park" and Kristi1696's statement in #14 is a red herring.

[countryjake]

200. Been up Sauk Mt. many times & it's National Forest, with State Park at its base...

and I wouldn't hike anywhere around here without wearing bright red, at any time of the year, hunting seasons or not. Lots of people are hurting economically in this corner of the nation and the area where this shooting occurred has been depressed for decades...lots of poaching goes on off-season and these folks ain't looking for "trophies"...they're stocking meat in their freezers.

As for the hike this woman was on, I'm sure she probably carried some sort of bear repellent or pepper spray, since she was familiar with the trail and must have known that bears are out in force this year, with rotten berry season after all the cold and rain. Bears are down raiding bird feeders in back yards and are scrounging for garbage. I've got one who frequents my compost pile this summer and I worry for him, now that the season is open.

Today's report on the news stated that the boy is devastated by what happened up that mountain. My speculation is that he sited the hiker's black backpack, since they're saying she had stopped and was stooped, putting something into it, when she was hit. I'll bet he never even saw the woman he shot and killed. Major mistake on his part, heartbreaking tragedy for all.

[jody]

203. Your description of the event makes sense to me. As I stated elsewhere, I've taught hunter-safety

courses in several states and I always included actual hunting accidents to show what might happen in a careless moment.

One that sticks in my mind involves a grandfather and grandson hunting deer with bows from stands several hundred yards apart.

At twilight, both hunters got down from their stand and headed toward an arranged meeting place.

The boy took a trail that the grandfather did not expect.

The grandfather saw a deer in the waning light, took careful aim and killed his grandson with a broad head.

I have many more but that story ranks at the top.

Many thanks for the information. :hi:

[madeline_con]

20. Is "a trail on Sauk Mountain near Rockport" in a state park? n/t

[tburnsten]

267. Not unless it's "hunting season"

you are responsible for your own safety and for having the most awareness possible, and if you want to go hiking in an area that is legal for hunting during hunting season, it doesn't make any sense for you to not take precautions to ensure you are highly visible, like wearing bright colors, especially some blaze orange. The kid who killed her is definitely guilty of extreme carelessness and impatience, and made a tremendous mistake in not double checking his target and backstop before firing. I find it hard to believe that he shot her on purpose, but based on the incredibly limited information here it does look like negligent manslaughter may be in order.

Hunters in most states are required by law to wear blaze orange, to ensure that they have an unnatural and easily recognizable bright color so that other hunters will be able to identify them, why should this not apply to everyone who wants to enter the same areas during hunting season?

[samsingh]

275. and you should have a blaring siren to accommodate the hunters

[Ahpook]

30. It happens quite a bit in deer season around here.

I know a couple people that hunt and they won't go without the vest:)

Some of those fuckers will shoot at anything that moves.

One of them told me he squatted on the edge of a clearing at 4AM. Once the sun broke he could see rifle barrels sticking up around the whole perimeter.

Imagine a single deer walking through there and everyone starts blasting?

No thanks:)

[defendandprotect]

62. Yeah . . I'm sure the deer thinks it's a "sport" . . .

[Pavulon]

68. Deer is food, your shoes probably

liked being a cow at one point. get over it.

If you are a vegan, then you have a valid non hypocritical position.

[defendandprotect]

81. I am a VEGAN . . .

My shoes . . . as much as possible . . . are fabric --

Animal-eating and animal-slaughter came in with patriarchy and "Manifest Destiny" ---

neither of which has done us anything but harm ---

In that light, I think it all needs to be ended.


Meanwhile, there is no "sport" in this kind of hunting down an animal and anyone

suggesting so is delusional ---

[Pavulon]

I respect your position but disagree

your views are your own. Personally I like tasty animals, I know steak does not come from the happy man at the butchers counter.

deer is an inexpensive form of food and hunter gatherer society existed long before the society that allows you to choose your food with such care. it tastes good and is healthy dog food.

Sport or no sport, who cares, just a word.

However normal, educated people can choose to hunt and fish and do so in an safe and legal way.

Killing a deer is not the same a killing a person.

[defendandprotect]

97. Concepts/ideas are not simply "words" . . .

And . . . animal killing and eating came in with patriarchy and patriarchal violence.

Animal-eating is making everyone ill -- is making the planet ill ---


I remember hearing that LBJ used to invite friends to "hunt" at his ranch ---

and he would take groups of males out in the middle of the night to a tower

he had built in the woods. As everyone got ready, rifles raised, he would

put on the floodlights. And there were the deer milling around and all set

for the kill.


As we see from this thread/story, hunting is NOT always done in a safe or legal way.


I don't recall saying that "killing a deer is the same as killing a person."

However, animals are wired the same we are to feel pain and pleasure --

It is my opinion that they are our brothers and sisters on the planet.


As for the patriarchal licenses to exploit --- "Manifest Destiny" and "Man's Dominion

Over Nature" they have brought us genocide and slavery --- oppression of women --

and Global Warming which is a fatally serious threat to our species and the planet.

[Pavulon]

102. Lots of topics

however me putting a rifle round through a deer that drops dead in its shadow is not impacting global warming.

canned hunts are unethical and in some places illegal.

Putting out rat killer around grain is common sense.

Check out life of mammals for a better understanding of how we evolved to where we are.

Overpopulation is the biggest threat to mankind, we are beyond carrying capacity.

[DrCory]

178. That's a sweeping statement...

"And . . . animal killing and eating came in with patriarchy and patriarchal violence"


Are you suggesting that ALL hunting originated with patriarchal societies? No matriarchal society engaged in the hunting, killing, and consumption of animals?

[defendandprotect]

99. dupe

[mitchum]

139. Your assertion that animal-eating equals patriarchy is absurd and misinformed

The people who practiced the old original religion of Europe (call them Celts, Druids, pagans, whatever) were both non patrirachal and meat-eaters
The same goes for many Native American peoples

[Wizard777]

159. Y'all say that like it's a disease. I'm diabetic. I'm asthmatic. I'm vegan.

I think I could go a lifetime without telling anyone I'm an omnivore. But I do agree that hunting is not a sport. Football is a sport and if you win don't eat the pigskin. But then again in Hockey you might eat a puck or two. But that doesn't mean you've won.

[Raskolnik]

179. "Animal-eating and animal-slaughter came in with patriarchy and 'Manifest Destiny'"

Really? Humans didn't hunt and eat meat prior to the 19th Century?

I'm not entirely sure how we got these canine teeth if that's the case.

[pipoman]

243. People who feel wild animals should not be hunted

simply have no concept of the effects of over population in rural/wilderness areas. I am sure your position seems quite logical from an armchair in an urban center, but the reality of animal overpopulation is, in the absence of culling, very real. Every state has a department responsible for animal management. They base the number of licenses issued on the wildlife populations for the health of the population. Over population of deer for example results in chronic wasting disease, high property loss, starvation, and other disease. Some of the disease has the possibility of completely wiping out a species. In addition most states license fees are spent for the preservation and reintroduction of wildlife. In my state wild turkeys were non-existent 20 years ago until fees collected from the sale of hunting licenses were used to reintroduce them back on public grounds. Now the wild turkey populations are thriving with literally millions of birds across the entire state. This population growth has almost eliminated the problem of mange and malnutrition in the coyote population, resulted in a boom in the population of bobcats which were threatened in this state, and has given the state yet another source of revenue to enhance state parks and manage the wildlife populations. State parks are funded almost entirely, in my state, by hunting and fishing licenses and those who don't hunt and fish benefit greatly from this. Most people who despise hunting and fishing don't contribute a cent to wildlife preservation, I contribute $150+ per year which is almost completely spent for the betterment of state parks, habitats and wildlife populations. The federal duck stamp program which is purchased by duck hunters in every state is almost solely responsible for the saving of many species of waterfowl including canvas back ducks, wood ducks, sandhill cranes, woodcocks and many other species.

[Critters2]

108. I'm currently wearing shoes of pvc, 15% of it recycled.

And I think it's a stretch to justify the shooting of a hiker by claiming it's necessary in order to get "food".

[flvegan]

111. Deer isn't food.

Unless you're a predatory animal that NEEDS it to survive. Which you (I'm betting) don't. Otherwise, you're making a selfish choice.

[Pavulon]

116. Need has nothing to do with it.

you dont need a computer, you dont need AC that draws power from a co2 producing source. YOu dont need 99% of what you have to live.

So dont lecture. Deer costs .50 cents for 50 lbs of meat.

Whatever choice I make has no impact on you.

[flvegan]

121. Does on the deer

so it does on me.

Selfish decision.

[Pavulon]

124. Agree to disagree

however when you hit bambi in your car and die it has no impact on me. Assuming we have never met and dint know each other in the real world.

Deer has been human food for thousands of years. Cave paintings are cool.

It is a personal choice, I will not justify my position to you, nor will I accept a judgment on it.

[flvegan]

128. Good for you.

You tried to justify it. Failed. Enough for me. Disagreement agreed upon. Have a good one.

[natrat]

251. it's all messed up. No wolves means huge deer poppulations

i think hunting and eating meat is is vile but in some cases it's the best thing

[Raskolnik]

181. So if I don't NEED it to survive, it's not food?

I'm not sure I've ever seen "food" defined that way. There's probably a reason for that.

Otherwise, you're making a selfish choice.

How is hunting, killing, and eating a deer a "selfish choice?"

[ZombieHorde]

227. Do you believe that Humans are natural predators?

I understand that you included "that NEEDS it to survive", and therefor, a yes statement would not invalidate your claim, since the vast majority of Humans can survive without deer meat.

[mitchum]

137. Deer is indeed food, but do bear hunters actually eat bear?

Or is all about a big shaggy head to display on their knotty pine wall?

[RebelOne]

164. Actually, most bear hunters do eat their kill. n/t

[Ahpook]

110. I am sorry if i worded the post in a certain way.

I haven't had a bite of meat in quite a while. The last time(which was the last time)I ate an animal slaughtered in the stinking toilets we have here in the states, i had an feeling of ingesting misery and disease.

Of course, i could hunt my own but i am not a hunter. I am one of those terrible vegetable eating freaks.

No one does my dirty work

[Maine-ah]

66. for someone who apparently loved the outdoors

you would think they would know when it's hunting season or not, and to wear the orange if they were going hiking during hunting season. Not blaming the victim here, nor is it an excuse for the hunter.

[defendandprotect]

83. .... because the onus was on her - the hiker -- not to get shot . . .????

[Gormy Cuss]

105. No, but people who know that hunters are nearby often wear orange just to be careful.

I had friends in Maine who never went beyond the clearing of their own land (posted "No Hunting") during deer season because you never knew when some nitwit with a gun would be out there. That doesn't mean it would have been their fault if they were shot. It was just a precaution that became second nature to them after hearing too many stories like this one.

[defendandprotect]

109. I think "percaution" is on the wrong foot here --- !!!

If ordinary people in ordinary pursuits of their everyday lives have to worry about

hunters shooting them, I think we need to eliminate the threat ---

[krispos42]

29. How far can YOU see in a forest at peak foliage growth?

What was the terrain? What was the woman wearing?


First-degree murder is premeditated, deliberate killing. Unless there are unusual circumstances, this probably will end up being involuntary manslaughter at most.

[snooper2]

255. Or some huge fucking black Backpack on

or or or...



Thread is funny as shit...people just throwing random shit out everywhere :rofl:

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

46. What "other" reasons?

I'm really curious.

The article says the hunter was "young". Makes me think it was some kid. And we all know kids never have "accidents", right?

[Suich]

72. The hunter is 14 yrs. old.

It was just on the news.

[Maine-ah]

76. 14 hunting by themselves? Was there a parent or guardian with the kid?

[Suich]

167. There was an adult with him

but they aren't saying who it was or their age.

[Suich]

221. Whoa...update!

14 yr. old was with his 16 yr. old brother.

http://www.komonews.com/

[Gormy Cuss]

55. A nervous, inexperienced hunter, that's who.

It's hard to tell what's making noise in the woods half the time and if they were tracking a bear the young "hunter" may have Cheneyed.

[Recursion]

173. Barring a backstory the article doesn't tell...

...this is the textbook manslaughter case: hunter shoots at motion in the bushes without identifying the target.

[Raskolnik]

199. "She was shot and killed for other reasons."

Do you have information regarding this story that no one else has? If so, you should probably share it.

[Doug.Goodall]

9. Tragic accident with a gun

and the gun pushers at the NRA want everybody to have one. (a gun that is not an accident.)

[jody]

17. Do you oppose Obama, the Dem Party, and We the People who acknowledge the Second Amendment protects

the right of law-abiding citizens to keep and bear arms for self-defense?

[defendandprotect]

64. Only if you take away the opening clause . . . and, btw, why did they bother to put that in???

Yeah -- you have support now from a lot of right-wing fascists on the court ---

congratulations ---!

[jody]

94. What is the difference between "a lot of right-wing fascists on the court" and elected

representatives of We the People who support the SCOTUS decision in Heller?

Do you accuse anyone of supporting the decision of "a lot of right-wing fascists" of also being fascist?

You can read Heller at http://www.supremecourtus.gov/opinions/07pdf/07-290.pdf

You might read the dissents of Stevens and Breyer signed by all dissenting justices because they recognize PA and VT declared a natural, inherent, inalienable/unalienable right to keep and bear arms for self-defense.

The dissenting justices argued RKBA was not protected by the 2nd Amendment but that means the right declared by PA, VT, and most other states is an un-enumerated right protected by the 9th Amendment.

[defendandprotect]

131. Unless you eliminate the clause, there is no such right to have "arms" ---

for the individual ---

Are you denying that this is a right-wing fascist court?

Do you also understand that the NRA's political activities have supported these fascists?

[jody]

134. Please read the Heller decision because you have no idea what it says. n/t

[defendandprotect]

Unless it says that there is NO OPENING CLAUSE to the 2nd Amendment . . .

then whatever it says is meaningless . . .

Also note that it talks about "arms" --- not "guns" ---

which makes it even more obvious that they didn't intend to have individuals

lugging around canons ---

[slackmaster]

175. Your logic is seriously flawed

If we take the interpretation that right enumerated in the Second Amendment only has meaning with respect to the opening clause, that does NOT mean that people don't have a right to keep and bear arms.

Read the Ninth Amendment some time. It is fundamental to our system of government that all rights exist except those that have been restricted, eliminated, curtailed, etc. through due process.

[beevul]

232. Nobody said that "there is NO OPENING CLAUSE to the 2nd Amendment"...

Nobody said that "there is NO OPENING CLAUSE to the 2nd Amendment"...

People are simply saying that the OPENING CLAUSE does NOT mean what YOU say it does.

[DrCory]

182. What is your characterization...

of the SCOTUS decision regarding Boumediene v. Bush? Right-wing fascist?

[madeline_con]

No they don't.

I knew this post was bound to happen any minute. Ban guns!! ARGH!!!!!

[defendandprotect]

67. Ah . . . how inconvenient for gun lovers that this "accident" happened . . .

so frustrating for the NRA supporter -- !!!

:sarcasm:

[madeline_con]

73. Yeah, I'm SO inconvenienced. n/t

[defendandprotect]

85. "I knew this post was bound to happen any minute. Ban guns!! ARGH!!!!!"

were you saying that you wanted guns "banned" . . . ?????

If so, my apologies --- !

[Pavulon]

21. dropping an egg is an accident..

shooting someone after you fail to identify what you are shooting is criminal. Same as running your mouth on a cell and killing a person with your car is not an accidents.

Accident is a nice way to not feel guilty about what you do.

[tularetom]

10. Sounds like this asshole kid had a bad case of buck fever

or bear fever in this instance.

This is the kind of crap that gives hunters a bad name. And WTF were they thinking to allow people to shoot at bears in an area where people could hike?

Plenty of stupidity all around but it appears the only intelligent party to the whole clusterfuck paid the price.

[NNN0LHI]

34. I've spotted hunters from my car in the Black Hills while the place was crawling with tourists

I think it can safely be done as long as some common sense is used by the hunter.

I don't know what the safety record is there though?

I don't hunt.

Don

[defendandprotect]

70. How many "accidents" waiting to happen . . . ?

[sammythecat]

184. As far as I know

people are allowed to hike in any areas open to hunting, at least that's been my experience in Pennsylvania. I don't generally wander around the woods during deer season here, but I wouldn't want to be forbidden to do so. I'll make that choice myself.

[Kingofalldems]

16. Another gun hick in action

Shoot anything that moves.

[jody]

19. Please define "gun hick". n/t

[brentspeak]

56. In this case, anyone who would fire their gun without knowing what they were firing at

[jody]

101. Are you speaking for kingofalldems? n/t

[Kingofalldems]

188. Gun hicks:

Gun worshipers who will shoot at anything they see. Take a look at road signs along a rural highway and note the bullet holes, evidence of a visit by said gun worshipers.

[jody]

194. Please provide facts that the under-18 hunter in this case has ever shot at road signs or

behaved as a gun worshiper.

I'm betting you can't do either and you are just randomly dumping disparaging phrases for some personal motive.

Do you have a phobia about guns?

[Kingofalldems]

230. Excuse me. Are you defending someone who shot

a person assuming the person was a bear? I don't care how old the kid was, the fact is that kid and many others should not be allowed to own a gun. BTW, I have fired and toted an M-1, M-14 and an M-16. Have also fired a 50 caliber machine gun.

[jody]

242. My question was specific re your calling the hunter a "Gun hick" when the emerging facts are he was

a thoughtful hunter who made a careless mistake.

Would you call a young driver who caused a car crash a "car hick"?

Are you condemning the young hunter before all the facts are known?

[Kingofalldems]

247. A car accident is not even in the same ballpark

as willfully firing a weapon. OK, I will amend my statement. The boy is most likely the son of a gun hick.

[jody]

248. My you are judgmental. Have a nice day and goodbye. n/t

[LanternWaste]

187. Seems pretty damn obvious to me

"anyone who would fire their gun without knowing what they were firing at"


Seems pretty damn obvious to me... :shrug:

[jody]

196. Looks like you and kingofalldems disagree on the definition of gun hick, see #188. n/t

[natrat]

252. pos moron with a gun

[behave]

22. Anyone who would kill a magnificent creature like a bear...

... isn't going to be that remorseful over the killing
of a human being. Sport hunting should be outlawed.

[krispos42]

24. If that is your opinion, there is room for improvement

[behave]

43. True, but not on my part.

[krispos42]

45. Sadly, I think you're absolutely right n/t

[Pavulon]

25. So a bear is equal to human life,

be sure not to kill the spiders, flies, and fleas in your presence.

The person who fired the gun is at fault, they should be prosecuted if possible.

This has nothing to do with hunting, bears, or the price of rice in china.

A person broke the rules governing safe use of firearms. Same as a person who drinks and drives.

Neither is an accident, both are improper use of something capable of causing human death.

[brentspeak]

57. You equate killing a bear with killing spiders and flies???

[Pavulon]

63. its an animal, they are all animals

some are cute, some are not. That position is the foundation of the posters bear is same as human comparison.

Killing an animal is legal and unless you are a vegan pretty much something we all contribute to.

[Raskolnik]

210. I don't agree that an animal is an animal is an animal.

I do think there is a difference between a mammal with a relatively large brain and an insect.

I believe there is also a difference between hunting a bear and hunting a deer, between hunting a goose and hunting a cougar, and between hunting an antelope and hunting an elephant.

I fully concede that at least a portion of the differences are based on my own emotions, but I also believe you can make defensible distinctions between what animals it is morally acceptable to hunt, which are a closer call, and which are morally unaceptable to hunt.

[defendandprotect]

87. Setting out to kill a bear and ending up killing a human being ends up ....

being equal to human life ---

[Pavulon]

93. Bad logic

setting out to kill cancer and ending up killing a patient is now murder...

setting out to get groceries and killing a person crossing the street in black clothes after dark is now murder.

Again this person broke rules. and manslaughter should be considered.

I have been hunting for 20 years, killed plenty of animals, never shot anyone. I have handled machine guns, grenades, and land mines, and not killed any one. Intent and adherence to rules is why.

This person broke rules and violated a common sense thing and killed a person. Simple.

[defendandprotect]

104. Facetious comments ---

Yes, we have had doctors involved in bad medicine --- on purpose ---

We've had people studying cancer and AIDS and other diseases who have

pursued "slash & burn" treatments which they know have little chance

of even improving patients' conditions.

We have had psychiatrists trained to only "mirror" what the patient says -

and not to volunteer anything ---

We've had "murder on the couch" with brutal and inhumane treatments from

shock therapy repeated over and again to psychiatrists examining prisoners

to determine what most frightens them for the benefit of torturers.


And, now evidently this hiker was wearing "black clothes" . . . "after dark" . . .


You have a large need to protect yourself from truth ---

[Pavulon]

107. Missed the point

your thought process linking the act of hunting animals with the death of people is broken.

Under your logic all the thinks listed are reality. You just broke your own argument.

Again, I have been clear, the person who fired a weapon at a target they could not identify is responsible.

To find themselves in that position they broke rules. The hiker had zero responsibility for their death.

I would bet this person had to watch the hiker bleed to death and is now quite aware of what they did.

[defendandprotect]

115. Read what the story is about ---

your thought process linking the act of hunting animals with the death of people is broken.

Notice any similarities --- ?

A boy goes hunting and kills a woman ---


Your thought processes seem to be only open to violent imaginings . . .

I would bet this person had to watch the hiker bleed to death and is now quite aware of what they did.

I said that YOU had a strong need to protect yourself from truth ---

NOT the young boy-hunter --

[Pavulon]

119. Having seen death and suffering

I can only imagine this person is physically sick about what they did.

You get in your car and have an accident, a true accident, and a person dies. Driving is not the same as killing people? Much more common than hunting deaths.

Truth is based on perspective. Your perspective is not the same as mine.

We can agree this was a tragedy that was caused by a person not following the rules and common sense.

[defendandprotect]

122. We need to ensure that hunters are not permitted in these areas --

Whatever adult ever gave this young male a gun is also responsible for giving him

this experience which he will remember for the rest of his life --- sickening!!!

And, why . . . do any of us think that this young boy NEEDED to eat bear?

This boy is a victim of some idiotic adult in his life ---

[Pavulon]

129. Not going to happen

hunters should have access to public land. Not everyone has the means to hunt on private land. If you want to ban hunting just go for that directly. What you propose just bans people who do not have money from hunting.

This is simple, a person broke the rules and killed another person. Lots of people hunt, they follow the rules, no one dies.

[defendandprotect]

132. Hunters should not be anywhere near hikers . . .

Do we really believe that this young man was hunting for "food" . . . ???

Let's just open food pantries to hunters --- and save some lives -- !!!

It's not simple --- guns in cities are costing states heavily -- there will

eventually be great tragedy from the NRA's "Wild West America" . . .

Again --- here's a young boy who didn't follow the rules --- results one hiker dead.

[Pavulon]

135. Your positon is not supported

by the party, state governments or anyone who could actually implement your ideas.

It is simple, people are costing states. People who are not educated, do not have access to mental health care, and who exploit drug laws and choose violence.

Violence can be done with a knife or chemicals you could find in your bathroom. Nations like the UK allow sporting arms, like the one the person used to kill the person here.

Why he is hunting is not relevant to the fact that he killed a person by failing to follow the rules that are expected when weapons are used for any reason. LEO, military, and civilian all have rules surrounding weapons.

When they are broken bad things happen.

Simple works 99% of the time. It works here.

[defendandprotect]

140. People who want an end to guns and gun violence in America . . .

are the majority ---

It is the NRA which has used funds to support fascist legislators and, thereby,

fascist Supreme Court justices ---

What we are looking at are the results of Capitalism --- a ridiculous "King-of-the Hill"

system which is intended to move the wealth and assets of a nation from the many to the

few. And which succeeds quite mightily!

No - GUN VIOLENCE IS COSTING STATES --- More than $40,000 per gun injury ---

The Drug War of course is a sham and furthers violence and the use of guns.
Drug trafficking cannot exist without the cooperation of high level officials
and high level police enforcement.

Nor do I see that the homeless or those in need of medical care are brandishing guns!
Rather they are frequently the victims of the elites in control of government.

Yeah -- and you can hijack four commercial jet liners SIMULTANEOUSLY with a box cutter --!!

Nations like the UK are frequently up against demonstrations to STOP hunting ---

No -- why he was hunting is relevant -- certainly he didn't need bear for "food" ---
This is about the farce of hunting for pleasure --- and what a sickening idea that is!

You keep talking about "rules" but you ignore the fact that rules are often not followed --
this isn't the first hunting death we've ever seen . . . right?

People with guns are subject to human error --- and others suffer for it.

[wvbygod]

180. When guns are outlawed only outlaws will be armed

And if you think it possible to get rid of all the guns I'll believe it when all the
street drugs and crime are gone.

[beevul]

233. Bullshit.

"People who want an end to guns and gun violence in America . . .are the majority"

Please cite polls that show that a clear majority want to "end guns" or "end guns and gun violence"

Keep in mind, that either way, in order to support such utter bullshit, you MUST show a poll that shows that a majority want to "end guns" in America.


Good luck.

I'll hold off showing you the poll that shows that nearly three in four people - 75% nationwide - support the individual rights reading of the second amendment, until then.

[LanternWaste]

191. Some people do actually place a somewhat greater value

Some people (like myself) do actually place a somewhat greater value on the higher levels of mammals than on a mosquito or a roach.

Some people place a somewhat greater value on human beings closest to them than on complete strangers.

Our own life experiences are part and parcel of our value system. Simply because one's value system doesn't necessarily line up with yours does not make them any less valid or any more hypocritical than yours which is what you appear to be implying. It simply makes the values different.

[natrat]

254. how many billions upon billions is this planet overpoppulated by

the idea that humans are somehow better than other mammals is absurd. No of course shooting a person is worse than shooting a deer but humans are nothing special and ultimately have destroyed a god given paradise because of their collective flaws. Humans in fact suck shit, sorry

[Raskolnik]

269. Absurd, indeed.

the idea that humans are somehow better than other mammals is absurd. No of course shooting a person is worse than shooting a deer but humans are nothing special

You are not internally consistent. If the idea that humans are "better" than other mammals is absurd, and humans are nothing special, then why would shooting a person be any worse than shooting a deer (or a field mouse, or a cow, etc.)?

[Iggo]

27. "The accident..."

Um...excuse me? He saw something. He shot at it. And he hit it. That ain't no accident, kids.

[HEyHEY]

33. How the hell do you make that mistake? DU hunters?

Is that a possible mistake to make?

[jody]

36. "a possible mistake to make?" Yes if any hunter ignores the basic rules taught in every hunter

safety course which the under 18 hunter was required to have completed in order to get a license in Washington.

[defendandprotect]

71. And what guarantees did this woman or other hikers have if hunters "break rules" . . .?

If drivers harm someone --- especially if they "break rules" --- we know there are

consequences ---

What are the consequences here?

[Pavulon]

78. The same guarantee you have tomorow

in your car that some ass does not crush your skull while eating an egg mcmuffin and texting someone right through a stop sign.

These things are tragic, but make interesting headlines, so here we sit.

You cant ban guns, even strict controlled regulations permit hunting arms.

A person broke the rules and killed another person, tragic, but not uncommon in cars, hospitals, or other incidents where human error permits death to come from poor choices.

[defendandprotect]

106. You're saying that nothing should change to make things safer for hikers . . ?

That we could see a repeat of this "accident" --- ???

No -- the guy in the car is at the same risk from my driving as I am of his ---
we BOTH have cars ---

This hiker had no gun --

Let's not say that "we can't ban guns" --- life isn't over yet.

And someday, perhaps, those who so enjoy violence will wake up and forsake

the NRA and its aggressive politics which support the GOP and its torturous agenda.

"Interesting headlines" . . . ?

And, sorry, but where people break rules there are consequences --- changes to insure

that these things don't happen again --- the hiker didn't make a "poor choice" ---!!!

[Pavulon]

114. Even nations that ban guns

allow sporting arms. So i will pretty much say never going to happen.

The person driving and following the rules is the hiker or you. Doing nothing wrong.

Then you have a person who is breaking rules, on a cell, eating, and screwing with the radio.

If they kill you it will be an accident. In reality it is not accidental.

The hiker could have had been equipped as an infantryman. It would not matter, being shot by a person they could not see is not impacted by what weapon they may have.

So back to you in a safe 5 series, you took all the steps to be a safe driver and drive a safe car.

Some guy in a 44,000 lb transfer truck runs a light while on the cell and you are still stone dead.

No guarantees are given in this life.

[defendandprotect]

120. Calling hunting a boxed in animal a "sport" is ludicrous ---

and we all know that ....

I see a lot of protective avoidance in your post ---

Again -- two drivers EACH HAVE A CAR --

This was a hiker - NO GUN --- and a teenager WITH A GUN ---

This is a bad mix --- and hunting should be banned in any area where there are hikers.

[Pavulon]

123. or hikers can be banned from all areas...

this whole situation predicated on a person not following the rules for safe use of firearms. The woman could have been carrying a weapon and it would not matter.

With a rifle it is possible she did not hear the shot that killed her. Instant death.

In my comparison you have a car, the other a transfer truck.

You loose every time, same as with an aimed rifle shot.

Who is talking about a boxed in animal? Where is that mentioned?

Your opinion of hunting does not impact the reality at work here.

[defendandprotect]

126. Maybe you want to get the NRA working on banning hikers from hiking trails -!!!

Why would you suggest that "the woman could have been carrying a weapon . . ."

Where is your mind traveling to in avoidance of truth?


Any animal "hunted" with a weapon is of course "boxed in" ---

there is no "sport" involved --- that's ludicrous.

[Pavulon]

133. Do you actually read posts

she could have had an infantry division and air support. Would make no difference with an aimed rifle shot from a person she never saw.

Never suggested sport. Dont care what it is called. If I shoot an animal it is for the purpose of killing it for food.

The most efficient way to do that is with a high powered rifle with a scope.

Again we will not see eye to eye here, I share space as a hunter and backpacker. No one needs to be banned. That is reactionary and silly.

This is all based on people not following rules.

[defendandprotect]

142. How about we open food pantries for you . . .

or would this still be a question of your needing to kill something for lunch?

Yes --- unfortunately --- we do need to protect hikers ---

and certainly not hunters ---

There should never be hunting in an area where there are people in peaceful pursuit ---

[countryjake]

156. Not many food pantries up in Concrete...

and hunting for food in the Mt. Baker National Forest has been standard practice for lots of people around here for a long time.

Hey, I don't like hunting, either, but the fact is that it's a way of life up here in our wilderness. Bear Season just opened right before this incident took place, the shooter was a kid, fourteen, and I'd venture a guess that he was raised up on bear meat, deer, elk...that's the content of most freezers upriver here. We have high unemployment in this county and there is nothing up around Concrete, where this happened, so please don't be so quick to judge when people go out in the woods searching for food.

Myself, I don't tromp around without a bright red shirt, anytime, anywhere, in these mountains, cause we also have poachers year round. I don't go in the woods by our home without "color", for the same reason. Peaceful pursuit is fine and good, but common sense goes a long way surviving in wilderness areas. One of the main areas around here that you'd be likely to run into a bear hunter is exactly where this woman was killed...on Sauk Mt. I don't know anyone who didn't know that Bear Season opened Saturday and Rockport State Park is the haven for "outdoorsmen", heading up Sauk to bag a big one. It's an unfortunate tragedy that this happened, but condemning as you are does nothing to bring that hiker back or stop people from feeding their families by hunting.

[defendandprotect]

204. This looks like a clear signal that the practice should be ended ---

and some CARE packages sent in ---

[Raskolnik]

207. You would have people be dependent on charity

rather than allow them to hunt and fish for their own food?

[defendandprotect]

209. When the lives of others are involved --- yes!

If charity can save lives --- let's go for it!

[Raskolnik]

211. How many people die each year in hunting accidents?

I am willing to bet that you have absolutely no idea.

[natrat]

257. yes

[Raskolnik]

259. Would you ban all hunting and fishing?

[countryjake]

217. Sorry, we have hundreds-year-old treaties that keep the US government out...

of deciding who hunts and fishes or whether the Upper Skagit peoples can use firearms to bring in food or where they may be permitted to hunt. So you're wasting breath trying to condemn a way of life that has enabled a culture to survive for centuries up here. Upriver folk don't need white CARE packages with processed, poison federal foodstuffs, they need more to recognize that these hills sustain life, when treated properly, with a deep respect for the nature that abounds here.

You have no idea of the area on which you've based your hysterical and condemning comments, just an irrational belief that anyone who may wish to kill their own food has twisted motives or that using a gun is inherently evil. Hunting is a custom in the uplands of the Skagit River Valley that goes back much further than any nation you might bow to and surely you don't expect your fanciful notions to be taken seriously.

No need to respond...I can see that you're intent on using this tragedy as yet another reason to insert government control on the people of this lost nation you call home.

Me, I'll always believe that one of the first signs of fascism in any country is the disarming of its citizens and that is a fact that you will never be able to scream down.

[Paladin]

231. You're Blaming The Victim, And You Ought To Be Ashamed

No matter what kind of feeble, fur-bearing justifications you want to offer up---the oh-so-sacred wilderness lifestyle of Sauk Mt., the opening of bear season which everybody supposedly knew about, not wearing the proper Please Don't Shoot Me attire, not having sufficient common sense---you're doing your best to shift the blame for this tragedy to the woman who got shot, and that's contemptible.

[countryjake]

236. I'm not ashamed of any of the explanations I've offered here...

especially to those who use tragic mistakes, like this one hunting accident, as an opportunity to condemn all gun-owners and rant for government confiscation of any and all firearms and call for an end to hunting, such as the poster I'd responded to has done in this topic.

I place the blame squarely on the boy who didn't properly identify exactly what he was firing on, but the circumstances that brought about this tragedy most certainly do have a bearing on any positive changes that may occur, as a consequence.

I've hiked for decades in these Cascade hills and forests (not hunted!). I have a healthy respect for the nature of our mountains and also for those who might walk these trails with me and I take the proper precautions, as necessary. I haven't said anywhere that the victim in this incident had not taken those same precautions...I'd guess that she did, as she was familiar with the Sauk trails, was an experienced hiker, and had gone up the peak before.

I'm betting that what she would hate to see, as a result of her death, is the restriction of hiking in this area, due to "open seasons" and their inevitable mingling of hunters and hikers in our National forest. One reckless kid, no matter how grave his mistake, should not be the cause of restrictive laws that would have tremendous impact on the use and enjoyment so many find in our wilderness.

None of the people up on Sauk were doing anything wrong or illegal last Saturday morning...not that I know of, anyway. The fourteen-year old then broke a cardinal rule of hunting safety and now will live with his mistake forever, with Ms. Almli struck dead by his bullet. I happen to hold great sympathy for both parties, that is all.

[natrat]

260. how about blaming a gun obsessed culture that likes to kill things

[beevul]

154. You CLEARLY know zip zilch nadda...

You CLEARLY know zip zilch nadda about hunting.

"Any animal "hunted" with a weapon is of course "boxed in" ---"


No person could say something so absurd, unless they had absolutely no practical knowledge whatsoever about hunting.


Pretty obvious to me, and I am not even a hunter.

[Dimensio0]

170. I am curious.

Do you have any rational argument in support of your position, or do you believe that invective and hyperbole are sufficient? For example, are you so irrational as to actually believe that banning all firearms ownership is a reasonable position?

[jody]

100. Wait and find out. n/t

[Pavulon]

37. You break rules and common sense

things like do not fire a weapon at something you have not identified. I have hunted for many years and there is no way to do this without compromising the rules. Shooting at shadows, shooting without a backstop are known bad.

These rules are in the manuals that come with weapons and are common sense.

Basically these things are not accidents, they are manslaughter. If alcohol was involved it is murder.

[slackmaster]

168. Without a photo of the woman wearing whatever she was when she was shot

It's pretty hard to say. If she weighed 450 pounds and was crawling on the ground dressed in a bearskin coat, it would be a little easier to see it as something other than a negligent shot.

I know I always try to wear something bright, like blaze orange, when my hiking takes me in the vicinity of hunting areas.

[Runcible Spoon]

41. am wondering if alcohol was involved.

in my hometown (Upstate NY), there seem to be accidental shootings of dogs, horses, and even people almost every fucking year. I can tell you, having hung around the tavern where most of the seasonal yahoo hunters hang out, not much of that hunting is done sober. Not to rail on all hunters, but even ONE drunk person with a gun is a travesty, and the culture of acceptance is just mind boggling.

[SOS]

59. Good point

Breathalyser tests should be mandatory in these cases.
Just like a DWI.
Increase the charge to involuntary manslaughter if drunk.

[MrSlayer]

48. Do people eat bears?

And how does one mistake a person for a bear? This story makes no sense.

[jody]

51. People do eat eat bear meat and the story is incomplete. n/t

[MrSlayer]

52. I can't imagine it's very good.

One must be pretty hard up for food if they're eating bears.

[jody]

54. People eat cows, hogs, horses, sheep, goats, whale, seal, dogs, cats, & all types of animals.

It depends upon what one is accustomed to eat including vegetarians.

[MrSlayer]

61. Fair enough.

It just seems easier to go down to the butcher and buy a few steaks than to go killing bears for food.

[jody]

69. That's probably true for many hunters but those who love to hunt in most cases also enjoy eating the

animals they kill as do those who fish enjoy eating the fish they catch.

Given the cost of boat and equipment used by many who fish for bass, they could save money by eating at the local seafood restaurant.

[defendandprotect]

75. This is more like animal abuse than "hunting" --- how could anyone

describe this with a straight face as "sport" --?

[Maine-ah]

79. my husband goes bass fishing

in a canoe. (bought 2nd hand for 100 bucks a few years ago) he does catch and release. But if he were to bring it home, it would be way cheaper than eating out at a seafood restaurant, where the average cost for a meal is about 20 bucks.

[defendandprotect]

91. Sounds peaceful enough . . .

no hikers threatened by that ---

[snooper2]

258. Oh, it's extremely dangerous..

You ever get a hook in the back of the neck from someone who doesn't know how to cast?

That should be a felony right there..AND they better fucking check to see if that person was drinking :rofl:

[DrCory]

264. Catch and Release...

Is far from peaceful for the fish. How can being ripped from your element by a metal hook be peaceful? Your apparent acceptance of "catch and release" seems inconsistent.

[2KS2KHonda]

171. I'd never kill a bear unless I was starving but many of us prefer to eat meat (e.g. deer) that

hasn't been artificially fattened on corn, pumped full of antibiotics and processed in a place we have never seen, let alone have no control over.

[snooper2]

256. Monkeys too...

Don't forget the live monkey brains!

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

[Maine-ah]

74. most of the hunters up here either eat, or sell (or some of both) the meat

of whatever it is they are hunting. Better for you than the shit on the grocery store shelves that is packed with hormones and chemicals. People around here don't waste what they kill either. In some cases the animal can provide enought meat for a family to eat for the winter.

[MrSlayer]

150. I don't think wild bear would be better for me than pure cornfed beef.

I don't eat supermarket slop, I only eat the good stuff. And there is no chance someone will accidentally get killed during my purchase. I can see living off the land if you are poor and have no choice, it makes sense. It doesn't make sense if you have other options. I know a lot of city dwelling hunters and they just like to kill things. They don't have to do it, they just want to do it.

[2KS2KHonda]

174. Cornfed beef is about as unnatural as it gets. Bovines eat grass.

You think buffalo ate corn...before there was any on this continent?
:eyes:

[Raskolnik]

190. You think cornfed beef is "pure?"

I can see living off the land if you are poor and have no choice, it makes sense. It doesn't make sense if you have other options.

It makes sense in a lot of ways. Mass-produced pure cornfed beef is horrible for the environment and not particularly kind to the cattle--the reason your "good stuff" is shot full of antibiotics is because cattle subjected to living in a feedlot on an unnatural diet of corn die without *massive* amounts of antibiotcs pumped into it. I can guarantee that a deer killed by an ethical hunter suffers a tiny fraction of what factory cattle endure.

And I'm no fan of bear-hunting in general, but sport hunting/fishing is what keeps a lot of our natural areas protected and funded.

[depakid]

161. People rarely if ever eat bear in the Northwest

It's nasty, greasy, gristly stuff. The jerky is palatable- but I wouldn't recommend it.

Then, there's the trichonella....

Most people are after the trophy- or the gall bladder, which is used in chinese "medicine."

[Xithras]

266. Bear meat is very greasy and doesn't taste all that good.

Yes, I had a little many years ago. It would be acceptable if you needed to ward off starvation, but I honestly don't get why people would willingly hunt them for meat. Like most meat eaters, bear just doesn't taste very good.

Deer, on the other hand, is the greatest meat on earth. Much better than cow.

[Runcible Spoon]

103. eating unsourced wild bear meat is really not a good idea, nor top end predator flesh in general.

unless you like high chances of contracting any number of nasty parasitic infections.

[RamboLiberal]

49. According to this story the hunter was 14

Investigators said one of the hunters, a 14-year-old male from Concrete, spotted what he thought was a bear and fired a round, fatally wounding Almli.

Deputies said a preliminary investigation indicates that Almli was stopped on the trail putting something into her backpack when the hunter mistook her for a bear.

The incident happened along Highway 20 west of Rockport. Reichardt said it’s legal to hunt bear in that area and it’s also a popular hiking area. It's unclear how the mountain is marked in terms of hunting season signs and hiking trails.

The hunter was accompanied by at least one other person, police said.

Police said no one is currently in custody and they continue to interview the hunter.

http://www.kirotv.com/news/17075002/detail.html

What a tragedy that shouldn't have happened. The adult with the youth IMHO is more guilty for not making sure the young hunter could see that it positively was a bear.

I'm not anti-hunting but I know I wouldn't want to be in the woods when there are hunters in the area. I don't think summer is a good season to allow hunting.

[Skittles]

53. ever heard of "shooting anything that moves" ?

no doubt the young one learned from watching the older one

[LisaL]

77. Ever been around teenagers?

Do they always listen to you and do as they are told?

[madeline_con]

80. That's why some of them shouldn't be armed.

[LisaL]

86. Why only some?

Why should a 14 year old be able to get a gun and go hunting at bears, when he couldn't buy a beer?

[madeline_con]

92. Because some can't be trusted with a sharp pencil.

I wouldn't personally want to shoot an animal, but some people like to hunt, and believe it or not, some 14 y.o. actually own and use firearms responsibly.

What does being old enough to buy beer have to do with it?

[Skittles]

98. Ignore is your friend, madeline

useful on complete idiots

[madeline_con]

112. Ignore? Perish the thought! n/t

[Name removed]

113. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[CRF450]

130. self delete

woops

[LisaL]

82. You don't know that the adult had time to do anything.

By the way, he would need a license to drive. What does he need to a get gun and go shoot at bears, or in this case, a woman?
He can't legally drink until 21, but he can get a rifle and go shooting? How does it even make sense?

[Pavulon]

88. In this state

he would be required to complete a week of safety course. I assume they teach you not to shoot at something you cant identify as a valid target. He would require a license from fish and game. he would be required to have an adult with him to carry a rifle.

[LisaL]

89. Well, if he did take this course, it sure didn't seem to work.

[Pavulon]

96. Like drivers ed, cant fix stupid

dumb asses are out there killing in mass every day with cars. Ride a motorcycle and it becomes flagrantly visible.

However this is a case of a person violating rules and killing a person. manslaughter covers this type of thing.

It should cover much more. People never want to own up to their actions, accidents are very rare.

Negligence is not.

[RamboLiberal]

145. And that's why I put a lot of blame on the adult

I know at that age he's required to be hunting with an adult. Yes it's on the young hunter to be absolutely sure what he is shooting at and he's been taught that in hunter's education to get his license, but the adult is there to supervise and to be absolutely sure the young hunter is shooting at game and not some innocent person or livestock or pets.

[LisaL]

271. Turns out there was no adult present.

[cherokeeprogressive]

125. The adult is at fault. You are absolutely correct.

I know that because when I was young and would be hunting with my dad, NOT in an area where there were hikers by the way, the often stated rule was "You even touch that safety without my permission and I'll beat your ass with the rifle itself". And he would have. He told me when to release the safety, and when to put my finger inside the trigger guard. Lastly, you can be DAMN SURE that I didn't pull the trigger until he was looking at my intended target. There is a definite sequence of events that needs to take place in order to conduct a safe hunt and whoever was in charge here didn't have a clear understanding of that concept at all.

Tragedy. Not a gun issue, but tragedy nevertheless.

[flvegan]

84. No. Hiker shot by trigger happy idiot with a gun.

Mistaking a person for a bear? What a fucking idiot. No visual confirmation before squeezing one off? Whatever.

My only question is was this a trophy hunt or a food hunt?

[likesmountains 52]

90. I'm not a hunter, but before you shoot at something don't you have to kind of

look at it to make sure that your bullet is going to hit the object? I'm really not trying to be snarky...I just don't understand how you can just shoot at a noise, or a rustling..

[madeline_con]

95. Theoretically, but this is another instance where someone

with a firearm fucked up and din't use common sense. It's a shame some posters want to take firearms from the rest of us because of it. :(

[likesmountains 52]

148. But how do you make sure that only careful hunters are out there with loaded

weapons? As a hiker, this is a basic question about safety and responsibility. We have mandatory hunter safety courses in my state, but I'm not sure it's enough.

[madeline_con]

149. One article mentioned uncertainty about hiking and hunting areas

being delineated. There will always be the lone dufus who screws up, and that's the sad truth. :(

[Raskolnik]

195. You can't guarantee hunters will act safely & responsibly 100% of the time

any more than you can guarantee that a licensed driver won't drive like an idiot at some point and put others at risk or that a chef won't be careless and poison a bunch of people.

There are no guarantees.

[aikoaiko]

118. Violated rule four

There are so easy.

1. All guns are always loaded. Even if they are not, treat them as if they are.

2. Never let the muzzle cover anything you are not willing to destroy. (For those who insist that this particular gun is unloaded, see Rule 1.)

3. Keep your finger off the trigger till your sights are on the target. This is the Golden Rule. Its violation is directly responsible for about 60 percent of inadvertent discharges.

4. Identify your target, and what is behind it. Never shoot at anything that you have not positively identified.

[mitchum]

136. Why in the hell does anyone hunt bear?

Do they dress it out and eat it? Have a freezer full of it like venison?

[HEyHEY]

189. bear sausage I think is the big one

[alphafemale]

138. He should have just hacked off ger head. Then he'd have gotten some sympathy here. nt

[dysfunctional press]

141. ok- who's the smartass that's been arming the bears...? aren't they dangerous enough already?

or should i read more than the subject line before replying?

[greendog]

144. Anyone who's willing to shoot at something that they've not positively...

...identified is dangerous and should be locked up for a long time. YOU pull the trigger, YOU'RE responsible for the results.

[RamboLiberal]

146. It's a negligent accident - I don't think locking up the kid

is going to do anything but perhaps turn him in to a real criminal. I feel bad for both families.

I'd make sure both the kid and the adult with him were never allowed to hunt again or have a firearm.

[greendog]

147. Lock both of them up. The kid and his parent.

I don't feel a bit sorry for them.

I live in Montana. I've seen a lot of bears. Not a single one of them looks ANYTHING like a 54 year old woman.

If you point a gun at someone and pull the trigger, it's NOT an accident.

[RamboLiberal]

152. And will that bring back this woman's life?

So why ruin this kid's life any more than he's already ruined it? Jail might only turn this kid in to a real criminal.

I'd rather see this kid put in community service for a long time. And the adult I think I'd have him mopping the ER floor for a very long time.

[greendog]

163. It damn well might save other lives.

If it was understood that people running around in the woods with firearms would pay a serious penalty for their "mistakes" there would be fewer mistakes.

[RamboLiberal]

273. Oh yeah - sure helps keep all the murderers off the street

Better thing would be to make this kid go to every hunter safety class, every sportsman's club, etc., to tell his story. Give out a DVD with every hunting license with careless hunters telling the story. That would better serve the purpose of hunter safety than jailing this kid and the story forgotten.

[greendog]

280. That'll send a GREAT message...

Let all the hunters know they can be irresponsible fuckwits and get off with a slap on the wrist.

FUCKING BRILLIANT! With each and every hunting license you can blow away one hiker. <<< Get Out Of Jail Free >>>

Let him make his DVD from behind bars. Let him update it every year till his hair turns gray.

[CRF450]

153. Its not as if he clearly saw the woman

I take it that he couldn't clearly see her, and miss-took her as possibly a black bear because she was wearing black clothes. Its a very unfortunate accident but the teen is clearly at fault for not identifying his target before taking the shot.

[pinniped]

151. The poor kid was just trying to become a man by blasting an innocent bear.

I want to know at what range the killer fired the fatal shot.

[countryjake]

155. About 120 yards, on very steep terrain...

http://www.goskagit.com/home/article/young_bear_hunter_kills_hiker_by_mistake/

[Wizard777]

160. I'm guessing you've never encountered a bear outside of Disney World.

1) Don't try to pet it.
2) Don't climb a tree to get away from it.
3) If you don't have a gun always rundown hill. You only have to coordinate two legs. The bear has to coordinate four legs and has twice the chance of tripping that you do. If the bear catches you play dead. They won't eat carrion.
5) If you do have a gun. Shoot the damned thing before it eats you!

[Xithras]

268. I've encountered plenty.

Unless there are cubs around, black bears will always run away. ALWAYS. If there ARE cubs around, black bears will simply be interested in neutralizing you as a threat. While you cannot outrun a black bear over long distances, getting even 50 yards away is usually enough to get it to leave you alone. Black bears don't care about people and don't see us as food, so their only interest is in protecting their cubs.

Brown bears are a different story. A non-hungry brown bear will usually ignore you and leave you alone if you make yourself look big and present yourself as a threat. They don't want to fight if it isn't needed. A hungry brown bear can't be dissuaded with anything other than a .45. A a brown bear with a cub will kill you just for looking at it. Oh, and brown bears aren't above eating carrion, so playing dead won't work.

[depakid]

158. Criminally negligent homicide

Reckon that ought to be worth a couple of years in prison.

[dems_rightnow]

162. It might

But the chance of a 14-year-old going to prison aren't very high in this case. Tragic situation.

[ThomWV]

165. Folks - I have no idea how it is out west but - Hunting Seasons in summer?

I don't want to pop anyone bubble but it would suprise me a great deal to find out that there was a Bear season in August anywhere in the country. The guy may have been hunting bears, but I doubt very much that he was doing so legally.

[dems_rightnow]

166. Looks like it begins August 1

In most places in Washington State.


http://wdfw.wa.gov/wlm/game/seasons.htm

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

169. I'm still waiting for "Hunter shot by bear", or deer, or rabbit.

[Raskolnik]

201. Why?

[ThomWV]

202. Well, that's a particularly childish thing to say

Are you still waiting for the tooth fairy too?

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

208. I find hunting for sport a particularly childish thing to do.

It would be nice if the victims could fight back.

[Raskolnik]

212. What about hunting makes it "childish?"

It sure as hell beats having factory farms kill your meat for you.

[LostInAnomie]

183. Is it just me, or does it seem odd to have hiking trails where...

... bears are prevalent enough to be hunted?

I'll never understand how things like this happen. If your purpose for hunting is simply a trophy (which 95% of all hunting is in my opinion), why would you not wait until you have clearly identified the animal and have a clear shot. Why the hell would you just fire at the first large thing that moves and hope for the best. It's not like you are starving and need the meat. Why shoot blindly?

[maxsolomon]

186. Ummm..., hiking trails are everywhere out here

the national forest IS bear country.

hell, we had bears IN SEATTLE last summer.

[slackmaster]

216. No, not at all - The best hiking is where there are wild animals

My preference is for protected areas like California state parks and national parks where hunting is prohibited. The animals are less likely to be spooked by humans. I have been surrounded by herds of deer on several occasions in Sequoia National Park.

[LanternWaste]

193. Great... one less place to enjoy the outdoors.

Great... one less place for me to enjoy the outdoors-- as I'll be damned if I willingly and knowingly go hiking in the same vicinity that the owners of fire arms frequent.

[slackmaster]

197. Are you going to cross off "North of the Canadian border" or just "Alaska"

:rofl:

[LanternWaste]

198. Probably both

Probably both as I don't like back bacon, Rush, or long nights.... :evilgrin:

[2KS2KHonda]

206. I'm sure the bears love to have you tramping through their habitat.

Oh, wait, that's "different"...
:eyes:

[ZombieHorde]

228. I would rather have some stranger come into my house and then leave...

over coming into my house, shoot someone, and then leave with the body.

[LanternWaste]

262. I'm not shooting anything or anyone.

Oh, wait, that's "different"...

Well, yeah-- I'm not shooting anything or anyone.

(As an aside, what a disingenuous, bullshit post of yours...)

[Catherine Vincent]

205. This is what I always fear.

Someone is hiking or camping and some hunter shoots an innocent hiker or camper mistaking them for some animal.

Sad.

[slackmaster]

215. That's why you should always wear something like this...

Or this...



And not something like this...



Or this...



When traveling in areas where hunters may be present.

[jody]

226. slackmaster, you've grown a beard!

:hi: jody

[slackmaster]

246. That's not me but I do sport a goatee

:hi:

[countryjake]

218. Small Update to the story...14-yr old was not with an adult at time of the shooting...

he was with his big brother (a 17-yr old). This happened in my neck of the woods and I've heard this thru the grapevine, but I'm sure it'll be evening news, as so many seem to want to turn this tragedy into a vendetta against hunting of any kind.

The kids come from a family of experienced, extremely safety-conscious hunters. What happened up on Sauk Mt. has been devastating to both the family of the victim and to the boy who killed her.

[jody]

223. Thanks for the update. n/t

[jody]

225. WA hunting regs says "Youth: Under 16 years of age." and apparently an adult must accompany a youth

only during moose hunts.

See WA regs at http://wdfw.wa.gov/wlm/game/hunter/huntregs2008.pdf

Is that correct?

[countryjake]

237. Yup. Both boys had taken & passed the safety test required for a license...

so they were perfectly legal hunting bear that day. The boy's reckless discharge may be something to charge him with, but considering the mist we had here that morning, I doubt they'd even slap him with that (tho, I haven't heard any verification yet that the shooting occurred above the haze...they were up pretty high there and even when the flats are socked in, it can be clear as a bell up the hills).


(edited to add link)

It was foggy up there that morning. Here is a good video report that shows exactly where it happened.

http://www.king5.com/topstories/stories/NW_080408WAB_hunting_fatal_accident_TP.151051cb.html

[jody]

240. Thanks. n/t

[mitchum]

235. "The kids come from a family of experienced, extremely safety-conscious hunters"...

well, then it's damn tragic that one of the kids did not carry on the family tradition
his negligence = death for someone else

[snooper2]

261. Oh, that won't stop the hunting nazis..

But they will still stop by McFatstop on the way home and eat their processed McChicken :)

[Gato Moteado]

222. maybe the kid knew what he was doing.....maybe he was sport hunting for humans....

...or maybe he planned on eating her.

seriously, though, i think the kid has definitely suffered from this and i would bet he'll never pick up another gun as long as he lives.

i don't think the kid should go to jail, as some suggest here.

i agree with those that say sport hunting is a stupid thing, though.

killing bears, or any predators, is foolish. killing anything for fun is barbaric.

i do understand why people like to hunt deer for meat without hormones and antibiotics.

i also understand why other people are disgusted by hunting and by the slaughtering of cows, pigs or chickens and they become vegetarians.

i'd like to beat my addiction to red meat and go vegetarian. i'm trying.

i have properties with endangered species roaming around. there are poachers that like to come onto my properties and kill (for food and fun) protected animals like pacas, agoutis, monkeys, and just about anything else. i know the difference between legal, responsible hunters and poachers. hunting is illegal here so all hunters are poachers. when i am living on my forest properties and a poacher enters my land i will release my dogs with the intent of causing harm to the poachers and their dogs. if that doesn't work i will use whatever force necessary to remove an armed trespasser on my property that endangers my safety and the safety of the animals i am trying to protect.

[cbc5g]

239. Guys Guys lets have sympathy for the killer, he may be mentally ill

:eyes: :eyes: :eyes:

25-life there is no excuse for mistaking a human for a bear.

[Barack_America]

244. Appears the boys were hunting the trail, but that the trail was in a designated hunting area...

Police: Boy who killed woman while hunting was not with adult

MOUNT VERNON, Wash. -- The 14-year-old boy who killed a woman while hunting Saturday in the Sauk Mountain area was not with an adult, sheriff's officials said Monday.

Skagit County Sheriff Chief Deputy Will Reichardt said the boy was with his 16-year-old brother on a ledge looking down onto a hiking trail when Pamela Almli stopped on the trail to put something into her backpack. The 14-year-old boy mistook her for a bear and fired one shot, which killed her, Reichardt said.

Reichardt said visibility was low that morning due to some fog in the area.

Reichardt said their investigation determined that the boys' grandfather dropped them off in the area of Sauk Mountain near Rockport Saturday morning. The grandfather may have then been waiting for them at the foot of the mountain, but was not with them at the time of the shooting, Reichardt said.

-snip-

It is legal to hunt at any age, and investigators said the two boys had passed a safety test, were properly licensed, and were in a designated hunting area.

http://www.komonews.com/news/26254529.html


Anyone else have a problem with designated hunting and hiking areas overlapping in areas with known visibility issues? I do wonder if they realized they were looking at a hiking trail. If they did, and still fired without using binoculars to identify the target, then I hope charges would be filed.

[Barack_America]

245. Link to video:

http://www.king5.com/topstories/stories/NW_080408WAB_hunting_fatal_accident_TP.151051cb.html

New details:

-The boys had taken the same hiking trail and were just a bit further ahead from the victim.

-The victim was wearing a bright-blue rain poncho.

:wtf:

[countryjake]

249. Here's another video from last night's news...2nd degree manslaughter is being considered

This is from the local CBS channel:

http://www.kirotv.com/video/17093828/index.html


Note the visibility conditions on the mountain, shown in this video.

[LisaL]

270. I also have a problem with a 14 year old being able to hunt

without adult supervision. WTF comes up with those laws?

[dtotire]

263. Tom Lehrer's Hunting Song

8. The Hunting Song

Almost every day during the hunting season you see at least one item in the newspapers about somebody who has shot somebody else, under the impression that he was a deer with a red hat, perhaps. Maybe a large flesh-colored squirrel. At any rate, it seems to me that this marks an encouraging new trend in the field of blood sports, and deserves a new type of hunting song which I present herewith.

I always will remember,
'Twas a year ago November,
I went out to hunt some deer
On a morning bright and clear.
I went and shot the maximum the game laws would allow:
Two game wardens, seven hunters, and a cow.

I was in no mood to trifle,
I took down my trusty rifle
And went out to stalk my prey.
What a haul I made that day!
I tied them to my fender, and I drove them home somehow:
Two game wardens, seven hunters, and a cow.

The law was very firm, it
Took away my permit,
The worst punishment I ever endured.
It turned out there was a reason,
Cows were out of season,
And one of the hunters wasn't insured.

People ask me how I do it,
And I say "There's nothin' to it,
You just stand there lookin' cute,
And when something moves, you shoot!"
And there's ten stuffed heads in my trophy room right now:
Two game wardens, seven hunters, and a pure-bred Guernsey cow.

[tburnsten]

265. heartbreaking, it doesn't pay to be hasty

The young one who mistakenly shot her has now locked in a lifetime of sorrow, and snuffed a light from the world through carelessness and impatience.

Shooters, always check your targets and backstops.

[jody]

274. Murder in the first degree, Revised Code of Washington, RCW 9A.32.030

RCW 9A.32.030 Murder in the first degree

(1) A person is guilty of murder in the first degree when:

(a) With a premeditated intent to cause the death of another person, he or she causes the death of such person or of a third person; or

(b) Under circumstances manifesting an extreme indifference to human life, he or she engages in conduct which creates a grave risk of death to any person, and thereby causes the death of a person; or

(c) He or she commits or attempts to commit the crime of either (1) robbery in the first or second degree, (2) rape in the first or second degree, (3) burglary in the first degree, (4) arson in the first or second degree, or (5) kidnapping in the first or second degree, and in the course of or in furtherance of such crime or in immediate flight therefrom, he or she, or another participant, causes the death of a person other than one of the participants: Except that in any prosecution under this subdivision (1)(c) in which the defendant was not the only participant in the underlying crime, if established by the defendant by a preponderance of the evidence, it is a defense that the defendant:

Nothing in the incident so far in any way supports a cry for prosecution as first degree murder as called for by some in this thread.

[DailyGrind51]

278. Where is the NRA opinion that, "If the hiker had been pakin', he could have returned fire!"