"The Ripist" Speaks; FBI Coaching is "Duley" noted.

[robertpaulsen]

Tuesday, August 5, 2008

"The Ripist" Speaks; FBI Coaching is "Duley" noted.

Thank you Glenn Greenwald, Larisa Alexandrovna and all the vigilant watchdogs over at Democratic Underground for all your probing. It was Glenn Greenwald's great piece today:

http://www.salon.com/opinion/greenwald/2008/08/05/anthrax/index.html?source=rss

That led me to the testimony regarding the peace order that Ivin's "theripist" Jean Duley was seeking:


Ivins was supposed to have a permanent commitment hearing at Sheppard Pratt, but Duley said his attorney advised him to check himself in voluntarily so that he may leave when he wished. Drawbaugh told the court he probably was being released from the hospital as the hearing was going on. --

She decided to get the peace order after an FBI agent working the case suggested it.

Drawbaugh: "At this time, Ms. Duley, are you fearful for your personal safety?"

Duley: "I am and so is the FBI."

Drawbaugh: "OK. And can you tell the court why it is based on what you have testified to during the course of since July 9 that you are fearful of your safety?"

Duley: "As far back as the year 2000, the respondent has actually attempted to murder several other people either through poisoning. He is a revenge killer. When he feels he that he has been slighted or has had ... especially towards women ... he plots and actually tries to carry out revenge killing. He has been forensically diagnosed by several top psychiatrists as a sociopathic homicidal killer."

Roberts granted the temporary peace order and set a hearing for a final peace order Thursday -- a day before Duley was set to testify against Ivins before a federal grand jury. The court ordered Ivins not to abuse or contact Duley or go to her home or job. The order was dismissed Thursday after Ivins' apparent suicide.

http://www.fredericknewspost.com/sections/news/display.htm?StoryID=78406

My initial questions: She's fearful of her safety since July 9, yet she doesn't file for a peace order until the FBI tells her to?! He's attempted to murder several people through poisoning since 2000? Did he just happen to slip that nugget to her and neglect to mention "Oh, by the way, I mailed out all that anthrax after 9/11 too"? Or did she find that out from those "several top psychiatrists"?

Puhleeze. I want to know if there is one sentence she uttered that wasn't coached out of her by the FBI.

Then I checked back with a fantastic thread started by autorank on DU:

Anthrax, Bruce Ivins Case Research-Resource Thread - Update & Rate Please
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x3728633

In post 115, autorank has a great comment on the story:

From your link to the Frederick Post story above -

Ivins and hospitalization:

"Ivins was supposed to have a permanent commitment hearing at Sheppard Pratt, but Duley said his (Ivins) attorney advised him to check himself in voluntarily so that he may leave when he wished. Drawbaugh told the court he probably was being released from the hospital as the hearing was going on. --

"This is wrong, lacks any logic. You don't "check" yourself in to preserve the option to leave - IF YOU ARE A DANGER TO SELF AND OTHERS. That's the law everywhere. If there was a worry on Ivins and/or his attorney's part that he'd be detained once in the hospital, the voluntary or involuntary commitment would not be the issue. The issue would focus on the evaluation that took place. The fact that Ivins checked in, understandable given the intensity of the pressure, could be an argument in favor of his mental stability, e.g., 'he was so confident that he wasn't unstable, he checked himself into a major psychiatric hospital knowing that they'd release him after a respite period.'

That's what's bothersome about so much with Duley, it just doesn't make a lot of sense. By the logic of Duley's statement from Frederick paper, we would have this situation: Ivins voluntarily checks himself in at Shepard Pratt. They decide that he is all those things that she says he is. They want him to stay but Ivins says, 'Sorry, you can't make me do that since I checked myself in voluntarily which means, NO MATTER WHAT YOU FOUND ABOUT ME, I get to leave since I voluntarily admitted myself.'

And what's a "permanent commmittment?" You are given a life sentence in psychiatric care. People do get better. So by Duley's logic - Ivins is "permanently committed." He has a total recovery. They decide it was some chemical that caused a temporary break. But they can't let him go since he's "permanently committed." Give me a break!


In response to this, sfexpat2000 and suffragette refer to a thread with links to the audiotapes of Duley's testimony and the revelation that where Bruce Ivins was concerned, "she was helping the FBI FRAME HIM"-!!!

Most of reporting uncritically based on Duley's restraining order hearing audio
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x3724189

To quote vickiss on a thread I started, "Do all government employees below the WH level have the same middle name? Patsy?"

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x3730203

The plot thickens...

http://americanjudas.blogspot.com/2008/08/ripist-speaks-fbi-coaching-is-duley.html

[seemslikeadream]

1. don't miss this

:hi:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=3734640&mesg_id=3734640

[robertpaulsen]

2. Thanks! I'll bookmark that one for sure!

:hi:

[Ichingcarpenter]

3. She is a stooge for the FBI and an easy target for psychological manipulation

considering her past background of DUIs and other questionable statements
and actions.

I'm glad this debunking is being done by the many great bloggers.

[EFerrari]

4. When you are truly "scared to death", the last thing you want to do

is to go to a public place and talk about it. :shrug:

[Supersedeas]

5. an FBI agent working on the case SUGGESTED it - what else did the FBI 'suggest'?

[suffragette]

6. You may want to cite Creighton at opednews

for the quote "she was helping the FBI FRAME HIM"-!!!
It's from "The FBI's New Patsy: Jean Duley" at http://www.opednews.com/maxwrite/diarypage.php?did=8440
If not for his piece,I might not have so closely listened to the audio and started my thread.

[robertpaulsen]

17. Thanks, I've edited my blog to give him credit.

I've listened to portions of that audio, but haven't had time to listen to it all the way through yet.

[suffragette]

18. I had to listen to it a few times

Well worth it, both to distinguish which pieces the media is selectively alluding to and to hear how inconsistent and riddled with holes this all is. I look forward to hearing your thoughts after listening to it all.

[robertpaulsen]

19. Listening to the whole thing confirmed my initial reaction.

Coached all the way. This little unprinted exchange around 8:45 in the recording caught my ear:

Drawbaugh: And you've been cooperating with the FBI in that regard?

Duley: Oh yes, very much so!

Yes, the fact that she has her own FBI agent assigned to her is a significant detail omitted from published reports. I agree that the only thing believable is that she received phone calls from him, the whole bulletproof vest & gun & stabbing people story sounds like she's drafting the screenplay as she's speaking. Why was it "very scary" that he calmly told in a phone message that she ruined his life when this occurred after the threats he supposedly made in group therapy? She genuinely seemed more scared by that phone message than the "threats" made in the group that no one else seems to have witnessed.

This nugget also stood out around 1:45:

Drawbaugh: And it's my understanding you've requested that the Federal Bureau of Investigation offer you some sort of protection and you have indicated they are not able to do that. Is that correct?

Duley: They are going to be following him. He's being released today. Um...and...um...my assigned FBI agent actually very much suggested that I get a protection order.

edited to add link:

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/08/02/us/02scientist.html?_r=3&hp=&adxnnl=1&oref=slogin&adxnnlx=1217787170-lMwSJKQHx6KzZ/fgXEE+KA&oref=slogin#

Very much in line with what Ivin's attorney said about the "harrassment" he faced at the hands of the FBI.

BTW, do you have any updated info if that story about his son being offered money and a sportcar panned out?

[suffragette]

20. The only part of her story that sounds like it happened are the two calls

she received from Ivins, who would have been understandably angry that she violated his trust, particularly if she worked with the FBI in exaggerating or making up the other wild allegations. And when she specifically refers to the content of those voicemails (apart from her characterization of his tone), they sound like perfectly rational things for him to say. Maybe this is because it is the one aspect of her testimony that's actually on tape and verifiable. Interesting that the FBI didn't whip it out at today's show and tell. I'm sure they would have if they thought it would bolster their case. Telling, yes?


As to the part about the son being offered money. It's popping up in quite a few articles now. Didn't Larissa say in a thread here that she didn't have time to follow-up on the initial post in her blog, but would make the contact info available to other reporters. Maybe that's what happened. You could check with her and find out.

[librechik]

21. Mark my words: this woman will also be found a suicide.

before she can testify under oath.

Apologies to any offended by this concept.

[NightWatcher]

7. woohoo, to be in on the ground floor of the latest big conspiracy

Hartmann read my OP yesterday and it has only grown from there. I love how everyone is able to add a little bit to this story to blow the doors of the coverage faster than the government can lie.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x3719911

[Ghost in the Machine]

8. Here's another rec.... and a kick to go with it...

Thanks for all the hard work you guys do. I wish I could rec all the good comments, too..

[bleever]

9. I've come to the conclusion that Duley's handwritten notes

were actually dictated over the phone.

Notice the repetition of "threats" and "actions". Like someone was checking to make sure they were writing the right thing, repeating it over the phone, and mistakenly writing it twice.

Notice that "subpoena" is spelled correctly, while "therapist" is misspelled. I can imagine her asking for the correct spelling of "subpoena", and getting that right, while using the wrong tense. She most likely thought she knew how to spell "therapist".

Notice that she started writing "psychiatrist" with "py", then corrected it. Likely she stopped and asked for the correct spelling, after thinking the way she started it didn't look right.

And, notice that she "knows" details of the FBI investigation, and uses the term "capital murders", not a phrase part of the average person's lexicon. She wasn't, as has been suggested, actually read in to the case; she was just using language supplied to her as she was writing.

[EFerrari]

10. Have you listened to the audio of her hearing?

Same same.

She repeats generalizations and cliches and hesitates every two syllables. The only thing that comes across as genuine is when she describes two phone calls from Ivins when he's in the hospital. That part is believable.

He probably did call her to tell her how upset he was and twice. But none of the content of his calls are in anyway out of the norm for someone in his situation. And, no threats at all. He never said, "I'm going to kill you for doing this to me". Not even once.

Of course, FBI has her answering machine . . .

[bleever]

11. Mr. Drawbaugh may have some legal exposure here.

He is certainly a witness of fact.

[EFerrari]

12. Judge Roberts is the one that blows me away.

If you came into my court and asked for a stayaway order because someone was murderous, I'd have a question or two to ask you, just to figure out what I should do.

Roberts didn't ask anything.

I wonder how manipulated that whole hearing was. :shrug:

[bleever]

14. Good question!

So many questions...I need to quit my job. :)

[Kaleko]

16. My first take was that Duley did not fill in the petition herself.

The discrepancy between her signature and the rest of the handwriting is too great. Her signature also seems to be written with a different pen, or at least with a lot less pressure while applying pen to paper.

See the photocopies and post # 40 on Nightwatcher's thread:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=3719911&mesg_id=3720383

[JohnyCanuck]

13. K&R

[FormerOstrich]

15. another K&R

While it really is rather insignificant, I haven't seen anyone mention this specifically, yet it always makes me sort of chuckle:

From the handwritten portion of Duley's document (emphasis mine):

client has a history dating to his graduate days of homicidal threats, actions, plans, threats & actions towards theripist.

I immediately think that someone told her he was not only a danger to the world at large, his history of dire deeds against his theripist date back forever!!!!! Lions and Tigers O MY!!

Plus, while there is mention in a lot of the publications, I think not enough can be said, about the amount of tax payer dollars which have been pissed away in the anthrax investigation:

The "unprecedented" number of agents assigned for such a lengthy investigation.
Six Million to Hatfield (I'd hate to see the bill for the attorney fees for that case)
The new super scientific Anthrax DNA analysis technology (ching) 10M.

I suppose in contrast 2.5M bribes to sons is pocket change!!!

Thanks so much for all that are keeping on top of this. And very special thanks to Larisa Alexandrovna of whom I have so much respect (and plenty of envy). I did a lot of research in 2002-2003. I need to find the time to dust it off and see if anything is relevant!

:kick: