Why was Ivins prescribed Tylenol with Codeine??? (Behind the scenes at the "suicide.")

[skip fox]

Do we know?

That's for pain, right? Not for psychological problems. (And if he was so upset as the therapist claims, would she have proscribed something he could use to kill himself with?)

That's a question that should be forcefully asked.

[GreenPartyVoter]

1. I haven't heard. It's good stuff for pain though. I took it as a kid after I broke my arm.

[skip fox]

4. I agree. But to have been prescribed it, he would have had to have claimed

he was in physical pain of some sort. Maybe he'd fallen down the stair. Maybe cut himself with whatever.

BUT WE SHOULD BE TOLD WHERE AND HOW HE GOT THE PILLS WITH WHICH HE PRESUMABLY TOOK HIS OWN LIFE.

If he was "suicided," I have no doubt that his assassins and/or their sponsors have a story as to how he got the Tylenol with codeine. But the more stories, the more likely that something will trip them up. (If there is a them, of course.)

[angrycarpenter]

6. exactly

still one of the best things for a tooth ache. Maybe he ground his teeth in his sleep. The official story suggests he had a lot of rage.

Edit: meant to reply to #2

[skip fox]

8. Okay, still something that investigators should check out.

Did they? Will they?

[shadowknows69]

11. find me someone who doesn't have a little rage these days

[EFerrari]

13. The official story does but nothing in his behavior exhibits

the actions of someone out of control on rage. Or even smoldering. Maybe some of those "scores" of emails will come out?

I don't buy it. When Ivins thought he need psych help, he went and looked for it. He had plenty of insight, enough to go to a shrink and to take his meds and to express his concerns to friends.

If the FBI made him angry, it was with good reason as far as I can tell. :shrug:

[EFerrari]

18. Yes, that's a good point.

My bet is that his wife and his son are exhausted from being stalked by the FBI and grief stricken right now. That poor family.

And on top of everything else, there is a cloud over them.

[MountainLaurel]

14. Can get them OTC in Canada

When we were in Quebec last year for a holiday, Mr. Laurel picked up some. They're good to have around just in case, and they're about the only thing that will work for his migraines once they're in full swing.

[Taverner]

2. It's actually pretty outdated - I've only seen it perscribed for Dental Pain

[Richardo]

3. Isn't that Vicodin?

[geomon666]

15. Vicodin is a bit stronger n/t

[Imalittleteapot]

16. Same basic ingredients

acetaminophen & codiene.

[Qutzupalotl]

17. Yes.

I have plenty left over from two dental surgeries. Took it for a day. They gave me 10 days' worth each time. Personally, I hate the stuff.

[skip fox]

19. How long is Codeine good for under optimal conditions (temp/light)??

He could have had dental surgery a year ago, perhaps. (Or someone could claim he had.)

[Qutzupalotl]

32. I've taken some that was a year old by mistake.

I grabbed my wife's bottle. It seemed to work as well as the new.

I'm no chemist, but I think a lot of solid medicines decline gradually in potency beyond the printed expiration, unlike, say, dairy products. It would be difficult to determine how old is too old to kill someone by OD. But he was a microbiologist, so I'd guess he could estimate declining potency better than the average guy (i.e., me).

[leveymg]

5. She would need an MD or DDS or DVM to prescribe controlled substances

She didn't prescribe it.

[skip fox]

7. Right. Codeine can't be prescribed by a therapist, though non-controlled substances (Valium?)

can be.

Great point. Therefore, there must be a MD, DDS, DVM with information and there would have to be a pharmisist who filled it. More stories and more potential slip-ups if he was eliminated by others.

[leveymg]

9. Valium is a controlled substance. He could've eaten pet meds. But, someone had to prescribe them.

[skip fox]

10. Something else to check out. Where is the documetn dump. Would that have it??

?

[bicentennial_baby]

12. here's the dump:

http://www.usdoj.gov/amerithrax/

[skip fox]

21. Probably not in these. I've been looking and they all appear

to be prior to suicide.

Maybe we could find the original FBI report of the suicide. But would they have said where he got the drug?

If there is something fishy, they'd not bring it up even if they have a cover . . . best let it be ignored, which is what the press does best so much of the time. And if there was nothing fishy they probably still wouldn't say, it not being that germane to the story.

BUT if there is nothing fishy, they'd certainly reply to this question from the press!!! (If Ivins was eliminated, they'd probably say "Doctor-client privilege" or whatever to try and sweep it away.)

[skip fox]

20. Is Tylenol with Codeine a "good" method.

If it's not the best way for a man with his knowledge or such things and his access to them, then something might be funny on that front at well.

[trashcanistanista]

26. It's not necessarily a good method from that standpoint,

but if enough tylenol is taken, there is absolutely nothing they can do to prevent liver failure (aside from a transplant), though, it may take a day or 2 to kill. In that sense, it is a foolproof method. Even if he were found and resuscitated, once the tylenol is in the system, there would be nothing they can do to save his life.

[librechik]

27. no , it's horrible--

I started a thread on this a few days ago, and one of the responses was horrifying.It was from someone with a background in medicine describing how awful dying from Tylenol is.

But it seems that at a certain point you can be given a substance that could save your life. However, at that point most victims believe they have survived the poisoning, and don't go to the hospital to get the treatment. If they don't it is certain painful death.

[skip fox]

28. Would a trained scientist in Ivins' field even think of using this method???

Damn, these questions get juicer, don't they?

I've been reading around on the net and a number of people are saying it's not only painful but iffy.

And the only report of his method was thru an unidentified friend who presumably told reporters what he'd been told at Ivins bedside in the hospital.

He took "massive amounts" accounts say. Where did he get them? Why did he commit suicide in this fashion?

Bigger question: Where are the investigative reporters???

[librechik]

30. that was my original question. If I had access to any drug, like Ivins did

I wouldn't choose tylenol, even with Codeine in it.

[underpants]

22. Eh if you have a steady doctor you can get anything

By steady I mean you have been seeing him/her for a while

"Mothers little helper" and all that

:shrug:

OR you could just go drug shopping- some docs love taking your full payment to write you a 'script

[skip fox]

23. underpants, great to see you.

But you agree, don't you, that an investigative reporter should be asking this question of the F.B.I.

(If there are any investigative reporters left.)

[underpants]

25. Oh yeah

This story stunk to high-heaven from the get go

For the empty spectacle that that operation is if they HAD really been close to filing charges we would have known about especially after they got played by Hatfill (whatever his name is)

[trashcanistanista]

24. Good question.

Why pain meds for depression? Why not a depression or anti-anxiety or other type of psych med if he was so "homicidal-acting"? Another question, why would a potential mass murderer announce his plans, and list his targets to the group and MSW in group therapy? Seems a little unusual to me. This stinks, stinks, stink.

[FloridaJudy]

29. And if he was really an alcoholic

As his "theripist" claimed, he shouldn't have been prescribed an opiate except for severe pain. Not should he have been prescribed anything containing acetaminophen - it's toxic when combined with alcohol.

This whole situation stinks to high heaven. He was being treated for alcoholism by a woman with two(!) DUI's, most recently in 2006? There's something a lot wrong with this picture!

[FormerOstrich]

31. I am terrible

at hording.

I will be in pain so I can squirrel away my pain pills so I can throw them away years after the shelf life has passed. Obviously this doesn't make sense and I don't understand why exactly I do it but....

In other words I probably have Tylenol 3, Cough Syrup with Codeine, Oxy..however it is spelled, and a variety of other pills laying around and I haven't filled a prescription in recent memory.

[defendandprotect]

33. Weren't they also throwing a BOOZING accusation into the mix ...?

That is among the PO box, pornography, hating females garbage they've thrown on the pile.

They didn't seem to be saying he reeked of booze and an empty vodka bottle at his side.

In fact, the people who responded -- and this seems to have been the THIRD time !!! ---

saying they "saw no evidence of suicide."

[DearAbby]

34. Most people write notes to loved ones before committing suicide

where is Ivins' suicide note?

[defendandprotect]

37. Someone asked about a suicide note and they would only say . .. .

they wouldn't say --- !!!

[Ima Misfit]

35. There are plenty of rogue internet pharmacies that will sell Tylenol w/ Codeine w/o a Rx

Certainly Dr. Ivins would have known that even a huge overdose of Tylenol w/ Codeine would probably not have killed him. Tylenol Toxicity, on the other hand, can kill a person after just a few days of taking slightly more than the recommended dose.

The recommended daily maximum is eight pills (4,000 mg). A person taking twice that much can incur severe liver damage -and people in pain sometimes lose perspective and gulp a handful. "Seven to eight grams a day for three or four days can be fatal," according to William M. Lee, MD, of the University of Texas Southwestern Medical Center. http://www.counterpunch.org/gardner06102006.html

Does anybody know how many pills Dr. Ivins took? He may have accidentally overdosed from codeine, or he may have died from liver damage caused by Tylenol Toxicity.

[defendandprotect]

36. Since there is only a dead Ivins and no autopsy, those questions will

probably go unanswered . . .

I'm sure that if Ivins wanted to take something to kill himself he would have had

better knowledge than Tylenol with codeine ---

[lonestarnot]

38. You're supposed to be a doctor to prescribe medication.

:toast:

[magellan]

39. Questions being missed here

Why was someone allegedly diagnosed as a sociopathic homicidal killer who the government felt was good for the anthrax attacks 1) allowed to sign himself out of a high security psychiatric hospital? and 2) not closely monitored after his release? You know, in case he decided to act on his homicidal intents or even launch another anthrax attack?

To believe the government's story you have to concede that at the very least they weren't paying attention to a highly dangerous suspect.

Kind of like the way BushCo managed to miss every warning pushed in their faces prior to 9-11.

[EFerrari]

40. The thing is, there's no evidence of such a diagnosis

and those aren't even clinical terms that a doc would use to diagnose. It was just what that woman said and she had as much right to diagnose him as the checker at WalMart.

[magellan]

41. Yeah, it's even hard to type without tripping over it

"Sociopathic homicidal killer". I prefer a shorter, more concise term to describe such tendencies: "BushCo".

:evilgrin:

I didn't mean to detract from the question posed by the OP, which is important. I was tired when I wrote my reply, and spurred by nothing but the frustration many of us feel at the amount of silly string used by the government to tie this case together. NONE of it makes sense, least of all why Ivins was allegedly prescribed and chose to OD on Tylenol +codeine.

My apologies to skip fox.