This Day in History: Atomic bomb dropped on Nagasaki

[WeDidIt]

August 9, 1945

Atomic bomb dropped on Nagasaki
On this day in 1945, a second atom bomb is dropped on Japan by the United States, at Nagasaki, resulting finally in Japan's unconditional surrender.

The devastation wrought at Hiroshima was not sufficient to convince the Japanese War Council to accept the Potsdam Conference's demand for unconditional surrender. The United States had already planned to drop their second atom bomb, nicknamed "Fat Man," on August 11 in the event of such recalcitrance, but bad weather expected for that day pushed the date up to August 9th. So at 1:56 a.m., a specially adapted B-29 bomber, called "Bock's Car," after its usual commander, Frederick Bock, took off from Tinian Island under the command of Maj. Charles W. Sweeney. Nagasaki was a shipbuilding center, the very industry intended for destruction. The bomb was dropped at 11:02 a.m., 1,650 feet above the city. The explosion unleashed the equivalent force of 22,000 tons of TNT. The hills that surrounded the city did a better job of containing the destructive force, but the number killed is estimated at anywhere between 60,000 and 80,000 (exact figures are impossible, the blast having obliterated bodies and disintegrated records).

The History Channel

[MadHound]

1. Another black mark in US history

There was no need to drop the bomb either on Hiroshima or Nagasaki, Japan had been making surrender contacts for awhile. But the US wanted to demonstrate their new toy, and in case Russia wasn't paying attention the first time, we did it twice. Tens of thousands dead simply because we wanted to demonstrate our nuclear capability:puke:

[WeDidIt]

2. Suffice it to say, I disagree.

Given the uncertainties involved in all out war, I cannot fault Harry Truman his decision to drop the bombs. It was horrible, but I believe the blame for the bombs lies more with the military of Japan which had seized total control of that nation than with the United States.

Furthermore, the Japanese themselves were working on nuclear weapons, and you know with no doubt they would have used them. they were a lot further along than the Germans, too.

[MadHound]

3. Suffice it to say, the historical record does agree with me

Elements of Japanese leadership were making surrender overtures to the US as early as 1943. Starting in early January they became frantic, full surrender with only one condition, that the Emperor retain his titular position. Instead of accepting this offer, we dropped the bomb, braying about how we needed "unconditional surrender". After Hiroshima, actual unconditional surrender offers came through, but they were ignored so that we could bomb, bomb, bomb again. Then we accepted the unconditional surrender that had been waved in front of us for days. Oh, and that one condition that we wouldn't accept, you know, keeping the Emperor in his titular position. We granted that condition:eyes:

Sorry, but this was nothing but a demonstration for the USSR. It was the opening curtain going up on the Cold War, a demonstration of strength for a country that the US increasingly distrusted and hated.

[WeDidIt]

4. Sorry, I disagree completely

"Elements of the Japanese leadership" does not constitute the position of those who held the power.

There was no choice in the matter. Truman did the right thing.

And you are doing nothing but re-writing history. The War Council was still divided on surrender even after the bombs were dropped. The matter was settled when the meperor gave the go-ahead for unconditional surrender.

[MadHound]

5. Actually they were those who held power

Look, I really don't have the time, nor the desire to rehash this debate one more time on these boards. If you really want to know the real deal, the evidence is out there in plenty. I've done the work, spent the hours reading and researching this topic thoroughly, as have many other reputable historians. If you want a place to start your research, go to Yale and read the diaries of Henry Stimson, the Sec of War at the time.

I would also suggest reading some of Truman's diaries and other papers, FDR's work also.

If you don't care to believe myself, a historian, and the many other reputable, notable historians who agree with me, fine. I really don't care, the American people love and need their precious little myths that state this country is nothing but good. So if you wish to remain in bliss, and ignorance, that's your doing. Me, I prefer to deal with the reality based world, and in that world, yes, Japan tried to surrender time and again(with overtures coming from people in power). Yet we refused and decided to drop not one, but two genocidal weapons on a mostly civilian population.

Americans abhor the denial exhibited by Japan concerning their role in WWII, meanwhile ignoring their own role. WWII was a genocidal watershed that set the tone for the following sixty plus years, and frankly nobody's hands came out clean.

[WeDidIt]

6. I KNOW the "real deal" Truman did the right thing.

and I'm not buying the shit you're selling.

[ET Awful]

7. He's not "selling" anything, he's offering you the truth for free. n/t

[WeDidIt]

8. No, he's selling a lie. n/t

[MadHound]

13. Let me ask you something

Do you have anything to back your happy ass up with other than what you learned in your high school Western Civ class? Have you done any research into this? Have you read primary source documents, both from the US, but also Japan? Or are you simply another myth believing American, convinced that the conventional history offered in high school and freshman college is the be all and end all of this discussion.

Sorry to break this to you, but the history you learned concerning this matter is mostly myth, and many researchers and historians besides myself have done the research and can back up the premise that I set forth. Like I said earlier, go do the research yourself, you'll have it easy since many of the documents that I had to travel cross country in order to view years ago are now online for your perusal.

This is similar to Native American history thirty years ago, we all believed in the American West/Indian myth that we had been taught in school. Then Brown came out with "Bury my Heart at Wounded Knee" and turned that accepted history on its ear. I suppose the same thing will happen with WWII history. Let's just hope that it doesn't take a century for the truth to emerge.

[Name removed]

16. Deleted message

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[Name removed]

24. Deleted message

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[ET Awful]

40. Don't you just love people that come HERE of all places and spout the tired rhetoric of

if you disagree, you must hate America?

[roody]

18. "the right thing"

How could the right thing be killing tens of thousands of civilians? And contaminating the earth with radiation?

[WeDidIt]

20. It ended the war

The only other option was invasion, and I'm sorry but it was a war, they were the enemy. Nagasaki was a legitimate military target.

Truman did the right thing which makes him not only an American hero, but a WORLD hero because eh ended a fucking World War.

[MadHound]

26. And the other option was to accept Japan's offer of surrender

Or to stage a modern day air/sea siege. There were options to choose from, quite a few actually. It wasn't simply a case of either/or, drop the bomb or invade.

Most of the American military establishment, including Ike, didn't want to drop the bomb. But hey, I suppose they hated America too:eyes:

[Thothmes]

33. What document source can you cite to substantiate your

claim that Ike advised Truman against using the bomb before Aug 6 1945.

[ET Awful]

38. Is the Secretary of War close enough?

"...in 1945... Secretary of War Stimson, visiting my headquarters in Germany, informed me that our government was preparing to drop an atomic bomb on Japan. I was one of those who felt that there were a number of cogent reasons to question the wisdom of such an act. ...the Secretary, upon giving me the news of the successful bomb test in New Mexico, and of the plan for using it, asked for my reaction, apparently expecting a vigorous assent.

"During his recitation of the relevant facts, I had been conscious of a feeling of depression and so I voiced to him my grave misgivings, first on the basis of my belief that Japan was already defeated and that dropping the bomb was completely unnecessary, and secondly because I thought that our country should avoid shocking world opinion by the use of a weapon whose employment was, I thought, no longer mandatory as a measure to save American lives. It was my belief that Japan was, at that very moment, seeking some way to surrender with a minimum loss of 'face'. The Secretary was deeply perturbed by my attitude..."

- Dwight Eisenhower, Mandate For Change, pg. 380

[Thothmes]

43. Thank You

Did Stimpson pass on Ikes reservations to HST.

[ET Awful]

44. Do you really think that Truman and his Secretary of War weren't in constant contact at that point?

n/t

[Thothmes]

45. Maybe.

What was Stimson's advice to Truman on the use of the Bombs. As a matter of fact, What did Marshall advise Truman to do. How about King, Arnold or Leahy. These men were the first tier advisers to the President. Yet, I have not seen anyone in the numerous threads on this subject, cite the specific recommendations of these men to the President before the bombings in early August 1945. There are plenty of post bombing opinions, but none cited before the actual bombing.

[ET Awful]

46. LOL . . . so let me get this right, you contend that Truman and his cabinet were competent to make

the decision to drop the atomic bombs on Japan, but weren't competent enough to stay in constant contact?

So if Eisenhower expressed his concerns to Stimson, but those weren't passed on to Truman, doesn't that show a complete lack of competence at the highest level? If you contend that the Secretary of War didn't pass on Eisenhower's concerns, doesn't that prove that the decision to use the bomb was a foregone conclusion and that no input from advisors or generals would change it?

Hmmmm, odd argument for someone who supports the decision to make.

[Thothmes]

61. I never made that statement

The decision to drop the bomb was not made in a vacuum. Up until the day he was inaugerated as the President, Truman did not know of the existance of the Manhattan project or the atomic bomb. Who helped Truman make that decision. I did not say that Stimson did not pass on Ike's concerns, But what was Stimsons advice to the President. What about the those officers that I mentioned in my previous post. Ike was not in the inner circle of deciders on whether to use the bomb or not. What did the inner circle advise Truman to do. So far, not one single post of all of those I have read concerning the use of those weapons discusses what advice was given to President Truman by those people in the Pentagon or the Cabinet. You do not seem to be able to document those sources eithe.

[NeedleCast]

37. Yes, there were options

Truman picked the one that kept the highest number of American soldiers alive. Considering that that is part of his job descriptions as C-in-C, I think it was the right decision.

[hack89]

50. And how many would have died in a prolonged siege?

is it more humane if the deaths are spread out? Would the continuation of the fire bombing campaign been acceptable? And how many innocents would have died in China, Korea, the Philippines while we waited for the Japanese to surrender?

[MadHound]

53. Or as I said, they could have accepted Japan's offer of surrender

All the US would have had to do is retain the Japanese emperor in his titular position. I know, I know, that's an awful lot to accept. . .oh, wait, we did accept that condition, only after we had dropped the bombs. Hmm, now what did we gain by dropping the bombs again? Oh, yeah, a few hundred thousands of innocents dead and a fine demonstration for Russia's benefit.

[hack89]

54. You are wrong on this

there is absolutely no evidence that the military was ready to surrender. And the military ruled Japan.

[MadHound]

58. There is plenty of evidence that the military was ready to surrender

Hell, there were feelers put out from the Japanese military command concerning a negotiated surrender as early as 1943.

Look, I've done the historical research on this(after all, I am a historian), and while I realize that this goes against the conventional history we were taught in high school and college even a decade ago, but as more and more documents come to light, as more who were in positions of power and position to know what was going on at the time finally feel the need to talk, the conventional history of that time period and events is going out the window.

If you really want to, I can give you a large bibliography of documents to check. But this would require you to do as I've done, visit places around the country and do the research. I do this for a living, and as such my material is peer reviewed, and so far none of the material I've written about has been dinged by my fellow professionals in the field. If you really feel the need to come after me for shattering your personal WWII myth, fine, but please, have some credentials, and research, to back yourself up with.

[hack89]

60. Just name one or two names

give me their positions and show they had the influence to end the war. We will start with that.

Give me something to Google.

[MullenBank]

10. enemy

My dad was in Australia, awaiting the order to invade. He came home alive. The Emperor should have surrendered. Fuck'em.

[MadHound]

12. Now that's a real erudite response.

Somebody disagrees with you, and though that person obviously has learning and knowledge, you label them as an "enemy", simply because they disagree with your spoon fed pabulum that you regard as the truth.

Gee friend, have you done the research, traveled to various archives, read the fucking primary source documents, or are you simply going on what your high school history teacher/football coach said. If you haven't done the research, if you haven't done the reading, how in the hell do you know what the truth is? You don't, you, like millions of others, have accepted the propaganda version of US history as gospel and anybody who disagrees apparently is an "enemy". Must be real boring to live in a black and white world:eyes:

I'm happy for your Dad, at least for the fact that he lived. The fact that he came home and sired such a rude progeny as you, who labels everybody they disagree with as an "enemy", well, perhaps he should have pulled out and hit the wall instead. But that's neither here nor there. Once again, if you would do some research into the primary documents, like Stimson's diary I referred to above, you would find that one of the last options the US was considering was an all out invasion of mainland Tokyo. If the bomb wasn't dropped, the war probably would have ended as a modern siege operation, since we had both massive dominance on the sea and in the air.

Oh, and you're not the only one who had relations in WWII, I, along with millions of others did also, so come down off your high horse, you're not somehow special or possess the truth simply because your father was in WWII.

So unless you've got something to back your happy ass up with other than your high school history course, you really have no room to speak. I've given you a couple of places for you to look and start learning the truth, so why don't you just run along and go educate yourself rather than being an internet asshole labeling those who disagree with your worldview as an "enemy". Gee, maybe with a bit more knowledge you could even learn to be a halfway civilized person to speak with.

[roody]

21. I was told those lies in grade school.

"Lives were saved." "We had no choice." My brother just parroted them to me!!

[MullenBank]

31. Enemy

The Japanese were the enemy you genius. At least in 1945. That's the reference. And fuck'em again. 10 milion japs are not worth my life.

[Xenotime]

36. The best you can say to the death and suffering of all those people is "Fuck'em"?

This is why our party is failing.

[Retired AF Dem]

22. Japan started it

we ended it. Life is a bitch.

[WeDidIt]

23. Thank you

both for your support on this thread and for your service.

[MadHound]

25. Actually there's still quite a bit of debate about whether or not Japan actually "started it"

Given the incredible amount of pressure that the FDR put the Japanese under. FDR was looking to for any excuse to jump into the war, even if he had to force one, and many, many historical records show that he did just that, backed Japan into such a corner that they had no other choice than to attack. Furthermore, there is plenty of evidence that an attack on PH was imminent, yet he did nothing and let those people die. But that's a whole other discussion that would hijack this thread, so let's not go there.

As far as your response goes, yes, we ended it, as was our duty to do so. However ending it in such a way, by killing tens of thousands of innocents all for the first Cold War posturing of power, sorry, but that's simply wrong. If Truman really wanted to end it, he had plenty of opportunities to do so in the weeks that led up to Hiroshima and Nagasaki, yet he didn't take them. Instead he opted for the large mushroom demonstration for the benefit of Russia, rather than the less dramatic, less lethal method of simply accepting Japan's surrender offers.

[Retired AF Dem]

29. Right or wrong

you were not alive during that period and don't have a clue on how you would of felt than. My grandfather who had just survived this third campaign in Okinawa didn't mind it one bit. People here are up in arms over 4000 troops KIA in Iraq. How do you think people were feeling with over a quarter million troops killed in WW 11? People in the U.S. wanted it over. I agree with you that FDR wanted in the war, knew Japan was going to attack Pearl Harbor and sacrificed 2300 service men to achieve it.

[MadHound]

30. And that is probably a good thing

That is why historians really don't get into a subject until a couple of decades after it has passed, too many subjective opinions, too many feelings too close to the surface.

Yes, if I was a grunt on the ground at the time, I probably would have wanted the war to end by any means possible ASAP. But I wasn't, and just because I wasn't doesn't mean that my opinion, my research and that of my colleagues in history isn't valid. In fact a historians objectivity makes his/her opinion actually much more valid than those who were caught up in the heat of the moment.

The old saying is true, the victors write history. That's what happened for years and decades after WWII. But now with the passing of time and subjectivity, we can explore what was really going on in a scholarly, objective matter and come to the truth. If you can't deal with that, I don't know what to tell you:shrug: But history is a search for the truth, and to get beyond that we have to look at what happened from all sides, not just our own, biased, subjective viewpoint. Yes, that is disturbing to some people not in the field, but the fact is that we arrive at a much clearer truth that way than just continuing to accept the conventional myth:shrug:

[Dreamer Tatum]

41. Yes, FDR put SO much pressure on Japan that it shot an entire fleet across the Pacific

Give me a fucking break. :eyes:

[ET Awful]

48. Not to up on your history are you?

Do you know nothing about the economic and other sanctions placed on Japan by the US prior to WW2?

The US terminated long time agreements with Japan, including stopping shipments of steel and other necessities, along with freezing all Japanese assets in the US, effectively terminating any business relationships with Japan. This severely crippled Japan's economy and, in short, was a major catalyst in inciting the attack on Pearl Harbor.

Here's a brief article, that summarize some of what went on: http://americanhistory.suite101.com/article.cfm/japan_favors_war_with_america

If you'd read up on some real history, you might have known this.

[Dreamer Tatum]

49. I knew we had it coming somehow

And I knew I just had to come here to find out how.

[hack89]

51. And why were those sanctions imposed?

If the Japanese invasion of China and the slaughter of millions of innocents is not justification for sanctions then what is?

[ET Awful]

52. Yet the US practiced isolationism insofar as the European continent was concerned.

Why play favorites if your intent isn't to incite?

[hack89]

56. Because the lessons of WWI were still very painful

and so entanglement with Europe was resisted.

Besides, it is hard to say that FDR practiced isolationism in regards to Europe - the scope of US military and industrial support for Britain was surprisingly large. A small example was the US Navy escorting conveys halfway across the Atlantic. We shipped huge amounts of munitions and other war material to Britain.

[MadHound]

55. Actually what happened was this

FDR wanted to jump in the war, and had his Sec. of State draw up an eight point plan that would force Japan into such a corner that their only option was to attack. Officially, that plan was put on the scrap heap soon after the Sec. of State presented it to FDR. However within a few months those self same eight points were carried out, and they indeed force Japan into an economic, political and diplomatic corner whose only escape was an attack on the US.

In addition, there is ample evidence that the movement of the Japanese fleet was known to Washington, yet this information wasn't passed on to the commander at PH. Instead, all that happened was that the Navy moved out its aircraft carriers to sea, away from danger, days before the attack, leaving the relatively cheap and easy to replace destroyers and battleships at anchor. If the carriers had remained at Pearl Harbor, it is doubtful that the US could have prosecuted the Pacific war as it did, and probably would have to come to terms with Japan instead.

Again, these are historical facts. What are you backing your contentions up with, besides hot air that is?

[Dreamer Tatum]

59. So, we had it coming.

Got it.

Brought it on ourselves.

Check.

Deserved it.

Right-o.


:eyes:

[ET Awful]

62. That's not what he said.

He said that certain elements of the US government engaged in activity that they had reason to believe would incite conflict.

He didn't say that "we" deserved it.

[WeDidIt]

27. BTW, pay no attention to the holier than though hindsighters

BEst to just put idiots like that on ignore.

[MadHound]

28. Yes, we know, the truth is disturbing to people like yourself

But there there now, all will be better now that you can ignore the truth:eyes:

[ET Awful]

39. Using your logic, the governments of Vietnam, Iraq, Afghanistan, Nicaragua, and countless others

would be completely justified in using any weapon of mass destruction they saw fit against the United States.

[Supersedeas]

9. this is a test...this is only a...a..another test--to our ground force to be mindful of targeting

civilians

[Resuscitated Ethics]

11. "Kokura's luck " was rushed for weather

http://www.atomictourist.com/


"After the Hiroshima bombing, President Truman announced, "If they do not accept our terms, they may expect a rain of ruin from the air the likes of which has never been seen on this earth."

On August 8, 1945, leaflets were dropped and warnings were given to Japan by Radio Saipan.

(The area of Nagasaki did not receive warning leaflets until August 10, though the leaflet campaign covering the whole country was over a month into its operations.)"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atomic_bombings_of_Hiroshima_and_Nagasaki

Truman was unable to have called back the second bombing run for Kokura if he had even wanted to. He may have tried.


Peace

[Dreamer Tatum]

14. Can someone write some script to auto-post these threads every year?

You know, starting off with the annual tongue-clucking by people who weren't there, followed by the history buffs eager to show off
what they read in the Journal of One-Upmanship, followed by the ostriches who claim we dropped the bombs on the biggest white flag waving
exercise of all time, followed by the occasional poignant story of having survived it all (written by a 33-year-old), followed by...

These threads have been the same since there's been a DU.

[WeDidIt]

15. Well excuse the fuck outta me n/t

[Dreamer Tatum]

17. Sorry, but this thread will look the same as the Hiroshima one a few days ago

Which I was a contributor to, until I realized that we mothball the same arguments for 12 months every year.

[WeDidIt]

19. Didn't see the Hiroshima thread

but then again, I don't get on DU every fucking day.

[IndianaJones]

32. necessary and effective. nt.

[Fuzz]

34. Freepers add (Happy Nagasaki Day!) to their post on the subject

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/2058966/posts

[Xenotime]

35. They just love it because it was a "dem" who dropped it.

They FUCKING love to point that out.

[anonymous171]

42. It worked.

But at a terrible cost in human life and suffering. We should never do it again.

[madokie]

47. You know I'm not so sure our present occupants wouldn't or aren't going to do this to us

here so as to facilitate their staying in power because if they walk away all hell will break out in their lives and they know that. Their lives will not be worth living to them anymore.

[backscatter712]

57. I'll play a game of DEFCON in honor of today.

DEFCON: Everybody Dies

A strange game. The only winning move is not to play. How about a nice game of chess?

[deaniac21]

63. Madhound, the King of revisionistic history.