Can someone help me out please?

[borlis]

I haven't posted on here in a while, but I'm in the middle of a debate with a friend of mine who is a conservative republican and I need some info, but don't know where to find it. I thought years ago this friend and I were going to "agree to disagree," but out of the blue the other day she sent me an e-mail about the terrible dem. congress and Obama. So I sent her something about "The Truth About McCain." The kind of response I got was not what I would have expected from her. So as I am writing a response to her I am thinking about sending her (although I know I won't change her mind) something I read on here about a guy named Joe (I think) and a discussion he had with someone about how to stand up for yourself, but it really was naming all the social programs the dems have put into law for years and how he benefited from them while claiming to stand on his own two feet. Can anyone help me out?


Thanks

[tjwash]

1. ...

A day in the life of joe republican


Although if you really want to send her some good information; you would be better off going here

[borlis]

3. That's it!

Thank you!

:hi:

[orleans]

2. yes, i love that day in the life of joe republika n/t

[SheilaT]

4. Somewhere along the line

you need to enlighten her about the fact that Republicans were in control of Congress for the last six years of Clinton's administration, and the first six of Bush's.

Another thing that seems to be effective is to forward this: http://www.rense.com/general37/char.htm
Especially in response to some mass-forwarded right-wing screed.

[Waiting For Everyman]

5. Does she know that McCain's "economic brain"

caused the mortgage crisis and the gas crisis almost single-handedly? Well, with some help from his wife Wendy, that is. I'm referring to Phil Gramm. Every American ought to become very familiar with that name and what he has done.

Olbermann's video is a good way to open the conversation
http://youtube.com/watch?v=lQ4kH3sNNTo&feature=relatedhr1182;hr3809/s2138

Foreclosure Phil
http://www.motherjones.com/news/feature/2008/07/foreclosure-phil.html

90% of what's happening to the economy now can be laid to his door. First Enron, then the rise of Mortgage-Backed Securities (MBSs), the the foreclosure crisis, and lastly the gas crisis (check the congressional hearings into oil speculators adding about 50% to prices - for those who don't believe that, prices have fallen since the SEC announced re-regulation a few weeks ago).


The Gramm-Leach-Bliley Act (repealed FDR's Glass Steagall)
The Commodity Futures Modernization Act

Those two were big pieces of the damage done. By Phil.

McCain said that Gramm would be his Sec. of Treasury, and although Gramm resigned from his campaign after the uproar over his calling us a "nation of whiners" several weeks ago, McCain hasn't said that Gramm wouldn't be his Sec. of Treasury anyway. I'd bet on it.

That should be enough reason not to vote for McCain, but if it isn't, there are lots of other reasons... beginning with supporting a phoney war, and intending to keep us there "100 years".

[borlis]

6. Here's what she sent me and my reply

Thanks for the info but, my thoughts on this are...

(1) Who cares who has cheated, it happens everyday and even the President or President's to be are not above it.

(2) (3) I don't care if they have 20 homes. I thought we live in America? We can have as many homes as we wish. If they can afford them more power to them. I wish we can afford a few vacation homes too! If we could we would! It's only jealously that drives these stories.

(4) Shit! I wish I can charge tens of thousands of $$ on my credit card. Paul would kill me of course. Again, if they can afford too great! Who cares what they spend personally! Again, another jealous, driven story. They can, we can't!

(7) (8) I love to play poker, and Mah Jongg, and Bunko and go to Vegas. I guess that makes me bad too! Darn, I don't have as much money to play with though. Again, another jealous driven story. Oh, I'm kinda superstitious too! ( I hate black cats!!)

(9) (10) Truely, just another hand out program going wrong

(11) (12) I don't like war but we have to do what we have to do. Or we can have them take over America too! Everybody today forgets about what happened 60 years ago in WW ll. America looked the other way for too long. Over 6 million Jews (and others) were tortured and killed by Hitler. Finally Roosevelt thought 6 million was too much and then we went in to liberate. Such a tragedy. This still happens today in these 3rd world countries. I feel we should help whomever we can when we can. We forget the real reasons we have created the military. It's not just for people who don't know what to do with their lives, free boarding and free education. So sad!

(17) (18) You can thank the environmentalist ( go green freaks) for our high gas prices. They have kept us from drilling right here in the USA for our own oil (and you know we have plenty) for years!!!!

(20) I say we should not only have the best of torture tactics but, we should start implementing them into the law enforcement world. Wow, talk about having a low crime rate!! I should quit dreaming though, our country loves to support the crimminals...

(21) Taxes are taxes. The more you make, the more they take. Actually I would support a flat tax for everyone. Forget about the tax brackets. I do feel the "so called rich" maybe taxed too much just because they can afford it. Is that really fair? I don't know. All I know is the people who love the hand outs and are too lazy to take responsibilty for their OWN self will always cry about the taxes not being fair and will always expect they deserve something.

There you have it once again my non-liberal conservative view point and I'm sticking to it! Ha Ha.

P.S. I don't like McCain either. My man was "Rudy".


My reply:
Well, we sure don't see eye to eye on most of this, and I thought years ago we agreed to disagree. But since you sent me that thing last week about the Dems and Obama, and without links I might add, (I never just hit "forward" without really knowing if what I am actually forwarding is true,) I felt I had to respond. While I am not about to start debating every detail with you, here are a few points I want to make.

About who cares who cheats? Um, remember Clinton and Monica? America certianly does care considering this country has become one big tabloid. Our soldiers are dying in a needless war and CNN is worrying about Britney Spears' mental state. Clinton was impeached because of a blow job. Nobody died over it. The republicans had a field day with this. Kind of makes me wonder what would have happened if it was their guy caught with his pants down. Probably nothing.

About all the homes and who cares who has what and how much the McCain's spend. I could really care less who has what. My point on this is that McCain is painting out Obama to be an elitist! People who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones.

I will NEVER believe in privatizing Social Security. I am not sure what the amount is, but I know that usually in the fall sometime, they stop taking social security out of Mike's paycheck because he has fulfilled whatever the amount is for the year. Maybe if people had to pay the same amount all year long instead of just until they reach a certain amount, this would help the system.

On the war: We should be in Afghanistan but NOT Iraq. Illegal war based on false information. Was Iraq threatening to take over America? Where was I that day? How would you feel if your son or daughter was killed in a war based on lies? Bush and his cronies should be in jail for doing this. If you are hating taxes, um, how are we going to pay for this illegal war anyway? Our great-grandchildren will still be paying for it. Bill Clinton left office with a budget surplus. Now our country is 9.5 trillion in debt! http://www.federalbudget.com/

As for the blaming the oil crisis on the environmentalists, here is an article explaining that the big oil companies don't want to drill here because they are seeing record profits. http://www.albertleatribune.com/news/2008/jun/26/why-isnt-big-oil-using-leases-it-already-has/
Also I remember a quote from Cheney in 1992 when Clinton was president where Cheney said "Anytime oil is over $20 a barrel, it's the sign of a failed presidency." Why won't our so called "liberal media" ask this question now?
And again why are we exporting so much oil if we need it here at home?
Oh, did you know that all this debate over drilling in Anwar, the oil expected to be there is only about a 6 month supply for this country? Bet they didn't tell you that on Faux news.

Soemthing we agree on: This country loving to support criminals! Start at the top! Maybe they should try out waterboarding on Bush and his cronies and see how they like it. Remember, "Charity begins at home."

As for taxes, I don't see why someone who makes maybe $40 thousand should pay the same amount as someone who makes $100 thousand. To me, that's not fair. I see the middle class fading away already and a flat tax will only add to it. And faster.

I guess we fall into the category of "People loving the hand outs" because Mike has lost his job twice in the last 6 years and I don't know what we would have done without the unemployment "handouts" we got. Because of that, we barely had to use our savings to make ends meet while he was trying to find a job. Someone in Libertyville that we know is an environmental engineer and has been unemployed for 4 years!! He is not lazy. Tired of trying to find a job. Yes. Tired of having to make ends meet on just his wife's pay. Yes. Oh by the way, the rebublicans in congress wouldn't give the votes needed to extend unemployment benefits either. I guess they also think that people who can't find a decent job are just lazy. While I agree that there are lazy people who love handouts, many people have just fallen upon hard times with no hope in sight.

It sure seems to be different though when someone "else" acutally needs to benefit from a govt. program. Take Olga, for example, republican to the bone. She always spouts how she and Steve work hard for all their money and they shouldn't have to help people who are lazy or don't have decent jobs. Until her daughter was diagnosed with mild Autism. Now she is just happy as a clam that they qualify for govt. funded intervention programs and therapy for her. She is thrilled "She" won't have to pay for it herself. Now govt. programs are just great. Because SHE needs one. Kind of ironic. Just like this article about "Joe Republican." http://www.andreaharner.com/archives/2004/11/a_day_in_the_life_of_joe_republi.html

Just my opinion. A tree-hugging liberal through and through and damn proud of it!

So can we please just agree to disagree on politics? Please?

[tjwash]

9. "You can thank the environmentalist ( go green freaks) for our high gas prices."

That's my pet peeve...yeah, the environmentalists have the most rich and powerful lobby on the beltway don't they? :eyes:

How much money and political influence does the oil industry have compared to the environmental movement? Do you really think Ronald Reagan and George H. Bush were going to let a bunch of pesky environmentalists get in the way of oil refineries being built if the oil companies had really wanted to build them?

[EC]

11. When aquintances of mine hit me with all that, I'll go ahead and

dispute like you did. But, if they also admitted to not caring for McCain, I'll ask them to just not vote, let the Dems have a chance and see if they end up liking their life a little better. Because all we are really asking for is the chance, since the Republicans have had 12 years control, it's past time for a change....


Sometimes I'll just say I can't agree with them because I'm far-sighted and Republicans tend to be myopic.

[borlis]

7. Oh, and here is what I originally sent her that had her pen me that response

SUBJECT: The Truth About John Sidney McCain III

If you only forward one email this year, make it this one... America needs to know the truth about John Sidney McCain III and the disaster that awaits us if he becomes president.

DID YOU KNOW? John McCain came back from Vietnam and cheated on his disabled wife before leaving her and his three children and marrying a rich heiress 17 years his junior. McCain obtained a marriage license for his second marriage while he was still married to his first wife. (1)

DID YOU KNOW? The McCains own ten homes, valued at more than $13 million, including TWO swanky beachfront condos in California. The McCains failed to pay taxes on one of those beach homes for the past four years. (2)(3)

DID YOU KNOW? The McCains have been known to charge hundreds of thousands of dollars IN A SINGLE MONTH on their credit cards. (4)

DID YOU KNOW? John McCain's chief economic adviser, rich Swiss Bank lobbyist Phil Gramm, recently told the Washington Times that the current economic crisis is a "mental recession" and said that America is a "nation of whiners." (5)

DID YOU KNOW? Earlier this year John McCain said, "I don't believe we're headed into a recession, I believe the fundamentals of this economy are strong and I believe they will remain strong." He also stated that, "The issue of economics is not something I've understood as well as I should." (6)

DID YOU KNOW? John McCain regularly plays craps for "a few thousand dollars at a time." He loves to gamble and is extremely superstitious. (7)(8)

DID YOU KNOW? John McCain recently called Social Security "an absolute disgrace." McCain was a big supporter of President Bush's unpopular plan to ditch Social Security and replace it with private accounts. (9)(10)

DID YOU KNOW? American taxpayers spend $340 million EVERY SINGLE DAY in Iraq. Yet John McCain thinks it would be okay to keep our brave troops there for up to "one hundred years." (11)(12)

DID YOU KNOW? Disabled American Veterans give John McCain a 20% rating on his voting record for Veterans, the worst score among all 100 senators (tied with Mike Crapo and Larry Craig). The Iraq and Afghanistan Veterans of America gave him a "D" rating. (13)(14)

DID YOU KNOW? John McCain says he wants to save the environmnent, but the League of Conservation Voters ranks him DEAD LAST among all 535 members of Congress, with a 0% rating. (15)

DID YOU KNOW? McCain has failed to vote on the last 19 environmental bills in the Senate, dating back to 2005. (16)

DID YOU KNOW? Every single day for the first four months of this year 1.6 million barrels of U.S. oil were exported to foreign countries - up 33% from last year - while our gas prices continue to go through the roof. The McCain/Bush solution is to give big oil companies even more opportunities to pollute our coastlines and despoil the Arctic National Wildlife Refuge. (17)(18)

DID YOU KNOW? The Department of Energy estimates that if we start the McCain/Bush offshore drilling plan today, we could lower gas prices by 6 cents - but not until the year 2025. (19)

DID YOU KNOW? John McCain, like George W. Bush, supports using the form of torture known as waterboarding. (20)

DID YOU KNOW? John McCain will continue George W. Bush's "rich get richer, poor get poorer" fiscal policies. If you make under $112,000 per year you will pay HIGHER taxes under John McCain than under Barack Obama. One quarter of McCain's tax breaks go to people making more than $2.8 million per year. (21)

(1) Infidelity: http://tinyurl.com/5k6f9r
(2) Ten homes: http://tinyurl.com/63wssh
(3) Tax default: http://tinyurl.com/6mxchp
(4) Credit cards: http://tinyurl.com/5hmyep
(5) Nation of whiners: http://tinyurl.com/6hsxo7
(6) No recession: http://tinyurl.com/585whv
(7) Gambling: http://tinyurl.com/57dxsd
(8) Superstition: http://tinyurl.com/68jfao
(9) Disgrace: http://tinyurl.com/6aus4k
(10) Privatization: http://tinyurl.com/69taza
(11) Cost of Iraq war: http://tinyurl.com/yv48rs
(12) 100 years: http://tinyurl.com/2pgk3t
(13) DAV rating: http://tinyurl.com/5h7j7r
(14) IAVA rating: http://tinyurl.com/5wqrwo
(15) Environment: http://tinyurl.com/557d4g
(16) Missed votes: http://tinyurl.com/6lq6j4
(17) Oil exports: http://tinyurl.com/5ruu3j
(18) Offshore drilling: http://tinyurl.com/5mg9cz
(19) 6 cents by 2025: http://tinyurl.com/5f2u8m
(20) Waterboarding: http://tinyurl.com/677m53
(21) Taxes: http://tinyurl.com/3pycml

[dysfunctional press]

8. sure- which way did you come in...?

:hi:

[calimary]

10. EXCELLENT! Just SUPERB!

I was going to send you "A Day in the Life of Joe Republican" but somebody beat me to it. It's a keeper, for sure.

Your responses are good. Even better - is that you sent 'em.

Don't let these crazies get the last word. They'll think they won the argument. I suspect with a lot of republi-CON voters/believers (the ones who aren't rich) have bought into the subtle GOP message that - if you keep voting for us, eventually YOU'LL be rich like we are!!! reagan even talked about that - how the republi-CON policies were better because they made it possible for others to get rich.

Well, all the fun pie-in-the-sky talk they offer sounds WONDERFUL, doesn't it? The problem is, it's just not realistic. It's a nice fairy story to spin, and it might work in the utopian vacuum of a CONservative think tank, but in the real world it is not workable, or viable. Real life just doesn't work out that way. But some of these people who refuse to believe that the wealthy, like the mccains here, do not have obligations to those less fortunate - (the whole "much blessed/much obligated" argument) I think - are really projecting off in the future when THEY somehow magically profit like King Midas from years of supporting republi-CON policies and agendas, and when they're rich, they won't want to be made to feel obligated to share a little more or help anybody else in need, either. They're just looking ahead - to Pie-in-the-Sky-land. Which will NEVER come. But the republi-CONS won't tell you that part of the story.

But if this friend of yours ever fell on seriously hard times, and needed some sort of public assistance or other kind of "handout," BELIEVE ME, that friend would run you over in haste to get there. Your friend would be fighting for first place in line for such a "handout." Guaranteed. And there'd be all kinds of interesting excuses and "but THIS is DIFFERENT!" canards, too. Bank on it.