PSA concerning Depression

[LeftyFingerPop]

Please excuse me for posting this in GD, but it will get more play here than in the Mental Health forum.

I fully intend on changing the world with this one post. :rofl:

A huge number of people in the world at large are familiar with depression, but another large segment of the population is not.

Here is what depression is: A mental ILLNESS that manifests itself in behavioral changes and changes in thought processes.

Note the emphasis on the word "illness".

Individuals who are profoundly depressed do not merely feel "sad". They feel "sick". They may not be able to function. They may not be able to physically get out of bed. They may not be able to stop crying. They may not be able to read or concentrate. They may not be able to make decisions.

I am writing this post because I am damn sick of hearing joking and offhanded comments in casual conversation from people who truly do not understand this illness. I keep hearing how we, as an enlightened society, have come so far in understanding what depression is.

In my opinion, that is bullshit, and it always will be bullshit, until we, as enlightened and empathetic people try to educate every time we hear someone say "just get over it" or "what do you have to be depressed about"?

It is an illness, and it hurts. It physically hurts because an organ in your body (your brain) is not functioning as it should. When depression is major, it hurts more than anything physical that can happen to you (broken leg, pneumonia, etc.).

We as a society need to stop SAYING that we understand it better today, when based on what I see, we truly do not.

[cliffordu]

1. What you said.

[helderheid]

2. RECOMMENDED!

[Tandalayo_Scheisskopf]

3. I deal with MCD every day.

My brother is a "just get over it!" afficionado. Of course, to add a little piquancy to the equation, he is a dry drunk and defaults to abusive in his relationships, such as they are and the few that they are.

If I could just get over it, I would have done that years ago. This ain't the most fun I have ever had with my clothes on.

[steve2470]

4. kicked, reced, been there doing that nt

[bryant69]

5. How is this disease, this illness diagnosed?

If you could answer that, if it could be diagnosed with a fairly high success rate, than it would do a lot to shut up people who think people should pull themselves together.

Bryant
Check it out --> http://politicalcomment.blogspot.com

[LeftyFingerPop]

7. Here is the irony with mental illness...

With physical illness, our brain provides our coping mechanism. For example:

We break our leg. We know something is wrong because it hurts and we cannot walk. Our brain tells us to get to the hospital quick. We go to the hospital, tell the doctor where it hurts, and get an x-ray. A cast is then applied. We use our brain subsequent to this to follow instructions that will help us heal (stay off it, get physical therapy, etc.).

With mental illnesses, the organ that helps us cope, our brain, is not working correctly. We know that something is "wrong", but we may not be sure what it is. We may not be able to explain our symptoms to a doctor. We may not be able to express ourselves, and we may be too confused to follow treatment if it is diagnosed. So, the very thing that helps us cope with illnesses, our brain, in not working well, so we may have trouble coping with depression.

A good doctor can diagnose depression fairly easily by asking a series of the right questions. The problem is, there are many doctors who either do not understand it themselves, or they minimize it.

[The Doctor.]

10. That's a fair assesment.

[Voice for Peace]

39. Another problem is that many doctors are quick to label everything as depression

and prescribe antidepressants, when it's not what the person needs. I personally think medication is called for only in extreme cases and as a short-term solution. Depression is a complex illness. It has many parts & causes; and I believe each case is unique, even if there are similar manifestations.

There are legitimate physical, emotional, and cognitive aspects to depression and I think each part needs to be examined and worked with. I have spent a lifetime studying this from the inside out.

What many people call "depression" is often a phase, a mood, a change of life -- and for such people, pulling themselves up by their bootstraps, "getting over it" and so on is effective. Such people don't usually comprehend the utter hopelessness and paralysis experienced by people who are seriously, earnestly depressed.

One aspect of major depression is rooted in the wiring of the brain itself, often linked to early-life trauma... not necessarily a genetic disease. Although there may be a genetic predisposition to depression, this CAN be compensated for. (I don't personally think medication is the best way to do this, although many disagree with me, and I respect that it seems to help many people.)

An excellent new application of neurofeedback, called "Brain State Training" is showing a great deal of success in helping people with this aspect of depression, and anyone who's interested can look at their website: http://www.brainstatetech.com/

But this is, in my opinion, only one piece. Understanding onesself; re-learning how to feel; releasing a lifetime of stored up grief and anger, using diet and supplements to support the brain function; knowing what is at the origin of the paralysis and hopelessness; changing thought habits; all of these. For each person the depression is unique, its causes and origins are unique to that person, and the route to wellness and happiness is also unique.

Within every human being there is a brilliant physician, innate. Depression is not incurable. I have been told a million times that it is; I know it is not.

[ColbertWatcher]

42. Forgive me for being skeptical, but you'll need to back up your claim with some facts. n/t

[Voice for Peace]

88. I probably can't give you the kind of facts you want. Whatever I may claim is based

purely on my own first-hand experience of lifelong "chronic" "incurable" "genetic" "clinical" depression -- and my own analysis plus observations I have made of others as I've worked on myself.

It's hard to put a convincing argument into a short post on DU. I would be very happy to discuss my own experience at length with anyone interested, please feel free to pm me.

The bottom line is there was no treatment or explanation of depression that satisfied me or worked for me long-term. I felt as if I had no choice but to figure this out for myself, with the help of my own unconscious. It has been a fascinating journey & 100% rewarding. I would say, not for the faint of heart, but maybe that sounds arrogant. But I don't feel any arrogance in regards to this. I am certain that if a person undertakes to cure themselves, with the right kind of support it is possible.

[ColbertWatcher]

94. I meant to prove that "many doctors are quick to label everything as depression" n/t

[Voice for Peace]

98. OK.. well that is just a generalization... based on what I hear from people, and how loosely

the term depression is thrown around. I've known many people who say they are depressed, or whose doctors or well-meaning friends or parents suggest they are depressed -- and they are quickly prescribed antidepressants. But from my observation, most of them have not suffered from what I know as depression, and what I think the OP is talking about.

[ColbertWatcher]

103. Okay, I just think it was that type of "generalization" that the OP meant...

...of course, I am speaking for myself.

:hi:

[Voice for Peace]

192. interesting.. I'm not sure how you see it that way but

appreciate your pointing it out. Pretty much everything I write comes from my personal experience or observations; I should build that in as a caveat.

[ColbertWatcher]

251. "I'm not sure how you see it that way but"

I was only speaking for myself (which is why I could "see it that way")

:hi:

[Voice for Peace]

253. aha.. you got me there.

but you know what I meant. I do try, anyway, to see things from other people's perspectives.

[ColbertWatcher]

254. Yes, but, I try not to guess what other people are thinking. I can only speak for myself.

And I didn't mean to make it seem like a "gotcha", more like an explanation of what I meant.

:hi:

[Voice for Peace]

259. I understand.. I was just laughing at myself

anyway this could get complicated...

[yellowdogintexas]

119. beats hell out of the highly addictive valium that drs used to presribe automatically

for everything that bothered women. And some of them still do prescribe it.

Don't get Tranqs and antidepressants confused. They work in entirely different ways.

[Runcible Spoon]

115. just google "depression". BAM #1 site (paid to be there) GlaxoSmithKline website for ya.

http://www.depression.com/ 16% of Americans are (diagnosed) depressed at some point, according to GlaxoSmithKline.

You can probably google Big Pharma's profits from drugs prescribed for depression and make the inference for yourself.

*on edit: I'm not minimizing anyone's experience with meds; just pointing out that there ARE a lot of diagnoses and a LOT of prescriptions written and I find anything that benefits big pharma to be worrisome. Doesn't mean I support the "buck up little camper and get some sunshine" attitudes...

[electropop]

187. I have gotten benefit from ADs; also from Omega-3 and St John's Wort

For me, each seems to improve specific symptoms, so the combination is working pretty well.

[Voice for Peace]

193. Yes.. I saw this in particular when my kids were in high school.

In one of the supposedly "best" high schools in the country, too -- highly medicated population, and I'm not talking about pot or lsd. The legal stuff.

At a time of life when the turmoil of being a teenager ought to be propelling them to more creativity, innovation, and self-awareness, it's diagnosed as ADD and/or depression and medicated very quickly. This helps produce good generic little citizens.

[Raksha]

210. As someone who has had ADD my entire life,

but didn't know it until I was 57 years old (I'm now 62) it absolutely infuriates me to hear this kind of crap! ADD is NOT "overdiagnosed"! It is still UNDERdiagnosed, because until the 1990s it was almost completely unrecognized, especially as it presents in girls and women, who are usually not hyperactive (although they can be).

Re At a time of life when the turmoil of being a teenager ought to be propelling them to more creativity, innovation, and self-awareness, it's diagnosed as ADD and/or depression and medicated very quickly. This helps produce good generic little citizens.

This topic is about depression, but it's tempting to go on an extended rant right now about how it feels to grow up knowing you're intelligent and creative, and at the same time knowing there is this mysterious "something" that keeps you from actualizing it. And the worst thing was that the shrinks had no clue either.

As for medication, for most of my life I've been unmedicated--UNDER-medicated when I was lucky! Even when I suffered from panic attacks several times a day, the best I was able to get was something like 15 Valiums with no refills, on an "emergency" basis. I know all about overmedication, though. My sister was addicted to Valium and ended up dying of an overdose in 1984. But she was living in Israel where they still over-prescribed it, after American doctors had woken up to the fact that it's highly addicting.

I've never taken medication for ADD (no health insurance). But Omega-3 and certain behavior modification techniques also work.

[Voice for Peace]

214. I don't agree with you, because I've worked in a school, and raised kids, and have seen

a lot of ADD diagnoses that was used as a quick fix for underlying issues that medication does not solve. I think this is because of two reasons:

1. the public school system overall is simply not conducive to normal healthy childhood and adolescence, but is rather like a minimum security prison -- in too many instances. (I know there are exceptional schools, and exceptional teachers. I know I am making a broad generalization but it's based on first-hand observation over many years, from both within and outside that system.) Kids watch too much TV, and eat too much crappy food; computer games and television affect the ability of the human brain to focus on the kind of learning being expected in schools. Most of the subject matter taught does not interest kids, and has little relevance to real life. So they are bored, it is hard to focus on homework, there is a tendency to act out, and so on. Put a kid on ritalin and in most cases he will do his homework happily; he will fit in energetically to the system. From a bit I've read, it's my understanding that medication for ADD risks long term effects; some research points to a relationship to dementia, alzheimers. It is just bad for the brain, long term, which I think is common sense.

2. The profit incentive of the pharmaceutical industry, as well as the medical insurance industry, which encourages doctors to make "safe" (ie, AMA sanctioned) choices rather than risk lawsuits.

I had a doctor prescribe ADD medication for me. I have never had ADD. I just described some of what I was going through, with difficulty focusing during a particular point of my life, and he called it "Adult ADD" and put me on drugs. Was an interesting couple of years. I really don't think most doctors know what they're doing.

I also don't think people are all right or all wrong, there is valid argument on both sides of these issues.

But really there is no need to write something to me like "this kind of crap" -- in response to what is my personal perspective and experience -- it doesn't contribute to humanity, nor to DU. Thoughtfulness goes a long way; please think about it.

[Runcible Spoon]

231. EXCELLENT post.

I agree that medications have taken the place of having enough resources and staff in schools.

[The Doctor.]

238. Also agree.

Just making the first period of the school day some kind of exercise or phys-ed class (after they've had breakfast) would have a tremendous effect on attentiveness and acuity. Add good nutrition, and I guarantee average grades rise 2-5%.

[The Doctor.]

237. You and Raksha are essentially both right.

Attention Deficit (Hyperactivity) Disorder is very real, and often caused by an over-abundance of dopamine reuptake enzymes.

It is real, and it is considered a 'disorder' for the very reasons you're talking about; schools are not designed to deal properly with it.

ADD is actually a fascinating condition because the ADD subject, once mature, has developed some very unique cognitive techniques for filtering and processing information. They will tend to think in the abstract, and grasp very complex systems as a whole. One of the reasons these kids are so kinetic is that they are unable to filter out their physical environment from their thought process, and therefore wind up incorporating the kintetic universe into their very consciousness.

Suffice it to say, the 'deficiency' has a number of very interesting alternative effects on development.


I do not recommend a GP when it comes to diagnosing ADD. They just aren't generally equipped for it. No diagnosis should come out of less than five sessions with a competent Psychologist. I also don't recommend a Psychiatrist as there is a definite motive for dispensing medication. I agree that in many cases, it is over diagnosed in children who are just acting like children should, but there are signs that a competent Psychologist will look for to make an accurate determination.

Memory alone is no indicator of ADHD, because a child can have an excellent memory and still have ADHD. An ADHD child will also tend to have the ability to focus very intensely for periods between 20 minutes to a few hours. These may be seldom and far between, and if so, are a good positive indication. One should look more for spatial acuity, especially any direct correlation between thought and action. If the subject, as an adult, cannot resist, say... 'talking with their hands', that may be a fair indication. A child, on the other hand, may get up and physically go to an object you ask them about. Say, point to a statue on a shelf and say, "What do you think of that?", the ADHD child will more often go straight to it, pick it up, and then tell you what it is because part of the identification process includes the inability to filter passive and active recognition.

There are many indicators to look for, which is why a competent psychologist, especially one with the right experience, is very important to the process. A GP will only be concerned with 'whether' you can focus or not, or whether you're 'forgetful'. Those can be signs of many other things as well.

Even after a positive diagnosis, the pest remedies are nutrition and exercise to help balance brain chemistry... and there are scads of good books out on that by now.

[Raksha]

271. I'm sorry I went off on you like that, but this is very much

a hot-button issue with me so I tend to react without thinking. Because I DO have adult ADD, didn't know it until I was 57 years old, have NEVER had medication for it and have no idea how I'd react. I'm still angry that I had such a hard time getting medication for my anxiety attacks, a very common co-existing condition...as is depression, BTW.

Re But really there is no need to write something to me like "this kind of crap" -- in response to what is my personal perspective and experience -- it doesn't contribute to humanity, nor to DU. Thoughtfulness goes a long way; please think about it.

I agree that I should have expressed myself more tactfully. That kind of knee-jerk hostility does nothing to shed light on any subject.

[Voice for Peace]

274. thank you

this response means a lot to me, restores my faith in human beings.

so often there is a chain reaction of people going off, one after another, each setting off the next; and the next thing you know we are bombing somebody, and it all starts out so small. often here on DU I see this happening and I wonder, doesn't anybody see this is where wars begin?

[Runcible Spoon]

230. I don't agree, as long as we're going off anecdotal evidence...

half of my peers in grad school all had legal Ritalin and Adderall prescriptions they got from faking symptoms to psychiatrists. It's not hard at all.

ADHD and ADD are disgustingly over-diagnosed because the medications can be used recreationally and people abuse that. I won't get into medicating kids to "behave" as a substitute for actually adequately staffing schools.

I'm glad you have found relief for your condition, however, and I'm not suggesting it's a fictional disorder.

[Raksha]

239. That must be a fairly recent phenomenon.

Re half of my peers in grad school all had legal Ritalin and Adderall prescriptions they got from faking symptoms to psychiatrists. It's not hard at all.

ADHD and ADD are disgustingly over-diagnosed because the medications can be used recreationally and people abuse that. I won't get into medicating kids to "behave" as a substitute for actually adequately staffing schools.

I mean people faking the symptoms of ADD to get a prescription for Ritalin, etc. The phenomenon itself is nothing new--in the 1960s I knew students who used similar drugs (benzedrine, etc.) to get through finals. They'd stay awake for three days or so and then collapse. But it was all a very underground thing. Nobody would have thought to fake the symptoms of ADD because nobody knew about it or talked about it, except for a few therapists who worked with hyperactive boys. But the general public didn't know anything about it.

I was afraid to take uppers of any kind, because the whole idea of using them to focus was (and still is) counterintuitive. Sure, in the Sixties counterculture I knew a lot of people who took them recreationally. Some of them may have been people with undiagnosed ADD who were self-medicating, but I have no way of knowing about that one way or the other. Some were speed freaks who became addicted to them, and then there were the students who didn't normally use them, except to stay awake for finals.

The usual phrase to describe me in those days was "high-strung." I was afraid uppers would make me even MORE high-strung and wired than I was already, so I avoided them like the plague. If I had to stay up all night for a final I drank tons of coffee instead. I'm still addicted to the stuff--probably self-medicating.

Re I'm glad you have found relief for your condition, however, and I'm not suggesting it's a fictional disorder.

Not really. A little bit of relief, maybe...but the way I look at I've barely scratched the surface. There is an enormous amount of damage to undo, and I have no idea if it will ever really be undone. The biggest relief of all was just knowing there's a NAME for it.

[RainDog]

97. Emotional Trauma changes your brain

Dr. Sapolsky
(is a professor of biology and neurology at Stanford University and the author of both popular and academic books related to stress and its effect) ...discusses the biology of how stress affects the body. When one is stressed, the body secretes hormones called glucocorticosteroids. It's known that these can damage the nervous system, causing neurons to shrivel up or even killing them, in a part of the brain called the hippocampus. The hippocampus is essential for learning and memory. He said new imaging techniques now have allowed researchers to see that in people with recurrent depression, there is atrophy of the hippocampus. This clearly shows depression is biological. We discuss these findings in greater detail in the second half of the show

http://www.lcmedia.com/mind424.htm

Dr. Duman then comments on his work on the cellular level. Not long ago it was discovered that, contrary to what had been believed, new neurons are actually born in the brain, specifically in the hippocampus. This process is called neurogenesis. Stress blocks the process of neurogenesis, so one theory as to why the hippocampus atrophies in depression is that no new cells are being born (other theories include that the cells are shrinking or being killed directly). Dr. Duman has shown that both antidepressants and ECT - electro convulsive therapy -- actually increase the rate of adult neurogenesis. Dr. Sheline says that in her studies, only untreated days of depression contributed to the hippocampal volume loss, so it does seem that, for whatever reason, antidepressant medication does prevent atrophy of the hippocampus.

---

Date: 01/08/2008
Autopsies usually point to a cause of death but now a study of brain tissue collected during these procedures, may explain an underlying cause of major depression and suicide. The international research group, led by Dr. Michael O. Poulter of Robarts Research Institute at The University of Western Ontario and Dr. Hymie Anisman of the Neuroscience Research Institute at Carleton University, is the first to show that proteins that modify DNA directly are more highly expressed in the brains of people who commit suicide. These proteins are involved in chemically modifying DNA in a process called epigenomic regulation. The paper is published in Biological Psychiatry.

http://www.scientistlive.com/lab/?/Genetics/2008/07/31/20827/DNA_change_during_depression_and_suicide/

more- http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2002/10/28/tech/main527259.shtml

co-morbidity with ptsd (study of children)
http://www.psychiatrictimes.com/post-traumatic-stress-disorder/article/10168/52871

---

[BrklynLiberal]

153. YES! I have read and heard that as well. Emotional trauma can actually

cause physical changes in the brain that result in imbalances in the chemicals, I.E. Seratonin.
So not all depression is the result of EARLY trauma. It can develop later in life for any number of reasons...

[RainDog]

157. With magnetic stimulation - differences noted in the brains of depressed subjects

this is positive b/c it claims the changes to the brain that occur b/c of depression do not have to be permanent. Assuming, of course, that someone gets better.

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/1999/08/990813004437.htm

Researchers measured the brain's responsiveness using magnetic stimulation over the brain and targeted muscle movement. "Our results show that the brain's responsiveness or 'excitability' after exercise is different in healthy people compared with those who are depressed," said study author Klaus Ebmeier, MD, with the University of Edinburgh and Royal Edinburgh Hospital, United Kingdom. "Furthermore, the responsiveness or excitability returns to more healthy levels in recovered depressed people. This supports the notion that reduced brain excitability in depression is a reversible state."

Transcranial Magnetic Stimulation as a treatment for depression

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2005/05/050510184200.htm

To read this article, you'd have to get a copy from your local state U...they'll have a subscription to Project Muse. (If you can dial in to a U. computer, you can access it too. Otherwise it's only the abstract.

http://muse.jhu.edu/login?uri=/journals/philosophy_psychiatry_and_psychology/v009/9.3glannon02.html

An acute stress response can protect an organism from external threats and reestablish homeostasis. But a chronic stress response can cause the body's defenses to become damaging rather than protective and to result in various disorders. Acute stress responses are adaptive. Chronic stress responses are often maladaptive...

...related to the secretion of glucocorticoids (cortisol) and catecholemines (epinephrine and norepinephrine).

[BrklynLiberal]

158. Excellent. Thanks so much.

I am going to investigate these links.

[undergroundpanther]

168. Hell yes it does!!

One of the overlooked aspects about the origins of mental illness,it isn't just a dysfunctional brain it is dysfunctional families relationships and culture..

[RainDog]

226. More links on brain differences

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2004/08/040804090102.htm

"A brain imaging study by the NIH's National Institute of Mental Health (NIMH) has found that an emotion-regulating brain circuit is overactive in people prone to depression — even when they are not depressed. Researchers discovered the abnormality in brains of those whose depressions relapsed when a key brain chemical messenger was experimentally reduced. Even when in remission, most subjects with a history of mood disorder experienced a temporary recurrence of symptoms when their brains were experimentally sapped of tryptophan, the chemical precursor of serotonin, the neurotransmitter that is boosted by antidepressants"

"Neither a placebo procedure in patients nor tryptophan depletion in healthy volunteers triggered the mood and brain activity changes." (Aug. 2004)

EAT TURKEY! (for the typtophan - this substance was banned for sale as a supplement b/c of a bad batch of Japanese tryptophan - I don't know if that has changed or not.) ...and, sorry, turkeys.

--

http://www.nimh.nih.gov/science-news/2008/depression-patients-brain-circuitry-makes-them-vulnerable-to-relapse.shtml

Using brain imaging, NIMH researchers have produced direct evidence that people prone to depression -- even when they're feeling well -- have abnormal mood-regulating brain circuitry. This makes them vulnerable to relapse when levels of certain key brain chemical messengers plummet.

Wayne Drevets, M.D., of the NIMH Mood and Anxiety Disorders Program, Gregor Hasler, M.D., now at University Hospital, Zurich, Switzerland, and colleagues reported on their positron emission tomography (PET) scan study in the May 2008 Archives of General Psychiatry.

---

fwiw

--
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2005/05/050509165539.htm

"A brain scan study suggests that a suspect gene may increase susceptibility to anxiety and depression* by weakening a circuit for processing negative emotion. People with the depression-linked gene variant showed less gray matter and weaker connections in the mood-regulating circuit. How well the circuit was connected accounted for nearly 30 percent of their anxious temperament, "

--
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/03/080312172620.htm

One gene that has been shown to increase the risk for depression in the context of multiple stressful life events is the gene for the serotonin transporter protein.

This gene is responsible for making the protein that is targeted by all current drug treatments for depression. In a number of studies it has been shown that people who inherit one form of this gene, called SLC6A4, are at up to four times the risk of depression if they experience unusual stresses in their lives. Basic science experiments and imaging studies in normal people suggest that the way this form of the gene affects risk for depression is by impacting on the development of a system in the brain that mediates how negative environmental stresses and threats feel.

--

amygdala, depression and autism

http://www.come-over.to/FAS/amygdala.htm

(also of interest to researchers - the interaction of depression and epilepsy... not only does epilepsy "provoke" depression, depression put someone at greater risk of seizures.)

4 diff. studies report reduction in the hippocamus AND increases in the amygdala in depressed subjects.
http://ajp.psychiatryonline.org/cgi/content/full/158/4/652-a

--
what's interesting about these newest findings about physiological brain differences is that the hippocamus and amygdala are part of the limbic system.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Limbic_system

---

for some people, depression is not cured but oftentimes "managed." (Treatment Resistant Depression - a specific category with specific traits.)

http://www.nimh.nih.gov/science-news/2006/subsequent-treatment-strategies-for-persistent-depression-yield-modest-results.shtml
and
http://www.nimh.nih.gov/science-news/2006/odds-of-beating-depression-diminish-as-additional-treatment-strategies-are-needed.shtml

[ekwhite]

186. With all due respect

Your post is full of shite. Depression is not a "phase" that you can "just get over." This is not just being bummed out - it is seriously debilitating - not being able to get out of bed, suicidal thoughts debilitating. There is also a definite genetic aspect to clinical depression - it is not just childhood trauma, it is an imbalance in neurochemicals.

Quit peddling your quack cures.

[Voice for Peace]

196. I'm not sure why you posted this response, or if it was actually related to what I wrote.

I never said that depression is a phase that you can get over. I said a lot of people go through troubling phases, which they can and do get over -- and it often gets labelled as depression, and even medicated.

It's often such people who tell people who are seriously depressed to just get over it, or just take a pill.
That kind of so-called "depression" has nothing to do with the kind of real, debilitating, paralyzing struggle & suffering that people with serious depression experience.

[Voice for Peace]

198. also.. I'm not peddling any quack cures!

and I don't disagree that there is a genetic component to depression. I feel you read what I wrote hastily and just reacted.

I know the kind of depression you describe. I lived with it for most of my life. I come from a long line of people who suffered with similar depression.

But I was always told that what I had was incurable, genetic, clinical, etc. And because nothing that was ever prescribed for me -- whether it was pharmaceuticals or quack cures -- ever worked for me. So I felt I had to study it myself, from the inside out, gain my own understanding of it. Not just accept the definitions from the AMA or the many well-meaning people who thought they knew what I should do.

And what I have discovered, for myself, is what I was writing about. I'm not peddling a quack cure because I don't have one. But I am sure that if a person undertakes to cure themselves, it is possible. Maybe the neurotransmitter peculiarities which are genetic can never be fixed, and maybe medications are needed by some people for that part of it. But there are many parts to depression, and that's only one.

And I think one important part, that people are too quick to dismiss, is that we turn over our well-being, our own health, to people who in fact don't really know what they are doing.. they are just experimenting. I don't like being experimented on, not by doctors or pharmaceutical industries.

[ColbertWatcher]

41. When you go to the right kind of doctor...

...the right kinds of questions get asked. No real doctor (or one who is properly trained) will minimize it or fail to understand it.

Those kinds of "doctors" are simply not doctors at all.

[LeftyFingerPop]

45. I had a GP once slap me on the back and say....

C'mon...what does a guy like you have to be depressed about?

They are out there.

[ColbertWatcher]

49. If it's depression a GP is not the right doctor. n/t

[LeftyFingerPop]

51. True, I was getting treated by the proper specialty...

but I was just amazed that a physician of ANY kind would say this.

[ColbertWatcher]

54. Yeah, you wonder how someone with that kind of attitude would even consider...

...working with people.

That kind of attitude is definitely "behind-the-scenes" people skills.

[undergroundpanther]

169. Bush's New freedom crap

changed the need for a trained psych.The TMAP,(Texas Medication Algorithm Project)is a series of questions GP's can ask and diagnose depression..pathetic ain't it?

http://www.onlinejournal.com/health/052705Pringle/052705pringle.html

[The Doctor.]

258. OMG.

That's like telling police to fight fires at the drop of the hat.

[yellowdogintexas]

120. probably went through Med School before 1970 too.

That is when Family Practice as a true specialty, with its own residency program and board certifications came on to the scene.

If your MD is a board certified Fam Prac MD, he /she was trained to ask certain questions when certain patterns of symptomology are related by the patient.

To a certain extent Ob Gyns educated after 1970's are going to be more aware. It just wasn't being taught in med school and residency .

I KNOW for a fact that my dad's doctor did not catch it and he was a very astute practitioner. He didn't catch it because he had to rely on what my father told him and what my father told him wasn't enough for him to catch on to it.

[Turbineguy]

203. Good point!

I think a lot of symptoms can easily be lost in the noise of the stress of everyday modern life.

[zanne]

216. I wonder if the social stigma is worse with men? nt

[sammythecat]

100. Good analogy n/t

[electropop]

185. The DSM provides specific clinical criteria. It's not difficult for doctors to diagnose.

This is an excerpt from DSM IV - there is more, because depression can come in varying severity, and can occur episodically, etc.

DSM IV
Major Depressive Episode

A. Five (or more) of the following symptoms have been present during the same 2-week period and represent a change from previous functioning; at least one of the symptoms is either (1) depressed mood or (2) loss of interest or pleasure.

Note: Do note include symptoms that are clearly due to a general medical condition, or mood-incongruent delusions or hallucinations.

(1) depressed mood most of the day, nearly every day, as indicated by either subjective report (e.g., feels sad or empty) or observation made by others (e.g., appears tearful). Note: In children and adolescents, can be irritable mood.

(2) markedly diminished interest or pleasure in all, or almost all, activities most of the day, nearly every day (as indicated by either subjective account or observation made by others)

(3) significant weight loss when not dieting or weight gain (e.g., a change of more than 5% of body weight in a month), or decrease or increase in appetite nearly every day. Note: In children, consider failure to make expected weight gains.

(4) insomnia or hypersomnia nearly every day

(5) psychomotor agitation or retardation nearly every day (observable by others, not merely subjective feelings of restlessness or being slowed down)

(6) fatigue or loss of energy nearly every day

(7) feelings of worthlessness or excessive or inappropriate guilt (which may be delusional) nearly every day (not merely self-reproach or guilt about being sick)

(8) diminished ability to think or concentrate, or indecisiveness, nearly every day (either by subjective account or as observed by others)

(9) recurrent thoughts of death (not just fear of dying), recurrent suicidal ideation without a specific plan, or a suicide attempt or a specific plan for committing suicide

[Apollo11]

189. This definition is a joke

Notice how if you have 4 symptoms you are NOT having a Major Depressive Episode.

So for example if I experience symptoms 1, 2, 6 & 8 - I am still in the clear!

But then add weight gain (3) or insomnia (4) and suddenly I make the cut.

Happiness is a spectrum - with happy all the time at one end and happy none of the time at the other end.

Most of us are somewhere along this spectrum and rarely stay in exactly the same place for long.

The idea that we can categorize everyone into 2 boxes: "depressed" and "not depressed" is way over-simplified, IMHO.

[electropop]

190. I pointed out that this is only an excerpt - there are many other parts,

defining types of depression other than major episodes. But yes, the DSM is imperfect. I look forward to the next release, which I hope will address problems in various sections.

[Connonym]

272. The problem with this list and the diagnosis of depression

is that a lot of it relies on the patient's self-reporting subjective symptoms and even if the physician specifically queries the patient about these symptoms it's possible for the patient to under or over estimate the level of debilitation. This is especially troublesome in the case of a person with a long history of chronic depression. If you don't recall ever feeling not depressed how can you adequately assess yourself? Then you must take into consideration that oftentimes people feel shame and do not want to admit to some of these feelings. I'm the veteran of decades of war against depression and it's not that hard to pretend everything is okay for the duration of a 15 minute office visit. In an extreme period of depression I would suffer at home in silence and not go to the doctor. It was only in a (relative) lull in the depression that I could force myself to shower, dress and leave the house. The doctor never had a chance to see me at my worst because at my worst I would be at home avoiding the outside world.

[Flying Dream Blues]

6. I agree. Thanks for a valuable post! nt

[Prophet 451]

8. Seconded

And can I add that I am sick and fucking tired of being told that I just need to stop taking my meds, turn my troubles over to Jesus/Allah/Xenu, pull myself together, take up gardening, etc.

[mopinko]

12. the stupidity about drugs

is just criminal. people can turn a frozen brain, and a troubled life into a functioning brain living a worthwhile life. just like a diabetic can stay healthy. just like a person with hiv can turn around a death sentence. just like an asthmatic can breathe freely.
modern medicine is not perfect. but it is saving lives every day. people need to stfu about people who need "PILLLLLS!" to stay healthy. i know that folks with other diseases get shit, too. diabetics are told to eat right and exercise, and they can live without the evil shots. and talk to any group of people about any disease and you are likely to get a story about their aunt fanny who cured herself. but really people, the correct response when someone tells you that they are taking medication for depression is- good for you. i know it must have been hard to get where you are. congratulations.
then stfu.

[Arnold Judas Rimmer]

56. Depends on what you mean by "medication"

Depression is caused by an imbalance in brain chemistry. So if something you take corrects that brain chemistry, it would be considered "medication", wouldn't it?

I would recommend the natural 5-HTP over anything produced by a pharmaceutical corporation. All the benefits, none of the bad side effects. Actually some good side effects, like suppressing carbohydrate cravings, because better nutrition definitely does help with depression even though it is not the solution in and of itself. It's entirely possible that processed crappy food might be a factor in throwing the brain chemistry off track in the first place.

[sammythecat]

109. I never heard of that till now.

I did a bit of googling, it looked promising and legitimate enough to give it a try, so I just ordered some.

[mopinko]

111. yeah the beauty of your "alternative " cure is that they never have to prove

anything. not only efficacy, but safety. and the herb doctors have a lobby as strong as big pill.
when the ephedra deaths were reported, we saw that these people not only knew their product was dangerous, but knew people were dying.
i'll take the guys who do that science shit, thanks.



at any rate, my comments were intended to point out that this kind of advice to someone on medication whose life is livable for a change does not need to hear this kind of shit.

[Arnold Judas Rimmer]

163. If a medication is working well for someone, that is a good thing.

But if the side effects aren't worth it, then is it really improving their quality of life?

I don't talk about 5 HTP because I hate pharmaceutical poisons and simply want to suggest an alternative. I recommend it because it saved my life. And in that respect, I consider myself an "expert witness".

Is it possible that there are dangers with some natural remedies, such as with ephedra? Sure there is, though in that case, it was probably something that was greatly exaggerated. Never cared much for ephedra myself, and some people don't handle it well, just like caffeine. But that doesn't mean we should take coffee off the market.

[The Doctor.]

233. What about pasta?

And other serotinin-boosting nutrients?

[elehhhhna]

20. hey! It works for diabetes, crohn's & other diseases. Doesn't it?

:sarcasm:

[cliffordu]

47. Me. Fucking. too.

[The Doctor.]

9. Yes, depression is a 'mental illness' that can be solved with 'mental effort'.

Those efforts include going for walks, setting goals, eating right, drinking water, avoiding drugs, and getting to the root of the problem through introspection.

I know, I've been clinically depressed on and off for years. I pratically have a knack for it by now.

It's not easy. The odds are against you when your neurochemistry is skewed. Doing any of those things is hard, let alone all of them. But once you start, it gets easier.

The drug companies love to tell people that everything is a 'disease' or an 'illness' that can be cured with their expensive drugs. While depression is indeed an illness, it's one that is better treated with proper diet and activity.

[LeftyFingerPop]

13. Tell someone with chronic, major depression...

this. Tell someone that cannot figure out how to tie their own shoes to "go for a walk".

We are talking about two different things here.

[The Doctor.]

27. I have, but it takes more than just 'telling someone to go for a walk'.

Proper treatment includes proper diet and activity.

Depression is far more acute when the victim is eating garbage or not eating at all, not drinking water, and not getting exercise. If you've suffered from depression, you'd know that.

[LeftyFingerPop]

29. Please don't tell me what I would know...

You have no idea.

My guess is that you have not experienced MCD in the clinical sense.

Don't engage me...I see what you are up to, and this is my last bite.

[The Doctor.]

32. I'm not 'up to' anything.

I've indeed experienced clinical depression, and these things work for people more often than you think. The trick is, and if you actually read my post you'd know, getting into a 'new' regimen when you're literally disabled.

Don't tell someone they have "no idea" and then tell them not to 'engage' you. I have more than an 'idea', and I know quite personally what it is like and how hard it is. I've had practice bringing myself back from the edge both with and without drugs, and I've helped others with improving their symptoms as well.

If you're trying to tell me that people who suffer from depression don't need to eat right, stay hydrated, avoid drugs and alcohol, and get their endorphines and vo2 efficiency up, then you're not going to help anyone with your post.

I found a post that rightly states that depression can be an illness, as clinical depression usually is. So I added information that can alleviate some of the suffering while acknowledging that it's not easy.

If you're just looking to be offended, and outrage helps you with your depression, then I'm glad I could help. But why don't you go to my first post in this thread and tell me exactly what is wrong with it.

If you can't do that, then it's apparent you're the one who's "up to" something besides earnest discussion.

[Apollo11]

191. Depressed people cannot tie their own shoes?

Thanks for this info. Now I will know how to recognize when I am depressed.

In the meantime - I will continue to believe that regular exercise makes me feel better.

[Voice for Peace]

245. You are right about regular exercise, but with serious depression, so often,

there's a kind of paralysis. You know exercise would make you feel better but you can not make yourself do it.

I remember well one day looking at my vitamins, and feeling like I didn't know how to take them; unable to walk across the room and open the bottle and swallow a pill. People who haven't experienced this stuff themselves, or been close to someone like this, have a hard time understanding and tend to judge... like "get over it, already."

[Gregorian]

18. Depression is often the result of sleep apnea.

I've been paying close attention to sleep apnea for over a decade now. I was in denial that i had the problem.

There's too much to discuss in one tiny post. How disturbing it is to be in a society that values profit more than health. Very few doctors realize how prevalent and significant sleep apnea is. I'm extremely physically active. And that is why I doubted I had the problem. As society gets bigger and more complex, we are under more stress. And it can be a cycle where depression leads to apnea, in my opinion. Although most people believe apnea is obstructive in nature, I believe it's more mental in nature, including central apneas. Argh. I'm flailing away on keys.

We have problems that our doctors can't, won't, or don't diagnose. Besides, a sleep study is five grand or so. Who has the cash for that?

My answer to most problems, as usual, is smaller, less, slower, quieter, friendlier. In a nutshell, we need to back up fifty or more years.

Sorry if this is a blurted out post. Just know that depression is often a symptom.

[The Doctor.]

31. Yep, water and air....

Efficiencey is key.

When we can't breath, sleep, or hydrate, the brain doesn't function very well. So very many things can lead to depression. Indeed, you are correct when you say that it is often a symptom, rather than an illness in and of itself.

[ColbertWatcher]

44. "depression is often a symptom." Please provide proof for your claim. n/t

[Gregorian]

65. It can be both a stand alone or symptomatic.

I speak from experience, as I've had both.

With sleep apnea it's now more apparent to me than ever that much of my depression is directly caused by sleep disturbance. Today I'm clear as a bell. Yesterday I wanted life over. Now I can correlate my sleep data directly with my day.

On the other hand, I find that since Little Hitler obtained office, I've been depressed quite a bit more.

And still, this can be completely different from someone with clinical depression that is not the result of external strife or something like apnea. But after spending nearly ten years on the apnea forum, the testimonies are outrageous. People who were diagnosed and taking medications only to discover that they didn't have depression as a cause, but apnea.

I have no arguments with anyone on this subject. I just think it's good to keep an open mind in order to not eliminate possibilities.

[ColbertWatcher]

77. With sleep disturbances and depression, it may be a chicken-egg thing as well. n/t

[The Doctor.]

145. That's one of the traps.

Sometimes it can start as one, and spiral out of control. I've been there myself. Insomnia for days because you're so upset that you can't sleep or deal with anything, until you take something to knock you out... only to wake up feeling worse.

[ColbertWatcher]

175. Or, instead of self-medicating, a doctor prescribes something...

...and you get better over time.

[The Doctor.]

220. And you get very fat.

I think it's funny how people really are taught to be helpless with their own medical conditions. My son had a bad bug this summer. I told his mother that what he needed was a little acetaminophen, an expectorant, lots of hydration preferebly with electrolytes, some soup, a hot bath and some rest.

She took him to the pediatrician.

The pediatrician told her that he needed plenty of fluids and rest. She asked if there was something he could prescribe. He gave her a script for acetaminophen with an expectorant.

The co-pay for the script was the same as just buying the stuff. The visit co-pay would have covered two days worth of gatorade and soup.


As for meds, sure, when all reasonable approaches fail, or if even the approach is impossible, then of course one can go to the meds. Unfortunately, we find that in most cases, the meds just trade one problem for another. The trick is to alleviate the first problem long enough to get a handle on it with other approaches, and do so quickly enough that the new issues don't require treatment once off the meds.

[ColbertWatcher]

252. For someone without any training whatsoever in medicine, you sure post a lot.

If the choice is between "possibly gaining weight" and definitely being untreated, I think reasonable people would choose the former rather than the latter.

[The Doctor.]

256. Aren't you a gem.

"Without any training whatsoever in medicine"

So, do you fish off the coast of Alaska, Florida, or just the Internets?





Yes, most reasonable people would choose the former... unless they already had obesity issues... or blood sugar issues... or.... (most 'reasonable' people would get the idea by now)

[ColbertWatcher]

262. Wrong. Your presumptuousness is overshadowed only by your "medical degree"

For someone who recommends "drinking water and exercise" to taking medicine, I find it peculiar that you can't see to recommending "drinking water and exercise" for someone who might be gaining weight.

LOL!

[The Doctor.]

268. Wow...

You ain't the sharpest bulb on the chandelier, eh?

I've learned much about some of the posters around here. Welcome to favs'.

[Arnold Judas Rimmer]

278. How about a medicine that doesn't make you gain weight?

5-HTP not only lacks the side effects of pharmaceutical drugs, but also has the positive effects of cutting carb cravings. So you eat less calories and lose weight.

And when you combine proper brain chemistry AND weight loss, that will give you even more energy to bring the fresh air, sunlight and exercize into it.

Win win win all around (except for the chemical pushing friends of the Bush Crime Family)

[The Doctor.]

68. Do you really not understand the statement?

Many, many types of conditions can result in depression. That makes 'depression' one of the side-effects or symptoms of the malady. 'Depression' isn't so much it's own condition or singular illness because it's more a combination of various symptoms that are characterized as 'depression'. Others have made the point that depression comes in many forms. This is true because there are many types of symptoms that can comprise 'depression'. Therefore, when the symptoms of depression noted are due to other causes, they nonetheless comprise 'depression'. Many of the symptoms that make up depression are addressed through diet, exercise, hydration, and a number of other approaches. Some people around here don't like that fact for some reason.

As for your 'proof', where to even begin?

Hormone issues are a big one;
http://www.everythingandropause.com/articles/andropause_depression.htm
http://www.epigee.org/menopause/depression.html
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0999/is_n7127_v316/ai_20303065


Depressive symptoms can arise from a number of things;
http://www.netdoctor.co.uk/diseases/depression/drugsanddepression_000487.htm
http://sleepdisorders.about.com/cs/depress/a/depression.htm

And here's a whole slew of things that can result in symptoms of depression;

http://www.wrongdiagnosis.com/sym/depressive_symptoms.htm


Yes, depression can most certainly be a symptom of other maladies.

Hope that helped.

[ColbertWatcher]

78. "Hope that helped." I'm not the one who needs help here.

Perhaps if you took a moment to re-read the OP, you'd feel a lot better.

[The Doctor.]

92. I read the OP. I never disagreed with it.

I'm just amazed at how unhinged a few of you have become.

I take it you're just trying to be an irritant by now as you haven't made a single valid point in several posts.

[ColbertWatcher]

116. "unhinged"?

Perhaps you don't realize that other people can see what you're posting?

Did someone else type comment #34 in your name as well?

[The Doctor.]

138. You've lied and made claims you can't back up. That's pretty unhinged.

Meanwhile, if my frustration that so many people don't know the definition of the word 'can' is showing, good.

It's really sad when so many otherwise intelligent people need me to 'dumb down' a post so they don't flip out.

[ColbertWatcher]

149. I have committed no crime. n/t

[Apollo11]

194. Thanks for posting these links

It looks like there is a strong correlation between depression and sleep apnea.

http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2003-11/sumc-sad110603.php

[Dora]

99. My depression was a symptom.

It was a symptom of an easily diagnosed and treated B-12 deficiency. I now have regular injections of b-12 to keep depression at bay.

B-12 deficiency is far more common than people realize, especially among the elderly. Symptoms of b-12 deficiency are often mislabeld dementia, depression, and even Alzheimers.

Just speaking from my experience and what I have learned.

[undergroundpanther]

167. Splenda caused me a depression bout

It made a rash around my neck too. I found out I was allergic to splenda.So the depression I already have became alot more severe, so severe my doc suggested ECT. He freaked me out(I never went back to him).I go to another place for my therapy now.

Anyways I got allergy tested,where they put like 500 needles in you..well some of those allergic reactions were emotional.One made me instantly suicidal,another made me so irritated and pissed off I felt like I had a wasp nest in my head.

I was so glad they had antidotes and Vitamin C powder.I would have NEVER believed allergens could cause such reactions until I experienced it myself.. But they DO!!

Allergies or not,I still have PSTD and the depression from the damage done,and I take meds to cope with it all.Diet and B12 can only go so far,for some it can fix it,for others the depression has it's origins elsewhere.I take b12 still,yet I still have PSTD.

[undergroundpanther]

170. Sleep Apnea robs you of sleep

Interrupt sleep long enough,you can get quite messed up.It can bring on psychosis..

Peter Tripp, who endured a 200-hour sleepless marathon to raise money for the March of Dimes. During the course of his ordeal his thoughts became increasingly distorted and there were marked periods of irrationality. By the end of four days he could not successfully execute simple tests requiring focused attention. In addition, he began to have hallucinations and distorted visual perceptions. At one point Tripp became quite upset when he thought that the spots on a table were insects. He thought that there were spiders crawling around the booth and even once complained that they had spun cobwebs on his shoes.
http://www.psychiatrictimes.com/display/article/10168/54471?pageNumber=2
Apnea & depression..
http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?sec=health&res=9406EEDE1630F933A1575AC0A9639C8B63

[varkam]

19. Thanks, 'Doctor'.

:eyes:

[The Doctor.]

30. What's your issue?

Are you suggesting that someone with depression should avoid proper diet, exercise, hypnosis, and introspection?

In my experience, those are a part of any treatment regimen for depression.


I'm just amazed at how anything that doesn't sound exactly like the sentiments of the OP induces such selective perception. Please, forego the cheap 'eyeroll' smiley and tell me exactly what it is about what I said that is wrong.

[varkam]

125. Your hubris, mostly.

Those things may well have worked for you, and if they did then I am glad. To extend that to all individuals who suffer from depression, however, is arrogance at its finest. In addition, it was an extension of the exact same thing that the OP was calling out.

That is my issue. Reading through the rest of this thread, I would feel safe in tacking ignorance on to your hubris - the two often go hand in hand.

Oh, and just for you: :eyes:

[The Doctor.]

135. There is no 'hubris'. You're seeing things that aren't there.

The ignorance, after I've provided reams of links to back up what I've said, is apparently yours, I'm afraid.

If you think I said that those techniques are a 'cure all', you're wrong, I clearly did not.
If you think they can't work for a vast majority of cases, at least to some degree, you're wrong.

There is a difference between 'hubris' and 'correctness'. If you think that the helpful suggestions I put forward, while unfortunately not thinking that a slew of witchhunters would take up pitchforks and torches because they can't parse English, were intended as an insult, then you know you can count yourself among the outrage junkies.

How dare I make any kind of helpful points in a thread where all anyone wants is commiseration. Lesson learned. Someone else can try and inform you lot because I deal with children enough at home.

[cliffordu]

25. Thanks for diagnosing the rest of the planet. I guess I'll throw my

meds away and 'PULL MYSELF UP BY MY BOOTSTRAPS!!!!!'

Your hubris is matched only by your ignorance.

[The Doctor.]

26. How ridiculous.

Figures... anyone that doesn't say exactly what you want them too must be a hack.

What I outlined is not "pulling yourself up by your bootstraps", it's part of treatment. And it works.

[cliffordu]

33. ROFL....

What does it take to speak for the entire population of clinically depressed people, sparky?.

Does your "theory" include chronic depression as a result of head injury? Concussion? Is this just treatment for mood disorders, or do you think this is effective if it's just a king-kong case of self-pity?

What about classic type one manic-depressives? Type II bipolar adult males??

The idea that you think you can pass of what works for you as a cure for anyone else is a little naive.

The fact that you cannot differentiate one type of deep depression from the other is all anyone needs to know.

[The Doctor.]

34. You're nuts. I never said that I speak "For the entire population of clinically depressed people."

That's your fantasy, not reality.

Part of any treatment regimen includes those approaches. Sometimes those are enough, sometimes they are not.

I didn't say otherwise.


I never disagreed with the OP either, but I guess because I offered up helpful techniques rather than just commiserate with the OP, I must be 'one of them'. That seems pretty typical of rants about people who "don't get it". All someone has to do is step out of line somehow, however barely, and all the anger in the OP gets directed at them.


Some people are in permanent adversarial mode. That's a sign of another problem.

[cliffordu]

35. I am only adverse to bullshit dressed as expertise.

[The Doctor.]

38. So now you're saying that proper diet, excercise, hydration, and the rest are "bullshit"?

I'm afraid you have quite a bit to learn.

The Mayo Clinic disagree with you;
http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/depression-and-exercise/MH00043

So does WebMD;
http://www.webmd.com/depression/guide/diet-recovery

And Others;
http://www.dietanddepression.com/
http://www.freedrinkingwater.com/water-education3/21-water%20and%20depression-stress-anxiety.htm
http://www.disabled-world.com/artman/publish/depression.shtml
http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/8945.php


Using some of these can, at the very least, eliminate possible causes of depression. There are many clinical varieties, and in most cases, the least that these will result in is alleviation of symptoms.

In medicine, the axiom, and the (Lasagna) oath, is a pledge to 'Do no Harm'. Most forms of depression can be aided (if not thoroughly treated) by bringing balance back to the body and mind. It's not an easy process when you don't have the will or energy... I know it isn't from personal experience, but when you can get the help to engage in these, it can be quite effective in many cases. Drugs for the treatment of depression have some very bad side-effects, some resulting in death.

ANY doctor with an ethical bone in their body will encourage a patient to pursue these types of remedies before medicating them, unless the case is severe or chronic enough to merit immediate treatment. That's why they ask so many questions.


Well, I sure learned my lesson about offering helpful input in a thread where all anyone wants to do is witchhunt.

[cliffordu]

46. Nope: Your claim that you can "solve" clinical depression with

water, diet and exercise is bullshit.

Although it might have worked in yours, it won't work in all cases.

You have solved nothing.

All you had to do is put a disclaimer in there:

"Your mileage may vary,"

"Although I cannot speak for everyone, this is what worked for me."

And you'd be golden.

What I don't know about clinical depression and/or manic depressive illness is not something you are

qualified to judge.

Some people on these boards have dealt with the demons, too.

[The Doctor.]

50. I never made such a claim. You're employing selective ignorance.

"Using some of these can, at the very least, eliminate possible causes of depression. There are many clinical varieties, and in most cases, the least that these will result in is alleviation of symptoms."

What about that says it "cures everyone"?


Please, deal in reality. When you're ready to, I'll discuss this with you, but not until then.

[cliffordu]

52. What does the "subject" line read on response number 9???

[The Doctor.]

58. Oh my God. I know I said I wasn't going to bother until you could deal in reality, but you need some

help here;

Main Entry: can
Pronunciation: \kən, ˈkan also ˈken; dialect ˈkin\
Function: verb
Inflected Form(s): past could \kəd, ˈku̇d\; present singular & plural can
Etymology: Middle English (1st & 3d singular present indicative), from Old English; akin to Old High German kan (1st & 3d singular present indicative) know, am able, Old English cnāwan to know — more at know
Date: before 12th century
transitive verb
1obsolete : know, understand
2archaic : to be able to do, make, or accomplish
intransitive verb
archaic : to have knowledge or skill
verbal auxiliary
1 a: know how to <she can read> b: be physically or mentally able to <he can lift 200 pounds> c—used to indicate possibility <do you think he can still be alive><those things can happen> ; sometimes used interchangeably with may d: be permitted by conscience or feeling to <can hardly blame her> e: be made possible or probable by circumstances to <he can hardly have meant that> f: be inherently able or designed to <everything that money can buy> g: be logically or axiologically able to <2 + 2 can also be written 3 + 1> h: be enabled by law, agreement, or custom to
2: have permission to —used interchangeably with may<you can go now if you like>
usage Can and may are most frequently interchangeable in senses denoting possibility; because the possibility of one's doing something may depend on another's acquiescence, they have also become interchangeable in the sense denoting permission. The use of can to ask or grant permission has been common since the 19th century and is well established, although some commentators feel may is more appropriate in formal contexts. May is relatively rare in negative constructions (mayn't is not common); cannot and can't are usual in such contexts.


Did I say 'Will'?

No.


Please... read, comprehend, deal in reality.... then we can have a discussion.

[ColbertWatcher]

61. Your sarcasm is making you seem defensive. n/t

[The Doctor.]

70. That's not sarcasm.

Anyone who can't tell the difference between 'can' and 'will' needs a dictionary.

[ColbertWatcher]

80. If you don't want to admit being even a little sarcastic...

...while "advising" others to be "introspective" you're not making a very good case for your faith in non-medical medicine.

[The Doctor.]

84. Are you being ignorant on purpose?

The medical benefits of exercise, and proper diet+hydration are exceptionally well-established. That makes it 'medical'... because it is ultimately 'medicinal'.

Do you know what 'medicine' is? Or do you believe that 'medicine' is always a pill or icky syrup?

I'm beginning to think you're just here to be a screwball.

Nah, by now I'm pretty sure of it.

[ColbertWatcher]

89. I have committed no crime. n/t

[cliffordu]

64. Be sure to do a little hair splitting...your meaning was clear from the rest of your

post.....that and the quotes around mental illness......

I still have no idea why you think you "can" 'solve' the illness.

Oh, yeah, and

'don't be hatin'

[The Doctor.]

74. You 'can' solve depression. Why are you so sure you can't?

This has degenerated far enough. It's obvious that by now you realize that you misunderstood what I was saying, but still want to paint what I said as somehow wrong... even though you can't.

So you're reaching, and have convinced yourself that when I said 'can' I must have said 'will'.

You're just fucking around now, and this is pointless.

I've provided you with plenty of links. Read them, learn a thing or two, and we'll see you elsewhere on DU.


This has been... perplexing.

[cliffordu]

76. And you have been.....dangerously uninformative.

[ColbertWatcher]

83. "...dangerously uninformative." Best. Comment. Of the thread. n/t

[The Doctor.]

87. Really? Explain how?

I'd love to know how all the factual information I've provided substantiation for is "dangerously uninformative".

You guys are really starting to look like clowns here.

[ColbertWatcher]

90. For someone who prescribes "introspection" you should be able to achieve that on your own. n/t

[The Doctor.]

93. IOW- you have no idea how to back up that ridiculous claim.

Just clowning around, eh?

[cliffordu]

127. aw, shucks.

Thanks!!

:hi:

[fascisthunter]

95. you cannot "solve" or "Cure" Clinical Depression not in all cases

some may be caused by environment, trauma, genetic or a mix of all. You assume all can be cured, but for those who are born with a chemical imbalance, there is no cure.

[The Doctor.]

102. I never said you could cure 'all' depression.

You should track the whole exchange before commenting.

Thanks.

[fascisthunter]

107. "You 'can' solve depression. Why are you so sure you can't?"

"Post #9 Yes, depression is a 'mental illness' that can be solved with 'mental effort'."


What does that sound like to you?

[The Doctor.]

112. Ohferchrist'ssake. I really thought I would be dealing with people for whom it was understood.

I used 'can' as my non-absolute rather than heaping caveats into my post 'just in case' people would think I meant that 'all depression is treatable by x'.

I said 'can' meaning that 'it is possible'. That is one of the more common uses of 'can'. I had to provide a dictionary definition to another poster, please tell me you don't need one too.

I'll remember this the next time I ask myself if I need to accomodate every possible absolute interpretation of my post. Apparently I can't take for granted that DUers will read as intended when they can find something ridiculous to nit-pick over.

Will I need to remember this when posting in the same threads as you are?

[fascisthunter]

114. whoah, whoah.... slow down bro

Others are all over you... so I see why you are agitated. If it was a misunderstanding by me, I apologize, but it was not apperent to me as to what you meant. I didn't mean to jump all over you, I just seriously thought you felt all depression was cureable...

"Will I need to remember this when posting in the same threads as you are?"

I expect better from you than being childish and vindictive... go ahead and nitpick my posts if it makes you feel better. Sorry...

[The Doctor.]

117. Well, I was going to apologize, until the 'childish and vindictive' comment.

I told you to read the exchange. You chose not to, otherwise it would have been crystal clear what I meant. Having failed that, it appeared clear to me that you were nitpicking over the same thing, and through the same narrow interpretation that the others were. Your choice.

When I asked if I'd have to consider your current lack of diligence or understanding you had a chance to just say what you said in your first sentence, and then I would know that would be unecessary.

So please, the next time I, or anyone else suggests that you should read the exchange before commenting on it, do it. That way you won't 'accidentally' come across as being 'nitpicky' and contentious... and I won't respond in kind.

I expect better from you than ignorance.

[fascisthunter]

124. You'd Have a Point If Your Own Post was More Clear

it wasn't... that's why others decided to correct you as well.

I can see why you would get agitated and assume I too was nitpicking, but it was honestly a misunderstanding because your post was not clear.

As for my "vindictive, childish" statement... that was in regard to your statemment, "Will I need to remember this when posting in the same threads as you are?"

You assumed I was personally attacking you... I wasn't, I was genuinely under the impression you thought depression could be cured. And yes I did read your conversation as did others and we all misunderstood where you were coming from. It wasn't a coincidence...

I really think you let other posters get the better of you... so I bid you farewell.

[The Doctor.]

131. You didn't read the exchange as I suggested.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=3776098&mesg_id=3777361


It was made clear. Had you read it, you would not have prompted that response.

All the other posters did was prove they were looking for a fight, so I got used to dealing with children quickly.

Good day.

[fascisthunter]

136. Oh my.... you were not clear and that explanation further

convinces me that you got caught trying to back away from your previous statement.

I actually respect lot's of your posts and agree with you on many issues but this interchance I'm afraid was a bit disappointing.

I tried being civilized and fair with you, but you weren't man enough to meet me half-way. Get over yourself and grow up....

Good night

[The Doctor.]

143. You had a chance

to 'be civilized and fair' as well, and you chose otherwise. Even after I made it clear that the 'insult' only came after you had a chance to read the exchange, and responded insultingly. That fault was yours one way or the other;

Either you failed to heed my advice and read the exchange, and therefore continued on the same vein, in which case, had you merely admitted that you didn't read it, I would not have mentioned whether I have to 'dumb down' with you in the future. But instead you chose to insult me over an insult you could easily have avoided.

Or you did read it and continued along the same insulting vein. In which case, you deserved it.

No matter how you look at it, I said read the exchange, and the only reason insults were exchanged was because you didn't.


I'll 'grow up' as soon as you do.

Good day.

[varkam]

126. If multiple people misunderstand you, 'Doctor'

then perhaps the fault is with the message.

[The Doctor.]

133. Yet there are plenty who did. Many of whom didn't see fit to try and pick a fight

over what they failed to understand.

The "Well if enough people think you're wrong, you must be" tact only works when those people know what they're talking about. Just because three people on a website think the word 'can' only has one meaning doesn't make me wrong. It makes three people look like they wanted to pick a fight when they didn't have to.

There is exactly 'zero' wrong with what I said except that I failed to dumb it down properly.

I'll keep that in mind next time.

[Pacifist Patriot]

224. I've seen that claim before, but I don't think it tends to hold up.

Those who understood the message and found no fault with it would have little reason to respond. I wouldn't have felt the need to say anything in this sub-thread if I hadn't seen the thrashing. Sorry but the word "can" simply does not equate with "will." I'm puzzled why so many made that leap.

[The Doctor.]

261. No need to be puzzled....

They needed a target, and making that 'leap' gave them one.

I wasn't careful enough to recognize that the OP was directing rage at a scapegoat. I became the ram when I forwent tossing caveats into my initial response. I should have known better than to overestimate large groups of angry people. I won't make the same mistake on DU if I can help it.

Thank you. Because of your post, and the fact that you have an "I donated" tag, I'll definitely donate this round.

DU owes you thanks. :D

[Apollo11]

197. If it works for some people - how can it be "bullshit"?

I sense hostility.

[ColbertWatcher]

48. "I'm afraid you have quite a bit to learn." I'm hoping your inner physician told you that...

...and you heed that advice.

Listen, prayer may work for your self-diagnosed, psychosomatic, attention-grabbing, martyrdom, but it won't help anyone with a real medical condition.

"..."Most forms of depression...unless the case is severe or chronic enough..."

I'm glad you realize the error of your mistake, ill-conceived internet diagnoses.

Welcome back off the ledge.

[The Doctor.]

53. ?

Weird.

Read the links, re-read my post, stop assigning claims I never made. I never mentioned "prayer" either, I'm talking about real approaches to medical conditions.

They work. Not for everyone all the time (obviously I can't take for granted that I'm dealing with people for whom that is understood, so I have to make a point of it), but they work.

I don't know what it is that so many people here have to mischaracterize what I said as "prayer" or a "cure all". I never made those claims. I'm guessing there must be a full moon coming or something.

[cliffordu]

55. Saaaayyyy - You aren't a Scientologist, are you??

Tom Cruise, IZZAT YOU???

[ColbertWatcher]

60. Hey! You don't know the history of psychiatry; I do!

LOL, who would take the advice of a mere actor involved with a UFO cult anyway?

LOL!

[cliffordu]

62. Nevermind, I finally got it!!

:hi:

[ColbertWatcher]

66. Yes. I was being glib. n/t

[cliffordu]

67. Rofl: Are we going to have to jump on Oprah's couch, now???

:rofl:

[ColbertWatcher]

82. Oprah's couch needed jumping.

And so does Matt Lauer.

He needs to be jumped as well.

[cliffordu]

128. Yep. Absolutely. Mr. Hairplug gives me the creeps.

[undergroundpanther]

173. I hate scientology..

But the history of psychiatry is horrible.
No ufo cult needed to see that.

[ColbertWatcher]

174. The history of psychiatry is really a history of mankind.

We humans have not really been that humane.

But, we've improved (for the most part) and so has the way we treat patients.

We can get better in both psychiatry and how we treat each other overall.

[undergroundpanther]

179. Some of us are humane

Others among us are not.It is the ones who are not humane that need to be stopped,for they will exploit and abuse people and systems.They cause a big chunk of suffering..

[Vanje]

206. That was my very first thought also. nt

[ColbertWatcher]

59. "there must be a full moon coming or something."

I cannot believe this is the first time you've heard people disagree with your prayer cure-all for psychiatric conditions.

Or that type of dismissive comment would work.

[The Doctor.]

71. Why do you insist on lying?

What point are you making here?

Again, I never said anything about 'prayer'. That's something more typical of right-wing hacks and liars than a 'Colbert watcher'. What's wrong with you?

[ColbertWatcher]

75. I have committed no crime. n/t

[sammythecat]

You're getting pretty well beat up here.

I think I understand what you're saying and I think your advice is right and true. All of those points are vital to any treatment or "remedy". I've experienced the benefits myself. The first and biggest hurdle to overcome however, for those who are at this point, is getting past the point described by Dick Cavett, via tannybogus's post #17. That, I think, requires some kind of supporting intervention and, most likely, medication as well.

I'm 57 and have struggled with this curse as far back as I can remember. I didn't know what it was when I was 8 but I know now. It flares up now and then, but even in the best of times there is always a hot ember remaining, just waiting for a little tinder. I don't think I'll ever be able to extinguish that ember. It's like an allergy I guess, in that the best thing I can do is avoid getting into situations that provoke the reaction, and doing what you suggested is probably the best way to just that.

Another unfortunate fact I think I've learned is that depression seems to be infinitely resourceful and able to "learn" from its defeats. Thinking back, I know there were times when I thought it was as bad as it could get without being fatal. Then, sometime later I find that, nope, that wasn't as bad as it gets. It can get even worse. When I was 25 I thought I had a pretty thorough understanding of depression, but I didn't. Isn't learning fun!?

I don't mean to suggest that I'm telling you anything you don't already know. I'm just trying to make some things as clear as I can for anyone else reading this.

[The Doctor.]

110. It's only 'getting beat up' if you're wrong. They aren't even on the same page.

That may be my fault for the sin of not being careful enough to heap caveats on my original response. I believed that no one would interpret what I said as any kind of an absolutism, but it turns out that people are really hypersensitive to being told that there's more than one way to deal with the issue. So much so, that any deviation from the sentiments of the OP are perceived as inimical... just what the witch-hunters want.

And 'Oooops', my good intentions walked me right into a pit of rabid weasles with bad manicures.


Never assume that someone knows everything, especially when it's from experience. I never thought of it that way, but yes, depression has a life and will of it's own. It's really scary, and it's very difficult to explain. You pretty much nailed it though... it's insidious and tough. It's like a fighter that robs you of your oxygen supply before you ever get in the ring with it. Sometimes drugs can get you past that Black Wall, but I always tried everything else before having to resort to the meds. Music has been the first key for a long time, and so long as I don't forget to put on music, I don't sink anymore. I'm pretty lucky that it's become relatively easy to keep myself up. Some years ago, I swore that I'd never go down again. Sometimes it works... when I feel it, I use anger to fight it, but in the last couple of years, I've gone down for a couple months at a time... but not as badly as it was once.

I've 'outwitted' it, so to speak. That only means that I've been lucky. I was, for a while, simply not producing the serotonin and dopamine. It was clinical, neurological depression. I was lucky that I knew enough about diet and neurophysiology to treat myself when I wasn't on meds.

Keep fighting, keep winning, and keep playing music.

[sammythecat]

I meant "getting beat up" in the sense

that you were outnumbered, not wrong. Should've included that "caveat". :dunce:

I know what you mean about the caveats. You could make a three word post here saying, "I like puppies", and there's a pretty good chance you'll get slammed up against the wall for being a typical male pig that doesn't understand or like cats.

For the record, another caveat, just in case: I have a much-loved dog and 5 very happy cats.

[The Doctor.]

144. Yeah, I think they were just looking for a scapegoat.

My original response was taken as the 'get up and fix it' POV because no one wanted to consider my choice of words. It was close enough to launch an attack... even after I pointed out that I said no such thing.

I have to remember to be more careful when I walk into a thread where people are already frothing over something not to look like the boogeyman.

Sheesh.

So what's your problem with Guinea-pigs?!?!

[sammythecat]

147. I knew it ! I KNEW it !

:rofl:

[tomp]

188. they are being stupid, obtuse,and childish.

your post are completely comprehensible and correct. might i suggest "ignore".

[The Doctor.]

234. No, these, for the most part, are otherwise intelligent and respectable posters.

I just made the mistake of walking into a mad weasel pit without watching where I stepped.

But thanks though, I'm glad a few here get what I've been trying to say.

[Pacifist Patriot]

204. In our day and age, absolutism seems to be the default mindset.

Here, there and everywhere. It is a pet peeve of mine.

I have clinical neurological depression that must be medicated (My lifestyle doesn't get any healthier under current guidelines) and I wasn't offended. We have so many environmental and life choices that undermine our health it just stands to reason that improving diet and exercise is going to be of benefit. And yes, there are plenty of cases where it can alleviate or cure depression and depressive tendencies.

I recently attempted to go off my medication to see if my body has reset itself chemically, but unfortunately it has not....Yet.

[The Doctor.]

243. From where you are, I can't even tell you how hard such a transition would be.

A 'chemical reset' is always possible, but it helps to know your basal state to do it. That's very difficult to find between your condition and the meds you take. You can't find it off the meds, because you'll just fall into a depressive state, and you can't find it on them because your chemistry is altered. So you'd have to get there 'the hard way'.

There are strategies for doing it. Just dropping the meds could be disasterous. If you just have some basic chemical imbalance, then diet and exercise can help quite a bit. There may be a strategy for upping exercise, listening to music, and picking the right foods while slowly coming off of or alternating the meds. Often, with a good look at your routine, you can also find aspects of it which 'get in the way' of positive momentum. I'll be honest; you may always have to live with the meds, but studies are pretty clear that a good regimen can work wonders.

Now, and this is important; I'm not a medical doctor, so no matter how good (or bad) anything I say sounds regarding your condition, you must NOT attempt anything without talking to a physician first. Just don't go on my say, even though it may be correct, your doctor will doubtless have a better understanding of your condition.

Oh, and thanks for understanding. In truth, I did make the mistake of not considering that I might be stepping into a roomful of mad chihuahuas with waffle-irons.

[SmokingJacket]

40. What you said.

In my experience, anti-depressant drugs are just a big hammer to the head. Sometimes they knock things around the right way, sometimes the wrong way. And when they do work, it's rarely for long.

Exercise, sleep, diet, and most importantly, stress avoidance, keep things just above water for me.

I don't judge people who take medication, though. I tried it myself, many times.

[The Doctor.]

79. Yep, it's 'hit' or miss with the drugs. The real problem is when a doc prescribes them

to someone who is already "self-medicating".

That can be deadly. I'm a believer in 'medication after exhaustion'. Once you've tried everything more lifestyle-oriented, then go to the meds. That way at least we've established some good habits before going to the meds, and we've found out whether or not the patient can even implement the changes, or if the depression is too severe to allow it.

[ColbertWatcher]

43. "...better treated with proper diet and activity" one of those activities is take your medicine. n/t

[The Doctor.]

81. Read #79. Otherwise, sure... that can be one of those 'activities'.

[ColbertWatcher]

85. You do realize that the psychiatry that existed when L. Ron Hubbard was institutionalized...

...has been improved upon?

Don't you?

[RainDog]

105. I think it's the bedside manner that trips you up

If you actually want to help a person who is in the depths of a major depressive episode (by episode, that can mean years) a post in which you basically say they aren't trying hard enough is extremely counterproductive.

I don't disagree with the activities you mention. I think they are all great. The problem, of course, is when you are so severely depressed those things seem overwhelming and reinforce the cycle of depression b/c someone "fails" at this simple treatment.

therefore, you left out one MAJOR and key ingredient in your prescription (which is a one-cure-fits-all description... not very professional, but anyway..) A person in such a situation needs help to accomplish these things. Exercise that was part of life and nothing a month ago may seem like an exhausting process just to get started.

I think the responses you've gotten down thread are in reaction to your attitude - the sort of hostility your post seems to exude would of course make someone defensive if they're ever not been able to simply "get up and exercise." If you've ever known anyone with depression that was this disabling, then you wouldn't be so argumentative with others here and would instead try to understand their povs.

Btw, are you a real doctor or do you just play one on DU? A medical doctor, not PhD, of course. I wonder. And I wonder if you are a psychiatrist. Is that your medical speciality?

[The Doctor.]

140. That's the problem... I never said that.

But I suppose enough people are saying that I did that it must be true. :eyes:

My first response here contained exactly 'zero' hostility. I was, after that, responding to hostile attacks by those that refused to understand what I was saying even after I explained it.

I have many times, even in #9, pointed out this exact sentiment;
"I don't disagree with the activities you mention. I think they are all great. The problem, of course, is when you are so severely depressed those things seem overwhelming"

Given the number of times I've had to repeat myself here, it's pretty obvious that a number of people were looking for someone to lash out at... otherwise they'd be reading and comprehending what I've said so far and not mischaracterizing or outright lying about what I've said.

It's kind of a combination of interesting and sad. I got to be the boogey man without actually saying anything offensive to the OP. So I guess there are a number or people just looking for a fight over this.


Oh, and you're warm.

[RainDog]

160. well...

in your first post, you said:

"While depression is indeed an illness, it's one that is better treated with proper diet and activity."

--and this is why you got the hostile replies. even tho you may not have intended for this to sound like you are minimizing depression, or "blaming" the depressed person... that's one way that it can and will be seen -- esp. in ppl who already have to deal with the cognitive issues of depression (and other illnesses that deal with emotions) - the "all or nothing, catastrophizing, learned helplessness, overthinking... all patterns of thinking that, for a severely depressed person, will not be altered by "introspection," without some sort of intervention to help ppl recognize that these ways of understanding a situation or emotion is skewed by the depression... in other words, cognitive psychological therapy.

Have you ever read "Feeling Good," by David Burns? it's an extremely useful book for someone in the middle of a depression.

and as far as the tone of replies to you - as you must know, depression can and often does manifest itself as irritability - having a difficult time tolerating anything that triggers any sort of stress response. There are ppl on this site who claim that anyone who uses any pharmaceutical medication are somehow committing an atrocity.

In any case that first sentence, which I included here, is why others questioned your motives. "better treated" via diet and exercise sounds like someone who has never had to treat someone in a MDE because of the inability to seek treatment for so many depressed people. since depressed ppl tend to isolate themselves, it becomes even harder to have a relationship in which a depressed person would be able to ask for help.

And depression, tho a physiological condition, is often an interaction b/t the person with a tendency toward depression and the level of stress or trauma in his/her life. Even so, medication may be needed to deal with this. We also live in a society that does not value people. We consistently put money above people - we show every day what the "spirit" of this nation has become.. if it was ever anything else. Medication fits with managed healthcare. For profit companies now get to decide who needs medical care and how much. It's repulsive, really, esp. in light of the "religious" in this nation who claim to care so much about the unborn, preborn, and/or jackoff. Too bad they only care about unborn humans.

[The Doctor.]

219. Yes, that is the best way to treat it. I never said it always works or it's the only treatment.

I should have heaped the caveats on in anticipation of hostilities.

Nonetheless, there was no hubris, conceit, or any other mal-intent behind it. That, I'm afraid, is the failing of the respondents.

[RainDog]

264. okay. the "dr. eldritch" is the comix vampire then?

I didn't want to assume.

as I said before, ppl can get touchy on this subject b/c there is a history here of some ppl saying all medication is horrible and will lead to suicide, even when you note that it has prevented them in others.

there is still a lot of stigma attached to brain illnesses.

I know about many of the issues with bpd. And depression, clinical depression, as the links above note, has a biological expression in the brain that can be observed in case studies, even tho it does not, at present, seem to have a genomic marker.

but as you probably know, epigenetics is what a lot of researchers are looking at now because this level can deal with some of the environment v. heredity issues.

anyway, I think I've said enough on this thread. take care.

[The Doctor.]

267. You most certainly have.

But I'm sure you'll assume what you will.

[RainDog]

276. fwiw. your reply is a prime example of why people assume you're an asshole

and, frankly, you've demonstrated you're not worth anyone's time. off to ignoreland for you.

[The Doctor.]

277. Which obviously gives you an excuse

to be one yourself.

Well done.

Keep looking for excuses to be an asshole, and not only will you find them, but you'll get a chance to call people 'assholes' in the process.

Hey... you went first, not me.

That tells me a lot about you.

If you track back to my original response, you'll find that I've only ever responded in kind to assailants.

That makes you the last asshole in the equation, unless someone else jumps in. And no... I'm not an asshole for merely pointing out that you're an asshole.

You took it here, not me.

G'night.

[Lorien]

108. Just like cancer, eh?

I'm sorry, but this is a horribly ignorant post. Brain scans done of severely depressed people show all sorts of imbalances; suppressed activity in some areas and hyperactivity in others. It's the illness of an ORGAN, like kidney or liver disease. Can anyone think or exercise their way out of kidney disease?

I've suffered with clinical depression my entire life. I eat better than most people (mostly veg, no processed foods or artificial ingredients, no sugar, low carb), I exercise daily, I set goals,I've never used drugs,I've accomplished a fair amount in my life, but I still have extreme bouts of depression. It's genetic, just as it was for the Hemingways, and just as kidney disease is for my best friend.

[The Doctor.]

137. Thank you, I know that.

I really fucked up when I said 'can'. That means; "It is possible". That's how I meant it. It's definitely part of any treatment.

Depression is really just a classification for a set of symptoms, it's not so easily called an 'illness', because it just doesn't fit into one category. Most of those approaches can directly address many of the symptoms of depression, which, in some cases, is the solution. In some cases, the symptoms are based on physiological issues that can't be dealt with that way... but even then, one can benefit from such activities if they can get to that point.

Apparently 'can' only means 'cure all' around here for some reason. Sorry, but it's driving me nuts that so many otherwise intelligent people chose to dismiss an entire chunk of the word's definition just to hurl flaming arrows at me.

{OE} two things; One- I'm plenty familiar with scans of depressed patients, thanks. Two- actually while the 'cure' rate from only exercise/hypnosis/diet for cancer is not much at all, those things make a big difference when coupled with other treatments. There is a much higher rate of success with 'depression'.

[RainDog]

207. where did you get your information about what depression is?

can you cite a peer-reviewed article that iterates your claim that depression isn't easily called an illness b/c it is a set of symptoms? Is a cold an illness? How is it not simply a set of symptoms - which may vary from person to person? I am really curious to understand what an illness is, not simply that depression isn't easily called one, in your words.

are you familiar with bi-polar disorder? what makes it diff. than depression? It's called a "disorder" but it is definitely an illness with various manifestations.

why do you put quotes around the word "depression?"

have you ever treated anyone for depression? what are your bona fides?

Since you claim medical experience, I think it's extremely important that those of us here know what your medical qualifications are.

[The Doctor.]

250. I do not, have not, nor will I 'claim medical experience'.

I simply do not discuss my profession on the internet as it is not necessary. If ever I make any kind of suggestion, I preface it with 'ask your doctor'.

I don't give 'medical advice' online above and beyond anything any non-medical professional would, and even then, because of my user name, I include the caveat that I'm not a medical doctor.

So far this thread, I have claimed no 'medical experience', nor will I on DU unless it is a personal medical event... such as my personal experience with depression and those who have suffered with it.

Any other knowledge or expertise I disseminate will be discoverable by most people without a medical background, and usually via the internet.

Now, as for your questions;

I sometimes put 'depression' in quotes because, as I said, it is not a singular illness or disease like smallpox or leukemia. 'Depression' is, in fact, a set of symptoms caused by a number of factors whose range is anything from the common cold, to a chemical imbalance, to traumatic events, to the persistent effects of head trauma, to a tumor.... you get the idea.

A cold, on the other hand, is always caused by a virus. Even though cold symptoms can arise from allergies or other types of infections, it still is not considered a 'cold' unless it meets the specific conditions that, frankly, only the cold virus can cause.

A peer-reviewed paper is not necessary to iterate what is essentially understood. But, here's a link anyhow;

http://www.depression.com/causes_of_depression.html

There's some good, basic information there.

Bi-polar disorder has some similarities to depression, but it is almost entirely caused by neurochemical imbalance due to (usually) genetic factors. Many of the symptoms of depression manifest themselves in BPD because the same monoamines that regulate 'mood' are found to be lacking in 'neurochemical depression'. BPD has various triggers that go from dietary to emotional... not entirely unlike some forms of depression, but with BPD, the chemical imbalance can manifest in a very short period of time, and either reverse itself or dissipate just as quickly. Basically, the causes have to do with higher densities of monoamine producing cells in the brain. When higher outputs of say, dopamine or serotonin are produced, one experiences a 'high' or just general good feelings, unfortunately, because the brain is a balance mechanism, the reuptake of these can happen rapidly as well.

You can certainly google this stuff for more specific information if you like.


Hope that helps answer your questions. Feel free to ask if you have any more.

[AZBlue]

129. Yes, these things are important - but some with Depression are at a point where

they absolutely can not do those things. I think drugs are relied on WAY too much, but sometimes you need them to change the chemistry of the brain so other healing and helpful steps are made possible.

It's great that you've been able to get yourself moving on these areas!! That takes a lot!

[The Doctor.]

141. Yes, I know... in fact I never said otherwise.

Very true though, sometimes the drugs are a good kick start. I think somewhere under all the pitchforks and torches I said something about how 'when all else fails' meds may be the way to get on track.

Thanks though! It's been a number of years since my last bad episode, and I've found the triggers slowly dissappearing. It's always there though... and hard to explain to those who haven't been there.

[AZBlue]

150. Oh, it's impossible to explain.

Because they are looking at it logically and logic doesn't apply.
Hang in there!

[The Doctor.]

155. How do you mean?

It's certainly an illogical condition, but with rational roots.

But I do agree that it's virtually impossible to describe wanting so desperately to fall asleep and not wake up. Or maybe that's the best way.

[AZBlue]

161. I meant for people who don't understand anything about it or its cause

it does seem illogical. To them, "snap out of it!" makes sense. They can not imagine physically being unable to get out of bed unless there's a physical problem - they don't understand Depression or the mind-body connection.

And unfortunately, that describes the majority of people.

[The Doctor.]

232. Oh yes.

It does seem like it should be simple.... even now, after having been through it, not being in that state now, I look back and it's hard to remember why it was so difficult... I only remember that it was.

The reverse is true. When in that state, it's hard to remember how it was ever easy before.

I've had clients with exactly that problem. It was like picking a lock with a hundred numbers in the combination. The hardest part is getting them to want something again instead of merely not wanting to be where they are. The 'not wanting' to be in a black hole only makes it worse. That's one of the things that gets you; looking at where you are just compounds everything until you want to curl up, fall asleep, and never wake up. I can't tell you how many times I wished for that. Once someone starts to think of what they want, you still can't say 'up and at em', they have to go to the next step without trying to change their disposition... or it'll backfire. Tiny little steps. What's interesting is that in learning to help people with it, I've found it easier to manage myself.

It's just amazing how depression affects the physiology. Your breathing patterns change and shorten, your vo2 drops, as a result, your adenosinetriphosphate production stagnates which leaves you physically weakened, and it's like a downward spiral chain-reaction with your dopamine and serotinin levels going down because you're doing nothing to boost either adrenaline and subsequent endorphine output.... leaving you without the resources to fight back.

Any one of a number of decreases/imbalances can start the cycle. Once started, it's certainly harder to break than "hey, snap out of it".

It's like trying to tie your shoes without hands, or take a test without sight... it just feels impossible, and that feeling just makes it worse. That's not even getting into the various other causes and variables.

But, I hope that I can continue to help other people work their way out, and stay up in the meanwhile.

[freeplessinseattle]

146. doesn't sound like you've "solved" it

or else it wouldn't keep returning. or maybe you just need to "try" harder

[The Doctor.]

263. ?

What, precisely, do you mean?

I've never slipped back to the 'bad place', and it has a lot to do with my regimen. I think maybe you need to read through the exchanges a few times and then respond. The last time I made that suggestion, FH failed to read as I suggested and proceded to say foolish things.

Don't make the same mistake please. I like to like DUers and not be dissappointed by them.

[Marr]

165. I have to agree with you.

It may not be true for everyone, but it is for some at least. I was clinically depressed myself for almost a year-- worst year of my life. Suicide attempts and everything. When I decided to take up a regular exercise routine and make a weekly commitment to doing volunteer work, I ceased being depressed. It was a real slog for a long time, but it gradually seemed to correct my problem.

It seems almost as if the brain reinforces it's present patterns, whatever they happen to be. Changing it is difficult and takes consistent effort-- like swimming upstream. But it can work, at least for some.

[undergroundpanther]

171. Sometimes it can,sometimes it can't

I have PSTD my brain is fried. I have certain things that set off triggers,and I get a reaction depression from it sometimes.
No matter how well I watch every fucking thing I eat ,and pop vitamins and whatnot,I will still have to deal with depression.Meditation does not do much, Nor new age light worker crap,it's useless.homeopathy? I almost killed myself because of it.Hypnosis? I can't relax enough with a therapist to do it I have trust issues with power imbalances.Besides after seeing fucking idiot Dr.Lowenstien,I really don't want some shrink manipulating me into lying about my own past.He really pissed me off with that shit.I walked out on him..
Anyway sometimes diet,allergies etc. play a ROLE in some cases of depression,I agree,it could.

But will and 'lifestyle' changes is not a cure-all.And some cannot afford the lifestyle changes required to change things.Vitamins and regimens are not cheap.SSI just don't pay enough for me to do all the lifestyle changes.

The quality of a person's relationships,their past and the culture we live in effects people's moods too.

And if the brain is stressed past a certain point neurons get fried,so you have to cope with psychiatric injury too.
Mental illness is not just an individual issue,,trauma issue,a lifestyle issue or relationship issue,a biological issue or culture problem, it is a COMPLEX issue with many facets and causes as there are people suffering through it.

[The Doctor.]

265. Absolutely.

What you've been through has quite literally wired you in some of the worst possible ways.

I only came to understand that after I said something that another poster thought I had said with the knowledge of your personal issues. I did not have any such knowledge at the time, but that poster persisted anyway. I would never seek to hurt anyone, much less anyone who has pulled through such things as you have.

I must say, you have some staunch guardians about here... and that's not a bad thing.


I'm very sorry that you had to deal with one of the assholes in the field. I've met many of them and seen the damage they can do while charging the people they mess up by the hour.

"Lowenstein", or "Lowenstien"?

One of those is actually familiar to me... I won't get into the rest.

Thanks to Dr. Loftus, whom I respect greatly for her work, every shrink thinks they can solve people's problems by erasing or creating memories. It's scary, but these people think they can use her work to 'recreate' a person's past.

Those people are, pardon my English, complete fucking idiots. Make no mistake... they really think it works that way.
I'd know for a fact who this guy was if he mentioned more than five times a session that he was 'just trying to help' you. Weak, weak, weak. I'm sorry, these people just make me so mad.

Meanwhile, it's a very difficult thing to find someone to talk to who can help manuever through the wiring and find even the smallest balms that still exist within you. It's not so much a matter of 'fried neurons', it's really that all the associations that have been drawn, even through some of the most rudimentary functions, have become linked to just plain awful things. When the mind is 'wired' through so many negative things, sanctuary is barely imaginable. Even mindless exercise, or even the best music can slowly become tied into the pain... everything just goes sour. I'm thankful that I can barely conceive of the horrible crushing... and crushed that anyone could be in that place. I've known many kinds of agony, and I'm having a hard time saying this, but I know I'm lucky that I haven't known some things.

Sanctuary isn't easy to find for those who know constant pain of one kind or another. I've been lucky to have found it... if only for a time. But I promise it's there. If someone can find a place, virtual or otherwise, just to talk, then there is hope to find sanctuary, even if it is not necessarily that place in and of itself. It means there's something and there's motive to go somewhere... and sanctuary is somewhere, it always is.

I know I'm not much help. Sometimes I just talk to get things out of myself, or tell myself I'm not done. Funny, while writing this, about a paragraph ago, I spilled my guts to a client on the phone... because she asked me. The darkness is... just plain always there, always terrifying... but sometimes I frighten myself. Thank God I'm smarter than to say such things here. I can't say what I want to... I can't, I just can't, it's too fucking scary, and I've known fucking scary shit... and wonderful, beautiful stuff.

Wow, if you saw how many things I just erased, typed, and erased again. I guess one phone call is all it takes.... but well... There's one thing I'd bet my life on, in front of everyone on this thread... you're one hell of a talented artist... in some form or another.

Those are the sorts that hurt the most.

Sucks, doesn't it?

Sorry. I hate breaking character. Maybe I'll tell you what got me sometime.

[zanne]

199. That's crap.

All the physical activity and healthy diet in the world doesn't "cure" depression. And antidepressants DO help alot of people. Sorry they didn't work for you, but please lecture us based on just your experience. After all, your depression has been "on" and "off", hasn't it?

[The Doctor.]

266. Learn to read.

I'm sick of this shit and I'm sick of the stupid.

Peace.

[HughMoran]

200. In the long term, depression can be "prevented" by knowing the warning signs

...and changing your behavior before you fall off the edge.

Once one falls off the edge, then it is imperative (IMO) to get back to a more "normal" thinking pattern as soon as possible. If this can be done through exercise, diet etc, then that is the preferred solution. I've had traumatic upheavals (divorce, for instance), that knocked me on my ass and I found that Prozac was a godsend in that situation. I could not afford to lose my job and spiral into oblivion due to depression. It's all a matter of degree - your anti-drug company stance is admirable - I am also very much anti-drug company - though my issue is more with the way they ass-rape their customers through the use of patents. I am 100% in disagreement that drugs, when prescribed and monitored correctly, can't save the lives of many who are so depressed that they can't eat properly or exercise - I know, I've been bed-ridden in despair and the SSRI's saved me from that hell (may very well have saved my life). Please take a more open-minded stance on this issue - it's not an "all-or-nothing" proposal as you seem to be stating.

[zanne]

208. I have never had depression triggered by any situation in my life.

Depression just happens to me, whether I'm in a good place, a bad place or an in-between place. I try to hard to adjust to life and everything it brings. I'm psysically limited, but I try to use the parts of me that still work well and make the most of those. No biggie. But real, down and dirty, deep depression creeps up on me when I'm not looking. It can begin in the morning and progress to full-blown depression in one day. It truly is a chemical problem and the only thing that has ever helped me is antidepressant medication. Talk therapy is fine for helping me to cope with the depression, but it does nothing to resolve it.

[GreenPartyVoter]

223. Diet and exercise help, but do not completely erase my own depression. I need

extra help with rearranging the chemistry of the brain.

I got PLENTY of exercise during my teens. Some of my switches to a depressive episode happened during the middle of cheerleading season when I was working out hard in the mornings, and practicing hard in the afternoons, cheering at games, or performing at competitions.

Exercise has never boxed in my out-of-whack bipolar chemistry the way my pills do. (Sadly for me, it doesn't always become easier to stick with it as I go along. I can exercise faithfully for weeks and then the switch gets thrown again and I can't get myself out of my bed or recliner.)

But I am glad you have found a different way to treat your illness without having to run your life by a schedule of taking pills that only make the drug companies richer. (You are so right about their push for getting people to take meds for everything just so they can make money hand over fist.) Stay healthy! :)

[zorahopkins]

11. An "Enlightened:" Society?

"I keep hearing how we, as an enlightened society, have come so far in understanding what depression is."

We. Enlightened Society?

That's exactly the problem.

We are NOT an "enlightened society.

8 years of the Bush/Cheney thug regime has severely diminished any enlightenment that once existed.

We are a society that does not think any more.

We are a society that waits for pictures of the twins of Angelina and Brad.

We are a society obsessed with Lindsey and Britney.

Just give us our bread and circus.

We are not enlightened. Thinking is just too much effort.

[MonteLukast]

14. Exactly right.

And you're also right that this did not start with Bush and Cheney. We were being primed for it before then, with knee-jerk irrational policies like "zero tolerance" in schools, and corporations even during the good times getting rid of any ideas (and even people) that did not bring immediate, huge profits.

We've been actively encouraged to place our immediate gut reactions over our thoughts for many years. We've been told, repeatedly, that the quick emotional reaction is less likely to lead us astray than the thought-out one. And we've internalized it. And there have been a lot of unfortunate people on the receiving end of our collective "gut feelings".

The Iraqi people the most glaring and sickening example.

[LeftyFingerPop]

16. You are correct...I got an email today.

The one that says that all of the cell phone numbers are being released to telemarketers tomorrow, and we need to call a number and opt out or else we will be charged for each phone call.

This email was passed on through a chain of about 50 people.

I did a little research at Snopes and a few other sources to verify...the email is not true.

We just accept whatever the hell is displayed in front of us. "We" referring to the majority in our nation.

[undergroundpanther]

172. Thinking without feeling is one half of it

The Psychopathy problem and how to stop them from ruining kids and other people's lives is the other side of being 'enlightened'.Some of us are not able to cope with a psychopathic culture,or psychopath people without being damaged.
We have to find something to stop the psychopaths,authoritarians and narcissists that prey on people.

Than we need to learn to feel again.

[Jack Rabbit]

15. My name is Jack Rabbit. I am depressed.

I finally started drawing disability this month. Now maybe I can start feeling better? If only it were that simple.

It isn't a bad attitude like some people think. It is an illness. That's why after spending many years (read "most of my life") trying, I could never just "snap out of it."

There is a better understanding of this now than before, but we have a long ways to go before that understand is good.

[zanne]

217. Yes; I have a feeling we're just taking baby steps toward understanding it. nt

[tannybogus]

17. Dick Cavett explained depression this way:

It was that when you’re downed by this affliction, if there were a
curative magic wand on the table eight feet away,
it would be too much trouble to go over and pick it up.

http://cavett.blogs.nytimes.com/2008/06/27/smiling-through/

One of the best descriptions I've heard.

[varkam]

21. I think that's an excellent description of an MDE.

:hi:

[LeftyFingerPop]

22. Great description. Thank you for posting this. n/t

[Prophet 451]

23. I have one I've used

Depression is the feeling that the natural end of your life will be suicide and anything you do is simply delaying the inevitible.

[sammythecat]

36. Thanks for the reminder

I'd forgotten that, and you're right, that is a great description. To those fortunate enough to have never experienced severe depression, I imagine that sounds infuriatingly absurd, but that is exactly what's going on. It's physically and mentally immobilizing.

What's really frightening, and even harder to understand is that, if a person in such a state did manage to get up and go to the table, and a gun was lying next to the magic wand, it's not at all certain which item they would pick up. That's the terrible and bizarre reality of severe depression.

[AZBlue]

130. Wow! That's excellent!

I'd never heard it - thanks for posting!!
:hi:

[ejpoeta]

24. I like to call it the darkness.

It shadows everything in your life and alters how you see yourself. I suffer from depression. I tried to get help once at the behest of my sister, and was told that I just was not trying hard enough. If you act happy, you'll be happy. So it was all my fault that I could not overcome my deep sadness and thoughts of suicide. It was like there was the logical part of my brain that knew that I wasn't worthless and that I wasn't in the way, but then the darkness would try to cloud everything. I would get paranoid and think people were talking about me. When I finally ended up in the hospital, my sisters looking at me from the other side of the table... I thought they were all ganging up on me. Am I as bad as I was back then? When I struggled with the idea of killing myself and wrote awful things in my notebook that if I look at it now frightens the hell out of me. But at least I know how to see the signs.... and the doctor has to take me seriously, too.

It bothers me when people don't understand it. Though I am glad they don't have to go through it. It starts out small with little doubts. But it doesn't take long before it clouds everything. And I take great care in keeping track of it. Because I have no desire to go back to that Hell I lived in.

[Arnold Judas Rimmer]

69. Sucks ass when your own family thinks you can just "snap out of it", huh?

Been there, done that. Burned the t-shirt. :hug:

And the description of it "clouding" everything is accurate. I don't care much for the big pharma companies or their ads, but the Zoloft people got it right, when they had their sad little blob character followed around by a rain cloud everywhere.

[cliffordu]

73. I had to stop talking to my family over that shit.

They'd rather have me dead than admit I have a problem, in fact....

[ejpoeta]

86. my family was all to aware.

my sister is bipolar. she's the one who urged me to see the doctor about it. they sent me to a psycho shrink, as i liked to call him. went to see him once or twice. then gave up. i believe that some of my family thought i was just trying for attention or something. I wrote some very dark poems during that time. I credit my family with helping me come back from that precipice.

[yellowdogintexas]

121. Muddy pit, too wide to straddle comfortably, with very heavy muddy shoes

weighing you down.

[AnarchoFreeThinker]

28. kiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiicked and reccccccccccccccccccccc'd

[soleft]

37. I suffered from major depression for several years

I had to take 3 months off work because I could did not have the concentration to comprehend reading a single paragraph. I would get to work, close the door, lie down on my office couch, get up at five and go home.

I consider myself very fortunate to have fully recovered and been off meds for 7 years now. I was very very fortunate to have access to excellent mental health care. I was able to have both therapy and medication, and terrific support from family and friends, even though most of them really didn't "get" what was happening to me.

I also had a terrific boss who allowed me to return to work in a different job function which was less stressful and facilitated my recovery. I was gratified that from time to time someone would come up to me at work who had a family member suffering from depression and they felt they could talk to me about it, and hopefully it helped.

Also, my mother had a bad accident around five years ago, and became depressed in the aftermath. I was able to get her get the help she needed because I knew exactly what was happening to her.

Again, for anyone who is suffering out there, recovery is possible. I didn't believe it was possible at the time that I could climb out of that hole but I did. And I didn't just get over it, it was a long battle and I worked really hard to get better. But I did have to recognize that I had an illness before I could make that happen.

[The Doctor.]

101. Well done.

Most people don't get how hard it is to even carry on when all you want to do is go to sleep and never wake up again. It's hard to 'reattach' to the world and even want anything ever again.

Did you have any side-effects from the meds? What kind of therapy were you in?

[soleft]

106. Meds and therapy

I was originally on Pamelor, which, I don't know if they even prescribe any more. It made me lethargic so I took it with ridilin.

After a few years, it wasn't all that effective, I switched to Paxil. I didn't really have side effects, altho I often wondered about weight gain. I gained a lot of weight in the first few years of the onset, I've only been able to take it off over the last three years through consistent exercise and better eating habit. Paxil is a tough one to get off tho - withdrawal is freaky, and I weaned off very very slowly.

Therapy was standard 45 minute talk therapy with a CSW. I also did group therapy for around 8 years which was helpful. I still go just for kind of maintenance, to keep an eye on things and make sure that I'm not holding stuff in - I find that getting emotions freed up and expressed is a key to staying balanced and healthy.

[yellowdogintexas]

122. The many meds act on different receptors in the brain, and the receptors can reach

a point where they no longer work with the drug. Hence the need to try a different med for a while to balance things out. My doc is very particular about this part of the med therapy and very very meticulous about the weaning on and off of drugs.

[AuntPatsy]

57. An issue that I believe is largely ignored and so I'll give you a kick....

It's almost like it's become taboo to discuss what will seriously effect every single citizen at one time or another in their future and or past...for a country who professes to seriously care about life they tend to ignore it more often then not if it doesn't fit in well with so called polite society...

[MountainLaurel]

63. Thank you

:hug:

[Arnold Judas Rimmer]

72. After a thread last night, and now this one, I'm convinced we have pharma lobbyists on this board.

Now what's up with that? :wtf:

[ColbertWatcher]

91. And cultists. Now, what's up with THAT!? n/t

[Arnold Judas Rimmer]

96. Yeah, but let's leave them out of this thread

You were talking about the toothless pussycat cult (funded by pharmaceutical companies), right?

Natural Remedies My Ass!

[ColbertWatcher]

104. They're already here! (Hi Tom! Hi Kirsty!)

The cultists lurk, and may post.

But, they definitely lurk.

[kerry-is-my-prez]

113. My boyfriend's dad committed suicide and there's also some very deep wounds for family/friends.

It's not only a problem for the depressed person but for people close to them.

[Marnieworld]

118. And it is often a FATAL ILLNESS

Good post!

:hug:

[tannybogus]

123. I have fought depression since 1975.

If you told me then that I would be alive in 2008, I would have laughed. Hell, I would have laughed about making it to 1976.

I have learned that their is no one size fits all remedy. I think everyone is unique, and may need something entirely different than the next person. If I find out that standing on one leg for an hour while eating boiled eggs and taking 100mg of Zyprexa will make me feel better, I will do it for the rest of my bloody life.

I would rather be missing a leg than be depressed. At least people have something tangible to wrap their minds around. If you are depressed, they can't see anything. Too many people think you are shirking or playing. I wish people would start to turn bright orange when they got depressed. There would be a lot of orangey looking people around.

I have been hospitalized twice. I realized when I was in there that for the most part they weren't locking us in. They were locking the world out. They tried to keep the rest of the world away until we could begin to stop spinning in the small one they had made. After we stopped spinning in there, we could try the larger world again.

I remember what the psychiatrist on M*A*S*H said to Hawkeye. "Anger turned inward is depression. Anger turned outward is rage. Anger turned sideways is humor." That's my motto: Turn it sideways. Just turn it sideways.

:rofl: :cry: :rofl: :cry:

[MadrasT]

132. Wholehearted

:kick: and "R" :woohoo:

[easttexaslefty]

134. Amen, brother

Depression is horribly misunderstood

[bonito]

139. .

:hug: Hakuna Matata

[blues90]

142. The only advancement seems to be the big pharma and pills

I have been dealing with it since 1985 , it burns into new symptoms and eats you alive. You feel like a burdon and a downer and 10 visits per year allowed by insurance renders you some sort of experimental script.

People can't see it and judge you based on ignorance. Yeah get over it really helps , it is just the ticket to a ride to suicide.

[porphyrian]

148. I'll kick that. -n/t

[Odin2005]

151. IMO too many people wrongly think mental Illnesses are a moral fault.

It's based on the same BS thinking the Pukes use to claim that the poor are lazy.

[BrklynLiberal]

152. There are TV ads that I have seen that say the same thing. It REALLY physically hurts...

Thanks for this post.

[Tindalos]

154. Thank you for posting this.

There are so many misconceptions about this illness.

I don't know if you can change the world with one post, philboy but, if you can change just one person's mind, then you have done a great thing.

[DailyGrind51]

156. I've had bouts with depression most of my entire adult life.

It has gone from full-on clinical depression to dysthymia depression. It seems like it afflicted every male member of my family to some degree. I've had cancer also, and sometimes I think the depression was worse!

[tblue37]

159. I read an article by Dick Cavett, who suffered chronic depression,

in which he said that he felt so helpless and hopeless that if someone had said, "Over there on that table is the cure for your depression. All you have to do is get up, walk over there, and pick it up," he would not have been able to get up and take advantage of the cure.

I don't suffer from depression at all, but since he was 17 (he is now 31), my best friend has dealt with severe chronic depression that doesn't respond to medication. When I told him what Cavett said, he responded, "Yes! Exactly! That's it!"

[GreenPartyVoter]

225. Oh, do I ever hear that!

[eridani]

162. Mindblowing that so many don't actually get the fact that the brain is a physical organ

It can have chemical imbalances just as easily as your pancreas. It makes as much sense to say "Cheer up and get over yourself, dammit!" to someone with serious depression as it does to tell a diabatic "Just make more insulin, dammit!"

[Qutzupalotl]

164. One thing that helped me

many years ago was reading a book called "Feeling Good" (if I'm remembering that correctly).

The basic idea is that depression is caused by cognitive distortions. To correct this, you examine your thoughts for superlative or extreme statements such as, "I ALWAYS fail" or "I NEVER get anything that I want". These are mental exaggerations, or as the author puts it, cognitive distortions. When you catch yourself having one of those thoughts, you stop and ask yourself if that is really the truth. You have to admit it's not. So you replace it with something that IS true, something that better reflects reality. You do this often enough, and you feel better.

It took me about a month and a half to feel like I was out of the woods. It's been over 20 years without a major relapse.

[undergroundpanther]

166. depression sucks.it really does.

I struggle with it too. But mine is from trauma and the damage done.
My view is controversial I know,but I think depression and all the other mental illnesses except for the axis 2 stuff like psychopathy /sociopathy authoritarian personality narcissism and organic brain damage or retardation etc..have origins in things besides the sufferer's mind/brain alone.

Mental illnesses are not just something you 'catch' like a cold,it's not something that can be seen by a brain scan(without trauma evidence) or detected like say,diabetes can be found in the blood test.

I think there is a reason for this illusiveness .I think a large part of what mental illness is is a reaction to a deep social sickness.Mental illness is not really an individual sickness alone,per se but it is also a result from a problem with how people treat others how other people routinely violate people's and children's boundaries and hurt one another.


Over time all those things that hurt get internalized,they get stored deep in our min but cannot be questioned or even acknowledged as wrong, build up and they get denied. Kids have a habit at certain ages to blame themselves first for things that go awry,because they are aware of how much they do not know,and conscious of the powerless position childhood puts everyone into.

So stinging words of a critical parent,it can ring in our minds for decades after the first time it is said.Likewise a mean peer's hostility can affect your social trust. Or a nasty mate can ruin your confidence and sexuality or worse.A vicious boss can kill your dreams,and when you deny all these incidences of years of pain and boundary violations,it eventually cannot be denied.The body & memory cannot hold it all alone.In our kind of society if you were to look at who is most at ease with it,you will see that high functioning psychopaths do the best at living this way.

Those of us who are not high functioning or even low functioning psychopaths,when we are forced, lied to, manipulated,
abused,disregarded,bullied,teased,humiliated,
shamed,and hurt by others that demands us to doubt our perceptions of reality around us and our self definitions by the way the bullies among us manipulate language and use others. So we behave against what our true nature or will or inner locus of control is about to survive.Be it caused by circumstances ,by desperate needs,relationships, or reinforced by our own defenses brought onto us by previous wounds of the heart.

To survive in a culture such as ours there you find a betrayal of trust,of self,and a catch 22 of epic proportions.It is there right under the surface of our culture invisible to most,including the so called normal people out there.

So people because they have been messed up and denying it,they play make believe and scapegoat the"mentally ill" for their symptoms.
A person's symptoms reveal the truth.The truth all of society represses about life just to function in a culture that favors the behavior traits of psychopathy over the traits on non-psychopaths. People will deny the things that hurt until they can't contain it and symptoms of what is called mental illness appear.We all grow up in an environment and often it is hostile one way or another.To a sensitive person it can be downright depressing.

I think stress and abuse"normalized",and un solve able catch 22's and this psychopathic culture like ours is a perfectly horrid recipe for crazy -making.

I know when I feel suicidal it is because I just want the pain inside my mind and body to stop.Sometimes I seek the source of that pain and if I cannot see it or don't want to look at it,because I am exhausted,or scared, or whatever.. I'll just say I dunno why I feel that way,and seek to relieve it other ways.
But if I dare to try to find the cause,within my own mind,and seek it myself, often it is because I was hurt before and I pretended it was not painful for me, or I denied my true will for a stupid or self defeating reason,or I blamed myself for something that is not my fault.

I know trauma ,even emotional trauma or verbal abuse really can and does literally fry your neurons.My brain has scars in the tissues themselves because of the abuses I faced over time.I can see them in my own MRI scans.

I know the environment can affect your moods and stuff,everything from allergies to toxins,to diet,to stress,and relationships can and do affect how well you can deal with a society that is totally contrary to your own inner locus of self..

I think mental illness is a environmental,social,traumatic based, sort-of like an illness,that is also a kind of damage that during younger years it builds up slowly over time,and the body and mind deals with it,until it cannot continue to do so,than symptoms appear,than you seek help.

Drugs can affect mood,so can pollution or allergies,and because living in this culture,under this kind of stress causes subtle changes in the brain,changes that medications can help control when the brain and body can no longer contain it.


I used to use splenda,But I found I was allergic to it, it caused me such a bad bout of depression my therapist at the time suggested I get shock treatments.(I never went back to him) When I stopped using(splenda)the rash ring around my neck went away, and my moods became more manageable.I have had psych meds cause effects as bad as splenda did on me. So medications don't always work, but sometimes they do. My meds right now help.I don't take a medicine unless it helps me and it does not endanger me or cause bad side effects.When I no longer need it or feel as if I can cope with the emotions without it,I taper off and work with my docs to do that.


Mental illness origins will stay illusive when all the therapies are all focused on individuals and personal recovery alone,with no environmental context and it's not taken in the social contexts as well,contexts that also shape the way a person develops and copes..or can't cope with life in a crazy-making world.

Here are a few very interesting links.
http://www.cdc.gov/nccdphp/ace/publications.
Links on this page many of them are good.
http://www.upliftprogram.com/h_children.html
http://www.emotional-literacy.com/rpbrief.htm
http://new.vawnet.org/category/Main_Doc.php?docid=301
Beaten children very early on assimilate the violence they endured, which they may glorify and apply later as parents, in believing that they deserved the punishment and were beaten out of love. They don't know that the only reason for the punishments they have ( or in retrospect, had) to endure is the fact that their parents themselves endured and learned violence without being able to question it.

http://www.alice-miller.com/index_en.php
http://www.cqs.com/psycho.htm

Lastly A site about schizophrenia,and the double binds that help create this illness.And the same double binds in different contexts take a toll on 'normal' people too.
http://www.successfulschizophrenia.org/articles/dblbinds.html
about power..
http://www.successfulschizophrenia.org/stories/lefave06pyra.html

[Hannah Bell]

177. I tend to agree. It's interesting to look at extreme situations, e.g.

concentration camps, & see how people respond. Many in the camps responded with what we might call "depression" - they were called "musslemen" (muslims), & basically, they just gave up - lost their affect, quit trying, like zombies waiting to die.

Others responded with dog-eat-dog psychopathy.

and after liberation, survivors had a higher suicide rate. I've always thought it was because they'd seen the worst of others & themselves & the fragility of "civilization" - same reason soldiers have problems.

But part of it was the extent to which, or the way in which, they believed in the mythology of civilization in the first place, too.

I think a significant part of what we call depression isn't organic at all, it's just the way the belief system we're raised in interacts with our experience - it's social.

If I found myself alone in the wilderness fighting for survival, would I be "depressed"? If there were suddenly some great disaster where I & my neighbors had to band together to make it, would I be depressed?

There's also the cross-cultural/cross-species comparisons of depression & the history of its treatment in the US - which don't seem to support organic explanations very well.

[Hannah Bell]

178. for example...

http://www.time.com/time/health/article/0,8599,1717306,00.html

article on studies of prozac showing its no more effective than placebo...

but if you research the history of psych drugs, you find the cycle is: new drug is best thing since sliced bread - a lot of folks take it, it's very effective...new drug has some problems/side effects...drug is found to be no more effective than placebo, but there's this new drug...

i'm not a scientologist, btw...

& i come from a family of depressives....

but after believing in the organic illness called depression for many years, i've come to view it differently than the way we're taught to...

[RainDog]

180. You misunderstood the information in the article - you're wrong

because the "placebo" effect was ONLY in patients who were considered mildly depressed. this is VERY diff. than what is now termed, to distinguish it, "major depressive episode" that is prolonged and is an illness. So, your "view" that is based upon incorrect information would seem to make your view incorrect as well.

This is a major problem. People read something and either don't take the time to actually read an article, or don't want to see the part that actually DISPROVES what they want to say. So, the truth is that Prozac DID have a beneficial effect on severely depressed subjects.

by the things you and the other poster said... diabetes isn't really a disease. It's brought about by environment if you're diabetes II... lack of exercise and over consumption of sugar. but, of course, you have to have a predisposition for this non-illness, too. And Type I Diabetes, or "juvenile" diabetes, has been fatal in the past, but it's merely an expression of our sick society that has refined the nutritional value out of food. Except Type II diabetes, like depression, has existed across times and cultures and species... at least in chimpanzees.

it is ludicrous to try to separate the brain from the rest of the body since our brain is carbon-based and works by the release of hormones and various chemicals/fluids, by the physical production of brain cells far past childhood, and by the proteins our bodies make, along with other things. Of course environment has an impact. However, to state that there is no physiological basis for depression requires denial of scientific work that shows ways in which the brains of depressed and non-depressed people differ.

It is very hard to talk about this because the term depression is so fluid in our language. However, you can look at bi-polar disorder and see OBVIOUS illness. They have found markers that seem to be related to this disease and studies have shown that it can be and is inherited. There is a relation between depression and bi-polar disorder and autism as well. Autism is definitely a brain difference in those who are high-functioning, while it is a debilitating lifelong, uncurable disorder, illness, however to make the distinction.

but believe whatever you want. however, please do not spread lies about depression and its treatment.

[Hannah Bell]

221. I've read the original paper: here it is:

http://medicine.plosjournals.org/perlserv/?request=get-document&doi=10.1371/journal.pmed.0050045&ct=1

"NICE used a three-point difference in HRSD change scores, or a standardized mean difference of 0.50, as criteria of clinical significance <1>.

By that criterion, the differences between drug and placebo were not clinically significant in clinical trials involving either moderately or very severely depressed patients, but did reach the criterion for trials involving patients whose mean initial depression scores were at the upper end of the very severe depression category (mean HRSD baseline 28; Figures 2–4). Given these data, there seems little evidence to support the prescription of antidepressant medication to any but the most severely depressed patients, unless alternative treatments have failed to provide benefit."


No clinical significance in moderately or very severely depressed patients, only for those at the VERY UPPER END of the very severe depression category.

When you understand what a tiny set this is statistically & the various alternative explanations, you understand what I'm saying.

"The response to placebo in these trials was exceptionally large, duplicating more than 80% of the improvement observed in the drug groups. In contrast, the effect of placebo on pain is estimated to be about 50% of the response to pain medication <24–26>. A substantial response to placebo was seen in moderately depressed groups and in groups with very severe levels of depression. It decreased somewhat, but was still substantial, in groups with the most-severe levels of depression.

Although baseline severity related to degree of improvement in the drug groups, the pattern was not linear. Instead, patients who by APA criteria were moderately depressed and those at the very high end of the severely depressed category (i.e., those with initial HRSD scores greater than 28) showed less improvement than those at the lower end of the severely depressed category...

Finally, although differences in improvement increased at higher levels of initial depression, there was a negative relation between severity and the placebo response, whereas there was no difference between those with relatively low and relatively high initial depression in their response to drug. Thus, the increased benefit for extremely depressed patients seems attributable to a decrease in responsiveness to placebo, rather than an increase in responsiveness to medication."

[Hannah Bell]

222. And....

"An eye-popping finding of equal import, which the study's authors Irving Kirsch PhD and Thomas Moore PhD are making in public presentations, is that only 63 percent of those taking antidepressants in the pooled drug studies completed the four to eight-week trials. The combined placebo group recorded a similar figure of 60 percent. Only four of the studies achieved the 70 percent completion rate sought by the FDA.

In other words, nearly 40 percent of those taking antidepressants failed to make it through the four to eight weeks of a normal drug trial."

http://209.85.173.104/search?q=cache:csh_k6ADd9sJ:www.mcmanweb.com/clinical_trials.html+Antidepressants+placebo&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=7&gl=us

[RainDog]

227. and

from your link -

"Counter-argument: Moderately-ill outpatients who have the wits to fill out the paperwork and motivation to get themselves to a clinic are the ones who wind up in trials. These patients are much more likely than severely-depressed patients to respond to placebo treatment. Suicidal patients are excluded from trials. Underpowered studies guarantee a 50 percent failure rate. In seeking to enroll patients for a trial, clinicians are apt to inflate baseline Hamilton scores (which if true opens up its own separate can of worms)."

In other words, as noted above, the studies using placebos cannot comment on severe or even treatment resistant depression... and as you noted above, differences did exist for severely depressed patients, which is what I said intially as well.

"The "counter" forces also note that high placebo response should not be equated with antidepressant ineffectiveness. As well as a pill, the placebo includes an expert healer and treatment elements that mobilize hope, they point out.

Finally, in measuring "average" effects, the "counter" forces submit that the study ignores the reality of a significant subgroup of patients who would have derived considerable benefit from their antidepressants, not to mention patients who never should have been treated with these drugs. The problem is we have no clue who they are.

Walter Brown MD of Brown University raised the argument that a placebo is better at alleviating depression than it is at preventing relapse, and that over the long term (not the eight weeks or less in the trials in question) among patients who have improved on antidepressants, it is not uncommon to find a relapse rate of 10 percent over one year for those continuing on their antidepressant vs 50 percent for those reassigned to a placebo. Dr Antonuccio, on the other hand, cites studies that indicate 33 percent of remitted patients return to depressive symptoms."

--

Also, since there is much biological evidence forthcoming about particular brain structures that are altered by depression, and since there are drugs that are targeted to a variety of chemicals produced or altered by those structures... has anyone done a study with a placebo to see, via MRIs, the impact of various meds vs placebos? This would be the most honest way to determine physiological impact, tho its expression could still vary, I am sure.

As we all know, SSRIs aren't the only medicines for depression, just as serotonin isn't the only chemical involved in mood. This article seems to only deal with SSRIs so any placebo effect would have no bearing on medications that target dopamine or norepherine and therefore offer no evidence for drug combination efficacy, which is often the case with more severe incidences of depression.

In other words, I don't see how your quotes change anything.

[Hannah Bell]

229. The relevant quote:

"By that criterion, the differences between drug and placebo WERE NOT CLINICALLY SIGNIFICANT IN CLINICAL TRIALS INVOLVING EITHER MODERATELY OR VERY SEVERELY DEPRESSED PATIENTS, but did reach the criterion for trials involving patients whose mean initial depression scores were at THE UPPER END OF THE VERY SEVERE DEPRESSION CATEGORY (mean HRSD baseline 28; Figures 2–4)."

Every one of the participants had been diagnosed as depressive by clinical measures, but in the meta-anaysis, there was no evidence of clinical benefit for anyone but those who scored at 2.8-3.0 on the scoring of depression to assess severity - i.e. the top 6.6% of diagnosed participants.



In addition, smaller studies were more likely to find benefit.

In addition, 40% of study subjects dropped out - a high percent. There's a reason studies with high drop-out rates are considered dubious.

The "counter-argument" you post is a hypothesis, listed to counter an opposed hypothesis - but it's not the finding of the study. Do you see the distinction? It's a guess - but there's no study to confirm or refute it.

The finding of the meta-analysis of numerous studies of drug efficacy is that the majority of study participants (all diagnosed with depression) show no more improvement from the drugs under study than from placebo.

I'm not sure why you feel it necessary to argue this point, which is clear.

[RainDog]

235. I noted those b/c the counter arguments noted potential flaws in the studies

that's all.

However, I have experience in my life and the lives of family members and have one family member who did not kill himself b/c he got medical treatment. He did not take an SSRI and nothing more. He did not immediately feel wonderful. He went through years and years of therapy as well.

At this time I have been dx'd as someone suffering from major clinical depression. I stopped talking all meds b/c I no longer had insurance and couldn't afford the meds. When I did, I could not function. But again, this was not one medication, but includes others that interact with SSRIs and brain chemistry.

Since severely depressed patients rarely only take one medication, and in fact will try many diff. medications to find those that work for each person, I think the study is fairly worthless - again, you cannot factor in the benefits of personal attention or hope thru treatment vs. a placebo. So the claims for a placebo are over simplified.

I went thru a time of severe anxiety and I could not function. The only way I was able to continue to do the things I needed to do to survive was via a program of medication. Whether or not there are other, better ways to deal with this -- as I say, this nation doesn't give a shit about people and cost/benefit will always win. My kids, however, were glad I didn't kill myself, tho I came very close to it before I was on medication.

I have relatives who are bipolar and relatives who are high-functioning autistic. The genetic links between these various manifestions of brain development and chemicals, etc. has had an impact on my entire life. My autistic son has no medication to take for his autism and he's never taken any medication for depression. However, the older he gets and the more he understands his isolation, the more he has bouts of depression. I would not hesitate for a minute to agree to medication for him because I have seen the benefits.

I have also known the other side of this because my half-sister's mom killed herself.

My own depression started for the first time when I was 12 b/c of the trauma of seeing my dead mother looking terrified in the hospital after a car ran over her. I lost my memory of the time immediately following for over a decade until I was told about that time - things I said that I have no memory of. My experience with depression has gotten worse as I've gotten older... and of course as I've accumulated more life experiences.

I didn't get any treatment for depression until I was 30 years old, beyond a pastor wanting to pray away my existential dread. That was a bad thing, believe me.

Since there are numerous incidences of people who have benefitted from a combination of medications, I don't understand the purpose of your post. When the test can allow for a placebo effect on the placebo, when it can test people who are using a combination of medications.. then okay, let's see.

I assume you are trying to say, via your post, that medications don't make a difference. But they do, and in ways that are not accounted for in the study. My issue is that I don't want someone to kill him or herself b/c they do not get treatment they need because of others on this board who try to say... just eat right and exercise, or make a mental effort, or one study looked at effectiveness of placebos and placebos were also effective. That's the case in any study. For something like depression, you or they cannot account for other factors and that's what is key if you want to state something is fact.

Also useful for me and others in my family - yoga and meditation. However, it does not stop depression for any of us. It does help alleviate anxiety and help to calm the mind and use cognitive therapeutic tools to change thought patterns.

All of these things are good. To me, the goal is to be able to function and find some way to be able to live. Diff. people respond to diff. things.

If you post a study and fail to point out, at first, that there WERE benefits, then come back to readjust that claim, then you seem to have some sort of agenda that may not have to do with people using whatever tools are at their disposal in order to deal with depression. that's all.

I have no patience for those who try to claim any medication is bad. That's simple stupidity, and harmful too. I don't say you do this, but some on here do. My response is also a response to their claims.

[Hannah Bell]

270. I have my own anecdotal experiences, on both sides of the coin.

I have friends who have been helped by drugs, & swear by them. I've got friends & family who haven't, also. & in my work (clinical/hospital dietitian) I saw both, plus some serious side-effects & over-prescription producing psychosis.

But this isn't "science," it's anecdotes. You say, well, studies don't show everything, & they don't - but the alternative is to rely on anecdotes, & there's too much of that already - corporate sponsored PR, like the silly little story about "imbalanced brain chemistry" that people repeat like gospel.

I have research experience, & it's disillusioned me somewhat. This meta-analysis, IMO, was important because it included unpublished studies done in the attempt to show efficacy - studies which stayed unpublished because they DIDN'T show efficacy, & in my experience in research, this is the NORM. Studies are cherry-picked for publication more often because more of the cost is being borne by drug corps rather than gov't or universities, & gov't regulation of drugs has grown more corp-friendly.

The meta-analysis shows no clinical benefit greater than placebo for the majority of subjects - all of whom were in the studies because they were diagnosed (by physician or rubric) as "depressed".

Only a very, very small subset of the subset of "severely depressed" subjects showed benefit, & to my mind, there are some question to be asked there too, since the # of subjects is so small.

This is the science, & it's incomprehensible how these drugs have become treatment of choice in light of it.

[martymar64]

183. Take a look at the work of Viktor Frankl

He was a concentration camp inmate that formed school of psychological thought called logtherapy. It revolves around humanity's search for meaning in life. His story is very interesting and his theories make alot of sense.

[RainDog]

228. Yes. Existential psychology

the idea that each of us must create meaning over and over again in our lives based upon the circumstances we face. Frankl's account of the concentration camp experience is so sad... and he notes that, in order to survive, people sacrificed their humanity -- yet that survival was a sort of torture too.

What a travesty that the Nazis ever existed. And that they still exist.

[tannybogus]

176. When I was depressed, I knew I was causing a lot of pain.

That's another thing that sucks about the disease. A lot of time, you realize how much of a PITA you are, but you can't help it. For me, it just added guilt to the whole mixture. Talking about the problem could help at times. However, I soon learned that people didn't want to hear it. It was a downer, and I also think it scared them. After a while, I quit talking about it at all. That didn't help. I just felt more isolated. It was a huge circle of chicken and egg problems.

[porphyrian]

181. At a time when mental health is the red-headed stepchild, I'm glad this thread is doing so well.

I don't think I understood depression until I actually experienced it after my marriage ended. I cried every day, nearly all day, for a year (and every other day the year following). I don't really cry, so this was a problem. I couldn't get a job, I didn't have health insurance (most plans have crappy mental health benefits anyway) and if it weren't for my friends and family, I'd be homeless or otherwise institutionalized now (if not dead).

I liken most peoples' understanding of depression to how so many call every severe headache a migraine - they don't get it. Sadly, it seems that this is another of those things that unless you've experienced it for yourself, it is very difficult to understand. And I understand how infuriating and insulting a statement like that is to a reasonably intelligent person with an imagination; I hate people telling me that - I can imagine more than most realize. However, until it happened to me, I was wrong, and I see others making my mistake in this thread.

So, in a time where undiagnosed insanity seems to be running rampant through our society, not the least of which is expressed by our own government, it makes me feel good to see threads like this one. Anyway, I've got to go to work.

[northernlights]

182. depression

and other brain diseases are biochemical in nature, have a genetic component, but are often triggered by stress caused by the external environment. And our environment, both culturally and physically, is a garbage dump.

The brains of children who were exposed to violence during their development are physically different from those not exposed to violence. At least some differences can be seen on brain scans. If I remember correctly (discussed in my anatomy class last spring) it can also be seen physically in the brains of war veterans -- the limbic brain becomes larger.

The limbic brain perceives violence as a direct threat and it doesn't know the difference between real violence and pretend (tv/movie) violence. And it perceives words as hurtful and phsyical blows.

I remember reading some years ago that there are 2 basic ways the brain develops in response to violence -- one is to suppress neurological development (develop "thick skin") and the other is to increase neurological development(become hypervigilant/ hyperreactive). I think this is where genetics play out. And I think the "thick skinned" type are the ones who, at the extreme, become psychopaths/sociopaths. The hyperreactive/hypervigilant are more likely to get clinical depression.

I also hink "depression" is more a syndrome (collection of symptoms) than one specific disease. There are probably a number of different diseases that fall under the syndrome, each involving a different combination of biochemical imbalances.

[LeftyFingerPop]

184. This is a great discussion. There are many excellent responses here. n/t

[Apollo11]

195. I agree. It's just a shame about some of the anger and grumpiness!

I guess folks are just manifesting their symptoms - or whatever ... ;-)

[bridgit]

201. word

[HughMoran]

202. "It worked for me, so therefor it will work for everyone"

That's the kind of thinking that makes people grumpy :D

[Pacifist Patriot]

205. You've lost me. I didn't see that in this thread.

I saw someone who said what he did can work.

[klebean]

212. as a clinical social worker

I've read & written several academic papers. "May" & "can" are two words used prolifically to
avoid any notion of absolutism, of which there is little in the field of mental health. Dichotomous,
or absolute thought patterns may often be seen in depressed clients, and is best treated with a
form of therapy called Cognitive Behavior Therapy (CBT), described in a post above (describing a
helpful book). It is not surprising that on a thread discussing depression that some reacted to Dr. E's
statements in absolutist terms.

The specialty of social workers is that they are trained to meet the client where they "are at" in terms
of a biopsychosocial perspective, also described in a post above. We look at a client's environment and
what psychological, social or biological factors are impacting a client's well-being and functionality.
Social workers have a bad rap in the mainstream (d/t ineptness and/or being untrained), but we
effectively fill in the gaps that often remain when singularly treated by medical doctors, psychiatrists,
psychologists, case managers, etc. Working in tandem w/the aforementioned professionals provides
individuals w/optimal care - IMO.

For many depressed clients, meds are heavensent, and for others, they are a source of frustration b/c
nothing seems to work well enough. When they work, it's awesome b/c then the client is able to take
action such as getting exercise, getting out and about, improving diet (which has been shown to be
effective in prison populations, i.e., using diet to increase levels of serotonin), and eventually finding
the cause of their depression - explanations don't always mean a solution, however understanding
the reason for one's depression help's one to cope better. That is the ultimate goal, also IMO -
to learn how to cope w/one's depression. Just as diabetics and HIV infected individuals do.

[HughMoran]

255. Perhaps you should read a few more posts

Several people have stated definitives WRT the treatment of depression.

[tinrobot]

209. Therapy and antidepressants never worked for me, meditation did.

This is just my personal journey, not advocating for anyone else, just wanted to share.

I was clinically depressed for 15-20 years. I went to therapy, took anti-depressants, ate healthy and did all the other standard medical things that doctors tell you to do. Drugs and talk therapy would alleviate the symptoms, but the depression always came back.

What finally got rid of it (for me) was meditation and a spiritual practice. It got me out of my old brain patterns and allowed me to see the thoughts that made me depressed. A psychiatrist once told me that depression is anger turned inwards. When I started seriously meditating, I learned from a Buddhist monk that anger is caused by non-acceptance of what is (i.e.reality). Having thoughts that conflict with reality created the anger and stress that caused my depression. It was the non-accepting thoughts that were the culprit, not the chemistry in my brain or my childhood traumas or whatever else came up in therapy.

Realizing that I was not my thoughts was the crucial step for finally getting rid of my depression. Using meditation to step back from those thoughts allowed me to see how I created my own personal hell by believing those thoughts. Since I had that breakthrough while meditating I've been depression free ever since. Change your thoughts, change your life.

[Raksha]

211. I think you're definitely on to something.

Re Realizing that I was not my thoughts was the crucial step for finally getting rid of my depression. Using meditation to step back from those thoughts allowed me to see how I created my own personal hell by believing those thoughts. Since I had that breakthrough while meditating I've been depression free ever since. Change your thoughts, change your life.

I just posted a note upstream ranting about how awful it is to suffer from ADD your entire life and not know it. At least depression has a NAME, fer cryin' out loud! Until the mid-1990s whatever mysterious thing was wrong with me had no name for all practical purposes. I was just somehow "made wrong," a chronic underachiever, a "self-defeating" person. Even the shrinks would sometimes suggest I was like that because I WANTED to be!!!

For years I've been hearing about the benefits of meditation, but every time I attempted it, I got frustrated and gave up. It got to the point where it made me angry even to hear about meditation. Just what the hell is it supposed to FEEL like? How do I know if I'm doing it right? That was always the big one for me. How do I know if I'm doing it right?

The benefits are subjective in nature, after all. If you don't think you're getting anything out of it--you're right! You AREN'T getting anything out of it and you're not going to continue.

But about a week ago I read something by a Zen abbess (I'm drawing a blank on her name--Diane something) that actually made sense to me. She said that if you find yourself getting angry (for example) that you can just step into the "dead zone" (her word for it) and observe your thoughts and feelings. Just look at them and cease identifying with them.

I've tried this several times over the past few days and found that it actually seems to work. It works with all negative feelings and habitual or reactive thoughts, not just anger. Just quietly stepping back and observing my thoughts seems to break the cycle, so that I stop identifying with them. Or at least I don't identify with them quite as much.

[klebean]

215. "stepping back and observing my thoughts"

This is the key to mindfulness, with the additional caveat to observe one's thoughts non-judgmentally, and with acceptance.
Siegal (see link) employs an acronym COAL - curiosity, openness, acceptance & love.
This link is a short read and gives a good summary of mindfulness:
http://www.drdanpollets.com/docs/mindfulness%20changes.pdf

[Raksha]

236. I meant observing them non-judgmentally and with acceptance.

I thought that went without saying, but I probably should have said so explicitly. Thanks for the link--I'll check it out.

[tinrobot]

273. ...and so you meditate.

I've tried this several times over the past few days and found that it actually seems to work. It works with all negative feelings and habitual or reactive thoughts, not just anger. Just quietly stepping back and observing my thoughts seems to break the cycle, so that I stop identifying with them. Or at least I don't identify with them quite as much.

When you do that, it's a form of meditation (i.e. observing one's thoughts)

They call mediation a "practice" because that's what you're doing -- you're practicing calming your mind and observing your thoughts. Simple as that. It's like practicing anything, the more you do it, the easier it gets.

Do it enough and it becomes easy to let go of stressful thoughts and not get so caught up in the stresses of everyday life.

[klebean]

213. great contribution to this thread!

In my work I often employ "mindfulness" to assist w/the thought changing process of CBT.
Ellen Sanger's "Mindfulness" is a good read with anecdotes to back up research claims.
Some client's find the research bits dry & boring (understandable), but once past those bits,
the book becomes a sort of a bible - they underline, take notes, etc,. which we discuss in sessions.
I've seen it turn around lives.

[Voice for Peace]

247. In my own experience, that's just one piece, though it's an important one.

I also had a spiritual practice but was unable to practice consistently. I really think each person is unique, even if there are similar manifestations or diagnoses. For one person, changing their thoughts may be easy, and for another literally impossible. Really knowing our own selves well is a good place to begin.

[FKA MNChimpH8R]

218. Well said

I have been dealing with depression much of my adult life. Finally got therapy and medication a few years ago and it helps. I can function again, whereas when I was w/o meds or therapy, I could not. This is serious business, and it's a shame that this point still has to be made.

A few months after I started therapy, I was also diagnosed with Asperger's Syndrome, and that was a relief. It really was the way I am wired, and I stopped beating myself up for being "too dumb" to understand other people. I just don't get the way the social world works.

[flvegan]

240. This thread is depressing.

[LeftyFingerPop]

241. Then don't read it. It is important to many here.

[flvegan]

242. Not the OP

nor some of the info. The "other" stuff. Sorry to ruffle your feathers, Clarence. :eyes:

[LeftyFingerPop]

244. Then do not respond to the OP, and perhaps clarify exactly what you mean.

It ain't hard. And you don't have to give me the eyes. And you don't have to call me Clarence.

This is not the lounge. If you have something to say, just say what you mean instead of coming across as you did.

If you have a problem with this thread, you might be better served to say why, and perhaps even contribute something.

[flvegan]

246. Yes, Lord philboy.

:eyes:

Oops, sorry. Not supposed to do that.

If you can't see something as a general overview of a well-intended thread that has, in several places, gone unfortunately wrong, then I'm so very sorry for you.

I'll do you a solid and hide this thread so I don't make the error of posting in it again.

[LeftyFingerPop]

249. LOL! We both know you did not hide this...

Twice with the name calling and twice with the eyes.

I'm sorry that you cannot express yourself without resorting to these two crutches.

You response to this thread kind of exemplifies what the OP was all about in the first place.

[The Doctor.]

257. Hahahaha!

Not bad.

[LeftyFingerPop]

248. Moved. n/t

[Bluerthanblue]

260. Error: you can only recommend threads within 24 hrs...

If I could have, I would have.

Excellent post-

Thank you for this.

:hug:

blu

[alarimer]

269. We have finally acknowledged that my mom has major depression.

She is supposed to see a doctor to get meds and then find a therapist. Whether she actually does this is another story. She knows she has to do something. She drinks at night (every night) in order to fall asleep. She has fallen twice and hurt herself. This disease runs in my family. I also believe my brother has it.

I am deeply worried about this but do not know what to do exactly.

[tinrobot]

275. If she knows she has to do something, it's a good start.

I feel for you, my mother was similarly affected. You can only do so much... here's some things you can do...

If you can -- get her to stop drinking, it only makes the depression worse.

Next, get her doctor to see about antidepressants - they can help lift her mood and get her to a place where she can see more clearly.

Antidepressants, however, are only a pain reliever, they will alleviate the symptoms so she can work on herself. That work is a long process that only she can do - it may involve therapy, AA, or some other program that works for her. Love and support from her family will keep her motivated to do that work.

Good luck.