Where do DUers think I am on the political spectrum?

[mvd]

I put this in the Lounge because it's more of a social topic than a political discussion topic.

Here's my ideal party platform:

- on abortion, pro-choice. Third trimester partial birth abortions allowed when life or health of mother is at risk.

- support right of gays to marry

- on health care, single payer.

- on taxes and spending, I'd like to see a 50% top rate for most, while keeping taxes on people making under $75,000 a year low - multi-millionaires get a 75% top rate. Increase spending on education and transportation. More money for stem cell research.

- on the death penalty, I support abolishing the death penalty. I could only see death penalty use in a country where the prison system didn't work well at all.

- on energy, support Obama's suggestion of cracking down on oil speculators and spending more on alternative energy research. Reduce OPEC/oil company dependence. Support Kyoto.

- on war/peace, I only support conflict as a last resort - if the country is under imminent danger of attack. And I don't mean isolated terror attacks - those are best addressed by strengthening security here.

- on drugs, I support legalizing marijuana only

- on guns, I support mandatory licensing in addition to the waiting periods and bans on certain kinds of more harmful bullets and bans on fully automatic weapons. Handgun purchasing limits in urban areas urged, while keeping track of guns used in crimes.

- on illegal immigration, I support a path to citizenship if a person has been here 5 years, can pass a citizenship test, has a clean record except for the illegal immigration, and goes to the back of the line. Person must also either pay a fine or serve a short jail sentence; whichever is more feasible.

- on affirmative action, I'm not big on quotas, but we should retain the right to sue for discrimination based on sex, race, or GLBT.

- on separation of church/state, there should be no more entry of the church into the state.

- on social security, absolutely no privatization

- on civil liberties, abolish the Patriot Act and restore FISA to its original state. Investigate Bush executive orders.

[otherlander]

1. Other: Sane.

[mvd]

2. I like it

Thanks. :hi:

[petronius]

3. So you don't care about the ESA!? - Damn freeper...

:P

[mvd]

4. I added my support for legalizing gay marriage

[mvd]

5. Moved, since it appears this will get more exposure here

[ghostsofgiants]

6. Not sure where to classify you, I find political identity is better self-applied sometimes...

But one point I will make:

on war/peace, I only support conflict as a last resort - if the country is under imminent danger of attack. And I don't mean isolated terror attacks - those are best addressed by strengthening security here.

That also requires a serious second look (and subsequent overhaul) of American foreign policy and international relations.


Oh, also: I would only support the death penalty in a country where the prison system didn't work well at all.
That's problematic also, as the death penalty's effectiveness as a deterrent has been shown over and over to be basically non-existent.

[mvd]

9. Hi, primate

I think an overhaul of American foreign policy is needed, unfortunately. As for the death penalty, only in anarchy should it be allowed so murderers don't run loose. It would be for safety reasons. The U.S. isn't even close to that kind of situation.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

21. No, that's a mistatement.

What has been shown is that the death penalty is not a more effective deterrent than the serious prison terms that those offences would otherwise get.

In a country where it wasn't possible to imprison people for some reason (e.g. your community is on a knife-edge of starvation), there might be more of a case for the death penalty.

[ghostsofgiants]

32. Actually, no.

Evidence has shown that countries in which the death penalty (i.e. the U.S.) is active has higher homicide rates. I don't remember the numbers now, it was a couple years ago I did my studies on it, but the consensus seems to be that 1) state violence, including capital punishment, has a legitimizing effect on violence, so it's more likely to result in further violence in many cases, and 2) most homicide is a heat of the moment thing with no rational cost-benefit analysis on the part of the person comitting the act, so it will have no deterrent effect.

[mvd]

35. Those are good arguments

It's just in countries with no real prison system that studies would be interesting. Though I am morally against the DP across the board.

[ghostsofgiants]

37. The study I based my research around examined a lot of different countries.

I forget the authors, but the study itself was "Violence and Crime in Cross National Perspective."

The course itself was taught by a serial killer expert (Elliot Leyton, if you wanna look him up; his books are great, probably the best professor I've ever had) who was very anti-death penalty himself. (A convert from being very pro death penalty, interestingly.)

[mvd]

38. Sounds like a good course

Note that I used the wrong word when I said I "support" the use in some countries.

[ghostsofgiants]

39. Understandable.

And the course was brilliant. One of the best courses of my university career, for sure. Elliot was technically retired when he was teaching it, he was just doing it for the love of teaching, haha, so it made the course even more enjoyable somehow.

[mvd]

42. Is he still teaching it?

:hi:

[ghostsofgiants]

43. I don't think so.

I think my class was the last one he taught. Seriously though, check out his books if you have any interest in serial killers and such. They are top notch.

[mvd]

51. I did an amazon search

http://www.amazon.com/s/qid=1218573473/ref=sr_nr_i_0?ie=UTF8&rs=&keywords=Elliot%20Leyton&rh=i%3Aaps%2Ck%3AElliot%20Leyton%2Ci%3Astripbooks

Is there a best one to start with here?

[ghostsofgiants]

52. Hunting Humans is probably his most popular.

:thumbsup:

[mvd]

54. Thanks!

:hi:

[ghostsofgiants]

55. Hope you enjoy.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

57. That's an absolutely classic example of confusing correlation with causation.

In general, countries with more police have higher crime rates, too...

The only study on the subject that I'm aware of was by Isaac Ehrlich in 1975 (I had to look that up...), and came to the conclusion that each execution translated, on average, into seven fewer homicides, but the source I found that in says that the study is "often described as optimistic".

I don't think your bald "evidence has shown" is justified, though, I'm afraid.

[ghostsofgiants]

58. I'm stuck at work so I don't have time or access to info to debate you on this.

But I stand by it.

[mvd]

59. I've seen the same kind of data myself

I know it's out there, but would have to search for it. :hi:

[LynneSin]

7. FREEPER - SOMEONE TOMBSSTONE MVD!!!

:hide:

[mvd]

8. I'll ban myself!

:P

[krispos42]

34. It's about time!

Elad had to put put in a dedicated server to keep track of your freeper record here!

:P

[mvd]

36. Hi, krispos

That damn Elad! :P

[noamnety]

10. Other - not enough info

I would need to hear your views on Clinton's sanctions, on welfare reform, on the reasons why you "aren't big on" affirmative action - generally more about your mindset there, your views on when we should withdraw from Iraq, and your views on neoliberalism and capitalism in general to make a determination.

However, I will add a few things jump out at me in your post:

"pro-choice. Third trimester partial birth abortions allowed when life or health of mother is at risk" <-- I don't consider it "pro-choice" if you think it's the government's job to restrict women's rights to choose. It's not sovereignty if you think an outside entity has the right to "give" you free will - under their terms.

and regarding this: "on the death penalty, I support abolishing the death penalty. I would only support the death penalty in a country where the prison system didn't work well at all." My question is: Do you think the prison system works well here?


Based on your focus on primarily social issues without really challenging or wanting to upset the existing power structure in any meaningful way, I am leaning toward classifying you as a centrist.

[mvd]

11. Some answers

Yes, I support withdrawing from Iraq starting now and in phases. We should only maintain an aid/support force there.

Clinton welfare reforms were too harsh, as are the new bankruptcy reforms.

Third-trimester abortions are very rare anyway. I just don't support aborting a healthy baby right before born unless there's an emergency.

I think the prison system in the U.S. is more than adequate. No death penalty here, ever, and I prefer it not be used world-wide. I'm just saying I can see the use in countries that have no real justice system.

I think some affirmative action is still needed, though I think we can have it without strict quotas.

[noamnety]

14. I consider your Iraq position centrist .

Not that this is an appropriate thread for debating it - but in clarifying your position, if your ideal end result is to "start" withdrawing forces, but leave some there "for aid" - that's far to the right of where I am, and I consider it centrist/neoliberal/colonial in nature.

Your views on the prison system here and your somewhat hesitant wording on affirmative action lead me to believe that you have not taken women studies or African American studies formally - or done serious self-study of the people that would be studied in those courses (I don't think formal education is required to understand those issues, but it is a field of study). I view you as centrist in those areas as well.

[mvd]

16. There's some room for disagreement

I think there is still use for AA and think the prison system can be reformed so that fewer drug users get imprisoned and mandatory sentences are not used very much. I also am against "three strikes." There also is a degree of racism and slant in favor of the wealthy in our justice system. So I do not think the prison system is adequate in all areas; it just does a good job of keeping the violent from society.

[noamnety]

18. This is where the lack of women's studies is visible

"it just does a good job of keeping the violent from society."

(That's often not the opinion of those who have tried to prosecute a rape.)

[mvd]

22. I'm seeing it from a DP stance

I support life imprisonment instead of the death penalty, and one of my many reasons is that escapes are rare. I am not arguing your point.

[noamnety]

24. I'm opposed to the death penalty as well.

And yes, escapes from prison are rare - life in prison seems to be a fine option (cheaper, more effective) than the death penalty. I think we agree on that.

It was your characterization of the prison/justice system here that made my eyebrows go up. I don't think I could ever refer to it as "more than adequate" for many reasons.

[mvd]

25. Sorry if I wasn't clear enough

I think we agree a lot more than we disagree. :hi:

[noamnety]

26. I suspect we disagree more than you realize.

I think if you understood that, you'd be more likely to understand why I put you in the centrist category - and why some people view liberalism as centrist - not as two separate categories, with left of center in-between.

[mvd]

29. That's ok

I put the topic out there out of curiosity to see what DUers think. I would probably put myself as left wing in the current U.S. environment, but your perspective is certainly valid. I'm probably more centrist in the world-view of things.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

28. Note that most of what's usually called the "pro-choice" movement doesn't meet your standard.

Third-trimester abortion on demand is a position even most pro-choice campaigners don't support.

[noamnety]

33. "on demand"

isn't a phrase my pro-choice friends use, for obvious reasons.

[SmokingJacket]

12. I'd think of you as a moderate liberal, like myself

You didn't say anything about unions, though.

[mvd]

13. I'm big on supporting unions

Sometimes they can be corrupted, too, but we need a strong union presence.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

15. A dirty, gun-grabbin', atheistic, latte-drinkin', elitust, librul that hates America.

[mvd]

17. LOL

I am a Christian (just not one who pushes his beliefs on others) and am a true patriot, but the RW would never see that.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

20. True believers inevitably inject the word "real".

As in Real Christian, Real patriot, Real republican/democrat, Real man, Real fill in the blank, if you don't fit precisely into their definition of whatever appellation they endow you with.

Undoubtedly, to some people you aren't a "real" liberal.

[mvd]

23. See, I fell into that trap from the other direction

I see my views as more patrotic than those of Freepers, since dissent is patriotic, but I should be avoiding the "real."

[noamnety]

40. can you clarify what you mean when you say you are patriotic? (nt)

[mvd]

47. I like America enough for me to challenge the gov't

When I don't think that government is good for the country - like the Bush admin.

[mvd]

19. BTW, I took out the support language in my DP stance

Even in the case I described, I would not support its use. I just could see the reasoning more.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

27. Which political spectrum?

In America, my impression is that you're moderately far left.

Here in the UK, you'd be "generic left", I think.

[mvd]

31. That's up to you

I had the U.S. in mind since I live here, but it's your interpretation.

[iamthebandfanman]

30. If you live in the united states

a liberal.


anywhere else, a moderate.

[slackmaster]

41. Fully automatic weapons have been strictly regulated since 1934 and are not an issue

You fail on gun knowledge. Typical of self-identified "liberals".

I voted Liberal.

[mvd]

44. But you can still legally keep one

It requires a license. They are alo ok to sell or trade.

I favor some form of assault weapon ban but would like to reasearch first before I'd propose anything.

There is room for different gun views in our party. I would like to ban them altogether, but in the U.S. culture, that would get nowhere.

[slackmaster]

45. That is not an issue for public safety

Legal machinegun owners are probably the most law-abiding people you can find.

What do you want to do, piss off a bunch of rich people who are no threat to you or anyone else? That would be politically unwise.

Restricting peoples' choices without a clear offsetting benefit to the public isn't liberal, it's authoritarian.

[mvd]

46. I favor some extra restrictions

What I don't favor is making them a major part of the party platform. I realize my views go against the views of many, even here - but they remain my views.

[slackmaster]

48. Pointless restrictions on guns got us into deep shit in 1994

i.e. the now-expired federal "assault weapons" ban. Are you sure you want to go there again? The AWB failed to improve public safety. It's most noticeable lasting effects are a proliferation of weapons similar to the ones that were banned, and a political radicalization of gun owners.

I have some constructive suggestions for changes in gun laws that would affect only criminals:

- Make the National Instant Check System (NICS) available for use by licensed collectors and non-licensees. Safeguards would have to be included to prevent abuse.

- Compel the states to promptly report to NICS all events that disqualify a person from buying a firearm, and provide federal funds for them to modernize computer systems if needed. Some of them are way behind the curve reporting mental health records. One example of this failure is that the shooter at Virginia Tech was able to buy a gun from a licensed dealer. He should have been stopped by NICS.

- A national concealed-carry license with tough but objective requirement, to be issued to any qualifed person.

- Repeal the pointless Bush I era Exective Order regarding "sporting purposes" for imported firearms. All that did was create an industry of companies that import firearms, then replace a handful of parts with functionally identical US-made ones to get around the restriction.

- Provide basic gun safety education in public schools. Every kid should know how to safely handle and unload the most common types of firearms.

- Reduce restrictions on sound suppressors. Shooting causes noise pollution and hearing loss. You can walk into a gun store in the UK and buy one without any paperwork hassle. Some places in Sweden actually require their use on shooting ranges.

If anything, the restrictions on fully automatic weapons are too strict. 74 years of experience shows that the National Firearms Act background check, tax stamp, and registration system is nearly 100% effective at preventing criminal misuse of those weapons. But the registry was closed in 1986, which has resulted in riduculous prices. Machineguns are now available only to the very wealthy. Collectors of modest means, especially those of us who live in states that put even stricter controls on automatic firearms, should be able to buy them. :hi: It's easier for a collector in Finland to buy a machinegun than it is for a collector in the USA.

The Democratic Party should fully embrace the right of lawful citizens and residents to keep and bear arms for any legal purpose.

[mvd]

49. I'm not getting ino a gun debate here

I'm sticking to my positions and do think my restrictions affect criminals with little loss of civil liberty. But of course am open minded. Your stance is from the perspective of gun rights people, but are not the only perspectives out there. There's a lot of conflicting data so I remain open minded.

[slackmaster]

50. Yeppers, you are a Liberal all right

Not a classical one, but liberal as is widely accepted in current parlance.

[mvd]

53. BTW, some of your suggestions I'd agree with

I think I'm a pragmatic liberal. I want to beat McCain first of all, and if that means reaching out to gun owners, I'm ok with it. :hi:

[mvd]

56. Any more votes?

Last kick for this little exercise. Maybe I should go into sociology. :-)

[mvd]

60. Interesting results so far

My personal definitions would be:

Bill Clinton - slightly right of center

Hillary Clinton - moderate

Obama - left-of-center (but campaigning like a moderate)

Kerry - liberal

Me - far left wing

Bernie Sanders - socialist

[DeadElephant_ORG]

61. Left. And I like your platform - a lot