Russians losing propaganda war

[dipsydoodle]

The Bush administration appears to be trying to turn a failed military operation by Georgia into a successful diplomatic operation against Russia.

It is doing so by presenting the Russian actions as aggression and playing down the Georgian attack into South Ossetia on 7 August, which triggered the Russian operation.

Yet the evidence from South Ossetia about that attack indicates that it was extensive and damaging.
>
Human Rights Watch concluded after an on-the-ground inspection: "Witness accounts and the timing of the damage would point to Georgian fire accounting for much of the damage described ."

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/7562611.stm

[Romulox]

1. It's pretty disgusting to use Human Rights Watch to attempt to justify Russian aggression. nt

[Oregone]

4. This situation is sad...

People in the USA have been trained to hate the Russian's for so long that they cannot really get the gist of what is happening here.

[Romulox]

8. What's sad is selectively quoting a source, secure in the knowledge that few will follow up.

:hi:

[theboss]

12. Which is Russia wants to greatly expand its sphere of influence

And is threatening the Ukraine and Poland.

There are multiple parties in the wrong here. But ultimately, I don't care about who started what.

What I care about are the long-term plans of Russia.

[gatorboy]

26. Saakashvili was a fool to give Putin the excuse he needed to go in.

Even more of a fool for thinking he could keep his little invasion secret.

http://www.reuters.com/article/worldNews/idUSL563909920080805?pageNumber=1&virtualBrandChannel=0

Tue Aug 5, 2008 2:49pm

AVNEVI, Georgia (Reuters) - Georgia on Tuesday denied preparing for war in its breakaway South Ossetia region following deadly weekend clashes that have raised fears of a new war in the Caucasus.

Russia said it would not be indifferent if there was further violence on its border, escalating a war of words in a region where Moscow and the West are vying for influence over vital energy transit routes.

"If events develop according to the worst-case violence scenario, Russia will not allow itself to remain indifferent, considering that Russian citizens live in South Ossetia, particularly in the conflict zone," Interfax news agency quoted Russian special ambassador Yuri Popov as saying.

But Georgia rejected accusations of indiscriminate shelling of Ossetian-held areas over the weekend, and denied it was preparing for conflict.

-----------------------------------------------
But the West, unfortunately, has been consistent on supporting fools lately.

[Virginia Dare]

35. Important questions to ask..

who put him up to it and why? Seeing as how he is little more than our puppet, it makes you go hmmmmmm...I'm sure Pooty knows at any rate.

[magellan]

38. The US put Saakashvili up to it

...knowing full and well what the Russian response would be, and determined to use the resulting fear of Russian aggression to persuade reluctant customers to take the US missile defense shield. And what do you know, Poland did just that.

That's my theory.

[Virginia Dare]

15. The gist of what is happening here..

is that nobody is right and many more innocent people will die.

[Oregone]

34. And more will die while people point fingers and bring back the cold war rhetoric

There is a natural inclination to blame Russia in the US and react. This is only going to spiral with the uS support. The only losers will be everyone in the crossfire, and the reality is, the regimes of all countries involved care little about them.

[malaise]

5. Really

Who cited them yesterday before they went on the ground in Georgia?

[Romulox]

7. From HRW's current Front Page: "Georgia: Russian Cluster Bombs Kill Civilians"

It's disgusting to pretend (as the author in the OP has,) that HRW is pointing the finger at one side, or siding with Russia...

Georgia: Russian Cluster Bombs Kill Civilians

Stop Using Weapon Banned by 107 Nations

Human Rights Watch researchers have uncovered evidence that Russian aircraft dropped cluster bombs in populated areas in Georgia, killing at least 11 civilians and injuring dozens.

http://www.hrw.org/

[dipsydoodle]

20. Actually 111 Nations

and the USA wasn't one them : http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/story/2008/05/28/ST2008052803176.html

[truebrit71]

9. Did you not read the post? The Russians WEREN'T the aggressors...

...

[Romulox]

11. Ummm, yes they were *one* (not "the") aggressor in this situation.

Your framing "the aggressors" implies that only one side is at blame. Simplistic and binary thinking...

[truebrit71]

32. Yeah, the Russians were the aggressors AFTER the Georgian's were the aggressors..

...makes sense to you right? :crazy:

Who made the first move? Georgia. Ergo THEY were the aggressors.

See: Logic 101

[Igel]

37. Only if you set the starting point correctly.

And dislike the very idea of nuance.

Georgia breaks out of USSR. S. Ossetia, who wasn't the majority, decides to secede from Georgia. There's a bit of a war, with Russia helping their former allies the Ossetes with weapons and money. Chechen' tries the same thing, gets no support, is crushed.

Georgia engages in a bit of ethnic cleansing. Ossetians engage in a bit of ethnic cleansing. It has to stop, to be frozen until later when it might just thaw.

OSCE-approved peacekeeping operation, with Georgians, Ossetians, and Russians on rebel "Georgian" territory. Continual fire across borders. Georgian peacekeepers can't impose order, Russians and Ossetians don't allow Georgian troops to impose order. To maintain balance of power, S. Ossetia somehow always manages to have sufficient Russian weapons, even more than when peacekeeping operations started.

Georgia blockades S. Ossetia. S. Ossetia is even more reliant on Russia.

Georgia arms itself. It's also subject to a Russian blockade. And not only Ossetia is Russian-controlled, but Abkhazia, this time with no Georgian participation and the occasion batch of actual Russian troops. Similarly, "peacekeeping" seems to be synonymous with "increased military capability".

Russia pitches fit when Georgia cannot control all of its own territory from Muslim "fighters" helping "freedom fighters" in Ingushetia and Chechnya. Russia pitches fit when it's hinted that it control its territory to stop "freedom fighters" in Ossetia and Abkhazia.

Both sides protest when rockets and gunfire cross Ossetian/Georgian border for 15 years. Nobody much cares except the Georgian and Russian media.

S. Ossetians put up signs "Nash president" for Putin--changed immediately to Medvedev. They're issued Russian passports and are, for all intents and purposes, Russian citizens. Just about every S. Ossetian ministry or government office is has an ethnic Russian chief or deputy, often transferred from a similar job inside Russia proper. They've achieved independence, Russia-style.

Portion of S. Ossetia that's majority-Georgian sets up independent sub-breakway region, when Georgians in S. Ossetia are discriminated against. Russia and S. Ossetia term the claim of discrimination against Georgians a provocation. But they don't bother to fight the sub-break-away territory, since it's not worthwhile, and truly small.

In July, parallel troop exercises: Russian in N. Ossetia, joint US/Georgian in Georgia. Increased provocations across Georgian/S. Ossetian "border", with Russian and S. Ossetian peacekeepers making sure that only Georgia's supposed to hold its fire. Having placed the S. Ossetian military checkpoints adjacent to civilian targets makes any Georgian response almost certain to involve civilians. Georgian checkpoints set up outside adjacent Georgian villages. But still the villages are hit.

In early-mid July, a Russian-controlled botnet is set up, ready to launch a cyberattack on Georgia. It stays quiet until Aug. 8.

In August, the rate and size of provocations from the S. Ossetian side increases. Georgia responds, Russia insists that S. Ossetia and Georgia be punished, and rejects the idea of Russia "peacemakers" in S. Ossetia having any control over the area. Not their problem.

NOW WE START KEEPING TRACK; WE MUST FORGET THE PAST.

Georgia attacks. 1500 Ossetians--or Russian citizens--are killed. Extensive devastation, genocide, innocents being gunned down, looting. All the damage is caused by Georgia, intentionally so.

Or the Georgians attack the government center and the hill with electrical/radio infructure in Tskhinvali, the damage reported by Western reporters, with only adjacent areas affected, and a bit of looting. Some Russian peacekeepers are killed. Russian tv says 2000 killed, refugees say maybe a few hundred, maybe less. HRW says, as of this date, < 100 killed.

Probably more Russian "peacemakers" were killed than S. Ossetian civilians and "peacekeepers" put together. Certainly more Georgians.

Perhaps the Russian peacekeepers shouldn't have set up their botnet in advance. Shouldn't have armed the S. Ossetians. And should have curtailed the allies attacks. Then they'd have some moral authority.

Personally, I still find the banner "Ossetian Year of Trans-Dniestria" to be revealing. In solidarity with a sister breakaway republic, the only thing in common is a large number of Russians and lots of Russian support, both sharpening ethnic differences, weakening a formerly forced Russian ally, and projecting Russian power, however trivially, outside of Russia. That makes a real man proud, apparently.


Now let's back up: "Who made the first move? Georgia. Ergo THEY were the aggressors."

"First move"? Would that be when S. Ossetia decided to break away? A bad thing for Chechnya, a good thing for S. Ossetia? Perhaps it was the Georgian response to the independence movement? Or the first to fire a volley after the peacekeepers moved in? Or the provocations a few days before the Georgian invasion? Do we count the fact that the Ossetians supported the Russians in 1921 against the Georgians as grounds for some emnity? Or whatever the Georgians did before that? Perhaps the Russian conquest of Georgia in the early 1800s?

"First move"?

Who gets to decide when we reset the clock? I don't. Why do you?

[amandabeech]

41. Truly excellent post. Thank you! n/t

[truebrit71]

42. In this latest ass-kicking of Shitforbrainskis troops it was HE that was the aggressor..

...Russian merely "pushed back".

And rightly so.

[Oregone]

2. Losing Propaganda war in the US doesn't equate to losing truth war globally

Many country do not have their heads up the ass of their coporate anchormen.

[ProgressiveFool]

17. good point - elsewhere they still get real news

Only the US and Russia are dominated by state propaganda.

Now there's a fun exercise - put some Russian reporting on a particular situation next to some American reporting on the same situation. They would read completely differently, and you probably couldn't even say that the truth lies somewhere in between.

[Oregone]

31. Thatd be a funny exercise

Im glad I now get BBC, CBC and even Chinese news now. Of all the channels, CNN and HNN are the crappiest up here.

[AllentownJake]

3. Battle and not War

This is phase one of Russia's plan.

[Ganja Ninja]

6. Propaganda can't stop a tank.

The right wing media can lie and spin their asses off but it isn't going to change facts on the ground. Putin has knocked the chip off the bully's shoulder and the bully doesn't know what to do about it. All he can do is turn up the volume on his propaganda machine.

[theboss]

13. Only DU can turn Putin into a hero

This is absolute insanity.

[Virginia Dare]

14. The enemy of my enemy is my friend?..

he's the only one with the balls to stand up to Bushco, so I guess that's why he's being glorified. I don't lose sight of what a cold blooded killer he is. That's what scares me so. I'm not so sure either Bush or Putin is playing with the full deck.

[Romulox]

16. Anybody but Bush!!!! nt

[theboss]

18. I see Bush as a politicial enemy.

I see Putin as a real enemy at the moment.

Bush will be gone in a few months. An expansionist Russia will be around, well, probably forever.

Some perspective would be nice.

[Virginia Dare]

19. I will give Putin this over Bush...

I think he has the interests of Russia more at heart than Bush has the interests of the U.S. Putin is just trying to gain an edge in power for Russia, Bush has done nothing but throw U.S. power away.

[theboss]

21. Whatever

None of that matters.

[Virginia Dare]

24. Agreed, more death, more destruction, this is all this means...n/t

[Ganja Ninja]

22. There aren't any heroes in all of this.

Least of all the monkey in the flight suit with the over size codpiece. His example has lowered the bar for standards of behavior for every dictator petty or otherwise. He's the one that's set the pattern. Why should anybody be surprised that somebody else is following his example?

[theboss]

27. Do you really think Putin wouldn't be Putin if Gore or Kerry were president?

Good heavens.

[Ganja Ninja]

28. Do you really think that Bush's behavior over the last 7 1/2 years

hasn't affected Putin?

Do you think that our invasion and occupation of another country for the sole purpose of stealing their natural resources hasn't made everyone in the world sit up and take notice?

The war in Iraq and the use of former Soviet satellites in support of it makes the Russians nervous. Add in the aggressive steps the Georgians took toward their own Russian minority. Add in the current prosperity of Russia because of the escalation of oil prices (not to mention our own precarious state both economically and militarily) and you get the circumstances that we find ourselves in.

Under a Gore or a Kerry we wouldn't be in this mess and Putin likely wouldn't be doing what he's doing.

[Virginia Dare]

36. Totally agree with this excellent post...n/t

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

30. I don't think the Georgians would have leveled Tshkinvali.

Do you?

[hogwyld]

23. Why do you hate other leaders

that poke sticks in our Fuhrer's eye? While * is a criminal, at least Putin is a criminal that cares about his country.

[bemildred]

45. Only a political virgin expects politicians to be heros.

People are impressed with Putin because he is competent and intelligent, not because he is Mother Theresa, or because they agree with his agenda. This reminds me of the Edwards is an Adulterer donnybrook. Politicians are not plaster saints, most of the time they are not even nice people. But a politician who is sharp and energetic ought to paid attention to, respect is not merely polite, it is wise. Underestimating ones opponents in service of ones own ego is a recipe for getting your clock cleaned. As we have just seen.

[bemildred]

10. A bit of lipstick will not pretty up this pig. nt

[Overseas]

25. Why the distorted thread title? -- US is only winning propaganda INSIDE THE USA

Only in the USA with our consolidated corporate media ownership are "Russians losing propaganda war."

Elsewhere, there are enough independent media sources to see this as the U.S. encouraging Georgia to move against the separatist elements the Russians may have encouraged to stop Georgia and Ukraine from joining NATO.

http://www.opednews.com/articles/There-May-Be-Many-Mushroom-by-Paul-Craig-Roberts-080814-100.html

[tuckessee]

29. It was inevitable that their PR efforts in the West & US would fail.

They're trying to win the hearts & minds of a people that have no heart and closed, tiny minds.

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[rustydad]

39. Have you lost your mind?

The anti Russian diatribe on DU is deeply troubling. I don't know if it is sincere or the work of trolls. But in any case I would expect more from a progressive web site. Sad. Bob

[hankthecrank]

44. So what are russian in gori for they lost don't where south ossetia is?

I guess they are protecting South ossetia maybe they should have gotten some maps so they know where to go!

[LittleClarkie]

46. Why should I be pro Russia if I am a progressive?

Making apologies for a country that's dropping cluster bombs on civilians is also disturbing.

I'm not on either side. Putin doesn't get a cookie for merely opposing Bush.

Was Putin just waiting for a reason to go into Georgia? Did he have his army amassed and at the ready? Or are they normally that quick when being provoked?

[moondust]

40. And if the BBC says so then it must be true.

:sarcasm:

(There is no way to know that after one week of dueling propaganda and maybe never.)

[dipsydoodle]

48. At least the BBC

they are taking care to distinguish between what their reporters "have seen with their own eyes - on the spot" as opposed to "hearsay, rumour and innuendo" There are some occasional camera phone video clips slipping out now and when used they make it clear it is impossible to say when the video was shot. I believe they are acting as honestly as they are able to.

On the subject of mobiles its on record that there is on average a mobile phone / 2 members of the Georgian population. Hence how ludicrous it is when Sukyawilly says so and so and it turns out to be blatantly untrue -they have quite reasonable means of communication to find out exactly what's occurring and when.

As an aside - when CNN's Michael Ware is on the spot then you get closest to the truth as is humanely possible IMHO.

[Henny Penny]

49. Sadly for a lot of Britons that's not sarcasm...

sorry Edward but the beeb is a state run broadcaster in a state at war.

They are just a little bit subtler than their US counterparts. Usually.

[DailyGrind51]

43. The "average American" still thinks of the ColdWar version of Russia,

and did not become familiar with Georgia, until the break-up of the Soviet Union. I am embarrassed to admit that I didn't even know there was a "South Ossetia", and I have visited both Russia and Ukraine when they were still members of the Soviet Union! The ethnic hatreds among the various "republics" are as deep and complex as those in the Balkans. I am not surprised that Georgia would hit South Ossetia first, upon learning that they would prefer affiliation with Russia. Look at Israel's reluctance to part with the West Bank! "Breaking up" is hard to do, especially when only one party wants to leave!

[gulliver]

47. Wouldn't have happened but for Bush...

Bush is about to lose territory to Russia--or get us all blown up. I wonder how the Republicans are going to claim this rise of Putin and the return of an aggressive Russia as one of their national security successes. Give Rove a minute and he'll find a way. He'll have the Dems on the defensive in the next day or so. Watch.

Propaganda war? Russia will take the territory and concede the momentary loss of a "propaganda war." The territory is real. The propaganda war won't matter once we reach the end of the average news consumer's attention span.