Didn't Georgia Launch a Pre-emptive Attack on August 7th

[fascisthunter]

therein starting the conflict in the first place. And so why lie, and claim to be innocent....?

[Cooley Hurd]

1. Georgia went into S. Ossetia to crackdown on the seperatists...

...who are, ethnically, Russian.

[dipsydoodle]

10. Well sort of...................

they actually used a huge artillery bombardment.

[Cooley Hurd]

11. Yes - the Georgians learned Shock & Awe from their allies...

x(

[dipsydoodle]

25. I think in this instance

they'd been watching too many WW2 films.

[truebrit71]

2. Because it's hard to play the victim if you threw the first punch...

...and with the right-wing media in this country heeling to the */Cheney version of what happened, the truth has to come out through the European media..

[tbyg52]

3. I don't remember the exact date,

but I think it's pretty well established that they attacked first.

[ljm2002]

4. Why yes, they did...

...and they killed a few Russian peacekeepers in the process -- troops who there by agreement between Georgia and Russia. This gave Russia all the reason it needed to pursue a military response.

Oops.

[Javaman]

5. shhhhhh, be quiet will you! don't you see the spin machine is in full tilt???

russia bad, georgia good. That's the play, now stay with it!!! Jeeezzzz...

Nothing here to see citizen, move along.

[fascisthunter]

6. hee hee

:evilgrin:

[Junkdrawer]

23. LOL...Great minds...

Didn't see your post, honest...

[kwenu]

7. Depends. If Florida became aligned with Cuba and attempted to break away from the Union...

would we be justified in sending in troops to restore sovereignty? Or should we just let Florida go? Would it be justified for Cuba (assuming it could) to send troops into Florida in response even though there is no question that Florida isn't Cuban territory?

It's not so easy for me to conclude Georgia was completely wrong but I can conclude that Russia is out of its mind.

[Cooley Hurd]

8. "Or should we just let Florida go?"

Buh-bye!:D

[kwenu]

14. Good point. Pretend it is a different state, say New York wants to be allied with Canada.

[Cooley Hurd]

22. I'd have no qualms about that - at least I could travel overseas...

;)

[kwenu]

28. Gotcha.

[Tempest]

9. If Florida had been governed autonomously for more than a decade

Then the justification to attack to bring them back in line would be difficult to defend.

That's the case with South Ossetia.

[kwenu]

13. And how do you explain the Russian response?

Even if South Ossetia was ruled in an "autonomous" fashion it was clearly in dispute.

[LSK]

17. Russians have been allowed to be there are peacekeepers

Try reading BBC instead of FOXNEWS.

[kwenu]

29. That doesn't explain splitting Georgia in half. I appreciate politics but it never overturns logic

and common sense.

[Tempest]

24. Russia's response was justified under the circumstances

Georgia attacked and killed Russian peacekeepers who were there since the 1991 conflict. Georgia was attacking Russian civilian populations.

Would you have Russia do nothing like Reagan did in Beirut?


I'm not defending Russia, I'm just pointing out they are not the boogeyman some are making them out to be.

[kwenu]

30. They've split Georgia in half!!!! What are you talking about.

[MH1]

35. So you are saying that the use of cluster bombs is justified?

http://hrw.org/english/docs/2008/08/14/georgi19625.htm

(Tbilisi, August 15, 2008) – Human Rights Watch researchers have uncovered evidence that Russian aircraft dropped cluster bombs in populated areas in Georgia, killing at least 11 civilians and injuring dozens, Human Rights Watch said today. Human Rights Watch called upon Russia to immediately stop using cluster bombs, weapons so dangerous to civilians that more than 100 nations have agreed to ban their use.

“Cluster bombs are indiscriminate killers that most nations have agreed to outlaw,” said Marc Garlasco, senior military analyst at Human Rights Watch. “Russia’s use of this weapon is not only deadly to civilians, but also an insult to international efforts to avoid a global humanitarian disaster of the kind caused by landmines.”

Human Rights Watch said Russian aircraft dropped RBK-250 cluster bombs, each containing 30 PTAB 2.5M submunitions, on the town of Ruisi in the Kareli district of Georgia on August 12, 2008. Three civilians were killed and five wounded in the attack. On the same day, a cluster strike in the center of the town of Gori killed at least eight civilians and injured dozens, Human Rights Watch said. Dutch journalist Stan Storimans was among the dead. Israeli journalist Zadok Yehezkeli was seriously wounded and evacuated to Israel for treatment after surgery in Tbilisi. An armored vehicle from the Reuters news agency was perforated with shrapnel from the attack.

This is the first known use of cluster munitions since 2006, during Israel’s war with Hezbollah in Lebanon. Cluster munitions contain dozens or hundreds of smaller submunitions or bomblets. They cause unacceptable humanitarian harm in two ways. First, their broad-area effect kills and injures civilians indiscriminately during strikes. Second, many submunitions do not explode, becoming de facto landmines that cause civilian casualties for months or years to come. In May 2008, 107 nations agreed to a total ban on cluster munitions, but Russia did not participate in the talks.

[LanternWaste]

20. Hasn't the international community

Hasn't the international community, the UN, NATO, et. al. recognized S. Osettia as part and parcel of Georgia despite its almost twenty year independence movement?

From where I sit, it's that recognition that puts a rather sticky wicket into this particular barrel of monkeys...

[kwenu]

31. Thank you. I thought everyone had gone crazy for a minute.

[KharmaTrain]

12. Or How About South Carolina...

They start bombing Federal troops...oh well, I forgot how the rest of that thing played out...

[LSK]

16. did Florida vote to become independent multiple times??????

Were cuban troops allowed in Florida as peacekeepers? Does Florida have a history of seeking independence?

Why even use a bullshit comparison like that?

[kwenu]

32. Why is that a bullshit comparison?

We know full well the U.S. wouldn't allow a U.S. state or territory to secede to another nation. Remember that war? Your responses seem far more at home at the FOX network than mine.

[robertpaulsen]

27. I think Dmitri Orlov has a more interesting analogy.

It may be difficult for some people to grasp why it is that the Abkhaz or the Ossetians do not much fancy suddenly becoming Georgian, so let me offer you a precise analogy. Suppose Los Angeles, California, were to collapse as the USSR once did, and East L.A. quickly moved to declare its independence. Suppose, further, that the 88% of its population that is Hispanic/Latino voted that the other 12% were free to stay on as "guests," provided they only spoke Spanish. The teaching of English were to be forbidden. After some bloody skirmishes, East L.A. split up into ethnic enclaves. Then some foreign government (say, Russian, or Chinese) stepped in and started shipping in weapons and providing training to the Latino faction, in support of their efforts to restore East L.A.'s "territorial integrity." As a non-Hispanic resident of East L.A., would you then (1) run and hide, (2) stay and fight, or (3) pick up a copy of "Spanish for Dummies" and start cramming?

The Abkhaz and the South Ossetians have made their preference very clear by applying for and being issued with a Russian passport. That's right, the majority of the present native population of these two "separatist enclaves" are bona fide citizens of the Russian Federation with all the privileges appertaining thereto. Lacking any other options, they are happy to accept protection from Russia, use Russian as their lingua franca, and fight for their right to be rid of Georgians once and for all. One of the privileges of being a Russian citizen at this stage, when Russia has recovered from its political and economic woes following the Soviet collapse, is that if some foreign entity comes and shells a settlement full of Russian citizens, you can be sure that Russia will open one amazingly huge can of whoop-ass on whoever it feels is responsible. Add to that the atrocities allegedly perpetrated by the Georgian forces, such as finishing off wounded Russian peacekeepers, and you can see why the normally shy and reticent Russian army might get behind the idea of making sure Georgia no longer poses a military threat to anyone. The Georgians have really done it to themselves this time, and we should all feel very sorry for them. They are not evil people, just incredibly misguided by their horrible national politicians. The West, and the US in particular, bear responsibility for enabling this bloodbath by providing them with arms, training, and encouraging them to fight for their "territorial integrity."

This, it will no doubt turn out, was the wrong thing to do. The term "Georgia's territorial integrity" has been bantered about and proffered lamely as an excuse for an untenable status quo for almost two decades now, with poor results. In the meantime, the territorial integrity of another semi-defunct state, Serbia has been sacrificed on the altar of geopolitics. Kosovo, which is Serbia's historical homeland, has been cleansed of Serbians, and alienated from Serbia proper. For those who are vague on the details of that conflict, here is a summary. Kosovo became majority-Albanian due to Albanians' higher birth rate. The Albanians then formed Kosovo Liberation Army, which fought Serbians for independence and lost. Albanians then fled en masse to Albania. The US and NATO then intervened, bombed Kosovo and Serbia, repatriated the refugees, and turned Kosovo into a UN protectorate. The next step from the West's point of view is to recognize Kosovo's independence, taking it away from Serbia forever.

If Kosovo is to Serbia as Abkhazia and South Ossetia are to Georgia, what, you might ask, is the key difference that mandates a different outcome for the latter? Well, there are quite a few (neither is Georgia's historical homeland, both fought for independence and won, both are populated by indigenous tribes rather than newcomers from across the border), but the most salient seems to be this one: Serbia, Abkhazia, and South Ossetia are all BAD (aligned with Moscow) while Georgia is GOOD (aligned with the West and US, and wants to join NATO). Morality, which, I am sure, underpins Western and US foreign policy, dictates that the bad be punished, and the good rewarded. I submit to you that such self-serving logic is a political dead end, and that if senseless bloodshed is to be stopped and peace is to be restored to the Caucasus, Western and US leaders will have to activate several additional brain cells, and stop mindlessly repeating the meaningless phrase "Georgia's territorial integrity."

http://cluborlov.blogspot.com/2008/08/trouble-with-georgia.html

[kwenu]

34. Okay so I guess a territorial dispute justifies not only overtaking the disputed

territory but also destroying the opponent and changing their government. I'm not saying Georgia is a saint by any means but this response now seems Iraq-ish to me.

[ihavenobias]

15. The president of Georgia was on Glenn Beck's show the other night

And Beck was nodding and agreeing quite a bit.

I'm not suggesting that means anything in and of itself, but I am adding it to the scale.

[gatorboy]

18. Not only that. They lied about attack ahead of time.

http://www.reuters.com/article/worldNews/idUSL563909920080805?pageNumber=1&virtualBrandChannel=0

Tue Aug 5, 2008 2:49pm

AVNEVI, Georgia (Reuters) - Georgia on Tuesday denied preparing for war in its breakaway South Ossetia region following deadly weekend clashes that have raised fears of a new war in the Caucasus.

Russia said it would not be indifferent if there was further violence on its border, escalating a war of words in a region where Moscow and the West are vying for influence over vital energy transit routes.

"If events develop according to the worst-case violence scenario, Russia will not allow itself to remain indifferent, considering that Russian citizens live in South Ossetia, particularly in the conflict zone," Interfax news agency quoted Russian special ambassador Yuri Popov as saying.

But Georgia rejected accusations of indiscriminate shelling of Ossetian-held areas over the weekend, and denied it was preparing for conflict.

-----------------------------------------------------

And as someone mentioned in another thread, we have advisors in Georgia. So not only did they attack; we most likely knew about it ahead of time.

[INDIA]

19. I came up with an analogy regarding the Georgia/Russia situation, tell me where I'm wrong here.

You're at the playground with your child. Another child comes up to your kid and punches him in the face. The two get into a minor scrap.

Most parents would separate the two kids and find the other kids parents to tell them what happened in a mature, adult like manner.

YOU, (if you were Russia), instead knock the other little kid down and beat him to a bloody pulp. When he runs home crying, you follow him there, light his house on fire, wreck the place, and beat him up some more. You then sit down on his couch, fix yourself a sandwich, and refuse to leave while his parents protest loudly but do absolutely nothing.

Yeah, I was a little high when I came up with that :) ...but I think it works. Thoughts? I think it counters your "well they threw the first punch" argument.

[Junkdrawer]

21. Shhh...you're going to spoil the hard work of thousands of propagandists...

in the media and right here on DU with that kind of "truth talk".

Get with it. Russia is evil. End of discussion.

[Disturbed]

26. Pat Buchanan explaining the Georgia/Russia situation

Once in awhile he is correct.


http://www.realclearpolitics.com/printpage/?url=http://...

[dorkulon]

36. link doesn't work.

[DU GrovelBot]

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