McCrude said HOMESCHOOLING works....My questions is: How WELL does it work??

[opihimoimoi]

Out of every 1000 homes....how many are ready to face the world when graduated? I really wonder about this cause i question this...

I cannot believe those 1000 homes gonna produce better students overall...

Are there objective tests available/taken?

[mduffy31]

1. I don't know how

My mother was a teacher and had to have a college degree to do it. Saying that just anyone can be a teacher is the same as handing someone a hypodermic needle and telling them that they could do my job (nurse) without training or education.

[opihimoimoi]

2. OOpps...I ignorantly thought anyone could homeschool thus my post

Now I can see it working if a certified teacher/person is the home schooler....

[Jack_DeLeon]

4. Anyone can teach...

some are just better at it than others.

There is a big difference between teaching and nursing. Nursing you need actual knowledge of a specific subject, to teach you just need to know about something.

[MadHound]

8. Shows how much you know about teaching

You not only have to know your subject(or as you so charmingly put it, "know about something"), you have to know how to impart that knowledge to your students in the most effective manner for them to learn. This involves the knowledge of child or adolescent development, knowing how to motivate your students, and knowing how to deal with the individual differences in learning styles, among many other things.

Sorry, but simple knowledge of subject matter doesn't a teacher make. Too many people think that's all that goes into teaching and completely discount the pedagogical knowledge and ability that ones needs to have in order to impart that knowledge of the subject matter. If I had a dime for every wonderful PhD. who thought that their subject knowledge meant that they could teach, I would be rich. Inevitably these PhD.'s, though great in knowing their subject simply can't teach.

You've got to not only your subject matter but also what goes into being an effective teacher. If you don't know the latter, the former simply doesn't matter since you can't impart your knowledge in an effective manner.

[kitfalbo]

11. eh.

System doesn't allow effective teachers.

1) In class rooms of 20+ I've never noticed teachers having the time to know their subjects or to have the time to deal with differences in learning styles or those who are difficult to motivate. They don't have the extra time for the extra students. So some always get abandoned.

2) Some states like Texas you have to teach what they tell you to teach with little or no flexibility. The flexibility that is there is choosing what movie to watch when they are gone. I've known substitutes who had to watch bill and Ted's bogus journey the first half a good six times.

Different states have different levels of rigidness which can be good or bad. I have yet to meet any magical public school teacher who does things as well as you imply they can be done in the current system.

[Jack_DeLeon]

81. You didnt disprove my point...

anyone can teach, some are just better than others.

We all learn stuff from people who arent teachers. Yes its suboptimal when people teaching dont know all the nuances of how to be an effective teacher but its done everyday almost everywhere outside in the real world. Sometimes its even happens in our school systems.

[bean fidhleir]

102. There is no teaching, there is only learning.

Nobody "delivers a lecture". The best they can do is ship it.

[Fireweed247]

49. My husband's coworker went to public school and cannot do times tables

She is getting ready to start nursing school...does this worry anyone else?

[opihimoimoi]

60. If they cannot compute...they cannot know when someone is cheating them

Math is one of the Basics in our Society

[DebJ]

91. You must have had some really low-grade teachers if this is

your concept of teaching. To effectively teach, LEARNING has to occur. Knowing something and teaching it are two different things. And gee, 'something' sounds like it doesn't matter what 'something' is.

[Ilsa]

93. I couldn't disagree more. Others here have given good reasons.

I'm a nurse, and a big part of my responsibility as a nurse is teaching. Teaching effectively isn't as simple as repeating facts to the student. HAving the facts to teach is only the first step.

[karynnj]

80. There are ways to do it

Many colleges have online "high schools" - IU is one that does. The homeschooled kid signs up for classes, gets books and materials that teach them, they submit homework and take tests proctored at the local school or library. I know a kid who did this after an illness in her sophomore year made it impossible to complete the first semester in time to take the second semester. So she lost a year.

She did her remaining high school via homeschooling, though she opted to take her foreign language courses at the county college. (She had previously tested high enough to do so.) Gradually she opted to take intro classes in place of the corresponding high school classes. She did all the home schooled classes independently, except for math which her mother taught her.

She was accepted into college based on an ACT composite that placed her in the top 3% and SATs that were each in the high 80 percentiles. She also had As in all her county college classes.

It can be done but it takes commitment. Was she prepared for college - she actually - from the moment she started to teach herself from the materials, taking responsibility to really know it was functioning as you would want a college student to function.

Is the normal way easier - yes, but this honors student had a problem with being a year behind. Could anyone do this - likely not.

[Jack_DeLeon]

3. In general it probably works better than your typical inner city school...

In many cases probably better that your average public school, althought not as good as going to a more expensive private school.

But thats just my wild ass guess.

[ColbertWatcher]

5. Wrong question: why does the GOP want to privatize schools?

Are they pushing privatization (and vouchers) because they will profit from it?

How many will they benefit from pushing this agenda?

Most importantly: who asked them to Enron the public school system that they've worked to systematically destroy over the past few decades?

[opihimoimoi]

6. Thank you...its those sinister conniving GOP guys again...??

:toast:

[JerseygirlCT]

51. They'd like to privatize everything. It's Norquist's old saw

about making gov't so small he could drown it in a bathtub.

[opihimoimoi]

68. The Old way of thinking...these are times when new and fresh ideas leading to

Advancing the Society are sorely needed

McClone is old hat...same ole stories, nothing really new...living in the Past he is....we all know peeps like him...same ole POW story

Same ole sand story

same ole policies of War and Machoism....same ole pity card

same ole BS CRAP

We all went to bars and saw this over and over....Its a place where they all know your name....Perfect for the Same story crowd...

[JerseygirlCT]

69. Yup! nt

[wellstone dem]

7. I think the name of this homeschooling "how to" book says it all....

"Homeschooling for Dummies"


I saw this recently on the dashboard of a truck. It was a shake my head moment.

[opihimoimoi]

15. So they teaching dummies to be teachers??? or are Dummies the students??? either way....

:toast:

[cobalt1999]

9. If you have intelligent parents that learn how to teach, then it works well.

The problem is most home-schooling is done by fundies who lack the IQ to even understand the topics they are supposed to be teaching.

I know parents that raised their kids while sailing the world (boat-schooling?), both parents are college graduates and the kids were doing work well beyond their grade level. Both kids have since graduated college and one is in graduate school. So, it can work well.

[JHB]

32. The problem with the fundies isn't the IQ...

...it's the ideological blinders.

[opihimoimoi]

42. Yup...no Objectivity...no Reality

The kids would be missing out a LOT

[kitfalbo]

10. Eh.

It's more the student's choice than the parents on how well it works. Certain personality types just don't work well for public schools.

Public schools also promote enough inaccurate or misleading information on their own. Some of those history books are just awful.

If your child is an aggressor or a victim in many of the more dangerous aspects of the public school culture then it might be wise to consider home schooling.

[jakem]

18. Reversed.

'Certain personality types' are not well-served by the schools.

[opihimoimoi]

22. The student is only 1/2 of the equation...are the parents qualied?

Not every parent can teach....

[goddess40]

12. Depends on many factors, first is the reason behind it.

Many home school because of religious reasons, which I think is BS. If your religion is so out there that it can't stand any school ground comparisons then you have some serious head issues.

Of those that do home school many do a great job but they do it at the expense of those that have less then honest motives for home schooling. The states all have there own laws about home schooling, WI has a one page form the parents sign releasing the state of any responsibility for the education and well being of their children. Few states, if any, require the state to test or examine these kids in any way. These laws make it easy for child abusers/neglecter's to avoid detection.

I know four children that are getting little in the way of education because their parents have decided public schools are the devils playground. Unfortunately, they are unqualified and unmotivated to teach their children. One of which is a special needs child and another that is in desperate need of speech therapy. Who is responsible for these children when they reach 18 and have little education?

When I ask legislatures to change the laws about homeschooling they say the lobby is too strong. When I ask home schoolers to allow the change they basically say "screw you". They don't feel the need to protect any child but their own, funny thing is most of them are pro-life. Which once again shows that pro-life all to often really means pro-fetus and anti-woman.

[opihimoimoi]

19. Yup...thats the Down Side of it I guess...slipping through the cracks

and the kids end up unable to earn their potential unless gifted in something.

The States should address this to ensure the kids at east pass a GED thingy...

[Bettie]

97. My brother and SIL are this type of home schoolers

They have two little girls and they do "Biblical Home Schooling" that they get from their fundie church.

I spoke to my SIL about it and her tenets are that children don't need any text but the Bible to learn all they need in life. She also believes that the Florida public schools are run by Satanists.

Her children are not permitted to even speak with people of different religious traditions (and are not allowed to spend time with my children either, since we're not of their church) and don't have to learn math or science except as taught from the Bible.

I pointed out to her that her kids are a. not receiving a real education and b. will not have the necessary life skills to survive in the wide world.

Her answer: they're girls, so they will be married and have kids by the time they are 18, their husbands will take care of them.

Sad...just sad.

[goddess40]

98. I have a sister with four kids - so between us we know 6 children not being educated

and that just on this small web site! My sisters excuse is the same as your brother and SIL. Except they now have a boy who is in dire need of speech therapy and won't get it. I don't know what there plan is for him, except he's bright and really wants to learn - he was devastated when he found out he wasn't going to school.

They have an older daughter that did get some education and is struggling, but she's hard working and putting herself through college. She land on her feet, her parents just made it much harder than it should have been.

[Bennyboy]

13. My step son was homeschooled. THE BIGGEST JOKE EVER!

It was an easy way for him to get his diploma without working or having to fit in. After he graduated from HS, I asked him and his friends (all homeschooled) a few simple questions and they could not answer them. They also could not operate the phone book.

For some parents, I get it, they really want their kids to get the type of education they cannot get i public school. But for the ones I know it was an easy way out of parenting and dicipline.

[opihimoimoi]

17. Ask any kid in general what is 7x9 and only about 40 to 50 % will offer the correct answer

There are pockets of knowledge but in general...esp in Hawaii, the knowledge of simple math is staggeringly low.

[Bennyboy]

29. I am talking simple basic things (and not math)

Three branches of Gov't.
5 American authors
stuff like that.

These kids were idiots. My stepson playd video games from the AM to the late PM. the school work he did amounted to less than one hours work every two weeks.

[opihimoimoi]

31. The poor thing...he gonna have a rough time in Life....gonna miss a lot of jokes even...

[MedleyMisty]

39. Hmm - so those hardcore raiders in WoW who were on all the time

and didn't seem to have jobs or school may have been home schoolers? Hmm.

[LeftyMom]

103. Haven't you said before he was in a public "independent study" program?

Those are a scam- the school gets full funding with almost no interaction with the kid.

And as any homeschooler will tell you, public programs are not homeschooling.

[theboss]

26. So...that means they are just as dumb as anyone else

My limited experience with home schoolers is that they tend to be really well-versed in one or two subjects, lacking in others, and somewhat socially awkward.

Which makes them perfect for the IT field.

[Lorien]

27. I know a few kids like that

they had so many discipline problems at school that the parents wanted to home school them-so they ended up as teens who simply can't function in society.

I also know a family of Right Wingers who home school their five children. They do this to avoid having their kids exposed to evolution and non-Christians. I visited the house one day, and there was a huge sign in the "classroom". It said "Love and Obey: GOD > Daddy> mommy (in that order). Everything there was about Christianity, not science, English, history, math... I wondered how in the hell these kids could end up with any kind of diploma, and what kinds of jobs would they be prepared for? (No jobs for the girls, obviously; they were expected to become child bearing housewives. But what if they needed to balance a checkbook-or became widows)?

[opihimoimoi]

30. The direction our our Nation is taking a bad turn if too many homeschools

exist for the purps of avoiding EVOLUTION and preaching obedience....this is bad start....

[Lorien]

35. George H. W. Bush said that the government should work to keep us all

"fat, dumb and happy". They seem to be achieving their ends with a large segment of the population.

[opihimoimoi]

41. That is pathetic and sad,,,but then thats what he is...

[Progressive_In_NC]

55. My son, who is homeschooled has a friend over this week who is wating for public school to start

My son is 8 starting 3rd grade, and is reading on a seventh grade level and working from a fifth grade math book. His little public school friend (whose mom is a teacher) couldn't do one math problem with him this morning.

Thankfully, before she chose to stay home with the kids, my wife was a school teacher as well of middle school hearing impaired students. She is highly qualified, and my son will most likely be in the community college heavily by the time he is in early high school.

The public schools in Raleigh had no interest in serving him his first two years. He finished his worksheets in 5 minutes and the nsat there by himself for 30 minutes while the other students finished. The child was bored stiff out of his mind in a public school environment.

Seems to me that public schools role is to keep them fat dumb and happy.

[opihimoimoi]

61. Exactly...thats what it seems, thats what they are de facto producing...no wonder

we lose our jobs....to overseas....too dumb and too spoiled...adicted to FUN is the main distraction....

[opihimoimoi]

57. But in their zeal to dumb us down...unintended consequences...lost jobs to overseas markets to the

point of Harming our Econ....now a recesseion...tomorrow a Depression....we are dangerously close....

[JeanGrey]

37. That's funny - I've never met a homeschooled kid like that.

My best friend homeschooled all three of hers and they all went to college on academic scholarships.

Imagine that!

[opihimoimoi]

43. Exceptional...if only 90 % were like that...

Your best friend did a marvekous job...

[JeanGrey]

78. She did and she only has a High School diploma - didn't

go to college. All three did well.

[SmokingJacket]

14. It can work great -- it can also stink.

Totally depends on the situation. Furthermore, everyone knows this. There's no reason it should even be up for debate.

The best solution is to have a strong public school system, and allow people to opt out, with a certain amount of oversight.

[opihimoimoi]

16. yes....I can see it...there are times and sits to justify but for the most part

the kids should have qualied teachers...

Well said

:toast:

[SmokingJacket]

24. What bugs me is the pro-homeschool rhetoric that implies

we need to get rid of public schools, that parents *always* do a better job than "gubmint."

I know a lot of people who homeschool, and who do a great job, but it pisses me off to no end when they start sending around their anti-public-school garbage. See John Taylor Gatto. Fact is, without public schools, a handful of lucky children with devoted and educated parents would get stellar, world-class educations. And many, many, many children would end up illiterate.

Public schools -- as flawed as they are -- are vital to our democracy (such as it is). They can be improved, and we should be working toward that instead of siphoning off the kids of the fortunate and conscientious parents and leaving the public schools to the children of the poor, disabled, uneducated, and disorganized.

(If my own kids were truly suffering in their public schools, I would of course have no choice but to home school -- I wouldn't sacrfice my kids on the altar of my idealism. As it is, I've had to supplement their educations now and then. So I think there should always be the option to do it.)

[opihimoimoi]

28. There has to be other better ways to educ our children...but I see no

real effort to do so....this is pathetic...

Public schools should be adequately funded and supported....this we know...but are they? only in a few areas do we see it....Sadly we watch our graduates dumbed down year after year....ask employers who do the hiring.....its sad out there...

[Hubert Flottz]

20. Them bible thumpers teach the kids how to pick up snakes

when they are very young...normal kids don't learn to do that till they're in the 10th grade!

I just wonder why that preacher didn't ask McPimp about him offering up Cindy to the outlaw bikers about a week ago?

[opihimoimoi]

21. McPimp was trying to appease the WH GOD with a sacrifice of the Virgin Blonde to those BIKERS?

This is the stuff of Movies and not of Home Schoolin

Howdy Hubert....you and yer snakes....LOL

:toast:

[Hubert Flottz]

33. I'll tell you a true story about home schooling...

My son's wife was "Home Schooled" by her AMWAY sellin' bible thumper parents and when that gal was 18 she wrote a letter like a third grader would. They used her to provide day care for her younger brothers and sisters is what her schooling amounted to. Turned out too, that her dad, who according to him, was about second in line to Jerry Foulwill RE: mounting the throne beside "The Man Upstairs" had been surfing every porn site on the WWW for years.

I think I'll look after my own soul judging from what I've seen in a lifetime of being around those so called people who have been "reborn." Hatched is more like it!

[opihimoimoi]

44. the poor thing....bring her up to snuff...

If public school pumped out those numbers and quality...it would mean jobs would be shipped outta the country....oops

[Thothmes]

84. As you already know, the public schools turn out these

types of graduates in large numbers. We routinely get job applicants that cannot read basic instructions written at the 5th grade level. They cannot measure an item to within 1/16th inch with a tape measure. The cannot add/subtract/divide basic fractions. None of this stuff is high tech. We manufacture bags of paper, woven plastic and burlap. A very sad commentary on the effectiveness of the local school district.

[DebJ]

92. and on their parents. Everyone always completely ignores the#1

factor in the successful education of a child is the parents. Always has been.

[Thothmes]

100. and always be.

[seabeyond]

23. my rw brother who fears public school and has been conditioned by right homed school daughter

for two years. he has tried three different programs and all have failed her. now here she sits. should be in 10th grade, and he doubts he can get her into public or private and has no other homeschool to try.

this guy values education and regardless of my telling him the kick ass education my "genius" level son is getting in public school, he refuses info and continues to harp the rw bullshit about our horrible educational system and his daughter sits at beginning of school year fucked

my one experience up front with homeschool

personally, i see it as a failure and not nearly what a public school can offer in education. lots of homeschooling in fundie land

[opihimoimoi]

25. I think this might be part of a National Dumbing Down effort

to produce what we fear....undereducated kids...easier to Fool so the Masters can Rule

[Fireweed247]

48. McCain and Bush went to public school

Public schools are part of a national dumbing down effort.

[opihimoimoi]

58. From the looks of it...it sure seems that way

:toast:

[seabeyond]

86. i am so tired of these stupid uninformed comments. talk about dumbing down

comments like these are feeding the rw agenda of cutting out the public school and getting their corprate run, private christian schools funded. and then we will really see the dumbing down and the lack of education in this nation.

my children even at 10 could probably kick adults ass academically and intellectually here on du. the kids get an excellent education way beyond what we had as kids. it has a lot to do with the environment and the parents of the children too. they have a part in their childrens life.

the children have to make a choice to learn. the opportunity is there. no one can make them. unfortunately there are too many parents that dont put forth the effort. hardly the schools fault. absolutely the parents and childrens ownership

[jmowreader]

101. Bush went to exclusive private schools

Please don't denigrate the public school infrastructure in this country by falsely accusing it of turning out George W. Bush.

But check it out: Upthread we discussed the need to know how to teach if you want to successfully homeschool. Not so. Christian bookstores are full of homeschool curricula. You spend many dollars on this massive collection of materials (Pensacola Christian College and Bob Jones University are major players in this market--PCC publishes A Beka Book; BJU publishes as Bob Jones University Press), do exactly what it tells you to do, and you can be a Real Homeschool Teacher!

[Nikki Stone1]

34. It depends on the parents, but homeschooling can be much better than public school

provided that the parents have knowledge (or know how to get it) and that the stay at home parent (usually the mother) is not abusive. There are many homeschoolers who belong to groups where they pool knowledge and information.

My main issue with homeschooling (other than abusive or uneducated parents) is social. Eventually, kids need to learn to survive in a large group. They need to learn basic emotional and political skills to both interact and get what they need from people. They also need to come face to face with social challenges (like peer pressure and bullies) to become strong and be able to handle adult life. If the homeschooled kid remains at home or with a very small group of friends, the kid never learns how to deal with major social challenges.

[Progressive_In_NC]

56. Our kids have classes at the Home School Co-op with other kids

They have home school sports, guitar lessons, violin lessons; science and history classes outside the home. My son who is eight, speaks to adults with respect. His public school friends walk around shooting at things with thier fingers and talking about their "wieners".

My kids know how to interact with smaller kids with kindness, and not derision, and they can hold a conversation with a high schooler without much effort. And believe it or not, my eight year old and five year old play together without fighting. They never did that when my son was leaving every day for two years to go to school.

Now their public school friends are left 28 of them to one or two adults all day and have no clue how to interact with adults or older kids and tend to spend their time operating on the lowest common level for their age group.

But I do see your point about bullies and peer pressure, it will come up eventually.

[opihimoimoi]

75. The early years are the best for development in Social behavior

This, IMHO, is the place to renew our Society into advancing rather than stagnating

[JeanGrey]

36. In every case I've seen it works very well.

[melm00se]

38. as with anything

it all depends upon the situation, personalities and skills involved.

Is home schooling for everyone? no
Should it be available? yes

A quick google search popped up this study:

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qa3955/is_200404/ai_n9383889/pg_1

and the down and dirty findings where:

<*>No significant difference in first-year grade point averages
<*>No significant difference in college retention during their first-year (fall to spring semester)
<*>No significant difference in first-year credit hours earned
<*>No significant difference in the ACT Composite scores
<*>No significant difference in the ACT English test scores
<*>No significant difference in the ACT Mathematics test
<*>No significant difference in the ACT Reading test scores
<*>No significant difference in the ACT Science Reasoning test scores
<*>No correlation between the variables: first-year grade point average, first year earned credit hours, first-year retention, and the ACT Composite test score


As to the rightwing wanting to privatize schools, i am not sure that is the main goal. My B-I-L (a bright guy, who i don't always agree with) explained it thusly (and please this is his explanation not mine and I am not going to go back and argue the point with him so just take it as a point of information):

Someone pays of school taxes and yet school scores and attainment have been steadily dropping off, the responsiveness of the teachers and school administration is headed in the same direction and this has been going on regardless to the change in elected school boards.

The normal reaction would be to put kids in a private school where that administration provides a course of instruction and results more in line with the parents expectation.

Where by BIL lives, the cost of private schools is not insignificant (high school is $7K/yr) and his school tax is approximately half that ($3K) so, in essence, to send his kid to get an education to the level he expects, actually costs him $10K/year. why can't he get a chance to re-direct that $$ (or a portion) to pay for his kids' schooling? that's what the school tax is for after all.

He gets even more fueled up with the staunch opposition to this idea by the government - he views it as nothing more than the government trying to maintain it's monopolistic (his direct word) hold on a failing education system. (at this point he devolves into nothing but talking points so I tune out).

There are parts of this I agree with: schools keep asking for (and getting) more and more money but there doesn't seem to be any significant impact when it comes to classroom output but taxes are something that any civilized society must have in place.

Back to home schooling:

I am sure that there are people just like my B-I-L who don't like what they see when it comes to the public school system but who can't afford the extra coin needed to send their kids to a private school. So they look for options and they are presented with 2 that they can easily wrap their brain around:

<*>Like any customer - vote with your wallet and take your money and business elsewhere (school vouchers)
<*>Don't have the money? do it yourself. (home schooling)


Now where I live (in the south where there seem to be a lot of home schooling) 2 of my cul de sac neighbors home school. In one case I can't believe it (she is a single mother born again bible thumper type) and the other, I can understand their frustration with the school system: their 2 kids have been in 5 schools in the last 5 years and what was the last straw was the 2 kids, 1 year apart were sent to 2 separate schools - 15 miles apart and they appealed to the school board, given 3 minutes to state their case and were told "no, they are going where we sent them" (and if I was told that, I'd start reviewing all other options available).

[opihimoimoi]

59. Oh Oh It shows its gone generational...underEd parents usually = UnderEd Kids

Damn...its went and gone contagious

[DebJ]

95. Private school students/charter school have parents actively

involved in their kids education. When I was a student in the 60s, parents cared about education and were not concerned with entertaining their children . . . but with educating them instead. Now, parents think that taxes should 'buy' the education, and they don't have to do anything. I had 2 hours of homework every night . . . parents today scream about 30 minutes of homework being cruel (but 4 hours of tv and video games is wonderful).

[kimmylavin]

40. I went to public school.

And I plan to home-school my kids.

The thing is, I went to public school in New Jersey. In the 80's and 90's.
It was a well-funded district that always voted for any increase in funding that the school needed.
The school was fantastic about art and music - still is - had great community involvement, had interesting teachers (one history teacher spent one month each on women's history and black history - his own curriculum! - and a week on the JFK assassination, teaching the larger issue of questioning "official stories".), had a 5-day-a-week physical education program, and had a comprehensive sex ed program, among other things.

The thing is, I couldn't possibly afford to live in that district now.
And most other schools aren't teaching like this - they're not even allowed to!

I now live in a rural California town, and work in a larger city nearby.
I work in a theater/community art center.
And I would say that fully half of the kids I work with are home-schooled.
I've talked with a lot of the parents, and they have various reasons to do so. Most home-school because the public schools are considered "dangerous" around here. Some because they think the younger grade schools are too religious, and some because they think they're not religious enough!

There are a few fundie children who are getting a fairly biased education, but I just imagine that their exposure to a larger world - and even other children not taught the same things - will help them form their own views.
But for the most part, these kids are well-educated, polite, funny, sweet, and talented.
They're also "socialized" (what every person moans my children won't be when I tell them I plan to home-school) because of the place I work.
And it provides them an outlet for creativity, as you can be in Choir, Orchestra, Dance, Drama, the Writer's Group, the Visual Arts Group, and on and on.

I remember a general education writing class I took in my first year of college.
About 1/3 of the students couldn't write a paragraph properly, let alone an essay - and they were in college!

My cousin is a teacher in a Catholic private school in Jersey City, NJ. I love her to death, but the woman does not speak proper English - "youze" and "ain't" are still a part of her vocabulary - and she teaches fourth graders!

I don't think that the issue itself is homeschooling; I think its education in general.
Because the question you asked - how many are ready to face the world when graduated - can easily be asked of public school students and private school students. It all depends on the education they get. As I cannot find in my area a program that I feel would educate my children, I plan to home-school them.

[Trillo]

45. Scientifically it's a good question.

However, testing it may be problematic.

Even though I attended either private or public schools (was not "homeschooled"), all learning that I was able to accomplish in my earlier years, as well as an adult, was absolutely self-learning. Much of it occurred at home, in the privacy of my room, from reading and learning about things in my free time that I was interested in. School was much too distracting for me, focus was never encouraged there, instead distractions reigned supreme, some distractions were quite mean.

My point is that it's very hard to distinguish between what is learned at home versus what is learned at schools, and getting non-biased scientific reportage is likely near impossible. Everyone seems to want to take credit for others acts when things go right, and shift blame and responsibility to others when things go wrong.

[opihimoimoi]

62. If we read about the Myers Briggs Type Indicator...we see there are

The Intuitive Types...they possess a curious mind and often pursue whatever interests them from one Realm to other Realms/Worlds.......over time

this helps in other types such as Thinking, Judging, Sensing, Feeling....etc

Some types are stronger in Solving and others take a laid back view of Life in general...

If ya haven't google Myers Briggs

[Jane Austin]

46. You said the magic word!

If Warren had asked "How?" of any of McCheat's harangues, he could have put a stop to that old fraud with one word.

- We need to build a bunch of nuclear plants. How?

- We're going to win this war. How?

- We need to support Georgia. How?

- We need to lower taxes. How?

- We need school vouchers. How?

- We need to blah, blah, blah . . . . How?

[opihimoimoi]

64. Surely this is not lost to Obamas Team....it will surface at the right time

and it will be in McCrash's Face

:toast: :0)

[DebJ]

96. "we" is anyone but the government, ergo no plans required.

In York Pa, he said that Bill Gates is taking care of 3rd world poverty so that we need not be concerned about extreme poverty as a source for terrorism. And he said the United States invented every thing ever worth inventing, and good old American know-how will solve our energy crises. That is, industry will . . . no government investment or guidance or requirements needed. Yep, like Detroit, who took the 70s oil crisis lesson and created HUMMERS!

[Fireweed247]

47. The homeschool movement began with hippies not fundies

I cannot believe the way that DUers bash homeschooling... have you seen the teenagers getting out of school these days? Lower standards and the 'soft bigotry of low expectations' has our Country graduating people that cannot even do their times tables or write a coherent essay if their life depended on it.

Have Duers seen how the US stands in relation to education in other Countries?

And then have the audacity to diss homeschoolers?

Why is the 'socialization' in school so great? How would adults like to be bullied every day, forced into conformity or forced into a corner alone. Would you go to a work place every day where the people were horrible to you? Why do we force our children to spend their entire youth with people they wouldn't choose to?

School is preparation for a 9-5 job. It is training our children to sit on their ass 8 hours a day and do what they are told.

My children are young, and they already know more than I do about Geography and History. They read fast and furiously, I cannot keep them in enough books(one 300+ page book only last a few hours.) They are already doing higher math than many high schoolers and working on their own novels and screen plays. They make video book reports, creative movies and slide show presentations of their reports and biographies. Computers have vastly improved what children can do in education, yet the schools have little time for teaching anything other than typing on it. Why should children waste their entire youth in school just trying to get through, when they could be using their skills and knowledge coupled with their creativity to find who THEY truly are, not just conforming so they are thought of as 'cool' in school. Children have the amazing capacity to create, much more so than adults. Their brains are developing so it is such an important time to fill their minds and challenge them. How much attention to individual children get in school? Most teachers are just trying to get through the day with no major problems.(not their fault)

The dumbing down is happening in the public schools. When Bush started the 'no child left behind' it gave the signal for his Orwellian doublespeak meaning time to ruin public education. This is purposeful and is happening right under everyone's noses. It only takes one generation and we are quickly heading to idiocracy.

[Sanctified]

53. There it goes again, someone bringing up facts when it's all supposed to be about emotions.

I homeschool my children and we participate in homeschool groups and I have never met a single Christian Fundamentalist Parent who homeschools. Every parent I meet is either a Hippie or the child of a Hippie but maybe that's just because I live in Oregon. Anyways my children have lots of friends who are Public and Private schooled all of them are great kids but when it comes to intellect and athletics not one of them stands a chance against my children.

[opihimoimoi]

72. CONGRATS TO BEING A GOOD TEACHER..from what I see, you are rare

Most HomeSchooled kids are Lacking...all too many drastically so....slow on math, etc....

[Sanctified]

77. Homeschool children usually excel in Math, in fact they score higher on College Entrance Exams

in Math over non-homeschooled children.

[Kitty Herder]

63. Great reply. If I ever have kids (not likely), I'd love to be able to homeschool them.

I don't think our schools teach children adequately and they certainly don't nourish their minds and souls. School crushes their creativity and curiosity.

It's interesting that I feel that way, considering that the two examples of homeschooling that I've seen in my neighborhood were terrible. One family raised children who can barely read. But I see those two families as example of what NOT to do. There are many examples of homeschooled kids who truly excel, beyond their public school counterparts.

[opihimoimoi]

65. I am not in favor of dumbing down anyone, nor denigrating the concept of HS

All things considered...Its better than Public Schools if the Parents/Tutor is qualified/dedicated/passionate/persistent in the endeavor...

There seems not a Standard in the qualification Dept...some states require very little while others a degree of some sort....with many other states inbetween....

[JerseygirlCT]

50. Totally depends on the teacher

It can work brilliantly if the person taking on the task is intelligent, educated and very, very motivated.

It can be a disaster if those things are missing.

The trick is standards.

[opihimoimoi]

66. Exactly...thank for confirmation...most of us feel that way....

I do....

:toast:

[Kitty Herder]

71. Absolutely.

I know there are many parents who do an excellent job of homeschooling. If I ever have kids, I'd like to homeschool myself.

However, there are two families in my neighborhood who homeschooled their kids and it didn't work out very well. The first family did fine in teaching their kids the basics of reading, writing and arithmetic, but they taught their kids not to believe in evolution and gave them a suspicion of science in general. Their motivation for homeschooling was religious.

The second family is a disaster. They just didn't teach their kids. Their second son (of 10 kids) is my brother's best friend and like another brother to me. But he can't even write a letter. He went to the local community college for a while and the remedial math that was offered was over his head. He's smart, but completely uneducated. His parents completely failed him. Along with his numerous brothers and sisters. At least he's a charming, funny guy. Those characteristics have enabled him to get and keep jobs. His parents' motivation for homeschooling? When the three oldest first went to elementary school, the other kids were cruel to them because their parents dressed them in dirty, hand-me-downs and didn't bathe them very often. (These people aren't poor, just cheap and lazy.) So rather than buy them decent clothes and keep them clean, they pulled them out of school. At least the oldest three had a few years of elementary school under their belts. I dread to think how the little ones will fare. They just run around the neighborhood all day long.

[opihimoimoi]

73. What have we done to ourselves??? This is a recipe for disaster

OMG...."they just run around the neighborhood all day long...."

Its all so predictable.....Damn

[NNN0LHI]

52. The problem is by the time someone figures out they aren't qualified to teach its too late

The kids have lost their most formative years to trying to learn from idiots in these cases.

Don

[opihimoimoi]

67. In those cases...its pathetically sad...lodt opportunites begin with EDUCATION

If you prepare....You can go Places...if not....you find ways to skate free on welfare, theft, cheating, Lying....become Cronies

[melm00se]

54. if you want to really see why some folks want to

home school their kids, look at this article:
http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/dn/latestnews/stories/081608dnmetdisdgrading.4627fe2.html


AT A GLANCE: Grading changes

•Homework grades should be given only when the grades will "raise a student's average, not lower it."

•Teachers must accept overdue assignments, and their principal will decide whether students are to be penalized for missing deadlines.

•Students who flunk tests can retake the exam and keep the higher grade.

•Teachers cannot give a zero on an assignment unless they call parents and make "efforts to assist students in completing the work."

•High school teachers who fail more than 20 percent of their students will need to develop a professional improvement plan and will be monitored by their principals. For middle school the rate is 15 percent; for elementary it's 10 percent.

[opihimoimoi]

70. OH Oh ...whacha gonna do? Damned if ya try and Damned if ya don't

The Magic Pill for Ed is yet to be developed....not even discussed cept for minor attempts.....

This is sad for a Nation doing Space Projects...

[carlyhippy]

74. I was thinking of homeschooling my kid when he was young..

he seemed to understand the assignments when I explained it to him better than when the teachers would explain to him. We never did go through with it, I have to work, and it would have been very difficult to teach and hold down a job.

The schools here are o.k. I guess. I would have loved to put him in a private school setting, but no such thing in this area. The problem with our school system is there are alot of kids who do not want to be at school or don't want to learn or just don't care; the teachers have to discipline them and the time it takes away from the kids who are there actually trying to learn something.

[opihimoimoi]

76. I guess an after school support thing would likely work...

This Nation had better address this soon....our brain drain will continue until we reach a disaster....

[Donald Ian Rankin]

79. *If* it's done well, probably very well, but it's very hard to measure.

You can't just compare results of home-schooled and non-home-schooled children, because home schooled children won't be a representative sample.

But I'd be amazed if children didn't do better 1-1 with a competent educator than 30-1.

How much training/ability a parent needs to do better than a school, I don't know, though.

[JCMach1]

82. What about accountability and No Child Left Behind

When it comes to homeschooling!?

[Progressive_In_NC]

85. At our house we take two tests every year that we pay for

And we keep the tests on record. My wife is a huge public school advocate and sees the value in testing our children to make sure they are keeping up.

But when one of your children is almost three grade levels ahead of public schools, and the other has pretty severe Sensory Processing Disorder, public school is not the best place for them to be at this stage of their lives.

[JCMach1]

89. My only argument is these should be mandated for all homeschoolers

[Progressive_In_NC]

104. I think we agree

We wouldn't pony up the $250 bucks in testing and administrative fees per kid every year if we didn't :).

[MiniMe]

83. So, would school vouchers count as an entitlement program?

[Anexio]

87. Reply

"My questions is: How WELL does it work??"

Wouldn't homeschooling have to produce results at or better than traditional public schools to be better?

That shouldn't be too hard to do.

I interview around 10-15 high school graduates a month for entry level labor jobs at my company. My first question after I finish thanking them for coming in is actually a request. I ask them to read the first paragraph of Treasure Island by Robert Lewis Stephenson. Almost every single person is not able to get through the entire paragraph without stuttering, mispronouncing and in many cases, simply giving up in frustration. "I cant do this, it's stupid.", is a phrase I here more often than not.

When I get an applicant that reads though the paragraph without problem I'll glance at their application and I'll see that they were home schooled.

What does that tell you?

[LWolf]

88. Depends on the quality of what happens at home.

It can be excellent, or it can nurture ignorance.

There are no quality controls.

[DebJ]

90. My understanding is that the charter schools don't have to meet

the same requirements as the public schools. So what could possibly be asked of home schooling?

I will be student teaching in the fall. I am working to be certified in Social Studies for grades 7-12. Just trying to grasp all of Social Studies, as a full-time teacher with a rabid interest, is a challenge no one can ever meet. How could I teach science? Do home schoolers get chemistry labs? Regularly? How could I teach advanced mathmatics????

I just can't imagine depriving my child of a genuine education by an enthusiastic teacher specializing in their own area of interest.

Sorry to say, I just found out that Pennsylvania is changing middle school certification, so that middle school teachers will be certified in all areas: science, math, social studies, etc. All generalists. No enthusiasm. Down-grading expertise. But hey, that way you can chop out a teacher here and there and crowd more kids into the same classroom since every one will be equally 'qualified.'

The dumbing down of America continues, full-speed ahead. What the hell are they thinking? They are not.

[Ilsa]

94. This is also about driving mothers out of the work force and back home

to teach their kids. I'm certain of it. McCain, in his past, must have had some women as supervisors and he didn't like it.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

99. Depends on who's doing it, why, and how

Some relatives of my stepfather are doing it because they're crazy even by the fundamentalist standards. Last time I saw them, the 10-year-old was in "second grade."

Some parents who do it are control freaks, the extreme form of helicopter parent.

On the other hand, if you have a bright child who is miserable in a public school run by an idiotic schoolboard, and you yourself are well-educated, you may be able to provide a highly enriched curriculum.

I must say that I'm GLAD I wasn't homeschooled, even though my school years were miserable. I had a control freak mother, and if I hadn't been able to get out of the house and interact with non-family members for a few hours each day, I would have gone mad.

However, we always had plenty of books in the house. We never spent vacations at some resort. Instead, we drove and always stopped at every historic and scenic site along the way. We were encouraged to attend arts events.

I guess I had public schooling with home enrichment.