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Naturyl (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Aug-18-08 04:47 PM Original message |
The Case for a Guaranteed Minimum Income |
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provis99 (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Aug-18-08 04:56 PM Response to Original message |
1. won't eliminate poverty |
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rucky (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Aug-18-08 05:00 PM Response to Reply #1 |
4. It would if it were tied to a COLA index. |
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dajoki (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Aug-19-08 06:32 PM Response to Reply #4 |
96. It would have to be... |
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Naturyl (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Aug-18-08 05:04 PM Response to Reply #1 |
6. The class recieving the GMI is still far below median income |
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provis99 (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Aug-18-08 05:19 PM Response to Reply #6 |
11. Im not saying to ignore poverty, far from it |
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Naturyl (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Aug-18-08 05:25 PM Response to Reply #11 |
13. I'm not necessarily opposed to that, BUT... |
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JFN1 (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Aug-19-08 11:21 AM Response to Reply #13 |
75. What we really need is a maximum standard |
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Naturyl (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Aug-19-08 03:26 PM Response to Reply #75 |
89. A maximum doesn't do any good without a minimum |
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tavalon (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Aug-21-08 08:15 AM Response to Reply #75 |
118. Unfortunately, on a big scale |
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tavalon (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Aug-21-08 08:13 AM Response to Reply #13 |
117. I agree that there are far less practicing hippies than in the 60s, |
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MiniMe (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Aug-19-08 06:56 AM Response to Reply #1 |
62. It also depends on how you spend it, If a person spends unwisely, they |
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Naturyl (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Aug-19-08 03:51 PM Response to Reply #62 |
91. Not true. Poverty is defined solely by income level. |
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tavalon (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Aug-21-08 08:28 AM Response to Reply #91 |
119. Exactly! |
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Dorian Gray (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Wed Aug-20-08 08:04 AM Response to Reply #1 |
106. I have to admit |
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phantom power (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Aug-18-08 04:57 PM Response to Original message |
2. Heh. We can't even pass a progressive income tax... |
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Naturyl (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Aug-18-08 05:00 PM Response to Reply #2 |
3. Agreed, but can it hurt to throw it out there? |
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phantom power (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Aug-18-08 05:05 PM Response to Reply #3 |
7. But of course... |
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Redbear (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Aug-18-08 05:04 PM Response to Original message |
5. We already have a smaller scale negative income tax model |
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Naturyl (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Aug-18-08 05:05 PM Response to Reply #5 |
8. It could be a start. I'd definitely support it as a first step. (n/t) |
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DailyGrind51 (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Aug-18-08 05:12 PM Response to Original message |
9. This idea was even favored by Barry Goldwater's adviser! |
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Naturyl (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Aug-18-08 05:22 PM Response to Reply #9 |
12. Yes. Arch-libertarian Milton Friedman also supported it |
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DailyGrind51 (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Aug-18-08 05:26 PM Response to Reply #12 |
14. People who think long-term can arrive at common conclusions, |
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Naturyl (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Aug-18-08 05:39 PM Response to Reply #14 |
20. Indeed. And "undeserving" is a pretty debatable term to begin with |
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DailyGrind51 (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Aug-18-08 05:57 PM Response to Reply #20 |
22. Thank you for the initial post! |
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Naturyl (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Aug-18-08 06:18 PM Response to Reply #22 |
23. Yes, exactly |
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bobbolink (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Aug-18-08 08:04 PM Response to Reply #23 |
29. The problem is that we haven't worked to develop an effective counter to it. |
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DailyGrind51 (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Aug-19-08 12:59 PM Response to Reply #23 |
82. It wasn't until Rand, that it became "immoral" to tax the rich to apy for |
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tavalon (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Aug-21-08 08:32 AM Response to Reply #20 |
120. Imagine |
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Cleita (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Aug-18-08 05:16 PM Response to Original message |
10. I'm all for it, but good luck trying to get people, who have been brainwashed |
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Naturyl (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Aug-18-08 05:30 PM Response to Reply #10 |
16. Tell me about it, lol |
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tavalon (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Aug-21-08 08:34 AM Response to Reply #16 |
121. I just popped over to the website on your profile |
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DailyGrind51 (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Wed Aug-20-08 08:01 AM Response to Reply #10 |
105. A new "Great Depression" followed by an FDR-like president would deprogram them! |
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unblock (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Aug-18-08 05:27 PM Response to Original message |
15. funny thing is, actual businesspeople should love this |
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Naturyl (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Aug-18-08 05:33 PM Response to Reply #15 |
18. Absolutely. Another excellent point. |
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patriotvoice (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Aug-19-08 06:50 AM Response to Reply #18 |
61. How does that follow? |
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unblock (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Aug-19-08 12:21 PM Response to Reply #61 |
80. well the main point is that they'll spend it all, period |
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patriotvoice (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Aug-19-08 12:43 PM Response to Reply #80 |
81. Right, everyone is exporting captial. |
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DailyGrind51 (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Wed Aug-20-08 07:58 AM Response to Reply #80 |
104. Retailers in poorer communities would benefit, as would schools depending on local property taxes. |
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bobbolink (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Aug-18-08 09:15 PM Response to Reply #15 |
44. the surest way to make sure that money gets spent, and usually spent here in the u.s., is to put it |
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Naturyl (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Aug-18-08 09:58 PM Response to Reply #44 |
50. Yeah, that was one more slap.... |
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bobbolink (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Aug-19-08 11:55 AM Response to Reply #50 |
77. And where was the outrage? Where was the Democratic concern about us? |
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Naturyl (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Aug-19-08 02:41 PM Response to Reply #77 |
83. Well, I'm no longer under the delusion the Democratic party cares about me. |
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bobbolink (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Aug-19-08 11:57 AM Response to Reply #15 |
79. Maybe We, The People, would actually start VALUING those doing necessary |
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mwooldri (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Aug-19-08 11:44 PM Response to Reply #15 |
101. Small business would thrive under this IMO. |
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Prophet 451 (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Aug-18-08 05:32 PM Response to Original message |
17. Agreed but it can't happen |
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Naturyl (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Aug-18-08 05:37 PM Response to Reply #17 |
19. "Never" is a big word. |
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Prophet 451 (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Aug-18-08 05:43 PM Response to Reply #19 |
21. Fair point |
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starroute (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Aug-18-08 06:51 PM Response to Reply #21 |
24. One more big argument -- there is no longer enough work for everyone |
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Naturyl (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Aug-18-08 06:57 PM Response to Reply #24 |
25. Well-put and thanks for making another good point. n/t |
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bean fidhleir (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Aug-18-08 07:38 PM Response to Reply #24 |
26. Understand that the value of the productivity gains have gone into the pockets of the owner class, |
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WHAT (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Aug-19-08 12:23 AM Response to Reply #24 |
59. Could it work without population control?... |
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Prophet 451 (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Aug-19-08 10:51 PM Response to Reply #24 |
98. I'm familiar with the sci-fi ideas |
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Captain Sensible (200 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Aug-19-08 07:57 AM Response to Reply #19 |
66. Maybe.... |
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wuushew (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Aug-19-08 10:54 AM Response to Reply #66 |
74. A negative income tax works in concert with labor demand |
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csziggy (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Aug-19-08 11:20 PM Response to Reply #66 |
99. Did you ever watch the show "Dirty Jobs" |
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dajoki (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Aug-19-08 06:28 PM Response to Reply #19 |
95. Anything worthwhile... |
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bobbolink (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Aug-18-08 07:53 PM Response to Reply #17 |
28. You're right. It can't possibly happen. |
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maryf (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Aug-18-08 09:45 PM Response to Reply #28 |
47. Hear, hear |
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Prophet 451 (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Aug-19-08 10:45 PM Response to Reply #28 |
97. Geez, I get downhearted for an evening.... |
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bobbolink (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Wed Aug-20-08 02:54 PM Response to Reply #97 |
113. There's a difference between being "downhearted" and naysaying. |
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tavalon (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Aug-21-08 08:37 AM Response to Reply #113 |
122. Last week it seemed everyone here on DU was dissing, well, everything |
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Greyhound (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Aug-18-08 10:09 PM Response to Reply #17 |
51. Yet they have no problem with rich people getting a whole lot for nothing, |
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Naturyl (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Aug-18-08 10:53 PM Response to Reply #51 |
56. Bingo. They don't care if Paris Hilton lays around all day long... |
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tavalon (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Aug-21-08 08:47 AM Response to Reply #56 |
123. Damn, you hit that nail straight on! |
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bobbolink (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Aug-18-08 07:47 PM Response to Original message |
27. Thanks for bringing this up! All along I've thought the Nixon proposal had merit. |
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bean fidhleir (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Aug-18-08 08:10 PM Response to Original message |
30. Rather than redistribute money, it might be better to "de-profitize" the necessities of life |
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varelse (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Aug-18-08 08:37 PM Response to Reply #30 |
33. This is a good idea |
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Naturyl (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Aug-18-08 08:44 PM Response to Reply #33 |
36. I don't see why... |
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dysfunctional press (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Aug-18-08 08:54 PM Response to Reply #36 |
38. were is the all that cash going to come from? |
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Naturyl (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Aug-18-08 09:01 PM Response to Reply #38 |
40. Already addressed these objections. |
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bean fidhleir (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Aug-19-08 06:19 AM Response to Reply #36 |
60. Maybe you're not defining GMI the way other people do? |
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Naturyl (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Aug-19-08 02:43 PM Response to Reply #60 |
84. Ugh... |
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bean fidhleir (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Aug-19-08 03:18 PM Response to Reply #84 |
88. Perhaps you could explain what you mean in more detail? |
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Naturyl (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Aug-19-08 03:31 PM Response to Reply #88 |
90. We need universal single-payer health care along with any GMI. |
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bean fidhleir (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Aug-19-08 05:01 PM Response to Reply #90 |
92. So you are using "GMI" in a special way? You're not talking about making sure that everyone |
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Naturyl (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Aug-19-08 05:39 PM Response to Reply #92 |
93. Yeah, that's what single-payer health care means. |
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bean fidhleir (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Aug-19-08 05:52 PM Response to Reply #93 |
94. No, that's why I said "services", so that we're not talking about healthcare |
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varelse (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Wed Aug-20-08 07:52 AM Response to Reply #36 |
102. It couldn't be a single number then |
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patriotvoice (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Aug-19-08 06:59 AM Response to Reply #30 |
63. Or socialize the profits. |
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bean fidhleir (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Aug-19-08 10:08 AM Response to Reply #63 |
71. That would be the advantage of defining the necessities as public utilities |
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varelse (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Wed Aug-20-08 01:51 PM Response to Reply #71 |
111. This is the concept I agree with |
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Captain Sensible (200 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Aug-19-08 08:01 AM Response to Reply #30 |
67. WOW......... |
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bean fidhleir (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Aug-19-08 09:40 AM Response to Reply #67 |
70. In your ideologically-driven haste, you apparently missed the part where |
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dysfunctional press (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Aug-18-08 08:21 PM Response to Original message |
31. a 'guaranteed minimum income' is utterly meaningless without an enforced 'maximum income'... |
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Naturyl (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Aug-18-08 08:33 PM Response to Reply #31 |
32. Hehe... I'm self-educated |
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dysfunctional press (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Aug-18-08 08:38 PM Response to Reply #32 |
34. throw out some numbers- at what guaranteed income level would you eradicate poverty? |
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Naturyl (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Aug-18-08 08:41 PM Response to Reply #34 |
35. If the poverty line for a given family is $20k per year, for example... |
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dysfunctional press (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Aug-18-08 08:53 PM Response to Reply #35 |
37. is $20k the number you're going with, then? for how many people? |
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Naturyl (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Aug-18-08 08:59 PM Response to Reply #37 |
39. $1 above the poverty line, adjusted annually for cost of living |
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ret5hd (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Aug-18-08 09:03 PM Response to Reply #35 |
41. You see, "ideas" are useless...not even worth talking about... |
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Naturyl (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Aug-18-08 09:05 PM Response to Reply #41 |
42. You're being sarcastic, I assume? |
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ret5hd (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Aug-18-08 09:07 PM Response to Reply #42 |
43. Oh, 100 percent. |
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wuushew (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Aug-18-08 09:37 PM Response to Reply #31 |
45. I actually don't agree with you on this point |
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Naturyl (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Aug-18-08 09:41 PM Response to Reply #45 |
46. Yes. We had a 90% top tax bracket at one point... |
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maryf (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Aug-18-08 09:49 PM Response to Reply #46 |
48. Maybe |
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Naturyl (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Aug-18-08 09:54 PM Response to Reply #48 |
49. Nope, they wouldn't miss it. |
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Kat45 (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Aug-18-08 10:27 PM Response to Original message |
52. In order to do this, there would have to be single payer health care. |
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Naturyl (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Aug-18-08 10:32 PM Response to Reply #52 |
53. I don't disagree. |
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SoCalDem (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Aug-18-08 10:38 PM Response to Original message |
54. In theory, maybe.. In practice..not so much |
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Naturyl (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Aug-18-08 10:48 PM Response to Reply #54 |
55. And what happens to those who don't fit in with such an approach? |
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SoCalDem (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Aug-18-08 10:56 PM Response to Reply #55 |
57. What do they have now? a patchwork quilt of endless paperwork |
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Naturyl (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Aug-18-08 11:04 PM Response to Reply #57 |
58. Saying don't make it so. |
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patriotvoice (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Aug-19-08 07:32 AM Response to Original message |
64. Various arguments. |
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Thothmes (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Aug-19-08 07:38 AM Response to Original message |
65. Interesting proposition |
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joeglow3 (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Aug-19-08 08:15 AM Response to Original message |
68. What happens to low paying jobs??? |
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robcon (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Aug-19-08 10:25 AM Response to Reply #68 |
72. You took my argument right out of my keyboard, joeglow3 |
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ret5hd (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Aug-19-08 10:36 AM Response to Reply #72 |
73. well, that explains the "con" in your username. |
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bobbolink (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Aug-19-08 11:52 AM Response to Reply #68 |
76. Just like what happens in many other (enlightened) countries. |
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DailyGrind51 (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Wed Aug-20-08 07:55 AM Response to Reply #68 |
103. A negative income tax would bring them up by reimbursing them for the difference! |
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Regret My New Name (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Wed Aug-20-08 03:36 PM Response to Reply #68 |
115. Well... My first thoughts... |
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killbotfactory (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Wed Aug-20-08 07:24 PM Response to Reply #68 |
116. If a job doesn't pay a living wage, it isn't worth doing |
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LWolf (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Aug-19-08 09:06 AM Response to Original message |
69. Our nation, our system, |
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yurbud (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Aug-19-08 11:57 AM Response to Original message |
78. number 10 is ironic |
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Naturyl (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Aug-19-08 02:46 PM Response to Reply #78 |
85. Why is that? |
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yurbud (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Aug-19-08 03:02 PM Response to Reply #85 |
86. because even an idea that sounds like pie in the sky idealism is nickel & dime compared to military |
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Naturyl (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Aug-19-08 03:15 PM Response to Reply #86 |
87. Yeah. Nobody could dream of spending so much on poverty... |
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yurbud (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Wed Aug-20-08 11:10 AM Response to Reply #87 |
108. Dr. Evil: "Keep people from STARVING?! But I need sharks with frickin' lasers on their heads!'' |
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Raksha (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Aug-19-08 11:39 PM Response to Original message |
100. Too late to recommend, but kicking anyway. n/t |
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ItNerd4life (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Wed Aug-20-08 08:30 AM Response to Original message |
107. How about a maximum ratio instead. Now it's 500 to1 and growing! |
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bobbolink (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Wed Aug-20-08 12:36 PM Response to Reply #107 |
109. And what about people too young or too old or too disabled to work? |
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defendandprotect (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Wed Aug-20-08 12:40 PM Response to Original message |
110. Certainly in favor of this . . . |
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bobbolink (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Wed Aug-20-08 02:53 PM Response to Reply #110 |
112. "but has to be paired with a "Living Wage" -- otherwise taxpayers would" IF you read it, |
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Regret My New Name (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Wed Aug-20-08 03:33 PM Response to Original message |
114. That would never happen here... |
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