Why is it you can buy a VW turbodeisel that gets 60- 70 MPG anywhere in the world

[cliffordu]

including Mexico for under 20 grand and you cannot get them here???


WTF??

( I think I already know the answer, I'm just tossing gas on the fire.....)

[IndianaJones]

1. i see them around where i live. nt.

[cliffordu]

5. The "Clean Deisel " Polo??

[IndianaJones]

7. rumored for 2010. its all about generating dollars. plenty of VW diesels here already. nt.

[Selatius]

2. There is something about how diesels don't qualify under US emissions standards.

Yet, somehow, VW TDIs are all over Europe.

[IndianaJones]

4. you can buy them here. nt.

[Lance_Boyle]

26. not in 2007, you couldn't.

And not in NY or CA for many years.

TDIs are VERY rare in the states, which is why a 2001 model with 100K miles on it will set you back around $10K today.

[Eurobabe]

12. The EU has tighter emissions standards

than California with the new Euro-4 and coming Euro-5 and the new diesels are so efficient they let off less gas, particulates, etc.

http://www.euractiv.com/en/transport/euro-5-emissions-standards-cars/article-133325

My guess is that auto lobby just doesn't want to let the diesels play in the USA. :shrug:

IFQC Ranks Top 100 Countries by Clean, Ultra Low Sulfur Diesel Standards; U.S. Ranks 34th

The International Fuel Quality Center (IFQC) has ranked the top 100 countries based on sulfur limits in diesel; Sweden was found to be at the top of the ranking with the earliest implementation of the lowest sulfur limits. Following in second and third were Germany and Japan, respectively. The U.S. placed 34th overall.

"There is a tremendous need to address the overall increase in transportation emissions, especially as populations and their need for transportation continue to grow," said Liisa Kiuru, executive director, IFQC. "Additionally, desulfurization is expanding beyond on-road fuels -- efforts are now being focused on reducing sulfur limits in marine fuels, non- and off-road fuels, and home heating oil." http://www.autobloggreen.com/2008/05/27/u-s-is-34th-in-ultra-low-sulfur-diesel-standards-eu-countries/

[rawtribe]

3. You can get the Jetta TDI here:

http://www.vw.com/jettasportwagen/tdi/en/us/

[cliffordu]

6. I GOT IT>.......I was looking at an article out of 2007....watta idjit...sorry.

No more espresso....

[EOTE]

22. The US has sold TDIs for a very long time. Maybe since the mid 80s.

They've consistently gotten very good fuel economy (though not quite the 60 to 70mpg the polo gets). VW has been the only car manufacturer in the US who has been able to sell diesels fairly regularly. The reason we've not gotten the Polo as of yet is not because of the lack of diesels in the US, it's that the Polo is a very tiny sub-sub-compact and very tiny cars are just beginning to catch on here.

[alfredo]

28. The TDI seems to do well at LeMans

[EOTE]

29. Unfortunately, we don't have access to the R10's TDI on public roads yet.

However, the V12 TDI that's used in the Audi Q7 and soon to be found in the R8 (and maybe S8 too) produces 500hp, around 750lb/ft of torque and still provides 20+ mpg is very similar and already in production. We're going to be seeing a lot of amazing diesels coming out soon.

[alfredo]

31. Yeah, but I can't afford those amazing toys. We have to go electric

burning fossil fuels is a disaster.

[1]

8. because the united states has these pesky little rules called "emissions standards"...

and the reason those freakishly tiny european cars are not sold here are those pesky little rules called "collision standards."


either you get with the our programs about the environment and safety or you don't.


see?

[cliffordu]

11. I think the "clean deisels" are just that, and the crash standards are going

to have to change to allow small hyper-mileage vehicles IN THE CITIES...where most of the driving is done.





I dunno why I started this thread. Except I don't think the personal auto is going to go away....but the iteration we have now seems to be killing us faster than I thought it would.

:shrug:




I haven't spent a dime on gas this year. And that makes me happy. And snooty.

[1]

14. heh. i love "snooty"!

here is my snooty.

i had the opportunity to live in a country without "emissions or crash standards" once. kl. malaysia. people did not get all worked up about that because they had to get to work each day. they drove their small scooters...

the cars would stop at traffic lights, the scooters would advance to the front of the line in anticipation of the green light.

green light!

the scooters would roar off. the cars would follow. always made me laugh.

i get "emission standards" and i get "crash test standards"...


i'm just saying...

[cliffordu]

20. Same deal in Vietnam. I'd say the body count due to traffic

carnage was 10x over the war any day.....Most of the time they'd just leave the wreckage off to the side of the road to be cannibalized......

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

15. You believe that Europe doesn't have emissions or crash standards?

That comes as a surprise to me, given all of the bitching by car manufacturers over here about having to comply with new safety laws and regulations. Here are some for you to start with:

http://ec.europa.eu/enterprise/automotive/directives/vehicles/dir70_156_cee.html

This is the European New Car Assessment program's website, where crash test data is available for every car tested:

http://www.euroncap.com/Content-Web-Start/$c7dad01d-a23c-4ae6-bc4c-2676e24a78c2/home.aspx

As for emission standards, you can start here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_emission_standards

Also keeping in mind that the countries of Europe are, by and large, Kyoto signatories who take their treaty obligations for emission reduction seriously.

On a more practical level, it's obvious that Volkswagen, which is the main manufacturer we're discussing, complies with United States collision standards because, with the exception of the Polo and several niche vehicles, every VW model sold in Europe is also sold in the US. The Polo does in fact meet US crash standards, and the main reason it isn't currently being imported has a lot to do with politcking and marketing and nothing to do with safety.

[Romulox]

25. Tailpipes have more emissions than CO2. The issue with diesels is (was?) particulates

Which are not addressed by Kyoto.

[EOTE]

23. The biggest way to reduce emissions is by simply burning less fuel.

Modern diesels do that in spades. Sure, diesel with a high sulfur content produces a greater amount of emissions per gallon burned (though low sulfur diesels are fantastic and clean), but considering how much further a gallon propels the diesels, the emissions produced per mile driven is a good deal less in a diesel. Diesels have such a bad rep in the US because American manufacturers were forced to produce them very quickly during the oil crisis and they did a really shitty job of making them. Most so called "diesels" produced in the U.S. in the 70s and 80s were conventional gas burners retrofitted with glow plugs and other diesel bits. As such they were loud, smelly and very unreliable. Engines built from the top down as diesels (especially modern diesels) tend to be quiet, smooth (with boat loads of low end torque) fuel efficient and very reliable.

[eshfemme]

40. Yes, it's easier for smaller cars to get higher MPG but they're more vulnerable in crashes

because with how much lighter and tinier they are, smaller cars don't have as much protection against collisions.

[Dover]

9. Here's another question:

Now that there are several new diesel models being introduced in the U.S. and we have the
new 'clean' diesel, why is it that diesel prices are through the roof? It certainly won't
help diesel vehicle sales get a foothold in the market.




Actually, if you assume that the dollar is worth almost half of it's value (perhaps less)
then it makes sense that fuel prices are worth roughly twice as much as they were. But
$4.60 for diesel is beyond ridiculous. And especially since so much produce is transported
via diesel trucks.

[cliffordu]

10. Maximize profit before the new administration bans excessive speculation??

That'd be my guess, but I dunno anything about it.

[dysfunctional press]

13. the iraq war is DIRECTLY responsible for the higher cost of diesel...

the american war machine sucks up big chunks of the supply of that stuff faster than anyone.

[Ikonoklast]

18. The U.S. military uses 40% of all refined petroleum products in this country.

When the military moves, it moves on diesel power.

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

16. It's not just the US where diesel prices have gone sky high.

It's happened in Europe as well.

[Codeine]

24. Yep.

NPR was talking about this the other day. IIRC, it's a taxation issue; the EU standards don't allow for preferential taxation of different fuels or something like that.

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

17. Supply and demand, for one thing.

American ideas about diesel cars are relatively outdated. When most Americans think diesel, they either conjure up an image of a city bus, or one of those horrifically noisy, smelly old Mercedes turbodiesels. The fact of the matter is that the new generation of diesels are clean, quiet, and (most importantly from a market acceptance perspective) don't stink to high heaven. So there's the negative, outdated attitude towards diesels, combined with the fact that until recently fuel prices were low enough that few actually cared whether their car got 50MPG vs. 35. Furthermore, low sulfur diesel only started to be used widely in the USA from 2006, and that is a critical necessity for the adoption of new diesel cars. A lot of education will need to take place in order to get Americans on board with diesels, but I've seen far more interest in them in the past two years than ever before.

One other minor point: Volkswagen's branding in the United States is distinctly hip and upmarket vs. its branding in most of the rest of the world. I remember back in late 90s / early 2000s SF bay area it seemed like every other wannabe hipster yuppie was driving a Jetta. The things were everywhere, and they were expensive!

[skids]

19. Just a note about diesel mileage...

Don't get me wrong diesels are great cars, especially with TDI, and it really sucks no diesel hybrids are offered here in the U.S. A diesel hybrid PHEV running with biodiesel is one of my possible "dream eco-cars" barring a full electric.

But... when you calculate the mileage compared to a gas car, you have to reduce the diesel mileage by 15% (the amount of extra CO2 emitted by diesel per gallon.) Also if you are reading the mileage from a British source, you have to check whether they are using imperial gallons, and if so, reduce the diesel mileage again by 20%, because one imperial gallon is 1.2 U.S. liquid gallons.

[EOTE]

27. Modern diesels typically have fewer emissions per mile than gas burners.

The diesel Jetta and Passat average around 50% greater economy than their gas burning counterparts. Modern diesel give off no where near 50% greater emissions per gallon than gasoline.

[skids]

35. I'm not arguing that point...

Diesels = good as far as I am concerned.

I am just saying you cannot take a mileage figure out of a British magazine and compare it to an American mileage without first checking what kind of gallon they are using (not sure if the OP did or not.)

Also, you cannot do a straight comparison of diesel and gas mileage. First you drop the mileage of the diesel by 15%. Then look how they stack up. The diesel will still win, because the mileage figure with that adjustment will still be higher for equivalent vehicles. But it won't be by a grotesque, inaccurate margin.

[EOTE]

36. But if you are just concerned about mileage.

Then you shouldn't tack on a 15% penalty for increased emissions. Converting gallons is certainly important because if you don't, you've got a skewed view of the actual mileage. But considering that diesels overall provide lower emissions per mile driven, you shouldn't factor in a mileage penalty for that.

[skids]

37. "mileage" is pointless...

Either you are concerned about emissions, or you are concerned about cost. Either way a gallon of diesel is not the same animal as a gallon of gas.

[EOTE]

38. Mileage is pointless?

Mileage is directly related to the amount of money you pay per mile driven. You can be concerned about emissions as well as cost. It would be very silly to discount economy at the altar of emissions. Hell, they could create a ULEV Hummer if they dedicated themselves to it. It would probably still get about 12 mpg, but it would have very clean exhaust. I somehow doubt that those paying 50% of their income to drive it would really care so much about what comes out the tailpipe.

[skids]

39. Do the math yourself.

If we had a diesel that gets 30MPG and a gasoline internal combustion engine that gets 26MPG, at current pump prices:

http://tonto.eia.doe.gov/oog/info/gdu/gasdiesel.asp

$4:20 for diesel = 14 cents per mile
$3.74 for gasoline = 14 cents per mile

"mileage" is pointless whether you are talking emissions or cost.

You have to to the math when comparing diesel to gas. Diesel will usually work out better, depending on the exact cars you are comparing, but you still have to do the math, or you are just fooling yourself.

[bullwinkle428]

33. Diesels kick ass when it comes to steady speed, interstate-type

cruising, but they would struggle to keep up, MPG-wise, with a full hybrid in a low-speed, stop and go driving pattern, typical of city driving. Diesel hybrids offer the best of both worlds, once they actually start building them!

[jmowreader]

21. A lot of it's historical

One big thing that killed the diesel market in the 1970s was the need to let the engine sit long enough for the glow plug light to go out before you cranked the engine. A lot of people remember how their neighbor's wife, who'd been brought up on gasoline cars, totally hosed the glow plugs by trying to crank the engine with the WAIT light on.

Also, "what if I need to start the engine RIGHT NOW?" Because, as we all know, zombies and devil worshippers trying to kill you if you can't instantly start the car and roar off in a cloud of dust is an ever-present threat in many places.

Three weeks ago we were wrapping a new Dodge diesel pickup in my office, because we can get pickups through the door and it's the only air-conditioned place in the shop that's big enough to put a truck. After the installers were done, I had to get the truck out of my office...I turned the key and the WAIT light just blinked once. It was ready to start (and in fact DID start) less than half a second after I turned the key. It was nice and quiet, and it didn't smell "like a diesel." An engine like that would sell well.

[tammywammy]

30. You can buy a Jetta TDI today

Well, not buy, you can put down your deposit. We started getting the new Jetta TDIs to us over the weekend and started selling them yesterday.

The main problem is that the government limits the percentage of diesels of the entire fleet that VW imports into the US. There are 600 VW dealerships and each dealership is only allocated so many cars to keep within the limit allowed.

We have a huge amount of deposits and a long waiting list. Come in and put your $500 deposit down, and you'll get a car in December.


BTW, I drive a 2006 Beetle TDI. :)

[bullwinkle428]

32. Also, the short-attention span American sheeple look at the

diesel price compared with the gasoline price on the Kwik-E-Mart's electronic board and say...

"ZOMG!!!1! WHY WOULD I POSSIBLY CONSIDER BUYING ANYTHING WITH A DIESEL!??!?1?"

We need to start emphasizing the basics of math before we let people have their high school diplomas...

[tammywammy]

34. Yep

After Hurricane Katrina when the price of gas shot up, everyone, I mean everyone, wanted a diesel. 40+ phone calls a day about diesels. We were out. You could order one, put a deposit down on one already in production.

As soon we started getting them back into the dealership, gas prices went down and all these people didn't want them anymore. Idiots.