Didn't Joe Biden sponsor or vote for the last bankruptcy bill?

[Postman]

Seems to me Joe Biden is a corporate Democrat.

I'm sure he's a brilliant legislator. I think maybe he would have made a better choice for Secretary of State.

[liberalmuse]

1. Why be coy and dishonest? You already know the answer.

If you're sincere, try 'Google'. You can even find his speech on the floor on why he was for the bill. Sometimes good people make bad decisions, like Obama with the FISA vote, and Hillary with IWR. I try not to vote for the bad people who consistently make bad decisions.

[Rene]

15. I find Biden to be an obnoxious blowhard......folks will see it....soon.

[Flabbergasted]

25. Less so than you and we see that clearly now nt

[stillcool]

32. what you think you know

Joe Biden better than anyone here, of all places? Or is this just another talking point?

[Name removed]

114. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[PaDem]

129. Who would those two.......

esteemed individuals be?

[wisteria]

2. he voted against the lower income and middle class and supported the big credit card companies. nt

[Name removed]

17. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Matariki]

18. So people aren't allowed to say inconvenient FACTS?

They're on the WRONG BOARD if they mention certain facts, huh?

I didn't realize DU was a hole in the ground to put our heads into...

[Tarheel_Dem]

20. I could suggest where your head might be, but it would get me banned.

You and I both know the disgruntled Clintonites and trolls are out in force on this board tonight.

[Matariki]

22. So, are you saying it's UNTRUE about his role in the bankruptcy bill?

Or just that anyone who mentions it on DU is a troll?

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2005/3/6/63144/06015
http://www.commondreams.org/headlines05/0312-03.htm
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/jackson-williams/joe-biden-true-friend-of_b_120776.html

[Name removed]

44. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[tokenlib]

46. We are going to need everyone we can get in November...

Just because you dislike the concerns and criticisms expressed by others doesn't mean that we are not loyal democrats. Censorship and purging dissenters is no way to win in November. Dissent is equal to inciting disunity????

[Tarheel_Dem]

47. Riddle me this...is there a politician with whom you've agreed 100%?

Is there anyone Obama could have chosen that everyone would have agreed with? The PUMA types on this board are predictable, and I'm so sick of you whiners crying about every little thing Obama says or does. If you don't support the ticket, why continue to post here? Your objections only give cover to trolls and disruptors. You guys are out in force, and unity is not your motive. It's as clear as day.

[Selatius]

69. I don't think all people who criticize Biden are trolls and disruptors.

Just because somebody criticizes a politician does not automatically mean they are disruptors and provocateurs trying to stir up trouble. It is unfair to those who bring up valid criticism as loyal Democrats, not as those who try to undermine the party.

[Tarheel_Dem]

71. And how does one know the difference? You see my dilemma?

:eyes:

[Selatius]

72. Well, for one, you don't put everybody in the same box and label it "trolls"

If you want to challenge somebody on a point, you go out and challenge that person directly instead of lumping everybody together and labeling them as people who are not adding anything of value to the discussion. That's completely unfair to those who wish to advance the discussion instead of simply throwing bombs. You should know better than that.

:eyes:

[Tarheel_Dem]

73. I stand chastened and rebuked....

:eyes:

[roguevalley]

136. here's a definition that might cover a few objections: anyone who

shuts down legitimate discussion -- ie, a politician's public record- and calls the discussers trolls or bad dems is a troll. we've had eight years of censorship. discussing biden's public votes is not trolling. making lies about his public votes is. its very easy to tell the difference. that is if you want to.

[Name removed]

109. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[roguevalley]

134. excuse me. I don't like the ticket but I am voting for it anyway. who

appointed you the hall monitor here? discussion is what this board is for. even the inconvenient stuff. not allowing it is republican.

[Tarheel_Dem]

143. The favorite cover for trolls and disruptors......

"discussion is what this board is for. even the inconvenient stuff. not allowing it is republican."

Now pull the other one.........

[defendandprotect]

95. It's that same ole, same ole here . . . people want to live in fantasy worlds

in regard to politicians --- especially Democrats --- !!!

And then they expect progress---!!!

We are living in one of the most dangerous times for our species and this planet ---

and for the experiment in democracy and people's government ---

and they want . . . . "see no evil, hear no evil, say no evil" ---

What a joke!

[renie408]

125. I think they are saying "Whathefuckever". Which PURE running mate could Obama have chosen?? n/t

[renie408]

124. Yeah, when did that happen? When did they start pulling your posts if you said

somebody's head was up their ass??

Damn, I missed that memo...

[Skittles]

158. wtf?

WHAT does that have to do with someone pimping for corporate America????

[DutchLiberal]

84. Oh please, DU has always been this way. DU is all 'party before country'.

[defendandprotect]

96. What a great way to put that . . . "DU is all party before country" . . . .

I've often chided them with Big D vs small "d" democracy ---

but I think you've said it much better ---

And, thru this inane thinking they expect the nation to progress --- !!!

[Donnachaidh]

93. where's that big tent attitude that used to be DU?

Dissent is suddenly not allowed?

[clear eye]

56. On ONE Vote

Look at the rest of his record: <http://themiddleclass.org/legislator/joseph-biden-412>

[clear eye]

57. He Also Voted This Year to Amend It

to protect homes <http://themiddleclass.org/legislator/joseph-biden-412>

[Donnachaidh]

94. AFTER the damage was done, and while he was running for president, yes?

Gee -- perhaps he might have had a REASON for suddenly doing that? No personal gain involved, obviously? :sarcasm:

[roguevalley]

133. its my biggest problem here, those two facts. sigh. Its hard to be a

dem some times but the alternative is worse. the last time I mentioned this inconvenient truth I was jumped on by some dork that said well, I suppose you want hagel then. What an ass. I am a flaming radical leftie dem. The IDEA of a repug taking one of our two places on the ticket makes my blood boil. I think there is room to discuss EVERYTHING without people jumping on you like you are disloyal or a bad dem or ... does it sound familiar? Repigs do that all the time. That is why i loathe them, they won't talk about ALL OF IT. By the by, I remember when Joe biden was sworn in so I think I can speak about the shit he's done that is INDEFENSIBLE. Usury is now enshrined in law.

I will be glad when this election is over.

[NMDemDist2]

3. he did vote for the corporations that employ a HUGE majority of his

Delaware constituents.


It was a questionable bill, but some of the things in there weren't all bad.

I can give him a pass on this one, I've yet to see a politician I agree with 100%

[Kat45]

8. You are absolutely right, AZDem.

He was voting for his constituents, which is what every legislator is expected to do. The credit card companies and their many employees are his constituency in Delaware. For that reason, I too can give him a pass on that vote.

[depakid]

11. He wasn't voting for consistuents- he was voting for CAMPAIGN DONORS

for political gain at the expense of ordinary Americans.

Ironically, there have been some indications that the law might actually end up hurting these corrupt corporations, and if so- that's just desserts in my book.

[Kurt_and_Hunter]

24. Funny how they didn't bankroll his presidential run...

For someone who's supposed to be the bought-and-paid-for corporate candidate it's interesting that he raised about 800 dollars during the primaries.

[Freddie Stubbs]

37. Actually, he raised about $13 million

http://www.opensecrets.org/pres08/index.php

[gateley]

146. $13 mil was the TOTAL he raised in campaign contributions - not from the

banking industry.

How very misleading of you.

http://www.opensecrets.org/pres08/summary.php?cid=N00001669&cycle=2008

[stillcool]

34. and you know because..

you looked in his eyes and saw his soul?

[Freddie Stubbs]

35. Where do you think those constituents work?

:shrug:

[MisterP]

31. MT, IN, DE, LA, WA, MO, NY, SD, CT, ND, NC, CA, IA, SC, MA, WI, AR, GA, FL, NE, NV, WV, NJ

presumably are packed with merchants of death, holy warriors, mercs, and other war pigs: do Baucus, Bayh, Biden, Breaux, Cantwell, Carnahan, Carper, Cleland, Clinton, Daschle, Dodd, Dorgan, Edwards, Feinstein, Harkin, Hollings, Johnson, Kerry, Kohl, Landrieu, Lieberman, Lincoln, Miller, NelsonandNelson, Reid, Rockefeller, Schumer, and Torricelli get a "pass" on the IWR too?

[depakid]

45. Actually, no they don't

They're a PRIME reason that Congress has consistently lower public approval ratings than Bush.

[roguevalley]

138. he was helping his donors. even his constituents got the 29%

raise in credit interest. how did that help his constituents. people have lost everything and some have killed themselves over this decision of his. Its his record. Its free to discuss this. It won't make me not vote or vote for someone else but it steams me no end. I don't give him a pass. Voting for the right thing is leadership. Voting for this is politics for the payers.

Don't question my bonafides as a dem or as a member of this board. Joe made this happen. Its his to own. Usury as public law. asking who I might support that I agree with 100% is a smoke screen. I don't agree with Obama 100% but I am voting for him. I don't give away my right to think and question to no one. If I did, I would be a repug.

By the by, this is my 19,913th post. :) just saying. (memo to self: get a life) :)

[Wizard777]

13. Their corporate lawyers might be his constituents. Del. is famous for their shelf corporations.

The greater majority of corporations that are incorporated in Delaware. They have no presence in the state beyond their articles of Incorporation sitting on shelf in a lawyers office. How ever Delaware offers 200 years of corporate law to these corporations.

[AuntPatsy]

27. a voice of reason in insane times......thank you

[JDPriestly]

30. The bad in the bill far outweighed the good.

For example, for those of you who are paying back student loans, it makes it virtually impossible to declare bankruptcy on loans. Now, that was true before the bill for certain government backed student loans. What that awful bill did was to broaden the scope of "education" loans that cannot be discharged in bankruptcy to include a wide variety of loans that are just sort of related to education. It's an evil plot against the poor.

But, nobody is perfect. I'm delighted that Biden is Obama's choice. There were several qualified candidates, but Biden could not have chosen a better running mate.

[defendandprotect]

98. So you also support his pro-Iraq war vote . . . ?

[NMDemDist2]

150. Hillary's campaign put that to rest IMO

we don't have to re-hash it with Joe too.

[defendandprotect]

154. I don't get what you're saying . . . ?

HRC is not the VP candidate ---

and I would have objected to her on the SAME basis that I object to Biden . . .

They're both DLC -- and both voted for the war in Iraq ---

Either way, they are out of step with Obama which belies his positions and

suggests some DLC/money men decision making here --

[leftofthedial]

4. he's a tool of big banks.

so what's new.

this country is run by those with the most money.

no need to get all worked up over it.

[Growler]

16. you do realize that is one of the poorest Senators

and has commuted via Amtrak every day for nearly 35 years??

[leftofthedial]

33. yes

I also realize he voted "yea" on the Iraq War Resolution

I also realize he voted "yea" on the "bankruptcy protection act"

I also realize he voted "yea" on the Secure Fence Act of 2006

I also realize he played the key Senate role in deregulating the credit card industry

I also realize he has played the key "democratic" Senate role in the "war on drugs." (Al Gore "invented the Internet." Joe Biden invented the drug czar.)

I also realize he is a tool of Bank of America and other big banks. They have kept him in the Senate since Nixon was President.

[pinto]

48. Just a side note. He was re-elected to the Senate by his constituents.

Repeatedly. In elections.

I don't agree with all of his votes over his career in the Senate either. I doubt I agree with the total of anyone's vote, over their career, in the Senate or the House.

Biden is a good choice for VP with Obama, imho. I think it's a great ticket.

[leftofthedial]

52. his re-"elections" were financed by Bank of America, et al

money talks. For the most part, Americans do what the telly tells 'em.

[spanone]

119. i agree, it's a great ticket.

[clear eye]

59. And He Voted FOR the People this Year on

FISA
residential fuel assistance program
Medicare payments for doctors
renewable energy
student loans
amendment to the bankruptcy law to exempt homes
exemption of small businesses & family farms from estate tax
foreclosure prevention
SCHIP
consumer product safety
affordable housing
veterans' benefits

<http://themiddleclass.org/legislator/joseph-biden-412>

And he's made it clear for years that he regrets being carried away by the temper of the times in voting to authorize Bush to use force in Iraq. Everybody knows that, including, I'm sure you. What an interesting selective memory you have.

[leftofthedial]

66. I never said he was Satan. Nor did I claim to be writing his entire biography.

I just said he was a proponent of predatory lenders, which is undeniably the truth based on his voting record. Then, when called to task for speaking the truth, I listed a few of Biden's other questionable votes.

I think this is a pretty good ticket if you want the appearance of "change" without actually getting much change. Government of, by and for the corporations will continue unchecked.

[clear eye]

67. Do You Even Hear Yourself? You summed him up as a "tool of big banks"

which is a judgement of his "entire biography". You might have a better case in calling Obama a "corporatist", but you weren't talking about him. Biden is a close friend of organized labor who are our one current defense against some of the worst abuses of corporations. And basically that is the feeling of most of the people here including progressives--that given Obama's orientation, and the Republican lite candidates that we were threatened with, not to mention the possibility of a McCain Presidency, Biden is a pretty reliable friend of the people. His long-term opposition to the dangerous and exhorbitantly expensive "Star Wars" missle defense program, a favorite of the military-industrial complex, is alone a reason to admire and be grateful to him.

[Selatius]

68. For the most part, he is pro-labor, but I emphasize "for the most part."

The bankruptcy bill was nothing short of a direct assault on the working class of America. Labor interests would be wise to take into account the things he has done for and against the working people of America who are struggling harder than they probably have since 1970s stagflation.

[leftofthedial]

121. yeah, that bankruptcy bill and banking deregulation

were REAL friendly to American workers...

Do you even hear YOURself?

He's one of the marginally better "democrats" during whose tenure we have seen the Democratic Party become basically indistinguishable from 1950's Republicans. He's pretty good on a few marginal labor issues, but his grotesque support of banks--AT THE DIRECT EXPENSE OF ORDINARY AMERICANS--trumps anything good he might have done. He supported Iraq War Powers (though I admit his subsequent attempts to hide from that record are somewhat more believable than, say, Clinton's); he unapologetically supported the PATRIOT Act AND its extension; he tirelessly and aggressively LED the move for banking deregulation in the Senate (even way out in front of what the repukes wanted).

He's "pretty reliable," but also pretty damned responsible for some of the worst economic policy in the history of this country.

[defendandprotect]

100. ....how much of that had to do with his Presidential candidacy? .

AND . . . he voted against late term abortions ---

while suggesting that he still strong supports Roe vs Wade --- !!!

[leftofthedial]

151. and he's a supporter of English as the official language

I am not a fan.

[defendandprotect]

99. PLEASE . . . stay around to keep us informed in this way . . . .

many here want fantasy instead of reality ---

We need more people like you reminding us of what's really going on ---



PS: Biden also voted against late term abortions --- while still suggesting he strongly
supports Roe vs Wade!

[tavalon]

141. Do you realize that you won't find a single congresscritter

who has voted consistently to our (your) liking? Some are better than others. Joe Biden is ok in my book.

[leftofthedial]

152. so, you are in favor of:

-granting george w. bush the power to invade and occupy Iraq if he feels like it (the IWR)

-the PATRIOT Act

-the extension of the PATRIOT Act

-the deregulation of the banking industry

-draconian limitations on personal bankruptcy protection

-granting all the money (plus more!) that george bush has ever asked for to fund his cabal's occupation of Iraq and war profiteering

-English as the only official language of the US

-the construction of a wall along the US-Mexico border

In fairness, he opposed bush's tax cuts. He opposed telco immunity. Occasionally, on minor issues that wouldn't harm his big bank contributors, he voted pro-worker.

I give Biden a C- at best. We deserve A candidates for offices like President and Vice President.

[defendandprotect]

155. Let's not take too much for granted . . . .

in these days of jobs for sons and other favors which pop up so frequently . . .

There's lots of dirty stuff going on in the banking/financial world --

and in the days where we still have unidentified bank accounts I wouldn't be

naive about what actually goes on in the world --

These bank accounts are a threat to all citizens --- a threat to democracy!

[stillcool]

36. Who do you think could get elected..

that isn't a 'tool'? The people in this country would never vote for anyone who even dared to speak the truth, and no one could get to the level of Presidential politics without serious money behind them. If there is no possibility of 'we the people', which obviously there isn't, because even Democrats don't like the Democrats, why bother? No hope for the possible, just doomed for the inevitable?

[leftofthedial]

39. welcome to Amurka

why bother, indeed?

if "electability" or ability to "win" an election is the only criterion, why not just let bush stay in office?

[stillcool]

43. If that is what Americans want..

that is what they will get. The government is a problem, but 'we the people' are part of it. I myself prefer to expect the worst, and hope for the best. Hell..I even play the lottery every now and then. Pissing and moaning never got me anywhere.

[Freddie Stubbs]

38. The big banks employ many of his constituents

[leftofthedial]

40. and him.

[Freddie Stubbs]

41. No, he is an employee of the federal government

[leftofthedial]

53. strange job though. he has no "boss" in the federal gummint

just campaign donors giving him suggestions

and he's pretty compliant.

[clear eye]

60. There are gov't officials who use the revolving door

to move into lobbying or related business jobs and back into gov't. They get rich by selling out the people's interests. Any fair-minded look at Biden's record and history will show that he is not one of them. You need to know your friends.

BTW, what is the flag you are using as an avatar?

[Norrin Radd]

65. That's New Mexico's flag.

[Freddie Stubbs]

74. The voters of Delaware are his boss

After his first election, they have reelected him by wide margins every six years.

[leftofthedial]

86. the voters of Delaware are assholes then, if they want 540% interest rates

and if they want people to lose their homes, cars, etc. when defaulting on unsecured loans.

Biden voted for and even sponsored legislation that created the most predatory financial climate in modern history--legislation that helped the biggest financial institutions on earth at the extreme expense of ordinary Americans. Offer any excuse you want. I'm not a fan.

[jberryhill]

103. You have a point there...

...but you should really look at the employment breakdown here in Delaware (where I've lived for 45 years).

It's the fault of the Delaware legislature back in the 1980's when they re-wrote the banking laws. The effect has been that credit card banks are collectively the largest employers in the state, and MBNA is second only to the local health conglomerate as the top employer.

It's not an "excuse" - it is a simple fact that around a quarter of our population is employed by credit card banks.

[Freddie Stubbs]

159. Which credit card companies are offering card with a 540% interest rate?

:shrug:

[leftofthedial]

176. there is no federal limit (thanks to mr. Biden) on the interest rate

a credit card company can charge. Plus, they can charge interest on whatever basis they wish (daily, monthly, annually, with sliding rates depending on the age of the balance, etc.).

Predatory lenders attract customers with very low interest rates, which they increase to 18% or more, often with draconian terms, after the promotional period.

When a customer can make only the minimum payment, they find themselves in a compounding interest trap in which they can easily end up paying 100%, 300% or even higher interest rates by the time the debt is paid. There even have been examples of the balance increasing every month when only minimum payments are made.

The best solution is to not have or use credit cards, but that does not excuse usury. Through clever and pervasive marketing and merchandising partnerships, consumers have come to the belief that they MUST have a credit card.

[defendandprotect]

101. Delaware financial interests have gotten Biden re-elected . . . .

[Freddie Stubbs]

160. Actually, most of his contributors were lawyers, not 'financial interests'

http://www.opensecrets.org/politicians/summary.php?cid=N00001669&cycle=2008

[hogwyld]

131. Why does everyone say that Joe doesn't have a boss?

His boss is US, the voters that have the ultimate say in whether he keeps his job or not.

[Freddie Stubbs]

161. And the voters of DE have sent him back to DC every six years by wide margins

[SOS]

128. Many fewer after the Bank of America purchase of MBNA

That's the thanks you get from these bloodsucking vampires.
Biden voted for the MBNA-authored bankruptcy bill.
Then MBNA sells out to Bank of America.
First thing Bank of America does is fire 1,500 Delaware workers.

[leftofthedial]

145. whores always get the shaft

[Freddie Stubbs]

165. What provision in the bankruptcy bill made it easier for Bank of America to buy MBNA?

:shrug:

[SOS]

179. None

Just pointing out that Biden supported this odious law and then his pals at MBNA sold out their employees in Delaware a year later.

[Freddie Stubbs]

181. If he had not supported that bill, would MBNA have been any less likely to do this?

:shrug:

[Lex]

5. Vote for McCain then.

It's Obama-Biden.

I don't agree with either one of them on every vote they've cast but I'm not going to whine about them. They are far better than the alternative.

[rurallib]

19. Bingo!

[Swamp Rat]

29. And dey gonna give McLame da HUGH smack-down!

:kick:

[DutchLiberal]

87. Cheap and predictable shot.

Classic response for a freeper who can't handle the truth.

[frogcycle]

6. Thanks for your concern

I think maybe your opinion is moot.

[Muttocracy]

7. It would be much better if Delaware's entire delegation was GOP!!!!!!

[mzmolly]

9. His voting record as a whole is not that of a "corporate Democrat."

He has a strong record on Labor. The AFLCIO gives him a 100% rating on his voting record.

[arthritisR_US]

28. ya but it's so much easier to take one vote and paint his career with it.

:banghead:

[clear eye]

62. And themiddleclass.org gave him 95% in 2008

for voting in the interests or ordinary people on:

FISA
residential fuel assistance program
Medicare payments for doctors
renewable energy
student loans
amendment to the bankruptcy law to exempt homes
exemption of small businesses & family farms from estate tax
foreclosure prevention
SCHIP
consumer product safety
affordable housing
veterans' benefits

[mzmolly]

75. Very nice

thanks!

[defendandprotect]

102. Now . .. there's some good news . . . he's pro-labor . . . .

[melody]

10. Senators do not represent themselves in the Senate

They represent their state. The decision on voting is not made by the Senator alone.

[defendandprotect]

104. They represent the CITIZENS of the state --- not corporate-state interests . . . .

...allegedly . . .

[melody]

123. You don't get this -- the choice is not his alone -- which you'd understand, were you a Democrat

Since you're a GOP-helping troll, you're to be ignored.

[defendandprotect]

147. If I disagree with you, I'm a Republican troll . . . ????

Nice try, but unfortunately opinions here are open to counter-opinions . . . .

AGAIN . . . . Biden is ELECTED BY CITIZENS . . . . NOT CORPORATIONS ---

It is citizens interests he is elected to protect ---

NOT corporate interests ---

Yes . . . corruption -- especially corporate corruption -- does lead to up is down

power plays ---

[melody]

156. If you get in the way of electing the Democratic ticket now, you're doing the work of the GOP

There's plenty of time before the ticket is solidified to express support for other candidates and arguments against anyone.
But now we have our ticket. They will win or the GOP will. The question is what you dislike more. It's there you'll cast
your vote.

[defendandprotect]

166. STOP with this fear-based crap ---

They'll be plenty of people "holding their nose" and voting for Democrats ---

but that doesn't require us to be brain-dead in discussions about candidates --

nor to lie about their past histories ---

Again, you're crying out for "hold your nose voting" ---

but in the meantime, you'll going to get truth ---



If you get in the way of electing the Democratic ticket now, you're doing the work of the GOP
There's plenty of time before the ticket is solidified to express support for other candidates and arguments against anyone.
But now we have our ticket. They will win or the GOP will. The question is what you dislike more. It's there you'll cast
your vote.

[melody]

168. You want truth -- you're dealing with SOCIOPATHS. You'd better be scared.

You say whatever "truth" you like. It's a free country.

I'll be over here meanwhile trying to kick the bastards out of the White House.

[defendandprotect]

169. I've been more than scared for 20 years+ . . . as fascism has risen in America . . .

Did you vote your way out of that by voting for Democrats --- ????

Do you understand the steals have been going on since the mid-1960's????

That's when the large computer counters used by media began to come in --


http://www.constitution.org/vote/votescam__.htm


Do you understand that the '63 coup on JFK was actually a coup on our government?

Do you think they would take a chance after than that voters would cast them out?

Do you understand the role that Nixon played ? He was hand-picked by Prescott Bush

and the GOP boys to run for office and put into the presidency.


Do you understand the threat of Global warming to humans and the planet?

And, do you understand the dissatisfaction with Pelosi/Reid and the 2006 "win" . . . ???


Basically, we've had right-wing political violence running the nation since '63 ---

and it's totally unacknowledged by the corporate-press ---

unacknowledged by the public --


You can ignore it all, but it's not going away --

[melody]

170. I understand all of this -- and I understand nothing will change until we get BushCo OUT

First you get ship, then you get moose and squirrel.

Humans are primates. We group into Alpha packs. It's not the ideal ... it's the reality. The best thing
we can do is work with the sanest, strongest group. And that's the Democrats. There will be plenty of time
for remodeling once the fire is out. Right now we have to save everything from the flames.

Enjoy your truth when McCain is in the White House.

[defendandprotect]

175. And you think that fear of truth works at ridding us of Bush?

Ask yourself HOW Bush got into office . . .

Do you think it had anything to do with Democrats or with a STEAL?

Until this pack of Democrats wakes up and move on in a BLOCK, there will be no

real solutions to Republican control of the Democratic Party.


Let me also suggest that you try to see all of this more as a fight for intelligent

control of the nation than a bear hunting event ---


STOP fighting truth -- it is truth which will set you free ---

[melody]

178. Oh, please.

When you find a perfect world to live in, let the rest of us know.

Till then, we'll all be living in this one.

Have your last word and enjoy your impractical idealism.

[defendandprotect]

180. Right . . . let's just throw up our hands and say . . ..

this is what we have so let's all make believe it's a good thing?

And let's make this about "perfect worlds" and "impractical idealism" -- and

not about legitimate questions about Biden's behavior.

And most of all "last words" because someone wants these discussions to stop now!

[fishwax]

12. that's a primary reason I couldn't really support him

for the nomination. But that aside, on the whole he's not really a corporate democrat, and I'm happy to have him on the ticket.

[IndianaGreen]

14. The alternative is McCain

Of course, I would love to have a truly proletariat political party in power, a vanguard of the working class, but we don't when we live in the heart of the beast.

Eye on the Prize

Barack Obama is not a left candidate. This fact has seemingly surprised a number of progressive people who are bemoaning Obama’s “shift to the center.” (Right-wingers are happy to join them, suggesting Obama is a “flip-flopper.”) It’s sad that some who seek progressive change are missing the forest for the trees. But they will not dampen the wide and deep enthusiasm for blocking a third Bush term represented by John McCain, or for bringing Obama by a landslide into the White House with a large Democratic congressional majority.

A broad multiclass, multiracial movement is converging around Obama’s “Hope, change and unity” campaign because they see in it the thrilling opportunity to end 30 years of ultra-right rule and move our nation forward with a broadly progressive agenda.

This diverse movement combines a variety of political currents and aims in a working coalition that is crucial to social progress at this point. At the core are America’s working families, of all hues and ethnicities, whose determination to move forward does not depend on, and will not be diverted by, the daily twists and turns of this watershed presidential campaign. They are taking the long view.

Notably, the labor movement has stepped up its independent mobilization for this election. It is leading an unprecedented campaign to educate and unify its ranks to elect the nation’s first African American president. Last week, AFL-CIO Secretary-Treasurer Richard Trumka told the Steelworkers convention that there is “no evil that’s inflicted more pain and more suffering than racism — and it’s something we in the labor movement have a special responsibility to challenge.”

If Obama’s candidacy represented nothing more than the spark for this profound initiative to unite the working class and defeat the pernicious influence of racism, it would be a transformative candidacy that would advance progressive politics for the long term.

The struggle to defeat the ultra-right and turn our country on a positive path will not end with Obama’s election. But that step will shift the ground for successful struggles going forward.

One thing is clear. None of the people’s struggles — from peace to universal health care to an economy that puts Main Street before Wall Street — will advance if McCain wins in November.

Let’s keep our eyes on the prize.

http://www.cpusa.org/article/articleview/975/1/147/

[defendandprotect]

167. The alternative we're quite familiar with --- "Hold your nose voting" . . .

and that's been going on for decades ---

THAT's what the discussion is about . . . let's get some progressive candidates ---

they bring out voters who aren't voting any more and they bring out new voters ---

and they inspire the base ---

[Matariki]

21. I wonder what the connection between Delaware and credit card companies play in this?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Delaware_corporation

[goodgd_yall]

132. Everything n/t

[rurallib]

23. You may find a better reception for this at freeperville

There were parts of that bill that did some good things for abandoned families among others. As usual with legislation at that republican time there were few really good pieces of legislation. In order to get anything done, some folk decided to accept the bad in order to get the good. Since the GOP has so politicized every vote in such a way that it can be used for negative campaigning or to advance corprotocracy, what do you want? No Dem should do anything? Imagine the campaigning on that.
Biden also comes from Delaware. Other posters have noted Delaware's unique situation. South Dakota is the same. Tom Daschle had a few like this also IIRC.
Feel free to try to tear us apart. But I think you are wasting your time.
You're time may be better spent at freerepublic bad mouthing McCain if you feel a need to stir up trouble.

[tokenlib]

42. All you have to do is say bankruptcy reform and Biden in a sentence to stir up trouble??

There is something to be said for holding democrats to account for bad legislation so they do not make the same mistake twice. Now that Biden is a national candidate--perhaps he will follow Obama's lead in seeking to stop the banks from dictating legislation through their friends in congress. People have a right to express themselves--and it is wrong to accuse people with legitimate concerns of "trying to tear us apart." But if people stay silent their voices will never be heard.

Telling people to shut up and directing them to the door will not bring victory in November. Obama and Biden need every democratic vote they can get.

[Tarheel_Dem]

49. Oh for pete's sake, would you please shut up. Your motive is becoming

crystal clear.

[Matariki]

130. You know, Tarheel Dem, you might want to stop telling people to 'shut up'

It's rude and it's lazy. This is a discussion board. If you don't like what's being said why don't you lay out your reasoning in a more intelligent and convincing way than 'shut up'.

You never addressed the issue brought up in the OP. It's not some unsubstantiated rumor, so just telling people to 'shut up' about it is ignorant at best.

Why don't you take the time to collect your thoughts and write an adult response. Maybe explain why you think it doesn't matter that he sponsored that bill, or whether it's being misunderstood.

These sort of issues will come up in the next 3 months, so it would be better if we talked about them and had a way to address them. Ignoring this stuff does nothing.

[Tarheel_Dem]

142. And my previous statement goes for you as well....nt

[Matariki]

144. Here's a link to DU's rules. You might want to re-familiarize yourself with the Civility section

http://www.democraticunderground.com/forums/rules_detailed.html

Do not hurl insults at other individual members of this message board. Do not tell someone, "shut up," "screw you," "fuck off," "in your face," or some other insult.

Telling people to 'shut up' is juvenile, rude and intellectually lazy. Don't you have anything better to offer than that?

[Tarheel_Dem]

153. My advice to you still stands. You might want to refamiliarize yourself

with the Ignore function.

[defendandprotect]

108. Biden just helped deregulate the credit card industry . .

FOR the corporations in his state of Delaware ---

And, we should also try to understand how much Democrats' ignoring reality actually turns

people off and spins them into not voting at all ---

Democrats cannot exist in denial of what's actually going on ---

This cannot be "party before country" as some wise poster here noted.

[depakid]

63. I'm sure freeperville just LOVES this legislation

It's their sort of law- and that's why people have problems with Democrats crossing over and voting for it- or in this case, being a major advocate for it.

Same holds true with financial deregulation that some Democrats (like Biden) also crossed over and voted for- and quite franky, one gets very tired of hearing rationalizations about why it's "necessary" for Democrats to keep supporting destructive right wing policies.

[defendandprotect]

106. Perhaps . . .

you should take that act somewhere else where free speech and reality are outlawed?

[arthritisR_US]

26. in 30 years in office and you think there won't be some votes you don't like? You

don't like Joe then vote McLame and see how far that advances you.

[savistocate]

50. see what it does for you..right, hi-jacked Social Security

certain. As young people it escapes notice..you can resent $$$ out of your checks, somehow not put it togetheryour grandma grandaddy older aunts uncles can get by
because they have paricipated..it has been kept alive. People in some professions more likely to get it med . social services etc. You would have that task/duty, unless a rich sibling could cover it or they themselves have amassed enough to last 15 20 yrs, or big enough pension. The vast majority of course have not, do not.

Biden did vote against CAFTA. That's a start..for reform--RE f o r m.

[DainBramaged]

51. NOTHING pisses me off more than fucking hit and run OP threads

where the author stands back and does not reply to criticism, just lets the pie burn.

What a stoopid comment.


Seems to me the long hiding Freeper lurkers may be coming out of the woodwork in one last gasp at sucking shit from the sewer.

PS no profile, so I am suspect, I don't care HOW long you've been here.

[Name removed]

64. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Fumesucker]

162. LOL.... Quoth the man with the "massive ignore list"... n/t

[Postman]

177. Here you go, you coward.

http://www.commondreams.org/archive/2008/08/24/11124/

Is Stephen Zunes a "freeper" also? Coward?.....

[clear eye]

54. Here's some info on his record you seem not to have

(from themiddleclass.org) <http://themiddleclass.org/legislator/joseph-biden-412>

He voted right, i.e. in favor of the well-being of ordinary citizens, on the following issues this year alone:

FISA
residential fuel assistance program
Medicare payments for doctors
renewable energy
student loans
amendment to the bankruptcy law to exempt homes
exemption of small businesses & family farms from estate tax
foreclosure prevention
SCHIP
consumer product safety
affordable housing
veterans' benefits

and a few others.

It's unfortunate you decided to make up your mind on his long career on the basis of almost no info.

[CreekDog]

55. i'm going to hide my answer since you have hidden your profile

:evilgrin:

[Bluebear]

58. Mercy me, I can see you batting your innocent eyelashes "asking" that question!

I have not been enamored of every Biden vote, but it *IS* Obama/Biden. What do you plan on doing, voting McCain?

[Starbucks Anarchist]

61. So you have one complaint out of his 35 years in the Senate?

[defendandprotect]

110. See Post #16 above . . . . which says this . . .

I also realize he voted "yea" on the Iraq War Resolution

I also realize he voted "yea" on the "bankruptcy protection act"

I also realize he voted "yea" on the Secure Fence Act of 2006

I also realize he played the key Senate role in deregulating the credit card industry

I also realize he has played the key "democratic" Senate role in the "war on drugs." (Al Gore "invented the Internet." Joe Biden invented the drug czar.)

I also realize he is a tool of Bank of America and other big banks. They have kept him in the Senate since Nixon was President.

that's by "leftofthedial" . . ..


and I'll add that Biden voted against late term abortions ---

wasn't that the "partial birth abortion" bill?

...while still saying that he strongly supports Roe vs Wade!

[laylah]

70. Hit and run...nt

[NNN0LHI]

76. Preying on the weak minded I see

That is Rove tactics at their finest.

Rain or shine the bullshit must get through eh Postman?

Don

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

77. Biden's record is now off-limits lest the cheerleaders become frightened.

[NNN0LHI]

79. Want to discuss his record reply to this post

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=3846630&mesg_id=3846630

You can always find some votes with any Dem that someone won't like. But doing so while ignoring their entire record is just playing into the Repigs hands.

We used to be smarter than that around here.

Don

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

80. I'll settle for his vote to suport Bush's war as evidence enough.

[NNN0LHI]

81. As evidence of what?

That he is not worthy of your vote?

Is that what you are saying?

Don

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

82. As evidence that his much praised "foreign policy experience" is bullshit.

Do you think I owe Biden my vote?

[NNN0LHI]

83. I don't think he was going to get your vote no matter how he voted

Thats what I think.

Don

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

85. Really?

Will I meet a beautiful princess?

[defendandprotect]

111. So you're saying we should be overjoyed because Biden isn't McCain?????

This is from msg #16 above by "left of the dial" ....


I also realize he voted "yea" on the Iraq War Resolution

I also realize he voted "yea" on the "bankruptcy protection act"

I also realize he voted "yea" on the Secure Fence Act of 2006

I also realize he played the key Senate role in deregulating the credit card industry

I also realize he has played the key "democratic" Senate role in the "war on drugs." (Al Gore "invented the Internet." Joe Biden invented the drug czar.)

I also realize he is a tool of Bank of America and other big banks. They have kept him in the Senate since Nixon was President.


and I'll add that Biden voted against late term abortions while also suggesting he strongly
supports Roe vs Wade!

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

113. Ssssh!! You're disturbing the cheerleaders.

[LanternWaste]

115. I imagine that reasonable discourse contrasting his votes

I imagine that reasonable discourse contrasting his votes will still be allowed (all melodramatic posturing aside).

However, I also think that concern trolls posting in such a fashion as to avoid banning will (and should) still get called on it. One does not either preclude or deny the other...

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

120. As long as it doesn't require blindfolds.

Biden did vote with the Republicans on a number of occasions and should have those votes questioned as part of his qualifications as VP or possible president.

While I'm not surprised that Obama is relying on politics-as-usual to push his campaign, it doesn't mean that I have to approve of it, or applaud it.

[LanternWaste]

164. More often than not, blind folds are merely inferred...

More often than not, blind folds are merely inferred rather than actually existing.

[lonestarnot]

78. Yes he did vote for the BK bill, but because of this vote you'd prefer a lumpy McSame for 4 years?

Maybe instead of posting the reminder, you should consider a letter to Biden and see if he intends to do anything about this legislation and remember which party has created all the fucking bankruptcies in the first place due to lack of jobs, mortgage meltdown etc.

[MisterP]

173. you criticize Pelosi: does that mean youd've preferred speaker Harold Ford? (just rhetorically) n/t

[WA98296]

88. AND he helped to carry water for the bill as well. Very disturbing to populist values.

[LanternWaste]

89. Rhetorical question prettily wrapped in Concern packaging...

Rhetorical question prettily wrapped in Concerned packaging, complete with ribbons and bows.

Here's a question that is not rhetorical. What is the precise and relevant definition of a "corporate" Democrat. On what is that peer-reviewed definition based?

[defendandprotect]

112. Certainly points up my "concerns" . . . !

[ElsewheresDaughter]

90. Biden voted for IWR too

just saying

[Froward69]

91. His bankruptcy vote is

only a negative for Dems.

TOTAL positive for rethugs!!!
same with RAVE.

[Stop Cornyn]

127. Not for middle class Republicans -- it's a class issue as much as a party issue

[Orsino]

135. Well, I don't think the Republicans will be bringing it up.

But it is a stain on the Democratic Party's record. That piece of crap should never have come up for a vote.

[Froward69]

140. Agreed

but it still happened if it does come up... you can shut them up by agreeing.

[defendandprotect]

92. Biden has said he strongly supports Roe v. Wade but also voted in favor of a bill to ban late-term a

Biden has said he strongly supports Roe v. Wade but also voted in favor of a bill to ban late-term abortions, prompting abortion rights groups to downgrade him on their report cards.

You cannot "strongly support Roe vs Wade" and then vote against late term abortions ---

consider the article recently posted here about a woman who had to undergo such a procedure

and that's only ONE of the many, many stories of those difficult decisions and difficult

pregnancies. What arrogance!

This is the supposed "center" . . . . as usual a delusion.

[clear eye]

139. Roe v. Wade is not a complete cover for freedom of choice

That court decision specifically says that it protects choice until the fetus is considered "viable"(i.e. able to live outside the mother's womb with help), which is generally considered to be ~28 weeks. Medical advances keep creating pressure to make that point earlier. Whether or not Biden's position agrees with most proponents of freedom of choice, it is not inconsistent to say that one fully supports Roe v. Wade and vote against the right to late-term abortion. Biden is too experienced to misrepresent his votes.

Things that almost all of us can agree we like about Biden--and distinguish him from real corporatists:

1) He has opposed any privatization of Social Security (I'm not sure the rest of Obama's short list were that solid on the issue).
2) He supports living wage laws/increases to the minimum wage.
3) He firmly supports right to organize bills whenever they come up.
4) He was out front giving cover to progressives trying to stop the dangerous and hugely expensive "Star Wars" missile defense program, a favorite of the military-industrial complex, back when the only people listening were the Progressive Caucus(and not even all of them) and the Union of Concerned Scientists. He hasn't wavered from that position in 16 years, giving opposition a more mainstream cast.
5) He's consistently supported expanding, rather than reducing, SCHIP.
7) He voted to increase payments to physicians for Medicare services, despite pressure to decrease those payments.
8) He voted to strengthen consumer product safety law.
9) He voted against CAFTA.
10)He's voted for safety net programs like increasing Veteran's benefits and residential fuel assistance.

Then there is his FISA vote. He voted against the "compromise" bill.

More controversial is the issue of Iraq. His position for the last few years regarding the Iraq war has been better than most, and he has openly apologized for his vote to give Bush the option to use force. Since he was chair of the Committee on Foreign Relations, and had originally supported a clearer measure requiring the exhaustion of diplomatic efforts before any consideration of force, it is reasonable to believe him when he says he expected to be consulted before the decision to go ahead with force was made, and that he counseled the Bush administration not to start a civil war (by discharging the entire Iraqi military) and not to engage in an extended occupation.

Aside from his excellence as a campaigner, there are solid reasons to take satisfaction in Obama's choice.

[defendandprotect]

148. Late term abortions are dangerous for the female . . . .

THAT is why they have a protected status --- and medical approval is required.

These abortions are done for MEDICAL reasons so the age of the fetus would be irrelevant ---
as long as the required HEALTH and welfare of the female standards are upheld.

Again . . . the later into the pregnancy, the more DANGEROUS this is for the female.

Unfortunately, voting for "partial birth abortion" which I think is more realistically
called "partial truth abortion" is NOT consistent with Roe vs Wade, nor supportive of it.

Any more than voting for the "Runaway Slave Act" was consistent with an Abolitionist
position--!!!

Biden is too experienced to misrepresent his votes == ??? !!!!

You're saying that Biden never lies or does anything for political reasons . . . ???
Wow . . . what unique and naive trust -- !!!


I don't much support ideals of "he's better than most" ---

Biden voted for the Iraq War --- which is counter to Obama's supposed standing on it ---

He's voted to refund it ---

There's the Bankruptcy bill which he gave leadership to ---

And, I don't think he either supports impeachment ---

while I have never seen an administration more impeachable --- !!!


and from post #16, above . . .

I also realize he voted "yea" on the Iraq War Resolution

I also realize he voted "yea" on the "bankruptcy protection act"

I also realize he voted "yea" on the Secure Fence Act of 2006

I also realize he played the key Senate role in deregulating the credit card industry

I also realize he has played the key "democratic" Senate role in the "war on drugs." (Al Gore "invented the Internet." Joe Biden invented the drug czar.)

I also realize he is a tool of Bank of America and other big banks. They have kept him in the Senate since Nixon was President.

that's by "leftofthedial" . . ..

[clear eye]

172. You're preaching to choir about late-term abortion

I'm personally entirely pro-choice and resent legislative interference in any abortion choice. Please clarify why you repeat that voting against the right to late-term abortion is inconsistent with Roe v. Wade. I think even NARAL would disagree. They know that Roe v. Wade is not the be-all and the end-all regarding choice.

Of course Biden's done things "for political reasons", and all humans at least occasionally lie. I stand by my statement that he's too experienced at this point to misrepresent his votes. That stuff'll bite you in the back.

The Iraq vote really is more complicated than you're making it. It does matter that he's openly apologized for that vote repeatedly in the last few years, that he originally wrote and supported an amendment for the IWR that would have required extensive diplomatic efforts and a return to the UN before any use of force would be permitted. Powell convinced Biden that as chair of the Foreign Relations Committee, he would be consulted by the administration before any use of force. Maybe like almost all politicians he has an inflated sense of his importance--he has repeatedly represented the U.S. with the protaganists in conflicts abroad--so he believed Powell. When Bush made it clear he was going to war, Biden counseled him not to start a civil war (by, for instance, disbanding the entire Iraqi military) and not to engage in an extended occupation. He has also voted for the timelines, and for resolutions to end the conflict. Yes, he hasn't been out front on cutting off the funding but given the balance of power in the Senate, he likely felt that would have been nothing more than grandstanding anyway.

Since impeachment takes place in the House we don't know the position of any Senator on it unless I've missed something. If you have links to info about a Senator declaring that he would vote to convict if the House voted to impeach, I would love to see it. It would do my heart good. That sort of thing is one reason I miss Sen. Wellstone terribly.

The bankruptcy bill is his worst sin, in my eyes, but even there he recently voted to exempt homes from inclusion in assets for bankruptcy.

I looked at the others in the short list, and most of them think it's necessary to mess with Social Security rather than simply to restore the money that was stolen from it. So. When I see Biden, with the many pro-people votes and positions in his record, including some against the military-industrial complex's favorite boondoggles, I am very relieved.

Just curious, who did you prefer?

[clear eye]

174. He HAS Threatened Impeachment if Bush Attacks Iran

<http://rawstory.com/news/2007/Biden_to_try_impeachment_if_Bush_1130.html>

which is the only thing I've heard from any Senator on the issue.

[unblock]

97. unfortunately, any senator from delaware must bow to the credit card companies

hopefully that says nothing about what he'd be like as veep.

[Vickers]

105. Yea, another Purity Test!!!!!

:thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:









:eyes:

[jillan]

107. That's fair - BUT tell me who you would've preferred and then let's take a look at their voting

record.

I'm sure their's is spotless - right?

[Odin2005]

116. I look at a politician's whole career, I don't obsess over individual votes

I get rather pissed off by the tendency of DUers from going from idolizing someone to demonizing that person over a vote or two in the past 8 years, it's moronic black-and-white thinking. A good example is Nancy Pelosi, who is a perfectly good progressive, but is demonized as if she was Joe Lieberman just because her stance on impeachment, it's ridiculous.

[Stop Cornyn]

117. There are worse Democrats in the Senate, but none who were under consideration for VP. This ad will

leave a mark:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RoJUcsaptW4

I'm still going to vote for Obama, of course, but his VP pick has ended my confidence in his campaign's basic competence and it undermines mt previously strong belief that Obama shares my values.

[hvn_nbr_2]

118. I read a poll that said 63% of Americans are one-issue voters on the bankruptcy bill.

Well, uh, actually, I would believe a poll that said 93% of Americans never heard of the bankruptcy bill.

This long-time, single-minded focus on obscure single-issue votes starts to look rather disingenuous after awhile.

I absolutely can never support any politician that didn't co-sponsor the bill for subsidies for organic alfalfa sprouts grown in lower Latrobe County. Anyone who didn't support that is a tool of Big Farma.

[depakid]

137. The larger issue of financial deregulation -and credit card and mortgage company abuses

which have wrecked the economy might be of a bit more concern to corporate Dems who went along quite willingly with Republicans in the process.

Kinda takes that issue off of the table, eh -when you've voted for the abuses yourself.

[defendandprotect]

149. True . . . another issue made moot by the taking on of Biden . . .

[timtom]

122. WOW!

Talk about groupthink....

This is just about as bad as "the site that shall not be named".

(I'm not really replying to the OP. I'm replying to the "lockstep" threats and freep call-outs.

Independent thinking? Buh-bye.

[emulatorloo]

126. The only politician I agree with 100% is myself. But I'm not running for anything EOM

[Lorien]

157. He did. But the corporate media won't allow a non- corporate candidate

I don't think that there's any way around that, ever.

[karynnj]

163. He did, but he is not running for President

No Senator, Governor or person will be right on every issue. That bill is one negative thing about Biden and it doesn't eliminate his excellent credentials in other ares.

Also, given that you wanted Kuchinich or Edwards for PRESIDENT, why should that be a problem? Edwards voted for the 2001 version.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=132&topic_id=3740291#3740305 If you could look pass it on the Presidence choice, why is VP a problem?

[mdmc]

171. still better then mccain

:shrug: