why is it that, after so many years of working to have gender-neutral language, we STILL

[niyad]

have to see "Speaker Pelosi, Permanent chairMAN of DNC

and other such similar patriarchal usages that we worked so hard to be rid of? is it annoying anybody besides me?

[trof]

1. Our Dem club just says 'chair'.

[Debi]

2. Why not just use the word 'Chair' of the Convention? n/t

[niyad]

14. precisely my point

[slackmaster]

3. I've heard "Chair of the DNC" and that sounds fine to me

Old habits are hard to extinguish.

[ben_meyers]

4. And what about them MANhole covers? n/t

[trof]

7. And MANhandling someone.

;-)

[Marr]

21. They're all over Manhattan. Coincidence?

I don't think so. We need personhole covers in Personhattan.

[TahitiNut]

62. Can we imagine the furor if we still had grammatical gender like Spanish, French, German ...

:eyes:

[Lance_Boyle]

5. until you get rid of "man" as a gender-neutral synonym for "human(kind)"

you will continue to see this. And yes, you are probably among an EXTREME minority bothered by it.

[niyad]

15. heaven forfend that we should notice such sexist things, eh? after all, since, according to so many

on these boards alone, there really is no such thing as sexism. how silly of me.

[Lance_Boyle]

24. Refering to the chairman as the chairman is sexist?

Get over yourself.

[niyad]

26. Speaker Pelosi is NOT a man, in case you hadn't noticed.

[musette_sf]

18. i'm bothered by it

i do not believe for one minute that if the collective word for humans was "woman", men would not be driven batsh!t crazy about it in large numbers.

"man" and "mankind" are NOT gender-neutral, and the older i get, the more it bugs me. i used to be able to be okay with it, but as time goes on not so much.

[Obamanaut]

50. Perhaps "hu***" to replace "human" nt

[bean fidhleir]

57. No, we went through this 35 years ago - more than a whole generation

NO FEMINIST wants anyone to do mindless substring replacement. There is no connection even in proto-Indo-Europan between the latin-origin "human" and the germanic-origin "man", so there's no need to do anything ridiculous like change it to "huperson".

All we have ever wanted is for men (not all men, but always men) to be their age and act as though they give a damn about something other than their dicks.

[Obamanaut]

66. I was not serious. The whole argument is, IMO, ridiculous. What

harm, exactly, is there in calling whoever is holding the gavel a 'chairman?' We have eyes, we can tell if it is a woman or man. It is, after all, a word we have long used and it is not really a hurtful word.

I read in another post that it will be a great day when we can look at a new president and see not a black man, but a man. That too, is ridiculous. If it is a Black man, an Asian man, a Hispanic woman, we will be able to see that and to say we don't is absurd. What is more important is that it no longer makes a difference as to appearance but instead they have been selected, judged, chosen based on the "...content of their character..."

As to your second paragraph. Ease up.

[TahitiNut]

63. Consider the horror of the word "perSON".

:eyes:

[Hekate]

73. I think we did manage to do that, and that was important.

Other than that, there's a lot of stuff that doesn't bother me and I try not to be rude about it, you know what I mean? (I've been a feminist since, I don't know, maybe 1967 or 1970.) "Chair" is easy but not everyone has caught up with that and it's not worth stopping a meeting for to correct. (I was Chair of the County Affirmative Action Commission for a number of years. One of my colleagues once chastised a very nice visitor for calling the women of the commission "you gals". He didn't mean any harm and it was colloquial.)

We've made a lot of progress, we really have. We women almost had a presidential nominee and we do have a Speaker of the House. Michelle Obama went to a terrific college and Barack Obama is the Democratic nominee for the presidency. Not bad. Not bad at all.

Hekate

[Cooley Hurd]

6. Personally, there are bigger fish to fry, presently...

...but I wholeheartedly agree that we SHOULD get past it.:thumbsup:

[Boojatta]

8. Everybody knows that Speaker Pelosi isn't a man, so not much confusion arises.

Aren't you more concerned about the expression "Chinaman Mao"? Taken literally, it suggests that Mao was Chinese and/or an adult male.

[mainegreen]

9. Did you know in french, everything has a gender?

That must make your head explode.

[niyad]

16. no, actually it doesn't. we are talking about english here, and the specific uses of language.

[uppityperson]

42. besides, just another example of why to hate the French & english is official bureaucratic usa langu

:sarcasm:

[FLAprogressive]

10. holy hell does this really matter?

I'm more worried about Iraq, health care, etc. then "gender-neutral language".

[Lex]

11. Yes, we can only worry about Iraq. Everything else is not worth caring about.

:eyes:

[FLAprogressive]

12. I just think we have more pressing matters to concern ourselves with

[Lex]

22. Well you prioritize a list for us and post it

so we won't be confused.

[niyad]

13. you know, people can be concerned about more than one thing at a time (well, some of us, anyway)

and patriarchy is at the root of all the other things we are concerned about, so, no, gender-neutral language is NOT an insignificant factor.

[Boojatta]

17. Can we be concerned about chess, or would that be one thing too many?

[niyad]

19. naked, strip, or 3-d, or wizard?

[Boojatta]

32. What kind of chess do you recommend?

[niyad]

20. talking gender neutral blues

I was walkin down the street one day
Reading the signs that passed my way
And after a while I started to see
That none of those words referred to me...
Good will towards men, all men are created equal,
Praise Him!
Well I asked some friends if they agreed
That they felt left out in the things they read
They told me yes, and added some more
And soon we all felt pretty sore
You got your Congressman, spaceman, sideman....
But I never heard a no house husband!
Well some men came by and a fight began to grow:
"You girls are so dumb you just don't know,
These here are called "generic words"
They're meant to include both the bees and the birds."
Well gee fellas, how am I supposed to know?
I certainly don't feel included!
Ok said I, if that's so true,
I'll just use "woman" to cover the two
"It don't make a difference to us," they said
"If you wanna use woman, go right ahead."
I said, thanks, that's really sisterly of you
Glad to see you believe in sportswomanship!
"Now hold your horses," they started to cry.
I think I'll hold my mares, said I.
"You're leavin all of us guys behind."
Why no, we're all part of womankind.
So don't fret friends, take it like a woman
You'll get used to it, just like we all did!
words and music by Kristin Lems c MCMLXXIX Kleine Ding Music (BMI)

[FLAprogressive]

25. Looks like some people don't have anything better to do...

...except whine about Pelosi being called a "chairman".

It's no wonder right-wing nuts paint us as "PC freaks".

[Lex]

27. How the hell do you know they aren't doing other things too?

"PC" is a term that makes morons feel better about being racist and sexist and homophobic.

[Scout]

28. that's probably because YOUR gender isn't the one missing from the english language n/t

[riverdeep]

23. I agree, there are bigger issues to consider.

Therefore, since it doesn't really matter whether we use specifically masculine terms to denote females, i.e. they shouldn't take offense, we can henceforth use feminine terms to denote men. We've been going with the masculine for a while now, maybe it's time to switch off. Men got the last millennium, women can have the present one. And so on.

"Howard Dean, chairwoman of the DNC." What's to get upset about?

I agree with the OP that a language as flexible and creative as the modern English, that creates new words at an astonishing rate- even awkward, ugly words like 'blog' that come into wide usage- that if a language like that doesn't generate a neutral term for, say, his/her, it's by design.

[Scout]

30. eeeeeexxxxxxcellent! n/t

[Scout]

29. thank you Uncle Bonsai: Women with a Y

Women With A "Y" (Womyn)

Jesus was a woman
Jesus must have been a woman
Only women really suffer
Only women know such pain
Helen Reddy was a goddess
Even though she was Australian
She acted like a goddess
When she started her campaign

Adam was an asshole
Adam must have been an asshole
'Cause he couldn't satisfy
The only woman in the place
Eve was certainly devoted
As he plundered and persisted
Never thought if she resisted
She could save the women's face

And as Adam demonstrated
As he blindly penetrated
Eve would simply had to take it lying down
She just couldn't see the trappings
That the men had under wrappings
'til they blamed her
And they ran her out of town

Get the man out of the woman
Get the man out of mankind
Take the man down from the mantle
Leave the manful talk behind
While the men are on maneuvers
Let the mantras fill the sky
Make the world a place for women
Women with a "y"

Mary was a martyr
Mary must have been a martyr
'Cause her God in all his wisdom
Wouldn't look her in the eyes
So he took her and he left her
With some jackass in a stable
While he boasted of the conquest
To the other holy guys

So the man takes his position
With the woman in submission
'Cause the bible says
That's how they do it here
So the woman falls from favor
All because some horny savior
Showed that man could come just once
And disappear

Take the man out of the woman
Take the man from manicure
You can take the man from manger
You can leave him in manure
While the men are being manly
Leave the man-o-wars behind
Make the world a place for women
Women with a "Y"

Intercourse - We don't have to have no
Intercourse - An activity we can't endorse
We don't need to multiply
Intercourse - It's a law they simply can't enforce
We are more than just a hobby horse
We are women with a "Y"

Take the man out of the woman
Send the men to Mandalay
While the men are trying to manage
Throw the manacles away
While the men are stuck on manhood
Find a man to crucify
Make the world a place for women
Women with a "Y"

[GoneOffShore]

31. Oh boy -

:eyes:

[Cerridwen]

33. I would remind you, niyad, that when we discuss language,

we confine ourselves to concerns over the proper use of Democrat versus Democratic. That we focus on the negative connotation promoted by the corporate press and the neocons, of the word liberal.

We may, on occasion, discuss framing the issues as pertains to aforementioned Democrats and liberals.

But we must never, never, waste time discussing those same language issues with regard to women. After all, it impacts solely women and as such, is of lesser concern to larger, and therefore more encompassing issues confronting liberals and Democrats of the, mostly, male persuasion.

The same of course applies to lesbian, gay, bi-sexual, trans-gendered or tran-sexual people. We must focus on the way in which language is damaging to white, heterosexual males if we are to remain mainstream.

As I'm sure you will on occasion notice, "mann coulter," "male-crush," "butt boy," bitch, ho, and whore (among others) are perfectly acceptable words and phrases to use as they are only "negative" or "epithets" when we use them against our enemies. Surely our allies, the aforementioned people, must understand that just because we think those particular things so heinous and offensive that they are appropriate attacks against "them," their offensiveness is washed clean with regard to women, lesbian, gay, bi-sexual, trans-gendered or tran-sexual people on "our" side. (~Cerridwen's note: if you tracked that "logic," please let me know because I think a couple of my brain cells shorted out while typing it.)

So, please, niyad, do remember the "larger" picture and the "greater" cause. I promise someone will address our issues...just as soon as they get around to it.


(Anyone here really need this? :sarcasm: ? If so, how many should I have used?)

[omega minimo]

37. I was gonna say...........

"(Anyone here really need this? :sarcasm: ? If so, how many should I have used?)"


Subtle, Cerridwen, way subtle. :evilgrin:

It's also "true" -- a great parody of how things really are. This OP was answered quickly: Use "Chair" -- no big deal.

"...must understand that just because we think those particular things so heinous and offensive that they are appropriate attacks against "them,"

The twisted logic is due to the fact that the whole dominant paradigm thing has outlived its usefulness.

[Cerridwen]

38. You were gonna fire both barrels, weren't you?!

:rofl:

The biggest problem with my "subtlety" is many people don't quite get it. :evilgrin:

What I would add to your sentence about "twisted logic" is that it's truly not "twisted." It is in fact, in many cases, the way the person using those words and phrases feels about that particular issue. But, being a liberal/progressive/Democratic board, they don't dare say them aloud and so target their fear/hatred against the "enemy" and get "a pass" on their homophobia/misogyny/etc. by saying, "but, but, I only mean it about "them". To which I reply, HORSESHIT! They found a nice "safe" way to let their prejudice out and now they're squirming to get out of being called on it.

But, as with all my posts, that is "just" my, never very humble, opinion.

P.S. Good to talk with you again, omega.

[omega minimo]

69. both what?

....:wow:
:bounce::bounce:

[Scout]

49. Brava! Bravissima!! n/t

[UTUSN]

34. Why does one of my flamers get away with calling me "panties in a wad"?!1 n/t

[Cerridwen]

35. Same reason some nit in another thread can respond "nice tits"? n/t

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

56. Oh Man Don't Tell Me Your Panties Are STILL In A Wad. Holy Cow You Need To Learn To Let Things Go.

:rofl:

[UTUSN]

67. Your profile blurb & sig line point to your self-delusion:

********QUOTE**********

It's all about integrity, respect, honesty, decency, open mindedness, fairness, and genuine desire to wish good upon all. That is why I'm a liberal.

We're all fighting the good fight. Always remember that we're in this together, and I fight proudly beside you. Never let keyboard bullies bring you down, for we are stronger than they

*********UNQUOTE*********

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

68. Nothing Deluded About It. The Words Are Sound And They're Exactly Why I'm A Liberal.

Still don't believe your panties are still so tightly wadded days later though. Pretty soon you're gonna make a panty diamond.

:rofl:

[magellan]

36. It annoys me that the same attention isn't given to

...the exclusionary language of faith in government...which is equally destructive to women's rights, if not more so because of its greater reach.

[Book Lover]

39. Dear God, what about the men!

http://blog.iblamethepatriarchy.com/

[entanglement]

40. "Chairman" is no longer considered exclusively "male"; it is appropriate for either

gender.

[uppityperson]

43. Indeed. As a middle aged woman, it's fine with me as "chairman", applied equally to both sexes becom

becomes gender neutral. Rather like waiter, or actor.

[noamnety]

45. Actually, studies show that not to be true.

In career counseling studies, they found that the language DOES make a difference to children, when asked which careers they'd like to have when they grow up.

If you give them a multiple choice survey with options like chairman on it, the girls will avoid that option.
If you give the same multiple choice survey with options like chairperson, the results become gender neutral.

The vision that kids conjure up when they read "chairman" is NOT gender neutral - they conjure up a vision of a man, and make that mental connection that this is not a job for people like me. It affects gender stereotyping from a young age, which is the main reason I think it's important.

This is why the APA manual (from the American Psychological Association) specifies gender neutral language - because they have studied the effects of language and determined that it DOES make a real difference: http://owl.english.purdue.edu/owl/resource/608/05/

[uppityperson]

47. well then, I bet "chair" really confuses them. I was speaking as me.

"As a middle aged woman, it's fine with me as "chairman", applied equally to both sexes becom
becomes gender neutral. Rather like waiter, or actor."

I guess no kids want to become a chair then?

[noamnety]

54. I don't think there's a difference between genders

when you use the word chair, though it probably would require an explanation depending on vocabulary. The gendered word chairman, however, carries with it an image, even IF you add a disclaimer.

The issue is that studies have consistently shown that the use of gendered language DOES result in gendered biases in how children view their future career options. Knowing that, I don't know why a middle-aged woman would say that's of no significance, as long as she (the middle-aged woman) isn't affected by it.

In my opinion, to be blunt, the impact gendered language has in placing perceptual limitations on girls is far more important than any impact it has on you personally. If there's no impact on you, why not just use the neutral language? And for god's sake, why complain that other people are trying to create a world where girls aren't marginalized in certain careers? What possible harm could that cause you?

[uppityperson]

71. lwfern, I'm not complaining, just stating my opinion, expressing my thoughts.

I am sorry that you take that as complaining or any of the other stuff in your post that you are assuming about me and my statements of my opinion. I think we are on the same side with a lot of what you write, but I hesitate to spend more time explaining more or discussing more here with you as you seem to want to attack me and fight with me. Off to read up on Gustav for a bit before heading out on a bike ride.

[readmoreoften]

41. The Latin origin of MAN is "being with hands". Woman is "wife of being with hands."

I'd rather be called a chairman than a chairwoman. I'd also prefer to be called a speaker rather than a speaktress.

[uppityperson]

44. A smurf than a smurfette.

An actor than an actress.

[noamnety]

46. What's wrong with chairperson?

http://www.higheredjobs.com/details.cfm?JobCode=175329671

[TahitiNut]

64. ... or chairperdaughter?

:eyes:

[lukasahero]

52. Speaker is gender neutral

Chairman/chairwoman is not. Why is "chair" so hard?

[bean fidhleir]

58. Actually, those appear to be from different IE roots - just spelled the same now

edit: The "those" being "man" (person) and "man-" (hand)

[Maureen1322]

48. Will calling her a more PC name make her a better Speaker.

No, she'll still suck.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

51. More women seem to take offence at "chair" or "chairwoman" than at "chairman".

At least among Cambridge students/academics (admittedly, not a represenative sample of the populace).

There's no way of telling beforehand which, if any, form a given woman is going to prefer.

Given that some people take offence at each of them, it seems something of a non-issue.

[Iggo]

53. In this case, gender neutral seems forced to me.

Gender specific seems more straightforward. I don't have a problem with saying Chairman for a man and Chairwoman for a woman. I guess over time I could get used to just saying Chair. But Chairperson doesn't work for me.

My hypocricy shines through, though, in the fact that I stopped using the word Actress when I was a teenager.

[noamnety]

55. That's just habit.

Once you say it a few times, it starts to seem normal.

I think the same is true for many deliberate language shifts that have occurred over time when people finally recognized that certain words were having a negative impact on various groups. First, it's a conscious thing, every time you self-filter a word that others have objected to. I've done that myself, because we all grow up in a bubble of one sort or another. For me, I grew up with "Indians" - and had to make a conscious shift to Native American when I got educated a bit better. Better for me to feel awkward a few times and stumble over a new word, than to be willfully perpetuating a phrase that's causing problems.

Not that I have any problem with the use of "chair" - just explaining that chairperson is better than chairman/chairwoman, as if their gender is part of the job description. There are a number of reasons why those are poor choices.

[dysfunctional press]

59. how annoying is it for you to be a member of the huMAN race?

:shrug:

[bean fidhleir]

60. That's a substring and TOTALLY IRRELEVANT TO THE ISSUE

The "-man" substring in human has NO RELATIONSHIP to the word "man".

[dysfunctional press]

61. the last three letters of the word human is MAN.

not exactly gender neutral for those types that like to get their panties in a bunch over such nonsense.

[bean fidhleir]

65. Right, and "imagination" has to do with booze because of the "gin" in it

Furrfu!

[apocalypsehow]

70. I've wept buckets of tears for days worrying about that #1 pressing issue facing America.

( :eyes: )

[Dem2theMax]

72. I made it easy on myself, a 52 year old woman.

I have a gender-neutral brain. When someone says "Chairman," my brain thinks "person in charge," not, "oh no, is that a male or a female they are referring to?" It's absolutely amazing how easy it is to do this. I was lucky enough to be born into a home where no distinctions were made about race, gender, sexual preference, religion, etc.

I just see a whole bunch of humans, living together on planet Earth. :)

If I were the chairman of something, I would be proud to be chairman. I wouldn't be mad that I wasn't called 'chairwoman.'

But when someone refers to me as Ma'am......AAAAARRRRRGGGGGGG! I am NOT that OLD. Yet! LOL.