Atlantic Monthly reader:"The heroes I knew in my youth from WW2 & Korea never said a word about it"

[Bluebear]

A reader writes on McCain's POW refrain:


This morning you noted that McCain’s constant POW self-references have assumed clinical proportions; I don’t know if he’s clinical, but he’s certainly cynical. Real heroes don’t go on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on about their own heroism – particularly in order to satisfy personal ambition like this:

"I didn't decide to run for president to start a national crusade for the political reforms I believed in or to run a campaign as if it were some grand act of patriotism. In truth, I wanted to be president because it had become my ambition to be president. . . . In truth, I'd had the ambition for a long time." – John McCain, "Worth the Fighting For”, 2002.

The heroes I knew in my youth – the guys who came back from WWII and Korea – never said a word about it. Our family friend Ernie, who had been a German POW for three years after being shot down; the only way I ever learned about that is that someone else told me – not Ernie. My dad – 100 missions over North Africa, Italy, France and Germany, three confirmed kills and the Distinguished Flying Cross - never a word about the war; no, I take that back: on his deathbed, when we were alone, he struggled up out of his delirium for a moment and looked at me and said “War is the stupidest thing human beings do.” Almost the last thing he ever said.

We’ve all spent years psychoanalyzing Bush and his oedipal drama, his need to out-do his old man – what about McCain and his 4-star admiral father and 4-star admiral grandfather: think there might be any oedipal ambition there? Do we need four more years of this?

http://andrewsullivan.theatlantic.com/the_daily_dish/2008/08/not-clinical-cy.html

[TexasObserver]

1. Agreed. One of my dear teenaged friend's father had been a POW in WWII

He was a quiet, contemplative man who never once talked about it, or even showed that his life had been less than perfect. He worked at the local newspaper, an unassuming man who spent several years in a POW camp.

I still have to drag stories of war out of the remaining WWII vets around. They're a generation older than me, and I've tried the past ten years to get each to talk about their war years. I think they sense the importance of passing their stories on, and seem more open to discussing them now.

[FirstLight]

2. KICK'd & REC'd

Thank you for this - It is a valid point. Even vietnam vets, and gulf war vets...will mention their veteran statu, but little else. It is hard to talk about war to people when they have never known confinement or the sheer brutailty of it. I can only imagine, and it horrifies me that we have such a thing happening on the planet RIGHT NOW

I had a cousin who was never the same after 'nam and it cost him his wife & daughter, they fled from him for thier own safety, and we never saw or heard from them again. He is now recovered (alcohol and maybe other stuf but nobody would ever talk about it...I am only hearing things now from my mom because it wasn't spoken of back then...) and lives well, has remarried, but never had any more kids...

My dad served inKorea, and all I ever heard were a few funny train and beer stories from their weekends in Tokyo...I never even realized until about a minth ago when I was doing research and my mom told me he had been on the ground, in the jungle of japan.

I am sure he will never reveal much more...


war is hell, let's hurry up and create Heaven already!

[Ashy Larry]

3. John McCain's father

Given the fact that John S. McCain, Jr. served as Commander-in-Chief of the U.S. Pacific Command from 1968 to 1972, would it be fair to say that John McCain lost the war in Vietnam?

[lynnertic]

6. Honestly, no.

But it's a funny thought.

[DCKit]

4. A dear friend of mine, whom I've known for 16 years...

just told me a couple of months back that he'd fought at the Battle of the Bulge. One of the other two WWII vets I know (currently) *once* mentioned he'd been a pilot and the third has never said a word about his service, though I did see some framed service documents in his apartment.

The people I knew in my childhood, including one grandfather, only ever talked about their service on rare occasions, and the Vietnam vets I've known, though few, never spoke of it at all.

Yeah, there's a hell of a difference. Every one of the men (and one WAC) I've ever known personally - and consider to be highly honorable people - never brought it up in casual conversation, let alone every available opportunity.

Geez, now you guys got me thinking that being a former POW is all McCain's got.

[yellowdogintexas]

18. same with my dad. Bronze Star in the Bulge. Never talked about it unless

someone brought it up and then he never said much.

[WritersBlock]

5. My uncle survived the Palawan Massacre. He would never talk about it to us.

He eventually gave a few interviews about it, but I never once heard him talk about it myself. And my mother always said he never said much about it to her, either.

My uncle was a hero in the true meaning of the word. He never felt it necessary to repeatedly tell of his time in captivity.

And quite frankly, I find it highly offensive that McCain is using his POW time as a campaign tactic. In doing so, he's belittling the suffering, courage, and dignity of POWs like my uncle.

[murielm99]

7. It depends on the person.

My husband's uncle was a Bataan Death March survivor. I can't remember how many years he was a POW. He did talk about it. He made the rounds and gave speeches to various groups about his ordeal. He always made himself accessible to historians who wrote about those events. I think it was how he gained perspective and stayed sane.

My dad was a combat veteran. He was one of the replacement troops for Merrill's Marauders. Not much has been written about them, but they were the original Army Rangers. There were many battle casualties in his group, and many casualties due to disease. My dad was one of the oldest at nineteen.

He never talked about combat. I knew nothing about what he did in the war until I was in my fifties. He spoke freely about the places he visited while he was on leave, and about the people and their customs. He told us about getting hepatitis from the bad water, but not about being under fire.

My dad finally began to talk after he went to the WWII Memorial in D.C. and met up with a few people from his unit. He told his story to a fellow veteran who wrote a book about their time in Burma. I am glad he opened up when he did. He is in the early stages of dementia now.

[Liberal Dose]

8. My Uncle Louie was a Medal of Honor recipient along with the Bronze Star. I didn't even know he had

been in the military until he passed away. He fought in WWII, and so did another uncle of mine. Couldn't help knowing it about the other uncle, though. He reveled in unit reunions and when he drank too much whiskey he re-fought the Battle of the Bulge. Still, I didn't know he still had shrapnel in his thigh until my cousin joked about how he set off the metal detectors and they almost missed a flight to Italy. That would explain his ravings at Bush about making fun of the Purple Heart. Anyway, just validating the OP by agreeing that nobody makes it meaningless like McStain.

[Berry Cool]

9. There's nothing wrong with not being repressed

but needing to buttonhole voters and remind them of it and tell them about it every two seconds and use it as a catchall excuse for everything you are...that's another story.

[Hubert Flottz]

10. Right...most don't even want to talk about the horror they went...

through. The normal human mind seems to try and erase things like that in the healing process.

[magellan]

11. My father was badly wounded in Korea

I learned about it a year ago, from my stepmother.

My father is 80.

McCain is advertising his POW status only to shield him from the kind of questioning he deserves as a pro-war candidate. It's disgusting.

[Hubert Flottz]

12. McCain is using his past like Bush used his "Praying Every Day"

Stagecraft.

[tsuki]

13. My father's best friend was on the USS Indianapolis. He never spoke

of it. We knew because he used to go to the reunions to see his old shipmates.

[Divernan]

15. Indianapolis: 1,196 men on board - 321 came out of water alive; over 500 lost to sharks

A SECRET MISSION, AND DESTRUCTION

Indianapolis's intended route from Guam to the PhilippinesAfter major repairs and an overhaul, the Indianapolis received orders to proceed to Tinian island, carrying parts and the uranium projectile for the atomic bomb "Little Boy" which would later be dropped on Hiroshima. The Indianapolis departed San Francisco on July 16. Arriving at Pearl Harbor July 19, she raced on unaccompanied and arrived in Tinian on July 26. After delivering her top secret cargo to Tinian, the Indianapolis was sent to Guam where a number of the crew who had completed their tours of duty were replaced by other sailors. Leaving Guam on July 28, she began sailing toward Leyte where her crew was to receive training before continuing on to Okinawa to join Vice Admiral Jesse B. Oldendorf's Task Force 95. However, at 00:14 on July 30, 1945, two large explosions on the vessel's starboard side caused massive damage to Indianapolis. Twelve minutes later—as a result of the unexpected, two-torpedo attack by the Japanese submarine I-58 under the command of Mochitsura Hashimoto—the USS Indianapolis sank. The Japanese vessel had gone undetected prior to the attack due to the lack of effective submarine imaging equipment on the American ship.

DELAYED RESCUE: FOUR DAYS IN THE WATER
At the Headquarters of Commander Marianas on Guam and of the Commander Philippine Sea Frontier on Leyte, operations plotting boards were kept. On these boards was kept a graphic plot of the positions at sea of all vessels in which the headquarters concerned was interested. In the case of the Indianapolis, the departure of the vessel from Guam on July 28 was recorded on the plotting boards in each of these headquarters. Her estimated position was plotted on each board daily. On July 31, the date on which the vessel was scheduled to have arrived at Leyte, the Indianapolis was removed from the board in the headquarters of Commander Marianas and was recorded on the board at the headquarters of Commander Philippine Sea Frontier as having arrived at Leyte. This was the routine method of handling the plot of combatant vessels. Since, in accordance with orders standard throughout the Southwest Pacific Area, the Pacific Ocean Areas, and the Atlantic, the arrival of combatant vessels was not reported, vessels of this class were assumed to have arrived at their destinations on the date and at approximately the time scheduled in the absence of information to the contrary. Lieutenant Stuart B. Gibson, U.S.N.R., the Operations Officer under the Port Director, Tacloban, was the officer who was immediately concerned with the movements of the Indianapolis. The non-arrival of that vessel on schedule was known at once to Lieutenant Gibson who not only failed to investigate the matter but made no immediate report of the fact to his superiors. While the Indianapolis sent distress calls before sinking, the Navy long claimed that they were never received because the ship was operating under a policy of radio silence; declassified records show that three SOS messages were received separately, but none were acted upon because one commander was drunk, another had ordered his men not to disturb him and a third thought it was a Japanese prank.<3>

The subsequent delay of the rescue mission led to the loss of hundreds of sailors. About 300 of the 1,196 men on board died in the attack. The rest of the crew, 880 men, floated in the water without lifeboats until the rescue was completed four days later. Three hundred and twenty-one crew came out of the water alive, with 317 ultimately surviving. They suffered from lack of food and water, exposure to the elements, severe desquamation, and shark attacks. The Discovery Channel has stated that the Indianapolis sinking resulted in the most shark attacks on humans in history, and attributes the attacks to the oceanic whitetip shark species. The same show attributed most of the deaths on the Indianapolis to exposure, salt poisoning and thirst, with the dead being dragged off by sharks.

Immediately prior to the attack, the seas had been moderate; the visibility fluctuating but poor in general; Indianapolis had been steaming at 17 knots (31 km/h). When the ship did not reach Leyte on the 31st, as scheduled, no report was made that she was overdue. This omission was due to a misunderstanding of the Movement Report System. Thus it was not until 10:25 on August 2 that the survivors were accidentally sighted by pilot Lieutenant Wilber (Chuck) Gwinn and copilot Lieutenant Warren Colwell on a routine patrol flight. The survivors were mostly held afloat by life jackets, although there were a few rafts which had been cut loose before the ship went down. Gwinn immediately dropped a life raft and a radio transmitter. All air and surface units capable of rescue operations were dispatched to the scene at once.

A PBY seaplane under the command of LT. R. Adrian Marks was dispatched to lend assistance and report. Enroute to the scene, Marks overflew the destroyer escort USS Cecil J. Doyle (DE-368) and alerted her captain, future U.S. Secretary of the Navy W. Graham Claytor, Jr., of the emergency. On his own authority, Claytor decided to divert to the scene.

Arriving hours ahead of the Doyle, Marks' crew began dropping rubber rafts and supplies. While so engaged, they observed men being attacked by sharks. Disregarding standing orders not to land at sea, Marks landed and began taxiing to pick up the stragglers and lone swimmers who were at greatest risk of shark attack. Learning the men were the crew of the Indianapolis, he radioed the news, requesting immediate assistance. The Doyle responded she was enroute. When the plane's fuselage was full, survivors were tied to the wings with parachute cord, damaging the wings so that the plane would never fly again and had to be sunk. Marks and his crew rescued 56 men that day.


Survivors of the USS Indianapolis on Guam, in August 1945.The Cecil Doyle was the first vessel on the scene. Homing on Marks' PBY in total darkness, the Doyle halted to avoid killing or further injuring survivors, and began taking Marks' survivors aboard. Disregarding the safety of his own vessel, Captain Claytor pointed his largest searchlight into the night sky to serve as a beacon for other rescue vessels. This beacon was the first indication to most survivors that rescuers had arrived. Destroyers USS Helm (DD-388), USS Madison (DD-425) and USS Ralph Talbot (DD-390) were ordered to the rescue scene from Ulithi, along with the destroyer escort USS Dufilho (DE-423) plus attack transports USS Bassett (APD-73) and USS Ringness (LPR-100) from the Philippine Frontier. They searched thoroughly for any survivors until August 8. Of the 900 sailors who made it into the water, only 317 were pulled out alive. After almost five days of constant shark attacks, starvation, terrible thirst, suffering from exposure and their wounds, the men of the Indianapolis were at last rescued from the sea.

[elehhhhna]

14. Grandpa Bill was at Guadalcanal when he was 17. Mr McGuiggan &

Mr. Kuryla NEVER discussed surviving the sinking of the Inadianapolis (until the other survivors started dying off and they were asked about it, to preserve their stories).

McCain's a back-luck dumbass, not a hero.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

16. When I was in Portland, there was an elderly man living in my building

who had been a Marine at Guadalcanal. I lived in that building for nearly 8 years, from 1995 to 2003, and he kind of "held court" in the building's lounge, talking to all comers. The first I heard of his WWII experiences was when Saving Private Ryan came out.

He mentioned that he had been talking to a store owner who had also been a Marine in WWII, and that this Marine had referred to Saving Private Ryan as "Another goddam recruiting film," because despite the gory scenes, it carried the underlying message, "You,too, can be a hero."

My fellow resident then went on to say that he never watched war movies in theaters or on TV, because he'd seen the worst of the real thing.

[MetaTrope]

17. You don't even hear George H.W. Bush telling his war stories

You know, like the one where he bailed out of the cockpit of the bomber he was piloting while his aircrew were still aboard?

[Ikonoklast]

19. Dad was wounded at Chosin Resevoir

Said he'd disown me if I ever joined the military.

[tannybogus]

20. My Daddy landed D-Day +4 with the artillery.

He fought through the Battle of the Bulge. Back then, they stayed in unless they were

very badly hurt.He got hit in the finger with a piece of shrapnel, but refused a

Purple Heart. He didn't think a wound like that deserved one. He never would talk

much about it. My Mama said for years he would jerk at night because of having fired

the big guns for so long.I can't imagine him trying to use that service for some

personal gain.:patriot:

[Giant Robot]

21. I always found it odd that the "Greatest Generation"

To my knowledge, rarely ever spoke about their military service. One of the volunteers at my agency is a witty and verbose man who served in the Pacific during WWII. I think I remember him speaking about that once; I can remember him speaking about the GI Bill once as well. And I have known him almost 10 years.

But I have always thought McCain was selling himself based on that. Just like a common whore. But unlike the common whore, I have no respect for him.

[MasonJar]

22. I still think he is making it useless by his continued use of POW as an

excuse for everything. The dems cannot attack him on it, but the people will start to recognize that it is all he has. He may actually be unhinged. And that quote about his ambition to be president needs to go into a major ad campaign. Someone send it to Move-on and to Obama. It is time for the Obama campaign to squelch the nonpatriotic garbage talk by McCrazy..so much for who is only ambitious. McCain is no longer a maverick, if he ever was one. He has an uncontrollable temper.