Banned books--your thoughts.

[Lyric]

When I was a kid, I was reading at a level WAY above my peers from a very early age. My parents were 100% hands-off on my reading material, when it came to novels--my Dad's philosophy was that if I was old enough to actually READ it, then I was old enough to be educated and informed about it. Thus, I was reading books at ages 8, 9, and 10 that some people think are inappropriate for 16-year-old high school kids, with full parental permission. If I had questions, they answered them. That openness on the part of my parents, and their willingness to break "tradition" by giving me as much reading freedom as possible led me to develop a love for recreational reading that has stayed with me firmly over two decades and going.

So I'm curious--are there any other parents here who are that permissive about what their kids read? Are there any novels that DU'ers consider "too much" for high school kids (or even younger, if the reading ability is there) to be exposed to?

I have an eight-year-old myself, and I'll be the first to say that if he came to me and *wanted* to try reading something difficult and/or controversial, I'd let him--in fact, I'd be right there to help him understand it more fully and answer his questions.

So what do you guys think? Should some books be banned from school libraries? Is there anything that's inappropriate for ALL children, regardless of age/reading ability? Assume that we aren't talking about Playboy or Penthouse.

[spindrifter]

1. I totally agree.

My parents were like yours. I had a limit--no more than two books a day, though.

[Lyric]

6. I admit, I didn't have a limit.

My parents were poor, so my books came largely from yard sale boxes labeled "$1 for whole box" and the Salvation Army/Goodwill/Thrift Store bins. But to give them credit, they never filtered out anything from those boxes. I was allowed to read everything from Tolstoy to Danielle Steele, cookbooks and cheap romance bodice-rippers, Mark Twain, literary classics, poetry, political books, even a couple of rather explicit sex-information books that were clearly meant for adults. And lo and behold, three of my best friends with less-permissive parents wound up pregnant as teens, and I did not, thanks to my wealth of info on birth control gleaned from said books. ;)

I just devoured them, sometimes four or five a day. I developed the ability to read incredibly fast--I can look at a page and my brain seems to process "clumps" of words rather than just one at a time, so I get through the book fast and recall everything. I think being permitted unlimited access to "big" books at such an early age really helped to develop that ability. It's served me well in college, let me tell you, lol.

[tannybogus]

13. We didn't have much money either.

I learned to read with comic books that my Mama bought for 10 cents and the newspaper. Didn't use the Bible.
I remember "Illustrated Classics" comics. I read a lot of the books years later. My Mama was one of the first in her
family to earn a college degree. She said she almost flunked the 1st semester because she tried to read the whole library.

[EFerrari]

19. We had zero $ to spend on books. For some years, instead of an allowance,

we had an agreement that Mom would buy books at the best prices we could find. I never bought candy or other junk because there was always something else I was dying to read -- having exhausted the few books already in the house including the dictionary and the phonebook. So for years, I never really learned to manage money because I'd just do my chores and on Saturday, we'd go to a discount store, a library sale or hunt down a yard or church sale and spend my $2.00 in credit or whatever it was.

I remember my mom helping me carry books out of the public library. And I remember my school librarian challenging me to tell her what the book I was turning in was about because I'd only checked it out the day before. It was my addiction. :)

[Lyric]

22. You and me both. Oh yes.

And it still is. Reading is such a joy; an entire world that belongs to you and you alone, because nobody else can create the characters, the scenes, and the story in their head in exactly the same way that you do. Settling in with a good book is like spending time with a dear old friend.

I remember the librarian challenging me too--I had checked out "The Lord of the Rings" just three days beforehand, and just *devoured* that story. And Greek myths! God, I knew all about Greek mythology looooong before we studied Edith Hamilton's "Mythology" in high school, because my elementary school library had lots of illustrated books about Greek myths that were perfect for kids. This was my favorite:

[EFerrari]

25. You know, I think we bought that book at a yard sale. I remember the cover.

:rofl:

What happened for me was that my mom loved the movie "Little Women". So, she bought me the book when I was like four. That book refers to just about every work in the English canon. So, I read it and then had to track down every reference so to figure out what the hell LMA meant. And that took about ten years.

lol

It was a great adventure. :toast:

[Lyric]

49. I just ordered a copy from half.com, woo!

I found a first-edition 1962 oversized-hardcover in Very Good condition from a reputable seller for about $15 plus shipping. I'm so excited! That book is like an old friend, and I can't wait for my son to have the chance to read it and love it too.

:hi:

[WCIL]

31. My daughter took this to school in 3rd grade

On the first day of school, everyone was to take their favorite book to share. Everyone else brought a Goosebumps paperback or a picture book. No one knew what to make of my daughter when she brought this.

[EFerrari]

36. We need to found a sorority for Girls Who Read and Scare their Teachers.

lol

The Greek myths have all the stories in the world in them. It's like cracking a code.

Good for you, WCIL and welcome to DU.

[vanderBeth]

50. What! I have that book from when I was younger. I loved the illustrations.

:rofl:

[MsTryska]

84. OMG! Loved that one

and the Norse myths one!

[elshiva]

93. That book is awesome.

Mom read that to me when I was about 10 or 11. Those stories are so important and they help you understand the history of religions and culture.

:toast:

[Lyric]

20. Oooh! The Illustrated Classics!

I never saw the comics, but my Dad found a box of "Illustrated Classics" novels for kids at a yard sale once and brought them home. Tom Sawyer, Pride and Prejudice, The Three Musketeers...it was great. They allowed me to become familiar with the story and to love the characters as a very young child, so reading the "adult" versions later on was FAR more easy and enjoyable. I felt like I was already "friends" with those characters, so that lessened the difficulty of deciphering the more-difficult text. :hi:

[tannybogus]

23. I worked at a bookstore for a long time

and they still were carrying "Illustrated Classics" and printing more than just the oldest books.

They were pretty cheap, and I was always glad we sold them.:hi:

[JitterbugPerfume]

73. I used to buy those for my grandson !

he is a grown up man now , but he mentions it often

[hisownpetard]

2. "Thoughts"? Are we still allowed to have those??

[Vickers]

3. I let my kids read anything they want.

In fact, I've read pretty much all of the books that they've read (at their request, in many cases).

There have been a couple of times where *inside* I was going "Yikes!" but they are turning out OK.

No video games in the house, though.

:P

[tannybogus]

4. I read a lot.

I don't ever remember my parents telling me not to read something. That's why kids are so stupid. They can't read, so they depend on simple sources instead of checking.

GIGO. Just because it is on the internets or in a book doesn't make it true. I don't think the phrase critical thinking means anything to brazillions of people.

[asjr]

5. I was lucky also. I have had a book in hand

since I was 5 years old.

[lonestarnot]

7. No limit any any books! Not then, not now, not never!

not never :rofl: not never! tee hee :rofl: not never. :D

[FSogol]

8. I totally agree also.

My Mom allowed me to check out all the books I could carry. I've been an avid reader my entire life and put no restrictions on my sons' (aged 17 and 12) reading.

[Curtland1015]

9. Certainly there are things I wouldn't want my kid reading.

I wouldn't let an eight year old child of mine read, for example, Mandingo. But that should be my choice, not the libraries and not the Government.

[Caliman73]

10. NO Banning

I think that if there is ANY censorship, it needs to be done by parents. Parents need to be aware of what their child is getting into. The library exists to collect and display reading material to people of all ages. It is up to each one of us to self regulate as to the materials we choose to experience, as well as that of our dependents.

[Lyric]

14. Well I was talking specifically about school libraries

I would assume that there's no such thing as a liberal who would support banning books from a public library. Censoring what grown adults can read? No way. There is no room in liberalism for that kind of thinking. We're a big tent, but the line has to be drawn somewhere.

[Caliman73]

81. School libraries are Public too.

We pay for them with our tax dollars. I think same rules apply. Typically the curriculum mandates the books that are appropriate based on comprehension levels. Librarians also have some input. I think that if a student wants to read books that may not be considered "appropriate" for that age level, it should be allowed as long as the parents consent.

[Gidney N Cloyd]

11. Palin on banning books:

[Warpy]

12. I had carte blanche from my folks, too, even when I started using

the Catholic Legion of Decency banned books list as my reading list. Porn didn't interest me, so I soon developed the ability to weed that all out, but that reading list enabled me to discover Bertrand Russell, for one.

My high school years were spent on the buckle of the Baptist babble belt and the school library was remarkably thin when it came to philosophy. I contented myself with the country library, a good one that had all the stuff that sent the preachers into attacks of the vapors in a back room called "the stacks." I had the run of the stacks at 14 and the selection was great.

Segregating books that so horribly offended the Christers was a great idea, both because it made sure they were available and because there was less demand for them when I wanted to check one out.

Perhaps this is the tack embattled librarians in particularly backwards districts should take, with permission slips required of any kid under 18 to visit the "naughty" stuff.

You can bet there will be a lot of forged permission slips.

[iamjoy]

15. Just Be Reasonable

I would have to say few books if any should be banned from a municipality's public library. Those few books would be extreme situations like "Bomb Making for Dummies" (I jest, but you get the idea)

School libraries are a different matter. The Supreme Court has ruled that schools can censor student newspapers, so it would stand to reason they can control what is in their library too. I don't like the idea, but it is within the school's right. Of course, they should be very prudent about what they remove from their shelves, too. The vast majority of the "classics" should not be deemed inappropriate. Just because a book talks about puberty does not mean it is dirty. Most of the time I don't think books are going to be "banned" from a desire to censor, but rather, with limited funds, the school is going to focus on books MOST students can read. It makes no sense for an elementary school to carry Gone With The Wind (for example) for the small percentage of students who could and would read it.

Of course, a compromise if schools are carrying controversial books is to have them in a restricted section and kids must have parental permission to read them.

Within reason I have little issue with school libraries being careful with their selection, but a big problem with city and county libraries attempting to censor books.

[kimmylavin]

80. But who decides if they're controversial?

My cousin taught in South Carolina for years.
They wouldn't let her teach "The Lion, The Witch and the Wardrobe" because it had the word witch in the title.
And there are plenty of people who think the Harry Potter books are controversial.

[EFerrari]

16. My mom was like your parents. I read anything and everything

and although she didn't like me reading her Ian Fleming novels at that age, lol, she gave me a look and handed them over. Mom was an immigrant so she didn't have a list of kids' books. I just went straight into adult reading at about 8. I figure it saved me a lot of time. :)

[SheilaT]

17. My parents never censored

what I read, and I never censored what my kids read. My one disappointment in my sons was that they didn't read more.

Sure, there are books that are inappropriate in school libraries, mainly out of consideration for typical reading levels. As someone pointed out, Gone With the Wind doesn't belong in an elementary school library, only because most kids under the age of 12 won't be interested in reading it.

The real problem seems to me to be that those who want to ban books often want to ban ones they've never read. There's also the issue about "promoting" something a parent disapproves of. Or the use of certain language. It's a real shame that the banning of books doesn't actually get more kids to go out and read those books just to see what all the fuss is about.

I don't go along with the idea that in a school library there should be a separate section of books kids need permission to check out. If it's good enough to be in the library, then it can be checked out. It can be up to the parents at home to discuss with the kid why they disapprove of the book. Maybe it would start some real discussions, and actual of exchange of ideas between parent and child, especially if they both actually read the book in question, but I'm not holding out a lot of hope.

[Lyric]

18. I agree.

Parents shouldn't gripe about what's available in the school library; if their kid brings home something that they disapprove of, they can take it away themselves. Or tell the kid in advance not to read it. This is what parenting is supposed to be.

However, some other kid's parents maybe DON'T mind that book. Why should they be denied the chance to read it?

As for GWTW, it was in the library of my junior high and in my high school library too, and I recall plenty of people reading it. Maybe kids today just aren't getting the same kind of appreciation for classic literature that we got as kids. I try to be a good example in that respect for my son, but I'm constantly worried that he's absorbing too much of America-The-Dumbed-Down. *sigh*

[SheilaT]

64. GWTW is fine in a junior high

and high school library. Someone had brought up about it's being in an elementary school library as inappropriate. Just wanted to clarify that.

On a subversive note, several times I've been in a position of taking some middle-schooler to the library to get a library card. The times I'm thinking about the public libraries had a policy requiring parents sign off to allow the kids to check out books from all areas of the library. I always signed off on that privilege. Even though I wasn't actually the parent. Always felt good.

[ebdarcy]

21. My parents let me read whatever I wanted to.

Going to the library was an adventure when I was a kid. When we were very young, my mom used to help my sister and I look for books. But when we got about 9/10, we were turned loose and allowed to roam free. She always looked at the titles when we checked them out, but she never overrode anything. My mom trusted our judgment. If we thought we could handle it and were interested in it, then it was okay.

I think if kids are interested in a novel, they should be allowed to read it. If it's extremely controversial, then an adult should be able to talk it over with their child. It should be used as a tool for discussion. That being said, if a parent wants to ban something in their own home, fine, that's their prerogative. But there is absolutely no reason to try to ban it from other families' homes. When I look at the books that are routinely challenged, I just shake my head. I've read many of those books, and I think it's very sad that someone would try to deprive someone else of the rewarding experience that many of those books offer.

The only time I've ever had someone discourage me from reading a particular novel was in middle school. I had been reading above my age level for years. I was wondering around the shelves in the school library and came across a title I thought sounded interesting. It was "Pride and Prejudice". I didn't know anything about it, so I took it to the librarian and asked her about it. She told me it was too adult for me. Her tone told me she thought I was too young to "get" it. So, of course I checked it out, read it and fell in love with it. And then proceeded to read all of Austen's novels. She's my favorite author, and I'm still kind of annoyed at that librarian. She's the only librarian I've ever seen do that.

[EFerrari]

24. One of my teachers said Little Women was too advanced for me

when I was reading on the playground in 7th Grade. I didn't have the heart to tell her I'd read it every year since I was five, each year with better comprehension. Now I wonder if that teacher ever read a book more than once. :)

[ebdarcy]

32. That's funny. I love rereading books.

It always such a nice surprise to discover some new detail or wrinkle.

[EFerrari]

34. I went to pretty good public schools and NEVER had Austen at all.

If I hadn't gone to college and majored in English, I never would have read her yet.

What a life -- a world without Austen.

[ebdarcy]

39. You said it. I can't imagine never having been introduced to her.

I did a research paper on P&P and "Sense and Sensibility" a couple of years ago. In one of the articles I read, the author/critic made a comment stating that if Austen had ever married, she probably never would have published. I don't necessarily agree with that, but the thought just floored me. I just wonder how many talented women authors were never published and subsequently lost to the world. It's a sad thought.

[Lyric]

26. Maybe she was pulling a Neverending Story on you!

Bastian:

What's that book about?

Coreander:
Oh, this is something special.

Bastian:
(Bastian moves in closer.) Well, what is it ?

Coreander:
Look. You're books are safe. While you're reading them you get to become Tarzan or Robinson Crusoe.

Bastian:
But that's what I like about them.

Coreander:
Yes, but afterwards you get to be a little boy again.

Bastian:
What do you mean?

Coreander:
Listen (he motions for him to come nearer.)

Coreander:
Have you ever been Captain Nemo, trapped inside your submarine while the giant squid was attacking you ?

Bastian:
Yes.

Coreander:
Weren't you afraid you couldn't escape ?

Bastian:
But it's only a story.

Coreander:
That's what I'm talking about. The ones you read are safe.

Bastian:
And that one isn't ?

Coreander:
Don't worry about it.

Bastian:
But, but you just said it was.... (the phone rings and Coreander puts the book under a newspaper to try and hide it.)

Coreander:
Forget about it. This book is not for you. (he gets up and gets the phone.)

[ebdarcy]

35. I don't know. It was just so odd. Over 15 years later, and I can still

remember thinking wtf? I think I was just stunned because I expected so much from librarians. I thought they had the best jobs in the world. I was one of those kids who always volunteered to help out in the school library.

[Lyric]

37. Reverse psychology is a powerful thing with kids.

The one way to be SURE that a kid will read a book is to tell them that they can't. ;)

:hi:

But then again, I generally try to give people the benefit of the doubt. You know better than I, as you witnessed it yourself.

[ebdarcy]

40. It might have been. I hope it was. Because there was no turning back once she

implied that I couldn't.

[Montauk6]

27. MMMMMMM.... you...MIGHT want to beware with any novels

from the Victorian era penned by that guy Anonymous. :silly:

[The Straight Story]

28. My folks were like that with picture books, so I got playboy early on

:rofl:

[WCIL]

29. I was always allowed to read anything I wanted

We had very few toys, and knew never to ask for anything at the store, but Mom ordered anything we wanted out of the Scholastic book orders that came home from school. When I wanted to use my library card upstairs in the adult section at age 9 my mom had to tussle with the librarian about it, but we prevailed. I could ask my parents about anything I didn't understand, and they would drop nearly anything to take me to the library.

I raised my children the same way. My son doesn't like to read (this kills me), but my daughter has been reading adult stuff since she was 9 or 10. I can't see forcing a kid to read "age appropriate" books exclusively when they have read EVERYTHING and clearly are ready for more. There was a teacher at her elementary school who tried to take a book from her and called me about her "inappropriate" reading material, but a quick visit to the principal by my husband and me took care of that. She is now 19 and reads almost everything.

I am against library censorship. If a parent objects to a book for his child, so be it. Don't try to keep a book away from my child.

[Fox Mulder]

30. If I had a kid, I wouldn't care what the hell he/she was reading...

just as long as he/she WAS reading.

[BlueCollar]

33. Opposed

But then like yourself I was allowed to read anything I picked up.

Both my parents are print junkies and we had subscriptions to a brazillian magazines also so there was never a shortage of things to read.

[davsand]

38. You don't BAN books. You can, however, express your opinion about them.

There are books out there that if my 11 year old brought one to me saying she wanted to read it I'd feel compelled to offer my opinion of the book or its contents. There IS some stuff that not all kids (or adults, for that matter) have the stomach to read.

Several years ago there was a controversial book by Brett Easton Ellis titled American Psycho. It caused a HUGE flap because it had some scenes of graphic torture and mutilation of women. (I think that author actually got booted by one publisher prior to the release of the book because of all the bad publicity--it was a serious shit storm about that book.)

Anyhow, I was a bookstore manager at the time and I had women threatening to picket my store if we carried the book. Not to be TOO mercenary about it, but THAT kind of publicity is AWESOME for any bookstore, so of course we were gonna carry the book. Prior to the release of the book, I read an advance copy and I was literally sickened by it. Yeah, it was THAT graphic.

I carried it, and I displayed it. I also put it out with a posted statement that in spite of the fact that I and my staff found it to be disgusting in its content, we felt it was an absolute and unquestionable right that EVERY reader make their own personal decision about the book and its contents.

We sold three copies of that book and nobody picketed the store.



How you deal with books like that should vary according to your position. If you are a reader you need to make your own mind up.

I would not suggest that book for my daughter, but I would not take it from her hands either.

As a school librarian, I would not order the book for the library, but I would not pull it from the shelves if it was there already.

As a public librarian I would order the book and display it.

YMMV.


Laura

[mentalsolstice]

41. No limits when I was growing up!

I remember reading about the Tate/LaBianca murders in all of their gory detail when I was 8. By the time I was 9 or 10 I was reading my mom's bookclub books after she was done with them. I can's say that I checked out books from the school library as there was plenty of reading material at home.

[a la izquierda]

42. My parents pretty much let me read...

whatever, sometimes to their misfortune (i.e. when I read "It" and couldn't sleep for days, I ended up sleeping at the foot of their bed). Mostly, I read what they had, which was never "dirty", just well above what I should have been reading, because it was too scary for a kid and had a lot of cuss-words. I never asked about the cuss-words, and if I had vocab questions my mom's boiler-plate response was "get a dictionary and figure it out". I had an enormous vocabulary for a kid. But, they were happy I was reading.

[Lyric]

46. "It" was one of the ones that I read

when I was about 10-11 years old. There's some rather graphic sexual content in that book too, as well as a lot of kid-inappropriate language, but my parents trusted my ability to process it. They actually bought it for me, at my request, as one of my Christmas presents.

The book didn't frighten me, but the movie scared the Bejeesus out of me, lol.

[eggplant]

43. What's there to be afraid of?

It's just wood pulp and ink.

[EFerrari]

44. Has anyone ever met a kid who went right off the rails because they read a book?

Imho, this isn't about kids reading but about authoritarian control or the FBI would have a wall of picture of people who went wrong because they read something.

lol

[SharonAnn]

74. Timothy McVeigh and "Confessions of Nat Turner"? It influenced him greatly.

Of course Molly Ivins suggested that some of the blame should be laid to hisEnglish teacher who didn't teach him to know good literature from bad.

[SmokingJacket]

45. I let my 11 yr old read whatever he wants. But...

It's not out of the question that I might censor something someday. My husband and I read mysteries and thrillers that have graphic sex and violence, and I'd rather he didn't read that stuff. Seems to me that his desire to read stuff goes along with his ability to handle it, so I'm basically hands off.

I think the LIBRARIAN should be the authority that choses what goes into the library. If he or she makes cruddy choices and fills the library with trash, then the principal should be allowed to hire someone more suited to the job. But random citizens or groups of citizens shouldn't be able to dictate what other people's kids read.

[pleah]

47. I don't censor my son at all.

He is very well behaved and does very well in school.

[tannybogus]

48. After reading the posts, I think I have one clue how a lot of us ended up on DU.

I'll bet a thread like this at freeperland or whatever would look waaaay different.

[Lyric]

51. I think you're right about that.

I think that parents who are willing to trust their kids with access to books and knowledge, maybe even stuff that isn't exactly "age appropriate," go a loooong way toward establishing the kind of love of knowledge and appreciation of liberty that is at the very HEART of what it means to be a liberal and a progressive.

I don't censor my son because I trust him, just like my parents trusted me. Freeper parents don't trust; they order, they censor, they restrict, they forbid knowledge. There is no trust there.

[vanderBeth]

52. I wouldn't say ban them. I very much doubt that they would ever be

purchased for school libraries if they were REALLY questionable. Looking at the list of the 100 most frequently banned books, most do not seem to be harmful but actually very important. I couldn't imagine To Kill A Mockingbird not being available. But I would question a school library that buys Sex by Madonna.

I don't believe that libraries should censor ideas or works of literary value. The parents should be responsible of what their children read.

[uberllama42]

53. I think there are certain things 10-year-olds should be sheltered from

but once folks hit high school, they're big boys and girls. People who try to keep teenagers from reading certain books are protecting themselves, not the "children."

Maybe the Room 101 scene in Nineteen Eighty-Four or the immolation of Captain Beatty in Fahrenheit 451 ought to be kept out of elementary school libraries. But after a while, keeping people from emotional distress and graphic images only makes them more vulnerable. Dealing with painful stories and dangerous ideas is part of being an adult in an open society. It cannot serve the interests of the sheltered person or of free society to ban such things. It can only serve the interests of the bibliophobes.

[Lithos]

54. Yes

I thought that it was the job of the parents to nurture education of ideas. My parents did pretty much the same as your parents and let me check out pretty much anything I wanted to from the Public Library. When I got into High School, they took advantage of an old connection to get me access to the UT library system where I thought I was in heaven.

L-

[bemildred]

55. Given what children are fed daily on TV and in the mass media ...

it seems fatuous to worry about what they might pick up from reading books.

[bemildred]

58. I also think the idea that keeping children ignorant and feeding them bullshit

is "good for them" or "protecting them" is horseshit. It has never been the case that being ignorant and docile has been "good for you", whomever else it might have been good for.

[treestar]

56. No, but one time my grandmother saw what I was reading and pointed

out to them that it was too racy or something - she knew the book. I forget whether they said I couldn't read it - I think I read it anyway.

But at least they didn't expect the library not to have the book - that's the main offense about the fundies. If they don't want their children to read a certain book, fine, but why do they expect the rest of society to enforce it for them?

[salin]

57. When I was a freshman in HS Indiana was going through a book banning

phase. In my more liberal college town the books were pulled from the school library shelf, and one needed parent permission to read. I decided THOSE were the books to read - and had my parents permission. I probably would never have read Dracula and In Cold Blood were the books not on the list.

[fed_up_mother]

59. My kids are all avid readers

and although "I" might be a little careful about what they read, I don't believe in censorship in a public library.

However, I have been surprised at the crap out there, so I don't let my ten year old wander into the teen section. Teen horror with some sex thrown in for ten year olds?

No thanks. :)

[knitter4democracy]

60. I don't censor. If my kids want to read it, they can.

I might try to guide them to something a bit more appropriate for their age, but hiding books just makes people want to read them more. For example, my daughter really wanted to start reading Harry Potter this fall, and I let her (knowing how bad her nightmares get from the darndest things). She'll have to decide what's she comfortable with and what she isn't.

[tomg]

61. Oktoberain, I'm very glad that you

started by discussing fiction. I am pretty much in the same realm as you, and I've raised four kids. Regarding school libraries - after taking age levels and the like into consideration - I am going to generally trust librarians ( which is not to say some are not assholes - although I have never met a librarian who is an asshole and I work with them). Do I want, say, American Psycho by Ellis in the local high school school library. Not particularly, but that is an issue more of taste and tight budgets.

But at adolescence, censorship can be a tricky thing in its unintended consequences. In my case, two works that were censored - and partially because they were censored - put me on a path: Catcher in the Rye and Das Kapital. The first our school warned us against reading ( any student yadda yadda ocassion of sin yadda). When it was my turn with the passed-around copy, I devoured it at 13. From that point on, if they stopped it, I went after it. They were the anti-review of all time. The second was parental censorship. At 13, I went to our local library and got a copy of Das Kapital which my father immediately confiscated. In fact, I would have gotten through about four pages of it ( statistics on pig iron production in Birmingham in the 19th century?). But I figured that if my father didn't want me to have it, it had to rock. So, instead I found a weird little bookstore where I got left wing politics - pamphlets that I could read: Trotsky, Lenin, Mao. This is 1964-5 New Jersey burbs. And today I am a poster boy for David Horowitz: a left-wing college English professor.

So what do we do when our adolescent kid finds or gets into Neo-Nazi stuff, or Aryan nation, or Illuminati anti-semitic crap. Do we let them read it without discussion if they so choose? If it is of the violent left and they start going toward extreme, potentially violent anarchy ( not the good and historically safe Spanish anarchists of Barcelona - who I also found out about at 15). I am a first amendments right freak, but as a parent ( and I have four kids and I've been in both uncomfortable positions and I and they survived), it is a rock and a hard place.

Thanks for the discussion you started. With three well grown and a 15 year old left, I am concerned about where I stand on the issues.

[LWolf]

62. I had access to all books growing up.

I was not encouraged to read books from my mother's shelves, but when I took them to read, I was allowed to.

The only one that got a reaction from her was "Everything You Always Wanted To Know About Sex But Were Afraid To Ask." I was about 10. She blushed.

School libraries operate differently than public libraries. There is often a screening process to "approve" books before they will be shelved, and a book that receives a protest will be sent to committee, with the school board making a final decision.

I spent 12 years working in school libraries. One district required every book to be read by a teacher, another staff member, the library tech, and 3 parents, and approved by all, before it could be put into the collection.

That same district fielded lawsuits from parents who protested the use of "The Martian Chronicles" in 8th grade. Books used for instruction have more restrictions and more steps for approval than do library books, which are, after all, students' and parents' choice to read or not.

That same district had a core group of people in the community who showed up to "review" every library book purchased in the district, condemning a bunch of them every year. Every dinosaur book ever purchased spent a few years in committee before making it to the shelves, for example.

In one school I worked at, we couldn't keep a copy of Alvin Schwartz' "Scary Stories To Tell In The Dark." It was approved, but parents disapproved. It disappeared every year in October. Some kid wouldn't bring it back, the parent would ignore reminders for awhile, then tell me they were "looking," and, finally, toward the end of the year, pay for it because they "couldn't find it." I might have believed that if I hadn't been approached the first year by a couple of moms demanding that we remove it from the shelves.

Are there books that should NOT be in school libraries? Sure. Pornography, for example. Perhaps manuals for how to build/concoct and use explosives, or books advocating school violence or pedophilia, if such books exist.

As someone who spent many years doing collection development, the real restrictions are those of space and funds. With both limited, every volume counts, and is therefore limited to only the best. At least in my case. The point is to provide specific needs, and to keep the collection broad.

[Sheltiemama]

63. Me, too.

I tested as reading at an eighth-grade level when I was in the second grade, I believe is what my mother told me. She was a teacher. Dad was a journalist. (And now I'm one, too.) There were no restrictions on what I could read. As you can imagine, I don't believe in banning books.

[RobertDevereaux]

65. Excellent post!

I'm with you.

NO BANNED BOOKS.

EVER!

[mitchum]

66. I was a precocious reader (being a golf or piano prodigy would have been more profitable...

but I digress) and my parents were like yours; they let me read any book that I cared to. And I mean any book.
Neither of my parents were big recreational readers, but they felt that no book could harm you.

[riderinthestorm]

67. My kids are allowed to read anything, no restrictions.

They are tremendous readers - ages 20 and 11.

I fully subscribe to the credo that if they want to read it, that's fine. We've had some excellent discussions about really diverse books from "Our Bodies, Our Selves" to "Jonathan Livingston Seagull". Since they know I am open and approachable about their books, it has opened up a whole avenue of dialog and communication about well, virtually everything. Since the subject matter of books ranges so broadly, and they don't have to "hide" their reading material, I have an open door (as do they) to start a convo on anything.

It's incredibly freeing and facilitates some of our best family moments as we excitedly share our favorite scenes, passages, emotions or thoughts from shared books.

[defendandprotect]

68. My disappointment is the other way around . . . that my kids had reading limits---!!!

My kids read probably more than other kids but no where near enough for me!

[Aeval]

69. I'm a school librarian and I do not believe in banning books from the shelves of a school library.

Every student has different abilities, interests, maturity, etc. I do my best to recommend books to students that I think are a good fit based on my personal knowledge of them. However, I have never, and would never, restrict a student from taking any book. I am vehemently opposed to book banning. (I mentioned in another thread that this was the Palin issue that I have been most personally insulted by). Of course, a school or public library banning books and a parent restricting what their children read are two very different things. I have, on one occasion, had a parent return a book to me and ask me to not allow her child to check out books "of that nature." In my capacity as a teacher/librarian, I must respect that parent's wishes, but if a parent, or anyone else, ever challenges a book in my library (the KIDS' LIBRARY!) for removal from the collection, I would fight tooth and nail to defend the rights of all to have open access to that book, and all books. Freedom of information for all. That is the pledge I made when I entered this profession.

I am so happy to see that you, and others here,hold this belief for yourselves and your children!


This says it all:

"I want to congratulate librarians, not famous for their physical strength or their powerful political connections or their great wealth, who, all over this country, have staunchly resisted anti-democratic bullies who have tried to remove certain books from their shelves, and have refused to reveal to thought police the names of persons who have checked out those titles.
So the America I loved still exists, if not in the White House or the Supreme Court or the Senate or the House of Representatives or the media. The America I love still exists at the front desks of our public libraries."
— Kurt Vonnegut

I would add to this, that it exists in the homes of parents like you, as well!

[Prisoner_Number_Six]

70. I was born with a book in my hand

and I'll let go of it only when they pry it from my cold, dead hand.

[DemoRabbit]

71. Same type of upbring here...

and I'm raising my daughter similarly. Reading and books are something we have encouraged since she could walk and talk.

She's ALWAYS reading, watches very little TV (I don't allow one in her room) and prefers a trip to borders over a trip to the movies. She LOVES to read. She's 15.

When she was younger there were SOME books she asked about that I wouldn't let her read for sexual content that I felt was age-inappropriate, however, I DO NOT think books should be banned from libraries because *I* make a personal parenting decision.

[bicentennial_baby]

72. Well, I owned Delta of Venus by Anais Nin at age 13, and my Mom knew

Yeah, I pretty much had free reign in that Dept, I guess. :)

[Lyric]

75. Oh yeah. I am very familiar with that one.

My folks were cool with whatever I wanted to read, no matter the content. I guess they thought that the more information I had, the better sexual decisions that I'd make. And indeed, I did! No teen pregnancy, no STDs, and a myriad of smart, safe choices during those years that kept me from ruining my future. I think that maybe exposing kids to some sexual content during the early teen years and beyond might answer some questions and fulfill the desire for knowledge about sex that they could only otherwise get by (very risky) experience. It certainly worked for me.

I've already decided that as soon as OktoberKid hits his teen years and starts turning into a young man, I'm going to make a deal with him. I'll buy him some girlie mags and stag movies for, erm, Private Satisfaction and Edification...IF he agrees to not engage in Actual Sex without coming to us and talking about it first. I fall firmly within the Jocelyn Elders camp that believes that young people who are permitted to explore alternatives to sex (like masturbation) are healthier, happier, and SAFER in the long run than kids who are simply told "Nothing sexual until you're adult/married, period!" That kind of abstinence-only, brick-wall philosophy is about the worst thing you can do to a kid (IMHO.) Let's face it--teen hormones are potent, and orgasms feel really good. I'd rather that he was alone in his room with a Playboy doing his private thing than out having forbidden sex with some girl (or guy!) and potentially risking his health and future.

In our house, sex is not a bad word.

:hi:

[uppityperson]

76. Don't ban books. Leave it up to parents.

I read books as a youngster that had librarians wondering, but my parents let me read whatever, joining my and discussing things. I did the same with my kid. I'd rather have an open relationship with my kid, be able to talk, than have said kid read hidden away.

[chiefofclarinet]

77. My own thoughts

I don't think there should be a "ban" on books, per se. There are books that should not be in the average elementary school student due to reading comprehension or graphic content. However, I trust that the librarians know what is right for the community, and the parents know what is right for the child.

However, many books have multiple levels on which they can be read. Animal Farm is a classic example. So is my favorite novel, Watership Down. A grade schooler could read both of these books as a story with talking animals. An adult can see both books as allegories on politics. (Animal Farm denouncing Soviet Russia, Watership Down demonstrating the difference between socialism, democracy, and dictatorship) So, I would have no problem seeing a child reading Animal Farm, I just don't think he or she will read it like I read it.

I was unique in my reading choice. When I was young, my parents gave me (basically) free reign over the children's section of the main library. (My elementary school library was almost completely worthless, especially in good books.) Instead of reading the (usually worthless) kid's fiction, I attacked the nonfiction section. I read just about every biography of the presidents, an entire series of books about the states, and every math and science book I could find in that children's section. The librarians knew me extremely well. My parents limited the number of books I could check out at a time, which meant I read those REALLY fast to get to the next 10 I wanted to read. I only reluctantly read fiction, unless there was a competition about it. At about 11, I ran out of books in the children section, so I continued with the adult nonfiction. I probably exhausted the majority of the biology and chemistry books in the library, besides textbooks (I'm not THAT fact-oriented). Only lately (as a college student) have I starting getting an interest in fiction, mostly mysteries.

I know reading everything I did has made me who I am. I loved quiz bowl in high school. I still love trivia. I still read as much as I can. I research just about everything I hear about. (Wikipedia is my friend...) I think this passion for the truth made me a more confident progressive/liberal/Democrat.

[verges]

78. No books should be banned from libraries.

I don't have kids, but I think I would approach it much as your folks did (my folks too. I just wasn't as precocious or voracious). Maybe a kid could explain "Finegan's Wake" to me.

[Anticon]

79. As purely an observation..

You would never see this thread on a neocon forum...I think it is against their philosophy to read.

[yellowdogintexas]

82. are we related? I read everything I could get my hands on and my mom did

not interfere. Now if she knew I was reading something she thought was over my head she would talk about it to me, or if she thought it was too racy or trashy. I really did not bother with racy or trashy until early teens anyway. She never told me I couldn't read anything but if I got in a rut she thought was not intelligent, she would just hand me other stuff to read.

That my friends is how I came to read 'Exodus' at the age of 12 and learned about the Holocaust. My mom and I spent an entire summer talking about the Holocaust, after Exodus I read Anne Frank and Mila 18 and other stuff she had about that period ..and she told me all she knew about it from being alive at the end of the War . Then I read 'To Kill A Mockingbird' and that set off another round of great discussions...

on edit: I have never censored or restricted my daughter's reading. Ever

Somewhere in there I learned about the McCarthy Hearings and why America was so scared of a Catholic President also

[apocalypsehow]

83. Never been a fan of Marcuse or the Frankfurt School, I'm pretty much a 1st Amendment absolutist. n/t

[MsTryska]

85. My parents never talked about sex with me, maybe not even with each other...

but they also never EVER censored anything we read. TV and Movies were censored but not books. And i read everything - My mom had a huge book collection whether she bought them at regular stores, garage sales etc, and I was taken tot he library whenever I wanted.

I also hung out in the library any time I had free time at school. I developed a habit of just browsing section by section until i found soemthing that interested me. I do that to this day at the library.


Anyways all this is to say that everything I learned about sex and sexuality I learned by checking out Our Bodies Our Selves starting when i was about 13 or so - when i made the shift from Catholic School to Public School.

if it wasn't for that book, i prolly wouldn't know what I know or have the rather healthy view of sexuality that I do.

[azlatina]

86. My first post!

Both My 13 year old daughter and I are avid readers. My daughter was tested in 2nd grade at 9 grade level for reading and comprehension. Books are very important in our lives and I encourage my daughter to read as much as she can. When she was a toddler, we played games to help develop her critical thinking skills so she seeks out a variety of sources to understand subject matters. Although, I have never read the bible, she had read it by the time she was 5 years old - she considers herself as Agnostic. Books are an essential tool for our ongoing education.

[csziggy]

87. Books should not be banned from libraries, school or otherwise

I think the courts are wrong to permit administrative censoring of school newspapers, too.

But then I am not a parent so maybe I have a different perspective.

I'm another avid reader - by the time I was in fifth grade, I had free run of our small town public library and had read everything I wanted from the school library. The public librarian asked me advice on what books to buy and keep on horses (my particular area of interest).

I got into trouble in reading class in fifth grade. We had one book assigned for the entire year - Caddie Woodlawn. I read it all the way through and each week during the one hour reading class, I would re-read the assigned chapter. Then I'd pull out whatever other book I was reading at the time. The teacher caught me reading something other than the assignment and hauled me to the principal's office. I gave them a synopsis of the plot of the entire book, re-hashed the chapter for that week and generally proved that I knew the book inside and out. For some reason, the reading teacher never liked me after that, though I was the best reader she had that year.

We also did not have much money and Mom bought lots of books from Goodwill and yard sales. When I was in sixth grade she bought a collection of James Bond books which I read. Later she heard they were "racy" (for the early 60s I guess they could have been) and asked me about the sex in them. Never bothered me. ;)

I also loved reading myths from different cultures - and Mom would buy me books on myths and from there we moved on to cultural anthropology. Mom got disturbed by some of the myths - Osiris and Isis and the hunt for his penis when he was dismembered; the Coyote Trickster and his various odd semi-sexual games. But though she would talk to me about the myths, Mom did not take the books away from me. Maybe she would have if I had shown any odd interest in those themes.

One of the reasons I got hooked on forums on the internet was that I have never been able to keep enough books around for my insatiable addiction to reading. I've been a member of at least one online forum since the early 90s and learned a lot from the various interest groups on them. Forums like this can keeping me reading as long as I want and researching some of the subjects keeps my brain turning.

[burrowowl]

88. I was 8 and looking in my parents library

I saw the Divine Comedy and thought that sounds like an interesting book. Dad came in and said what are you reading? I showed him the book, he said I don;t think you'll understand it. I said I can read anything. I read the whole damn thing and didn't see what was funny, but I was going to show him I could read it all (with dictionary at hand). One of the first books I bought with my baby sitting money at age 9 was the Inferno illustrated by Dore, I loved the art! I read mother's Little Red Pony and some other children's books on pets and the animals dying put that genre off my reading lists so I stuck to science, science fiction and adventure (Kon-Tiki). Didn't read the Dos Passos USA until much later, wasn't into politics until around 12 or so. At boarding school, a nun caught me reading Emile Zola with a flashlight under the sheets and who was on the Index at the time (yes I am that old) and she said why are you reading that, I said for the social commentary. She said well you should get your sleep, read it during recess.

[JCMach1]

92. My Mom loved this book as a child because she found an illustrated

with lots of depictions of naked people in Hell!

[brettdale]

89. They should ban

censorship

[cali]

90. My parents were just as permissive as yours re my reading

Of course books were everywhere in our house while I was growing up. Thousands and thousands of books. Books in practically every room. In fact the only books off limits were certain valuble first edition when we were little. Content wasn't an issue. And I continued in that vein with my son. He was allowed to read whatever he wished.

[jcla]

91. My family is from New England, Vermont to be specific

we never banned books... we read and discussed them. At an early age I was exposed to Melvile, Hawthorne, the Bible (you want to talk about sex and violence reading this is a must!)and many other books. I was encouraged to read and think and talk about books. We talked about everything and I mean everything. I didn't ban my son's reading or music (loud and hip-hop though it was.. just turned down the volume and talked later). We talked and still do about everything...

[tannybogus]

94. I believe librarians are one of the last walls holding against the current facism of Bushco!

They deserve "Medals of Freedom." (of course there are exceptions-the obligatory but) I have read so many stories about how they have stood up to the Nazis acting under

the guise of protecting our nation from __________(fill in the blank). People dismiss them because of their "timid" sterotype. All of us on this thread and those dolts

who aren't aware of what's happening should say a prayer each day for them!! They are the true patriots! :loveya::yourock::applause::patriot: