Impeachment Hearings.

[20score]

The question shouldn’t be, ‘is it politically expedient,’ but ‘is it true?’ Were these actions, crimes? The answer is obvious and has been documented in books, newspapers, magazines and before our eyes for years. The congress has more than enough facts to move on hearings leading toward impeachment. Whether there is time to complete those hearings before the election is irrelevant, especially when viewed in the historical context. There are ethical and constitutional considerations to be weighed when deciding whether or not to hold hearings, but those plainly come down in favor of accountability.

In the micro, no one would suggest that a person guilty of myriad crimes, both large and small, theft and manslaughter, if not murder, be punished by letting his contract lapse. Why should the macro be any different?

I do not claim to know what it is that is keeping Nancy Pelosi from allowing impeachment, as no good explanation has been forthcoming. But I do know that many more people would be in favor of impeachment were the hearings to go forward. There are still millions of people in the country who do not know, or do not believe that the Bush administration has committed crimes. That would change once televised hearing begun. This would have the added benefit pushing people away from McCain and also destroy the talking point, now being brought up, that if the Democrats had something on Bush, they would have used it.

Another argument in favor of impeachment hearings is that there are now relatively young people, up and coming in the power structure, that are learning the same lessons Dick Cheney learned, three decades ago. Never give an inch, lie big, and you get away with everything. Our country can ill afford the Bush administration we now have; we certainly can’t afford one in the future.

[bkkyosemite]

1. Maybe Pelosi wanted the Dems in the White House more than impeachment ...after Nov. 2nd who knows.

[20score]

2. Hope so. But I've never heard a good argument for letting this drop.

Not a compelling one, anyway.

[Piewhacket]

18. It wouldn't have worked?

seems compelling enough.

I think it obvious, at least to me, that it was a political choice.
Impeachment would NOT have worked (that isn't conjecture, count the votes),
it would have (in the political judgment of democratic leaders) undermined
the effort to win in November, and a Democrat HAD TO WIN the White House.

In any event, Pelosi alone did not make the political judgment that took
impeachment off the table. A caucus decided that.

You don't have to let the matter of impeachment drop, of course. Lots of good
reasons to keep that in view. But attacking Pelosi over it? I suggest that
is barking up the wrong tree, at the wrong target.

And we need to win in November. We must win. Please lets keep our focus on that.

[20score]

19. Not to me it's not. For the reasons I've stated above.

[20score]

20. And besides, being weak when you're right is not a

very good quality. People see that and respond.

[Senator]

6. So, She's Both Wrong And Corrupt. Yeah, Maybe.

This beltway bromide about impeachment being anything but bad for repubs is about as real as Saddam's WMD.

But more importantly, http://journals.democraticunderground.com/Senator/15">Why Does "Our Side" Get to Benefit From Ongoing Torture?.

The oath to defend the Constitution does not include exceptions for those obsessed by the next election. And the Geneva treaties require that ALL gov't officials report and ACT to stop ongoing torture and war crimes -- again with no exceptions for taking political advantage of the anguish of detainees or the lives of US service men and women.

But I think you're correct that she has made clear that was her "rationalization." So her place in American historical infamy and perhaps the dock at the Hague is assured.

Impeachment remains our ONLY moral, patriotic option.

--

[The Stranger]

14. If she wanted Dems in the White House, SHE WOULD HAVE USED IMPEACHMENT TO HELP US.

People aren't falling for her lies any more that hearings would have lost the public. First, the fucking election polling is showing the race dead even. Second, she should be fucking smart enough to use impeachment AS POLITICAL LEVERAGE in such a way as to not lose the public and to punish the GOP.

But Nancy Pelosi is a traitor. She stabbed us in the back. She let them go.

[Zhade]

23. She's a coward who's willing to let criminals walk.

That makes her complicit.

[suede1]

3. Agreed! No argument from me.

[KharmaTrain]

4. Why Elections Matter...

Best to refresh the class on the shit sandwich Democrats were forced to deal with since 2006...a 60 vote threshold for almost anything in the Senate and an Executive that vetoed and stonewalled knowing it had protection in the Senate. Pelosi had said from the outset in 2007 that she wanted things for Democrats to run on this year...to win more seats in not only the House but also in the Senate and, most importantly...the big one...the Executive. The House passed a lot of solid legislation...from health care relief to seniors to S-CHIP to veterans benefits to aid for college students...the list was long and much of it never saw the light of day in the Senate thanks to the 60 vote mess. Impeachment was a non-starter from the get-go...even if there were votes in the House, there weren't 34 Repugnicans in the Senate who would convict...thus turning it into an exoneration. Frustrating? You bet...but it was the first step...not the end of the process.

We've learned a lot over the past two years...it's not what to impeach, but where to start. Investigations have been stonewalled...and now any indictment would be viewed as an election ploy and surely met with a pardon. I really believe the most dangerous days are ahead...especially if Senator Obama wins...as this regime tries to executive prilidge its way out of any future accountability. But I like the odds of that being limited...if the GOOP loses in November, the knives will be out on that side and many will be trained at those who put this party in a big hole for the forseeable future. We saw how quick their base "energized"...it can and will collapse just as quickly.

I've heard Senators Biden and Leahy say they won't let crimes of the past 7 1/2 years go by...there's just too much that still smells and needs to be fixed if this country is to ever function again. The reputation of the Justice Department will need to be restored and one part of that process will be to go after those who politicized and destroyed the department's independence. Then there's Congressmen Waxman and Conyers who have a lot of other unfinished business...subpoeans that will have to be honored, evidence no longer covered by Executive privilidge and a backlog of questions and actions that can be turned over to a far more cooperative Justice Department. Or even better would be the appointment of a Special Prosecutor to handle this work and allow the legislators to do what they need to as far as pushing through legislation to fix a broken economy and get our troops out of that quagmire in Iraq.

If Gramps wins, then those chances diminish as the boooosh cabal can then cover their tracks and stonewalling and gridlock will be the "game" as the Executive is continued to be used as a political weapon against the other two branches.

Cheers...

[pat_k]

9. Why reality matters.

The heartbreak of impeachophobia is that it appears to render the sufferer incapable of rational thought.

Whining about rule by signing statement and a 60 vote threshold in the Senate are tragic symptoms of the disease. Impeachment is the ONLY rational response to rule by signing statement. With self-declared outlaws in the White House "passing stronger laws" for them to break is lunacy.

The heartbreak of impeachophobia is that the "reasons" for running from impeachment are not just baseless, they are The Opposite Of Reality.

Opposing impeachment doesn't give Democratic candidates something to "run on." Opposing impeachment says Bush is right and/or Democrats are weak political hacks who refuse to fight for the principles they give lip service to.

As long as Democrats oppose impeachment, they are partners in the Republican slap-down of the countless Americans -- the scholars, government officials, military officers, public figures (including our own Mr. Olbermann), and ordinary citizens -- who have been sounding the alarm and demanding justice.

Real ass-kicking "messages" to run on:

"Bush is right! There are no crimes. There is no Torture."

"Republicans are too strong! They won't submit to us."

"Stop asking us to Do Things! We can't! We're impotent!"

Americans got the message.

A clear and present danger demands immediate action, not impotent complaint. Rationalize inaction and the message is clear "this is not a real threat."

If Obama wants Americans to see the threat that McCain and the rest of the Republican followers of bushncheney-ism represent, he must call on the House to impeach. He must call on his fellow Members of the Senate to remove. He must call on McCain to reject or defend torture; to reject or defend rule by signing statement. He must give his fellow citizens and colleagues in Congress an opportunity to break the bonds of complicity.

Without impeachment, American-Principle is dead; Fascist-Principle lives; and the Democratic Party is heading for oblivion.

It's never too late to intervene. Impeachophobia is CURABLE. Just keep Talking Impeachment.

--------------------------------
And, btw, Senators who mount a filibuster to block harmful legislation or corrupt nominations are doing their jobs. More than 40 Senators voted against Alito on the floor. It's the lunacy of Dems like the Alito 8 -- the ones who believe voting no on the floor, while refusing to join a united filibuster, is "opposition" -- that have made Democrats the "Impotent Party"

We didn't get into this mess because Fascists are willing to use legitimate powers, like the filibuster, to advance the fascist agenda. We are in this mess because anti-Facists REFUSE to use the powers we gave them -- the power of the filibuster, the power to impeach, the power to contest invalid electoral votes -- to defend the Constitution. We are in this mess because the anti-Fascists refuse to say "NO!" to open and willful abuses of power.

They refused to impeach Reagan and Bush I. They refused to contest Florida's illegitimate electors at all. Instead of ACTUALLY supporting the contest of Ohio electoral vote by voting to reject, Hillary and others offered the empty words of "supportive" speech. The list goes on and on and on.

[20score]

10. Just a quick point. It's a given about the senate, but impeachment

happens in the house. Pelosi has the pull to make the hearings happen. And that alone would help the country, and the democrats, in the short and long run.

[pat_k]

13. It is not a "given" about the Senate.

The outcome is irrelevant to the moral obligation to formally object in the name of the American people.

The Congressional oath is not an oath to win; it's an oath to fight -- to "support and defend." It doesn't matter whether or not we win the fight. All that matters is the we FIGHT.

The outcome is irrelevant, but it is NOT a given.

The Senate voted 90-9 to pass McCain's anti-torture amendment. When forced to vote "up or down" for torture and rule by signing statement, Bush and Cheney may find that too few are willing to become accessories to war crimes to save their asses.

More importantly, it would probably never get to a vote in the Senate. You really think Republicans -- even those willing to vote against American Principle and for Fascist Principle -- will be eager to go on the record confirming the principle that Congress has NO POWER? You really think they want to officially confirm the fascist fantasy that an American President (e.g., President Obama) has absolute and unlimited authority to break law at will and defy Congressional supena to "protect us"?

If articles are voted out of the House we are far more likely to see a quick 1-2-3 "deal" -- 1) the resignation of Cheney, 2) the confirmation of a VP like Danforth or some other "caretaker pres," and 3) the resignation of Bush.



Forcing a consequential "up or down" vote or impeach/remove with the maximum public attention is what duty demands. Force Members to pass judgment on Bush and Cheney and cast their votes. Give us OUR chance to pass judgment on what they do with OUR votes.

[20score]

15. Kind of the whole point of my original post, don't you think? But, I was in a

bit of a hurry because I'm at work and don't have time for details now.

[pat_k]

16. Spot on! (nt)

[Fluffdaddy]

5. Not going to happen...........ever. Let it go people.

We had 2 years and nothing close to Impeachment Hearings has happened...............and it never will.

The GOP had more balls then we do

[20score]

7. And that's a damn shame.

[pat_k]

12. Nope. Now is the time to pull out all the stops.

Despite relentless efforts by the "leadership" to suppress support for impeachment, support remains as strong as ever.

We show up at town meetings. We show up at their offices. They tell us to go away and leave them alone. More of us show up.

Articles of impeachment for BOTH Bush and Cheney have now been introduced. We were told that would "never happen." The case for impeachment was put before the House Judiciary committee, and the public. There was no "backlash." The opponents of impeachment didn't defend. They sputtered. One unwittingly made the case for impeachment.

The Articles against Bush just gained http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x3479564">another co-sponsor.

It would be daft to give up now. We are advancing, they are giving ground.

Pelosi is returning to the Hill hot off her http://www.nytimes.com/2008/08/15/us/politics/15web-hulse.html?_r=2&oref=slogin&pagewanted=print&oref=slogin">Why-Haven’t-You Impeached-the-President Tour

One by one the "reasons" for refusing to impeach have crumbled. The last bastion -- the lunatic idea that dereliction of duty is the path to the White House -- is falling.

Bush and Cheney are the most loathed occupants of the White House in modern American history, but their minion, McCain, is neck and neck with the Democratic nominee.

The publics disdain for the impotent Democratic "leadership," who were sweep into power in a rush of hope by a nation clamoring for an escape from Bush World, rivals their disdain for Bush himself.

For years, our warnings that impeach is a moral and political loser have been dismissed. Now our assessment is panning out.

While they were away, Suskind's "The Way of the World: A Story of Truth and Hope in an Age of Extremism" came out. The full effect has yet to be felt, but the intolerable abuses reported, and the stature the person reporting, http://judiciary.house.gov/news/080811.html">lit a fire under Conyers.

And a few weeks before Suskind's book, we saw the release of Jane Mayer's "The Dark Side" which traces torture to the White House. It is a devastating compilation and expansion of past reporting on the 'torture team."

Twin realities are coming hope to roost. The Democratic "lets all just get along with war criminals" strategy has failed and the magnitude of the the war crimes and abuses of power are getting wider and wider public attention.

At this point in time, the very real consequences of failing to act can tip the scale.

Panic is setting in. As they run around trying to figure out how to "get our message out" we need to get in there and make it clear that their "message" IS OUT. The message sent by their opposition to impeachment http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=3961601&mesg_id=3963570">is loud and clear.

They have a choice. Move to impeach and transform the message from one of surrender to one of REAL Hope and REAL Change, or stubbornly hold to a morally indefensible course that gains them nothing.



Now is not the time to lay off. It is a tipping point. It's the time to pull out all the stops.

It's the time to keep Talking Impeachment.

http://talkingimpeachment.com

[Independent_Liberal]

21. Thank you, pat_k.

To me, that sums it up very nicely. I agree. And I will NEVER "let it go" even though people like Fluffdaddy want me to.

[RoccoR5955]

8. Investigation, Impeachment, Incarceration... It's the LAW!

And the American way!

[20score]

11. One more quick point, impeachment hearings would certainly

turn the media and electorate away from Caribou Barbie.

[libertypirate]

17. The problem is crusty-crat politics, not desire

The crusty-crat crowd is primarily made of the legacy power brokers, and those they protect to protect themselves. They may sound like your friend, smile at you, and maybe even ask how your love one is; please don't be fooled. They are a viscous sort that starts wars because they can reduce complicated reasons why not into simplistic reasoning why too. We know they don't deal in reality and what reality. All the power they have only exists while they have a vehicle to deliver it.

Pelosi has a perception problem when she sides with the crusty class. We all know they are holding dirt on each other in a pyramid power scheme of he who has the most dirt has the most power.

[bamacrat]

22. Pelosi is weak. Somebody needs to blow W so she would know its ok to impeach this fucker.

Im sorry but if the roles were reversed and a dem had done the things * has he would have been thrown out of office faster than a republican can say "Praise the Lord."

[20score]

24. Or, as Bill Maher said a long time ago. "Impeach him for lying about a fish."

But, blow job would work too.