Why are some here against a bail out? Here is why:

[The Straight Story]

1. We have heard it all before - give us what we want now or bad things will happen to America (ala 9/11 and patriot act).

2. Along with #1 - a trust issue. Someone in government or a big company tells us we need something to save ourselves and we later learn it was a sour deal.

3. We have heard that the government might make a profit off the deal. If there is a profit to be made, why aren't there a bunch of investors leaping at this?

4. We literally have people dying over health care crap in this country, but few see that as a good reason to jump up and within a week or so propose a solution and implement it.

5. Complexity - this appears to be a complex issue which arose over time and you just want to throw money at it?

6. You have hung many people out to dry over credit issues (people with bad credit get higher interest loans if they can get a loan, pay more for car insurance, et al) and yet we keep bailing out corporations which have a failed business model. We often fail due to circumstances beyond our control (get a loan, lose your job, can't pay and now you are seen as unworthy - companies get loans, fail, we give em more because we see value in helping them out. Those who most need loans can't get them or have to pay a ton more for em).

7. Where is the money going? Who gets checks, when they cash them who do they pay, and who will oversee it all? So far that does not seem to be a priority. Of course maybe I just missed it all.

All that said - yes I understand the consequences as SOME see them if we don't cough up the dough. I don't want people to suffer, I don't want to see job losses and people going hungry.

Never have wanted that, never will. I will willingly support this bailout - but what I want to see from our elected dems is that they also recognize that there already millions going hungry, homeless, without health care, don't have the money to get car insurance (which is against the law), etc and so on AND DO SOMETHING ABOUT THAT AS WELL.

Many are suffering already, but when people in power see themselves in jeopardy they leap to action. Save America, go to war, bail out bad investments, etc.

Your avg family and mom and pop places have been suffering for years now under the burden of wars, no health care, job security, free trade that has moved jobs overseas, and so on. People working two or more jobs at crap wages just to be able to survive.

Along come folks who fucked over the system, made bad investments, and suddenly we are ready to help because we see a crisis. From car makers to wall street we keep bailing out folks for the good of us all.

Well, we have been asking for a bailout for a long time on issues but we were ignored. And now you want to take OUR money we worked hard for to shore up a floundering mess that was made by poor decisions within our own government and by investors.

And you expect us to just fawn over you for saving us.

You have yet to save us. You have yet to do the things we elected you to do.

Forgive me for being a tad skeptical of your claims, like my bad credit rating causes me pain, your bad track record is now causing you the same. You easily fund wars, but not the programs we - the taxpayers whose money you are using - get left in the dust.

[Zhade]

1. 8. This is economic terrorism from people who have lied constantly for years.

Fuck them and fuck the bailout.

K/R

[Glorfindel]

8. There are countries where criminals like these Wall Street sharks

would be stood up against a wall and shot, and good riddance to them. We, on the other hand, being more civilized, will steal yet more tax money from the already impoverished to reward these insanely greedy monsters for their sins. How very, very nice of us. :nuke:

[moodforaday]

37. And it looks like Helicopter Ben

is going to have his day. He's going to earn his nickname.

[soulcore]

2. K&R!

For us folks without any stocks, 401k, or retirement packages this is simply corporate welfare for greedy wall street execs who don't want to have to downsize their fucking mansions.

[Daemonaquila]

45. That goes for us folks WITH 401Ks, stocks, etc., too

I am lucky enough to have investments (that are hurting today, and will for a while). But I and many others in my position likewise feel this is nothing but corporate welfare. The bailout will do little to help us. Without it, we'll watch our investments yo-yo in scary ways for weeks or months. But in the end, I want my investments to be based on real money and real value. That means helping out Main Street, not Wall Street. All we will get out of a Wall Street bailout are more illusory securities and a market that continues to be poisoned by them. Let's get people's homes and jobs taken care of. If we do it right, we don't solve the current fiscal crisis - we get America back on track.

[lostnotforgotten]

3. Right On - Yet I Do Not Willingly Support This Bailout - Too Much Bad Blood

Caused by the Plutocrat, Fat Cat, Freeper Republican Class.

[BlooInBloo]

4. There's no problem at all. I know this because DUers against the bailout tell me so.

[Pale Blue Dot]

5. Can you please explain exactly how this SOLVES the problem?

Since you're so much in favor of the bailout, I'm sure that you can be articulate about it.

[BlooInBloo]

7. There is no problem.

[The Straight Story]

15. There may well be a problem

But there have bigger problems for DECADES for people that have not been addressed/solved. If the dems want me to be on board with this, then they damned well better work as hard for the problems many of us face day to day.

Do I need some big wig economist to go up to the hill and explain to them all the other troubles we have before they listen? I thought that is why we voted them in based on what they said they would do.

[Two Americas]

17. that is not honest

I don't think anyone is saying that there is "no problem." Claiming that people are saying that is simply a brazen and intentional misrepresentation of other people's positions to bully and antagonize them.

Is it a coincidence that those who are aggressively promoting this plan to bully every working person in the country are resorting to bullying here when they don't get their way?

You won. Why are you not happy with that, not satisfied? What do you care if we don't agree with you? How does that affect you? You are obviously not trying to persuade anyone, but post just to strike out and insult and smear those who have committed the great and unpardonable sin of holding a different opinion than you have.

[BlooInBloo]

19. I won? hahaha! If this is what winning feels like, I think I'll find another game.

[Two Americas]

20. you support the bailout

You oppose those who don't.

The bailout is going to go through.

What is it that you want to feel that you aren't feeling?

:shrug:

[BlooInBloo]

21. Being for the best of available options, all of which are bad....

Fuck it. Nevermind.

[Two Americas]

22. ok

But must we all see this as "the best of available options?"

[moodforaday]

38. You don't understand.

Yo are tryingt to make a rational, weighed argument, but rational arguments are futile when people are in panic mode. After 9/11 you were either for the Patriot Act, or you wanted the terrorists to win. It's the same mentality prevailing now: if you're against the bailout, you must believe there is no problem and/or you are literally swimming in cash and won't be affected by whatever happens.

And unless Dems don't give Bush what he wants, there will be a mushroom cloud over Wall Street. They've already taken most of your freedoms, so now why not give them your money too? Then the transformation will be complete.

[western mass]

36. Strawman Alert!

Strawman: nobody is claiming there isn't a problem.

The claim is that the bailout isn't the solution - it's just another swindle.

[moodforaday]

39. Wrong!

You are either with Wall Street, or against Wall Street. Should have learned that well enough the first time, citizen. There is no third option. There is no gray area. The gray area is where the terrorists hide. Do YOU want to see a mushroom cloud over Wall Street?

If you liked the Patriot Act, you're going to LOVE the bailout!

[K Gardner]

6. Absolutely excellent.. t hank you.

[stray cat]

9. Does the patient live or die without treatment - why bother with doctors and treatment

We may get lucky, nothing will get done and we can test how necessary the bail out is over the next year....

[Critters2]

18. That's how we run health care in this country...where real PEOPLE die.

I guess I've missed the threads where you were insisting we do something about that.

[Two Americas]

24. doctors and treatment?

This administration is made up of thieves and torturers. They are ones who have almost killed the patient.

This bailout is like turning a beating victim over to the perpetrator rather than taking them to the hospital. Would that be "better than doing nothing?"

[riverdeep]

40. Isn't the first rule of healthcare, 'first, do no harm'?

The treatment may be worse than the disease.

[WestWingEmpty]

10. How about this.

Give nothing to Wall St.

Put $700 Billion into healthcare, unemployement, helping prevent mortage forclosures and other projects that will directly help those that will be affected by the recession comming?

Plus let's remember it's not $700 Billion. We have already let them spend about that much on AIG, Freddy and Fanny, ect. Let the crooked companies die and just help the people directly.

[EmilyAnne]

43. Do we have 700 billion dollars to give away? We have a massive deficit.

I think what some people believe is that this bailout will bring potential profits and will keep the economy flowing.
I don't know what to think.

[Two Americas]

47. yes

Do you know why?

We Democrats have always believed that investing in people will always pay back huge dividends, and that this is the only path to prosperity.

Human beings are not a burden, an expense, a commodity, or a drag on the system. Republicans think that we are all of those things. They think that human beings only have value to the degree they are as asset on the marketplace, and that we can only care about people when we can afford it. A dollar spent on a person is a dollar they can't play with to try to amass massive wealth. A dollar denied the market and given to person makes us all wealthier and repays itself thousands of times over. That is the real economy. It is based on people and it is there to serve people.

It is the morally correct thing to do to help people, and it is also the best thing from a practical standpoint - it is always the best investment and pays the greatest dividends. To believe that - to know that - is what it means to be a Democrat, and to be a Democrat means knowing that and promoting and defending it.

[girl gone mad]

11. Well stated, my dear. n/t

[NC_Nurse]

12. I agree. I'm not deadset against the bailout, like some are, but I'm not happy

about it. I do feel that it may be necessary given that people I DO trust, like Obama and Barney Frank are working on it.
Of course, if it was just the Bush admin and the Repigs, I wouldn't give them ANY benefit of the doubt. They suck.

The reality is, I don't know all there is to know about the economy. I'll wager most here don't. I wish I understood exactly what we're up against. I don't.
I KNEW Bush was lying on the run-up to the Iraq War. I don't feel quite the same about this. He wasn't even involved in this until last week when he couldn't ignore it any longer.

I knew I didn't want the original plan - with NO oversight and all executive branch power over it. I'm not sure what to think about this compromise.

I DO agree with all of your qualms. I'm just not sure it won't be in our own interest to go along with it this time.

[The Straight Story]

14. Agree, but sadly so:

"I'm just not sure it won't be in our own interest to go along with it this time."

It may well be and if so - count me in, especially if it is helping the little folks.

But I am not surprised that myself and others are leery of all this, we have damned good reason to be.

[lutherj]

13. Capitalism in this country has become a predatory enterprise. They are strip-mining

wealth out the middle class. Corporate interests have taken over our democracy, and we now live in a glorified post-industrial feudalism. Finance capital is more than 80% of the economy. By some estimates it's as high as 98% of the economy. These corporations just push pieces of paper around, they don't make anything of substance, and yet they rule our economy; this huge pile of abstract "wealth" overwhelms the ability of everyday people -- the people who create the real wealth of our society -- overwhelms their ability to keep a roof over their head or put a meal on the table. The system is rancid to the core. It will only change once the whole house of cards comes down.

I personally find it encouraging that in the course of this bailout so many ordinary Americans have expressed outrage, and shown a deeper understanding of the system than I thought they had.

[scarletwoman]

16. Pretty good list. But this part:

but what I want to see from our elected dems is that they also recognize that there already millions going hungry, homeless, without health care, don't have the money to get car insurance (which is against the law), etc and so on AND DO SOMETHING ABOUT THAT AS WELL.

You're kidding, right? That is SOOOO not going to happen! In fact, what WILL happen is that the budgets for all social safety net programs will be stripped bare, because we will be told that they are unaffordable.

The money that goes into this bailout is NOT money that we actually have, the government is simply going borrow MORE money to pay for it, just like it borrows money to pay for the Iraq Occupation.

We're just piling a gigantic new chunk of debt onto our already ballooning deficit. Our grandchildren's children will paying off the interest on this debt.

This bailout is the Anti-New Deal.

sw

[Pastiche423]

27. That is exactly what this bailout is...

the ANTI-NEW DEAL!

There will be no New Deal for anyone.

[scarletwoman]

28. I don't understand why so many people don't see this. It's so obvious!

Glad to see you, Pastiche!

sw

[Pastiche423]

31. I don't understand why any DUers are for this

Many of us are already hanging on by a thread. If they go through w/this corporate welfare, there will be no, nada, zip, zilch badly needed funds for healthcare, education, crumbling infrastructure or housing.

They are fucking trying (and will probably suceed) to bankrupt the next administration.

Recently I got docked $400.00 out of my SSDI check because of changes, that no one was informed about in Medicare that changed from 2007 to 2008.

The change? How much money one is allowed to have in their bank account(s). I had been living like a pauper in order to save enough money for a badly needed powerchair because MEDICARE WON'T PAY FOR ONE.

So, by doing the right thing, I get punished, yet Wall Street that has fucked up the entire country gets bailed out.

At least my representative is not voting for this give-a-way.

[scarletwoman]

32. Goddamn! I'm so sorry to hear about you getting screwed -- it's absurd, it's criminal!

Class War -- we've REALLY got to start fighting back!

:hug:
sw

[Zhade]

34. That's criminal. Fucking criminal!

People are scared.

Remember WMD WMD WMD?

Same here.

[Myrina]

23. HELL YEAH!!! with one slight correction:

... not so much a 'bad investment' or 'bad business model' on their part, but unbridled GREED.
And greed like some of these mofo's have running thru their veins should NOT be rewarded, and certainly not paid for by the millions of us working stiffs who've been fucked over by it.



:applause: :applause:

[intheflow]

25. Great post, TSS!

You've laid out all the pieces I've been thinking about in one concise post. Thank you!

[Annoyinglysmart]

26. Great post and nice picture

You are pretty.

[The Straight Story]

30. The pic in my sig line is my wife

;)

[prayin4rain]

29. Yep, yep, yep, yep, yep, yep, yep and yep n/t

[magellan]

33. Absolutely. There are so many things not to trust in this

....I'd write a list but I have a headache.

And I see they've already got their shills out on the corporate media planting seeds of lowered expectations tonight -- "this may not work, we have to give it time, it won't be instantaneous, things might get worse before they get better" -- all designed to help people explain away the bad signs that appear when this bailout fails to work. As it won't.

Remember "I never said Hussein was working with al Qaeda"?

[Land Shark]

35. Check out sec. 119 in bill: Automatic STAY of PROVEN constitutional violations!

see this thread for analysis
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x4116021

[depakid]

41. Basically, there are a LOT more ideologues on this site than I ever imagined

In some respects, on this issue it's a mirror image of FR.

[MadHound]

42. Some of us are against the bailout because we have the good common sense to realize

That the cure is worse than the disease. You add this kind of proposed liquidity to the system and high, even hyper inflation is the result. You add this sort of debt load on top of an already staggering debt load and watch our US Treasury Bonds get downgraded. When that happens, we will have no money for government to spend on anything. No Social Security, no infrastructure, no defense, zero, zilch, zip, nada. This sort of crisis is an extinction level economic event. It will destroy our government, our society. Is this what you want? Moody's was already threatening to downgrade our bonds due to our debt loads back in January. Already commercial houses are starting to downgrade US bonds just on the threat of a bailout, watch what happens when it goes through.

This is a horrible proposition, once again we seeing fear used to stampede us over the cliff. Don't fall for it.

[mudder75090]

44. I've never posted on here before

But this is a GREAT read!

Really inspiring.

Nice work!

[pberq]

46. Excellent post!

See also David Sirota's take:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=103&topic_id=388842&mesg_id=388842

And Dennis Kucinich:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=103&topic_id=388842&mesg_id=388842