HamdenRice
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Tue Sep-30-08 09:03 AM
Original message |
Poll question: Sense of DU on investments-A community college prof. with $50,000 TIAA-CREF stock for retirement is |
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Edited on Tue Sep-30-08 09:04 AM by HamdenRice
I'm just puzzled by some of the posts I'm reading, so I'm trying to get a sense of DU's feelings -- yes, feelings not analysis -- about the very idea of savings and investment.
Please feel free to -- in fact please do -- elaborate on how you feel by replying to the OP.
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dmallind
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Tue Sep-30-08 09:07 AM
Response to Original message |
1. OK so this one is looking clear, |
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Edited on Tue Sep-30-08 09:08 AM by dmallind
How about we go to, say (and this is not me or anyone in my family) a middle management type in a co-op utility company who over 25 years has a 401K balance of $300,000? Parasite or saver?
(eventually we will reach a job and savings level where people become parasites not savers and I am as curious as the OP appraently is to find out where that shift occurs.....)
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HamdenRice
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Tue Sep-30-08 09:16 AM
Response to Reply #1 |
8. Yeah, that's what I'm trying to find out |
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Edited on Tue Sep-30-08 09:17 AM by HamdenRice
I guess I'm doing a "feelings" auction, and your scenario somewhere next!
:rofl:
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gateley
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Tue Sep-30-08 09:09 AM
Response to Original message |
2. Although I understand the argument that investing in the market is just |
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gambling, it's not that cut and dried.
Historically, the stock markets have performed well.
People were able to put money away into their 401Ks, able to defer income tax on the amount contributed.
Some businesses offered a matching plan which made it even more attractive.
I don't for a moment think that your professor is greedy or reckless for 'gambling'.
People felt the return would be the best for their investment - almost like comparing banks to choose which pays the higher interest.
These are good, hard working people, doing what they can so they can survive in their retirement years.
And I don't have a 401K.
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Frustratedlady
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Tue Sep-30-08 09:13 AM
Response to Reply #2 |
4. I never felt like I was gambling or a leech when investing in a mutual fund. |
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I was saving toward retirement.
When I questioned the possibility of another Depression, I was told that would never happen, as safeguards had been put in place to protect the market from failing.
Then came George.
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harun
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Tue Sep-30-08 09:12 AM
Response to Original message |
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If the person gives a bit to charity each year then B. If not, A.
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hack89
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Tue Sep-30-08 09:15 AM
Response to Reply #3 |
6. Looking out for your family first makes you a parasite? |
kath
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Tue Sep-30-08 09:44 AM
Response to Reply #6 |
23. You don't think that even people of modest means should give a bit to charity each year? |
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Edited on Tue Sep-30-08 09:45 AM by kath
Sheesh.
Even when we were still paying off student loans and money was fairly tight, we still gave a little to charities like Doctors Without Borders and Habitat for Humanity. We've added other charities over the years, and increased the amounts. When the big tsunami hit, we dug deep and donated to CARE. They're now on our annual list. We don't have a college fund, we drive old cars, etc. But I just wouldn't feel right if we weren't doing *something* to help the poor and hungry.
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hack89
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Tue Sep-30-08 10:18 AM
Response to Reply #23 |
25. Don't put words in my mouth |
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the question is why failing to give to charity makes someone saving for retirement (and the kid's college, and the elderly parents) a parasite?
I don't see the connection.
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murdoch
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Tue Sep-30-08 09:15 AM
Response to Original message |
5. You are petit bourgeois |
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The world has several billion people in it.
The majority of adult people in the world have no money to investment - not as landlords, not as stock (capital) investors or employers, and for the most part, not as moneylenders (although people who get a few dollars interest on their checking accounts spreads it out).
Every dollar made on rent, profit or interest is money made as a rentier. It is unearned money, parasitism, money made off others labor. Period.
It is the real world, not some religious moral thing. My checking account has a low interest rate, but it still has one. I don't flagellate myself due to this.
The money doesn't matter. The real question is the relationship. As a stockowner, you have a relations to the means of production, a relationship to the people doing the work. They work, they create the wealth. The first few hours a day they work for themselves, they create their wages. At the end of the day, you are not paying them for their work, they are working for your profit. This is your relationship to them.
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HamdenRice
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Tue Sep-30-08 09:18 AM
Response to Reply #5 |
10. I assume you don't mean "you" personally |
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This isn't based on me. I'm asking about a hypothetical person.
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dmallind
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Tue Sep-30-08 09:36 AM
Response to Reply #5 |
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What exactly is "labor" that it alone creates value. Is labor only physical work? If it's mental work too (which would include teachers, doctors and so on) what attributes of mental work that apply to seeking returns based on profit make them parisitism? Where exactly does it begin?
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DrDan
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Tue Sep-30-08 09:44 AM
Response to Reply #5 |
22. This is not necessarily parasitism. |
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Parasitism usually infers one of a pair is rewarded at the expense of the other. Mutualism, on the other hand, both benefit. In most cases you cite, this is the case. Someone has a property and makes some money on its rental - the other benefits by obtaining a place to live - without having to buy a home of their own. Or someone loans some money at an interest - the other benefits from having the capital for their use.
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Lydia Leftcoast
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Tue Sep-30-08 09:15 AM
Response to Original message |
7. Not really a saver, since you never see your 401k deduction |
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and seriously, $50,000 won't even get you through a year after you retire. I switched my meager account to mostly annuities years ago, and I'm now withdrawing it over time to put it into a self-employed IRA that I can actually add to at a decent rate, now that I no longer teach.
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Indiana_Dem
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Tue Sep-30-08 09:17 AM
Response to Original message |
9. Here are some other scenarios: |
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Someone who had nothing most of their life and inherited $1 million from a parent who worked as a railroader and pipefitter for Chrysler who saved that money their entire life.
Another person who won the lottery.
parasite and leach?? Don't think so.
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CoffeeCat
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Tue Sep-30-08 09:18 AM
Response to Original message |
11. I'm failing to understand... |
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...how anyone could ever think that someone who SAVES and INVESTS money is--in any way--bad.
Someone who works hard--while saving and investing their money--is doing all of the right things.
I'm astounded that anyone would characterize any such person as "a parasite."
That would be bizarre and outrageous.
Maybe such a person needs to pick up a copy of "The Millionaire Next Door."
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HamdenRice
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Tue Sep-30-08 09:20 AM
Response to Reply #11 |
13. I'm not saying that. I'm asking. But look around DU the last few days. nt |
CoffeeCat
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Tue Sep-30-08 09:42 AM
Response to Reply #13 |
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I haven't seen the DU comments that prompted your OP, but I was responding to anyone who would make such a comment.
I know you weren't suggesting that about the community-college professor in your example. :)
I guess I just have to wonder...what have we become? People who live conservatively and save/invest their money--instead of blowing it on lavish vacations, more Pottery Barn and a television that covers and entire wall--are seen as bad, by some?
The circle drives of our suburbs have become America's joke. So many people competing with each other and accumulating things, trinkets and status symbols that they cannot afford.
If we want to judge someone--let's throw a few stones at the Biff and Muffy--who both work and have about $30,000 in credit card debt, 2 cars that they're leasing for a combined total of $1,100 a month and a $300,000 mortgage that they can't afford. They save nothing--even though they make a combined six-figure salary--because they'd rather impress the neighbors with their $3,000 grill that is the size of a small car.
We've got our priorities out of whack in this country, and it's about to come crashing down all around us.
God bless the college professor who has had the good sense to invest wisely and spend responsibly. He's the HERO in all of this--because he didn't capitulate to the rampant hyper-consumerism that has metastasized in this country.
Anyone who hasn't lived beyond their means in the past 20 years, is a courageous trailblazer, in my opinion. That's how down-the-drain our country is!
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HamdenRice
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Tue Sep-30-08 10:08 AM
Response to Reply #21 |
24. I'm very encouraged by how much fat there is to trim, actually |
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Edited on Tue Sep-30-08 10:10 AM by HamdenRice
We talk about an energy crisis, but teenagers drive to the malls of our suburbs and circle aimlessly, mindlessly looking at each other.
I live in NYC -- the far edge of the outer boroughs -- but even here, I walk and use buses and the subway to get everywhere. I have a car, but walk to the grocery store. It's just such an efficient way to live.
My cousins live in suburban Richmond, and they have to spend probably $1 on gas to buy $2 worth of milk. The suburbs (the real ones, not the fake Archie Bunker style subway suburb I live in) are crazy!
Btw, I always wanted to ask you, is Husb2Sparkles your husband?
Sorry if that is presumptuous.
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CoffeeCat
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Tue Sep-30-08 10:53 AM
Response to Reply #24 |
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...have become bastions of silliness. I count myself in engaging in some of that silliness, but at least we try to be aware of it, and change it!
No, Husb2Sparkles isn't my husband. I think his wife is a DUer though. I think I've seen them posting about each other. :)
I applaud all of your walking and subway riding. That's so cool. I love those "Archie bunker" style suburbs. So much character! Ahhh...I long for the days where you could walk to the corner grocer or hardware store. Sounds like you've got that.
I'm in silly suburbia. It's too far to even walk to my children's school! Everyone drives...300 mothers descend on this school, in their SUVs every day. It's nutty.
Hey, I appreciated your previous posts on finances, in particular the one about intra-bank borrowing that stopped for a bit last week. Haven't heard a word about that from the MSM. Isn't that totally amazing????
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Junkdrawer
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Tue Sep-30-08 09:19 AM
Response to Original message |
12. Strawman. Believe it or not, that's not who Paulson is trying to save. n/t |
slipslidingaway
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Tue Sep-30-08 09:31 AM
Response to Reply #12 |
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"Believe it or not, that's not who Paulson is trying to save."
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RUMMYisFROSTED
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Tue Sep-30-08 09:31 AM
Response to Reply #12 |
2speak
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Tue Sep-30-08 09:21 AM
Response to Original message |
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you need to have a choice for invested in a system that was designed by crooks for crooks and furthering their goals and the tools for the demise of the American people. Like the moment we are in now supposedly and were in 1929.
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Coventina
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Tue Sep-30-08 09:25 AM
Response to Original message |
15. I can't believe some of the stuff I've been reading on DU recently |
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I can't even believe that you would even have to ask such a question.
I have 401k plans because that's what big companies have now, not traditional pension plans. It wasn't my choice to be a "leech" or a "parasite", unless you want to call my working for those companies a choice to become a leech or parasite. But, gee, I have this bad habit of trying to eat a few times a day.
I now have a job with absolutely NO provision for retirement at all. So all I have is what WAS in my 401k plans, plus whatever Social Security might be able to give me when I retire.
I barely make 5 digits a year.
But hordes of posters are super-pleased that I "gambled" and lost.
Just unbelievable.
These attitudes are not liberal or progressive.
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slipslidingaway
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Tue Sep-30-08 09:29 AM
Response to Original message |
16. If someone is invested mostly in stocks they need to realize |
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that the market can go sideways for a number of years. Take a look at a long term chart and note the period of the 1960's, 1970's and early 1980's, unfortunately too many people remember only the 80's and 90's. :shrug: http://stockcharts.com/charts/historical/djia1900.html
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RUMMYisFROSTED
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Tue Sep-30-08 09:29 AM
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17. Change the example to, let's say, Hank Paulson. |
HamdenRice
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Tue Sep-30-08 11:51 AM
Response to Original message |
27. So far: 8% think that a community college prof with TIAA CREF is a bloodsucking |
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capitalist parasite.
Interesting.
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