Several points about the rescue plan

[nadinbrzezinski]

nobody who is honest about this is saying that it will stop this from happening, just will reduce the SEVERITY of it, big difference... we are in a recession... there is a difference from a light one, to a severe one, or even a depression.

Anybody who is honest is also telling you that this bill is far from perfect

And finally... this is JUST THE FIRST OF A SERIES OF BILLS that will have to come in the next two years or so... read this again, the first of a series of bills that will be required to address multiple aspects of this crisis... and each of them WILL HAVE to be laser sharp (and we need a majority that will allow them to pass regardless of the free market religious fanatics in the House in particular)

It depends on how much they hear from you (the american people, not specifically you) about the TYPE of legislation that they will pass... this includes taking to the streets and ahem hard core organizing.

This is one of those rare moments where we could and should get the type of progressive legislation that we need... but only if we demand it... and that is exactly what I am telling congress every time I call them. SInce I READ the damn thing I can also tell them in detailed form what I don't like about this bill and what I like about it (and there is precious little and some of that has gone away due to the negotiating with the Lucy congress)

But the alternative is to do nothing... and see a severe downturn.. one that may even FIT the definition of a Depression... 10% or more reduction in GNP. I'd take even a deep recession over a depression any day of the week and twice on Sunday...

Problem is that people are going on emotion, and I hate that we are at this point as well. I am angry as well... but have not let emotion take over instead looking at this as impassionately as I can.

[ContinentalOp]

1. Please don't talk about honesty and then say that...

"the alternative is to do nothing." That is the most dishonest false choice of all. "IT'S THIS BAILOUT OR NOTHING!" Please.

That's what they said about the original Paulson plan. That's what they said about the revised plan on Monday. As others have pointed out, doing nothing seems to be working because the plan is getting better.

[nadinbrzezinski]

2. It is not a false choice given the history of these crisis

across history

They tend to get DEEPER when there is no trust in the banking system of ANY country... perhaps you should do some readying on the history of banking system crisis... there is plenty of that in the interwebs.

Now you are right, there are choices

Perhaps they should offer currency controls, privatization, end of all subsidies, like the AG ones... THAT is also a choice... that is an IMF program

Care to tell me how well those work?

[girl gone mad]

3. That's going to happen anyhow..

simply because the American consumer is tapped out.

They can't prop the system up anymore. There are no more people to put at the bottom of the pyramid.

Congress is pretending to do something to save "Main Street". In reality, we'll be buying up bad debts that the market doesn't want. It's unlikely to restore the public trust in these institutions.

Banks will take the money and run. Probably into commodities.

In the end, we'll still have the same problems and we'll have $700B fewer to spend shoring up the economy.

[nadinbrzezinski]

4. So you'd rather have a depression and not even try to reduce the severity

ok... we get it


I fear you have no clue of the difference between a recession... a deep recession and a depression

[girl gone mad]

10. Where did I say that?

Don't put words in my mouth.

The banking crisis we went through in Texas was much worse than what we've seen so far in this downturn.

[nadinbrzezinski]

22. Operative words... so far

you do know the state of Massachusetts was denied credit yesterday and they have to go DEEPLY into their reserves

You know that will EXPAND to other states... no you don't

The great depression didi not come out of Zeus head fully formed over the course of a day... it took years for it to fully be recognized

[martymar64]

51. Even with the bailout the system will collapse.

Hyperinflation is going to occur within the next 6 months. That will result in nobody being able to afford even the barest necessities. Unemployment will jump to 25%, poverty will rise to 50% and crime will be the new growth industry. We won't have soup lines because the government will be broke because we gave all of our money away. The next step will be mass starvation.
This time next year may just be the beginning of an American Holodmor.
I hope I'm wrong but I'm usually right.

[nadinbrzezinski]

65. I love nihilism

Perhaps when I worked in EMS I should have dropped the hose... I mean not like I could stop the fire anyway, so why try?

[martymar64]

87. Try or not, the result will be the same. Our system is collapsing

Expect food riots in the next six months and cities to start burning in the next year. Like Bob Marley sang "A hungry mob is an angry mob"
Also , I'm amused that everybody is arguing about this here on DU when not one single one of us will have even one iota of effect on what the "government" does. They are going to pass the bailout regardless of what we the people want. It's always been about what the oligarchs want and it always will be. That is an undisputed fact throughout history. Our discussions and arguments here are worthless as the money is going to be once the bailout goes through.
My advice is to do whatever you have to to protect you and those around you. That means hoarding food so you won't starve. It also means buying weapons and ammo to protect that food from those that will inevitably try to steal it from you. Our system is in its death throes on the scale of the fall of the Soviet Union or the fall of the Roman Empire. We may not even have the same system of government in four years. Governments don't hold up well in the face of famine and massive civil unrest that is sure to come, despite what they do with the bailout.

[nadinbrzezinski]

94. You know if that is your attitude, and I mean this from the bottom of my heart,

what the hell are you doing on a political activist board?

Shouldn't you be at home hoarding food, coin and ammo? Oh and don't forget the cleaning kits

[martymar64]

108. I am at home.

I intend to survive this. Also, what is the proper attitude when faced with the utter destruction of our society?

Levity? Anguish? Rage? Tears? Joy? Apathy?

I'm just giving out useful advice to ensure physical survival.

You can't eat money, it doesn't taste good.

[nadinbrzezinski]

115. So how do you intend to rebuild utopia after the great fall?

After all you do not intend to do any activism, so why be here?

[martymar64]

123. How do you know what I do away from DU?

You don't know me. I talk to everybody I come in contact with about the issues of the day. I'm not into being parts of organizations, those lead to authoritarianism on both the large and small scale. You're a fine example of small scale authoritarianism, you're trying to browbeat and bully me and anyone else that dares to disagree with you on any level.

This is not NadinbrzinskiUnderground.com

So if you intend to continue insulting me, kindly fuck off and welcome to ignore.

[nadinbrzezinski]

133. Oh goody...

as to what you do off line... hate to break this to you but EVERY SUCCESSFUL revolution requires organization

[anigbrowl]

96. Fine, then we may as well pass it

You say the system is going to collapse anyway, so we won't be any the worse off. If it does so the $700 billion we 'save' won't be worth the paper it's printed on.

[SidneyCarton]

112. You're usually right?

Great, then predict something useful, like the powerball numbers.

An American Holodomor... gads, sometimes I think the posters in this forum actually get orgasmic over the prospect of mass death.

[martymar64]

118. I'm not wishing it, it's more a cassandra thing.

I knew something on this scale would happen after 8 years of bush rule. And I was right. I knew that the war in Iraq would become a quagmire. I was right there too.

I don't relish the possibility of being right about this. I hope that I am wrong about this. I hope that none of my predictions come true. I hope that Obama enacts a New New Deal program that will turn us around.

I don't know what will happen here. Neither do you. Neither does Nadine. Neither does Bush, Paulson, Obama or Biden. I based my predictions from my reading of history, especially regarding the falls of empires. They probably come from other perspectives. But the truth is, we're now in uncharted waters. It could be smooth sailing or the Scylla could be lurking right under the surface.

[SidneyCarton]

124. Fair enough, my apologies for the snark.

There is an old saying: "Look into the abyss long enough and it will look through you." Dwelling on darkness, even impending darkness does not make us stronger, it merely breaks our spirit. By all means be prepared, things could likely get very bad. But the Ukrainians survived the Holodomor. They survived an even more brutal ordeal in the Nazi invasion/occupation of 1941-44. They survived the return of Stalinist government afterwards with its attendant terrors. The Ukrainians persisted, and they persist still. I do not look forward to such an ordeal, but we will survive, we will persist, and (insert deity of choice here)-willing we will be wiser and better for it.

[sarcasmo]

174. Exactly, this is nothing more than a band aid.

[movonne]

19. How do you know this bailout would keep us from a deep recession

and a depression...what about seeing that we get jobs in this country so people can go back to work and get the train back on track... th rowing money at this may not be the way to do this job..

[nadinbrzezinski]

26. That is why I said this is PART of a continuum

this is not something leaders have told you... well Obama has sort of told you... it will take more than this to fix the economy

This is not a one time solution... complex problems cannot be solved with JUST ONE solution

But if it works to even buy time to get THAT legislation in place will be amazing....

[martymar64]

54. The bailout will cause hyperinflation

Either way, we're fucked. It's like choosing between death by hanging or death by firing squad. They both result in death.

[depakid]

5. That's a nihilist view

and one that ignores the reality that things can easily get much WORSE.

[nadinbrzezinski]

8. I think you used a 50 cent word

so here is the definition for her

Nihilism (from the Latin nihil, nothing) is a philosophical position that argues that existence is without objective meaning, purpose, or intrinsic value. Nihilists generally assert that objective morality does not exist, and that no action is logically preferable to any other in regard to the moral value of one action over another. Nihilists that argue that there is no objective morality may claim that existence has no intrinsic higher meaning or goal. They may also claim that there is no reasonable proof or argument for the existence of a higher ruler or creator, or posit that even if a higher ruler or creator exists, humanity has no moral obligation to worship them.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nihilism

[depakid]

34. The sense I'm using it in is the "do nothing, because we're all screwed anyway"

connotation, which goes along the view that " the belief that destruction of existing political or social institutions is necessary for future improvement."

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/nihilist

Lot of that going around.

[nadinbrzezinski]

55. The scary part is when you ask them

what do you want to have after this is gone and buried?

No idea

Hell's bells I wish they had a plan at this point, any plan of their own

[depakid]

75. It's the emotional component that scares me

I've seen multiple posts for example that WISH for a crash- because the posters want millions of people to share and wallow in their own misfortunate. For everyone who posts things like that so blatantly- there are probably 100 others who feel that way (not realizing of course that a crash makes their ability to reverse their misfortunes far less likely)

And others where the hatred of Republicans and "fat cats" trumps any reasoned look at what's likely to happen to them (and to millions of others as well as the overall economy) which causes them to enage in "cut off nose to spite face" behavior, irrespective of the fact that a relatively few "fat cats" are going to get their comeuppance down the line either way.

Look, I don't like this bill or the circumstances that have led up to it- but having looked at the possibilities and weighed the pros and cons- it's not not difficult to reach the conclusion that it's by far the lesser of two evils.

[nadinbrzezinski]

99. I've read the damn thing and it is far from ideal

but there is another element... people really do not understand HOW the government works

They truly believe that Congress decides how the executive spends moneys assigned to them... that is when I go... did people even pay attention during civics class?

And they don't realize that at this point we are arguing about the targeted use of moneys that are chump change compared to what has already gone into the market... the US Market is up to what two trillion so far? I lost count.

[Forkboy]

132. There's an emotional component on all sides of this.

Some against it are doing what you say, so I won't expound on that. But on the side for the bailout there's just as much emotion as the other side, if not more. Many for it are reacting out of fear as much as anything. And that scares me , because good decisions are rarely the ones we make while so emotionally invested (pardon the pun) in something.

After 9/11 we all wanted the people in charge to do something, anything to make us feel safe. Out of that fear driven need the Patriot Act sailed through unread. While this crisis is of a different breed, the fear driving much of it, on both sides, is exactly the same. And in light of the very recent past that we should have been learning from, this fear factor should give us all pause.

[nadinbrzezinski]

135. Hmm remember calling my delegation at the time

and telling them NOT to roll over on the USPA

In fact, Hawaii is a USPA free zone because of my activism

But this... has not .... been building over a week, but now literally close to a year

This is FAR FROM IDEAL... but it is far more structured than the 100B here, 600B there that the fed has been throwing at this over the last year or so

[sarcasmo]

177. Nihilism, Great Nine Inch Nails song.

[girl gone mad]

15. No, it's a realistic view.

Things are going to get worse because the credit bubble has burst.

[nadinbrzezinski]

20. You stand shoulder to shoulder with many of your counterparts back in oh

1931... congratulations

[martymar64]

60. With the bailout we'll be Argentina circa 2001 writ large

Or better yet, Germany 1931. Once hyperinflation kicks in, it'll be Ukraine circa 1931. Even with the Bailout we're going to see starvation in this country on a scale never before seen. Before this is done, the death toll will be in the millions here in the good ol' USA.

[nadinbrzezinski]

82. 20 million by my extrapolation from depression era death rates

I am aware, and your point?

As I said before I used to work in EMS... you know the many times we were tempted to stop fighting a fire... but we never did

This is the equivalent

So do you want them to drop the hoses?

[martymar64]

92. I doesn't matter whether you drop the hose or not

It's a garden hose versus a forest fire. My point is that whether the bailout goes through or not, millions are going to die in the resulting conflagration. I have no power over what they do in washington, and neither do you, they'll do whatever they want. These discussion here are analogous to discussing the rearrangement of deck chairs on the Titanic.

[anigbrowl]

100. Fine. Off you go.

As you say, discussion of this is pointless, we're all doomed. thank you for your concern, we have got the memo, message received.

[martymar64]

111. Again with the insults

I see you have nothing to contribute as usual.
The discussion is pointless. Will your opinioon have even one grain of effect on what our rulers do?
Didn't think so.

Go peddle your rose-coloured glasses elsewhere.
And welcome to ignore.

[nadinbrzezinski]

110. What the fuck are you doing in an activist site then?

[martymar64]

114. So you're resorting to insults as well?

I used to value your opinion.

Sad.

[nadinbrzezinski]

116. I'm asking a serious question... this is a site for activists

you are not encouraging any activism... in fact you are encouraging people to just close off and do nothing beyond getting ready for Armageddon (this preparation should be done as well... ) but your only advise is to do nothing of an activist nature.

So once again, what are you doing on an activist site?

[martymar64]

127. This is from the About DU page

"Democratic Underground (DU) was founded on Inauguration Day, January 20, 2001, to protest the illegitimate presidency of George W. Bush and to provide a resource for the exchange and dissemination of liberal and progressive ideas. Since then, DU has become one of the premier left-wing websites on the Internet, publishing original content six days a week, and hosting one of the Web's most active left-wing discussion boards.

We welcome Democrats of all stripes, along with other progressives who will work with us to achieve our shared goals. While the vast majority of our visitors are Democrats, this web site is not affiliated with the Democratic Party, nor do we claim to speak for the party as a whole."

Now, where is the word activist in these sentences?

And what is your definition of activist? Joining a party? Going on marches? Yelling "Hooray for our side"?

Bring this up again when Skinner deputizes you as DU Police.

Now, about that ignore button.

[Forkboy]

134. That's more than disingenous, and I think you know it.

Unless you truly believe that every single DUer is busy being an activist?

[nadinbrzezinski]

136. But folks usually are NOT encouraging people NOT TO

there is a difference

[Forkboy]

142. Hey, it sucks, but doesn't change anything I said.

It's not a requisite to be on DU, and it's not pushing your viewpoint ahead one iota to take that angle. Just move on to people who might listen, though to be honest I don't see much listening going on from either side, just a lot of "I'm right and you're all idiots if you don't agree" type of stuff.

[nadinbrzezinski]

146. There's that

but there is also a lot of anger, basic anger... incredible anger

After all the boy cried wolf way too many times

I get that.

But what you are seeing we saw in '31 too. Why should I bail the fat-cats?

This is traditional in the US

That said... when somebody tells me repeatedly that trying to influence policy is a waste of my time... that is the basis for activism... and that is a problem

[chimpymustgo]

6. Thank you, girl gone mad. This bailout is bullshit.

[nadinbrzezinski]

7. So you also are all for doing nothing and ENSURING a depression?

We get it

It falls in the category of cutting your nose to spite your face

Yep, that will show them!

:sarcasm:

[chimpymustgo]

45. No, that's a very stupid reaction. I - like most people against this rape and plunder - want a

rescue that helps the American people - with transparency. There are MANY good ones out there. Kucinich has a plan. Dozens of economists have proffered ideas.

[nadinbrzezinski]

56. Tell me, be honest, how are you planning to pass this very progressive bill

in the current congress?

I'm serious here

By the way, even some members of congress have been dishonest on all of this ON ALL SIDES

And once again, this is NOT PERFECT

God quoting Obama... tell me why he is going to vote for it?

[martymar64]

63. So you'd rather ensure hyperinflation and starvation?

Both paths suck hard.

Pick your poison.

[TBF]

88. Scare tactics. We get a depression either way, at some point the market

had to correct. There are some things we should do, including raising the FDIC insurance level. But bailing out investment houses is about as high on my list of priorities as bailing out gamblers who get a little too exuberant at Delta Downs.

[nadinbrzezinski]

139. Read what was done during the depression

this is NOT about bailing bankers, but focusing monetary policy to ensure credit

I know people are NOT getting this... at all, but this is what this is about

And nobody can guarantee that will will work but I guess we should put the hoses down and wait for the crash... wait, that happened two days ago

The full effects of that mess were not felt for another three years

[jflood1016]

17. Look at the New Deal

When FDR came into office in 1933 one of the very first things he did was attempt to shore up the banking system. He shut down the banks for 4 days and then with the help of congress "bailed" out the failing banks. This greatly helped build confidence in the banking system. Later in 1933 he was able to get passed a comprehensive banking reform that included the FDIC.

[martymar64]

46. My advice, start hoarding food and coins

Once the bailout kicks in, the Fed will start running the printing presss nonstop, causing a severe devaluation of the dollar, our FIAT CURRENCY. This is going to lead to runaway hyperinflation. Food, fuel and everything else will likely be 14-20x more expensive by this time next year. You think $4/gal gas is bad? Try $100/gal! A loaf of bread today costs about $3. Next October it will be $90 for that same loaf. The dollar is going to become worthless really fast.
So my advice is to hoard as much food as you can. Also hoard any metal money (coins). At some point the metal that makes the coin will be more valuable than it's face value.
Oh, and buy a safe and a gun and plenty of ammo.
Even with the bailout, the system is going to collapse. Be ready for it.

[avaistheone1]

9. Bailout Could Deepen Crisis, CBO Chief Says

Asset Sales May Lead to Write-Downs, Insolvencies, Orszag Tells Congress

The director of the Congressional Budget Office said yesterday that the proposed Wall Street bailout could actually worsen the current financial crisis.

CONTINUED AT-

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/09/24/AR2008092402799.html



Other experts also agree the CBO

[nadinbrzezinski]

12. Yes it could

nobody is saying it could not

Problem is that all I see round these parts is just complaining

That said, it could ALSO buy enough time to stabilize the markets and GET A CONGRESS that will pass the kind of PROGRESSIVE legislation that is needed.

Best case, it will return liquidity to the markets, and trust... (two of the drivers of the great depression) and give folks the breathing room necessary to get their thinking caps and the kind of legislation needed

Worst case... won't do a thing... and perhaps worsen it

The middle... will remain mostly status quo ante bill

In reality, like most in life, it will be somewhere in the middle.... it will do some good, but NOT exactly what they expect

THIS IS WHY this is the FIRST piece of legislation needed... see Great Depression and legislation... did not come out of Zeus head overnight... but the core of the critical legislation took two years.

[renie408]

21. This is the kind of stuff that drives me crazy. This expert says it will make things worse

and this expert says if we don't do it, it will make things worse.

I am not an economist, so I don't know who is right.

My gut feeling is that we need some form of financial package to shore up the credit industry. And then we need to regulate the living shit out of them.

[nadinbrzezinski]

33. Your gut feeling is right

[girl gone mad]

57. Regulation won't solve the problem.

In a sense, the derivatives market was created to exploit regulations.

What's needed is transparency.

[martymar64]

68. The next step, ban derivatives outright with severe criminal penalties

[girl gone mad]

74. agreed. n/t

[TahitiNut]

58. Yup. It's a last minute "smash and grab" as they let the economy fall into the shitter.

If they were SERIOUSLY wanting to 'rescue' the mortgage crisis, they'd do it FROM THE BOOTSTRAPS. The precedents are VERY clear ... and there's no excuse for the approach they pretend to take other than more stuffing for offshore turkeys.

[EFerrari]

11. Why is the alternative to do nothing?

[nadinbrzezinski]

14. Read the board lately? That is what many round these parts want

Incidentally that is the same attitude at FR

And I truly blame the leaders for NOT educating folks as to what is happening

[girl gone mad]

18. You keep saying that,

but I don't see anyone who advocates doing NOTHING.

[renie408]

23. Actually, I do see that a lot. I keep hearing marketeers on both sides

saying that we should let the market fix itself. That the current financial situation is a necessary correction.

[nadinbrzezinski]

27. 'xactly and it is down right scary when Rhodes and Michael Reagan

sound the same

[girl gone mad]

83. The far left and the far right both opposed the war, too.

Does that scare you?

:crazy:

[nadinbrzezinski]

126. The far right opposed the war?

amazing... given that the day the shooting started the SUPPORT for it was over 75%

I like facts... you might consider googling that

Now I will say this about the AMERICAN left... if a real lefty wiggled in front of them, they would not know it at all

In fact OUR left is to the RIGHT of CENTER of most political systems

That should scare you

[girl gone mad]

80. That still doesn't amount to doing nothing.

The market will have to correct itself, eventually. It always does.

If we hang on to the 700B, we can use it to help working Americans, without having to depend on the middle men who caused this crisis.

[EFerrari]

24. Bullshit. There are a number of thoughtful initiatives in the progressive caucus

for one thing.

When you try to trash your responders with freakerville, you only discredit yourself.

[nadinbrzezinski]

29. Ok... I will ask you a serous question and yes went through that plan as well

what are the chances that plan would be passed in the current congress? I mean look at the religious fanatics on the right? As is this might fail on Friday anyway...

Now be honest...

[depakid]

40. And they absolutely no chance of passing at the moment

though there's no reason why many of the ideas can't be implemented in the future.

[EFerrari]

43. Think about what you're proposing: we give over the money now

and hope that the implementors will do right by us?

:shrug:

[nadinbrzezinski]

59. Unlike many here who have been screaming about this... I have spent hours

readying the damn bills, as they evolved and have talked to people in the proper committees... their staffers... ok

I have been doing what a citizen needs to do

I am ASKING YOU TO DO THE SAME

And to realize this is NOT the end of the road

LISTEN TO OBAMA... TUNE IN... he might be able to splain this better to you than I obviously can

[EFerrari]

69. Save it. Obama has Wall Street backing and he is running for office.

And, btw, I don't need Daddy to think for me, thanks!

[nadinbrzezinski]

76. I don't need daddy to think for me either

but I have yet to see ANYBODY of the real loud ones over this parts spend the time necessary giving input

THis is not me doing it, or you... it needs to be en-masse

Now here is a FREE HINT

The revolution all wanted is here... how it develops DEPENDS ON YOU and ME.

[girl gone mad]

85. You insult and rant hysterically.

This Bill is a bad deal.

We don't need to rush it through in a panic.

[nadinbrzezinski]

90. So apart of posting what have you done?

I mean let it fall nihilistic bullshit will get us nowhere

And yes, IT IS BULLSHIT!!!!!!!!

[girl gone mad]

104. I've linked to alternative solutions..

to the bad bail out deal.

Went through TARP line by line to demonstrate the loopholes.

Tried to explain Credit Default Swaps and the Derivatives Market.

Tried to inject a bit of calm.

[nadinbrzezinski]

107. Have you contacted your congress crittters? Telling me what are your alternatives

which by the way I have sent AND posted. is not enough

And are you willing to get arrested and go to jail after taking to the streets. We ARE at that point

[TBF]

81. You're not the only one who can read. Some of us just have a different interpretation

of whether we should bail out this industry.

[martymar64]

71. Meanwhile, you can hope you don't starve

because once the bailout goes through, hyperinflation will start happening.
Start hoarding food, it'll be too expensive to afford before the year is out.

[nadinbrzezinski]

77. You do know how much the Fed has already spent in the markets?

It is in the trillions

I am sure you knew that

As to hyperinflation, yes it is possible... but if this goes into the great depression you guys seem to want... you won't be able to buy that food anyhow, mostly no money in circulation

[martymar64]

98. It's a Heads they win, Tails we lose situation

Our money is already about 40% of what was worth in 2000. By 2010, I'm betting a Dollar will be worth less than penny.
And there is nothing we the people will be able to do about it, no matter what happens with the bailout.

The US of A as a nation is doomed. I'm not joking about this either. Hoard food and buy a gun.

[nadinbrzezinski]

109. Then what are you doing in an activist site?

though I agree, to a point... this also has parallels to the fall of the USSR

[martymar64]

103. Who said I want a depression? Read what I said.

I'll make this as basic as possible. If the bailout goes through, we're fucked. If we do nothing, we're fucked.

I don't care what they do in washington, they'll do what they want and you and I have no effect over what actions they will or won't take. My only emphasis is on my own personal physical survival. I'm not going to let myself become one of those millions that are sure to die of starvation in the next couple of years.

Thus my advise which is very simple.

Hoard food and buy guns.

[EFerrari]

86. People are acting as if some of us aren't already struggling.

:shrug:

[nadinbrzezinski]

93. We already are, and IT WILL GET FAR WORST

before it gets better... NOBODY IS DENYING THAT

[EFerrari]

97. I can hear you just fine without the yelling. n/t

[gopbuster]

38. Maybe they don't want the people any more pissed off then they really are but...

you are right. They put us on a need to know basis at their own peril and ours. From what I understand we really are between a rock and a hard spot. The way I understand it, the mortgages can't be re-written (whether all or some I do not know) until who ever owns the bundle gives consent. Some of the bundles (pools) have multiple owners and they have to vote. So the gov has to buy some of them to get the market moving for private money to come in. They will also force disclosure of what is in the bundles for audit in order to value them.

The Gov may have to buy other troubled assets (derivatives) of some banks as well to support the institutions that are worth saving.

This is the way I understand it.

Your point in the OP is good regarding getting the majority in Congress to really make the changes we need and letting this serve as a mitigation effort..better than doing nothing for now.

[dkofos]

13. It's not a rescue IT'S A FUCKING BAILOUT.

This will not stop the inevitable crash.
This will only push the debt to over 70% of GDP.

Without new regulation (with teeth) this is nothing more than bush
giving the treasury to criminals.

[nadinbrzezinski]

16. Until YOU read the bill

you cannot tell... and I have yet to see you do that

Conveniently you forget the HOPE program expansion, for example

[dkofos]

35. POST IT I read the last one, it was SHIT. I expect this one to be even worse.

[nadinbrzezinski]

36. At this point go to the Banking committee and download it yourself

[dkofos]

41. That's what I expected from you.

Not even a link
freakin useless

[nadinbrzezinski]

53. Given that to you before,

throughout this whole mess

I have posted, it, posted links, posted extensive excerpts

[dkofos]

61. Thanks again for nothing.

http://banking.senate.gov/public/index.cfm?Fuseaction=Articles.Detail&Article_id=5b712d5b-8671-475f-a40d-8397cda2ae1e&Month=9&Year=2008

[nadinbrzezinski]

66. You welcome, see you CAN DO IT!

[dkofos]

89. YSB

[renie408]

28. I think we need to live to fight again another day....

Right now, Dems don't have ENOUGH sway to ram bills through without any Republican help. And even if we could, Bush could still veto. We need SOMETHING now to give us time to get to November. After November, we should have a commanding majority in both the House and the Senate...and the White House. At that point, maybe we can craft a New Deal 2.0.

[dkofos]

44. It will never happen. If they are going to do anything a NEW new Deal is needed NOW.

[Dr Fate]

50. I know- this reminds me of promises to investigate Bush once he leaves office.

I agree with you that it sounds like yet another stall.

[nadinbrzezinski]

73. You believe the New Deal came out of Zeus's head athena like?

NO... IT TOOK five years... of major legislation

The first two years were the most critical

[anigbrowl]

120. No bailouts for Greek megabankers!

[anigbrowl]

102. Something lik eht New Deal isn't produced overnight

It needs a firm electoral mandate and a lot of time. You are demanding all the problems in our economy get fixed in one fell swoop, which is absurd. Not. Gonna. Happen.

[Dr Fate]

113. But apparenty a $700 Billion bail out to millionares & billionares can be produced at top speed

Imagine that-Congress can work pretty quickly when Bush as well as their large donors say "jump."

[anigbrowl]

117. And? Do you have a point here?

You assume that because this bailout bill is complex but has been produced fairly rapidly, that we can just wrap the whole New Deal 2.0 up in a single bill. I'm supporting Obama (and have been since over a year ago) precisely because I think that's what the country needs and that he's the guy to make it happen. And I have no illusions that he's going to get it done during his first term either, or that the full benefits will mature much before I hit retirement age.

This is an emergency response to an emergency situation, it's limited in scope and it's not going to be last expense we have to bear in relation to this problem. I'm afraid I think your pleas for a new deal or suchlike to be enacted in the short term are just wildly unrealistic.

[Dr Fate]

121. I simply made a 100% factual observation that you didnt really refute.

It is often that Congress seems to act pretty quickly when the millionares & billionares tell them to get going. Am I wrong?

Congress could act just as quickly to write a bail out package that makes the top 1% pay for this mess- but we both know their excuse for why that wont happen: "that would take to long-we must act now. Maybe we will get to that later..."

[martymar64]

72. Start hoarding food and ammo

Seriously.

[Dr Fate]

25. The alternative isnt to "do nothing"- one alternative is to make the millionare & billionares pay up

That is a glaring ommission from this debate about the BAIL OUT.

I agree with Obama that we need to go ahead and "put out the fire"

What Obama failed to do for me is to explain why the millionare & billionare "arsonists" are not the ones who are going to foot the bill for it.

A BAIL OUT is fine, I guess- but why arent the arsonists the ones who are going to by taxed for this -ie asked to pay for this with their own spare, persoanl money & earnings?

Everyone including Obama seems to be glossing over this- the working poor & mainstreet doesnt think they should have to pay the fire department- they think the arsonists should.

Is that unreasonable?

Now what is our excuse for not forcing the arsonists to pay for the expenses they caused?

[renie408]

30. Maybe we can go after the arsonists on 1-21-09. n/t

[Dr Fate]

39. I'm not talking about "going after" anyone. I'm talking about who pays the bill right now.

Do the Republicans really want to see October ads telling the public that they refused to make the "arsonists" pay for the fires they started?

Of course they dont-I think one problem here is DLC chumps who agree 100% with the GOP that the working poor & middle class, not the top 1% should foot the bill for this BAIL OUT.

Dont re-frame my question to be about "going after" or "pointing fingers" at the arsonists.

The issue is: Who is in the best position, right now, to foot a bill for $700 Billion?

The answer? Millionares & billionares.

Mainstreet needs Obama to explain-or better yet, force mcCain to explain why millionares & billionares cant or wont pay for their fire right now.

[jflood1016]

31. You are right.

The people who created this problem should be punished, however it is imperative that we act to shore up the credit market quickly before this problem brings down the rest of the economy.

[Dr Fate]

48. I never said one single word about punishing after the fact. I'm talking about who pays the bill now

Is it "punishing" an arsonist to merely make him pay for burning down his own house,and to pay for the smoke damage caused to his neighbors houses? No- its just plain old fair play. In fact, it's letting him off easy- all he has to do is pay for what he broke.

I never said a word about after-the-fact punishing or investigations at this point- I'm talking about making the arsonists (who are not broke) pay the fire department instead of making mainstreet (who is broke) pay them.

I love him, but Obama fails to tell us why the neighbors & not the arsonist himslef should be the one who writes the check to the fire department.

[nadinbrzezinski]

32. Bill actually has a provision for that... allowing the FBI to investigate

crime

Just that this will take YEARS to do.

[Dr Fate]

42. I'm not talking about investigations after the fact. I'm talking about who pays the bill right now.

I think the millionare & billionare "arsonists" should pay 100% of this bill, right now.

They have plenty of money in their private funds to do so.

I would love to see Obama force McCain to explain why they shouldnt.

[nadinbrzezinski]

62. That didn't happen in the SNL, nor during the Great Depression

why do you think the religious free marketeers are pissed?

They don't want this since it proves all their pet theories wrong

[Dr Fate]

70. I still need somone to explain to me why Millionare & billionare bankers cant find $700 Billion.

But apparently the middle class & working poor taxpayers who did not start the fire can.

Are these millionare & billionare bankers down to $5 in their personal funds or somthing?

All I know is that no one, including Obama, is telling us why the Millionare & billionare arsonists are not getting 100% of the bill for the fire they started.

Why should the cash-strapped neighbors and not the arsonists pay for the expenses involved in putting out this fire? It's a pretty reasonable question- and it's alternative that most folks would see as reasonable:

"You burn it, we will help you put out the fire, sure, but you pay for the expenses incurred..."

If DEMS were framing it that way, you would see overwhelming support from everyone except the media, the GOP & their DLC chumps.

[nadinbrzezinski]

78. Depression era legislation included things like this

if it makes you feel better, the folks back then said the same exact words you are using... for the same exact reasons

[Dr Fate]

91. Great. Now tell me why bankers who are still billionares need $700 Billion dollars of my tax money.

Why are DEMS too frightened to even ask them to pay for the fire they started?

I've heard about the "fire" and how the servants need to help put it out before their shacks burn- but I havent heard about why the arsonists (who happen to remain multi-millionares & billionares) are not CURRENTLY being asked to pay the bill.

My guess is you are avoiding an answer b/c you know the "Blue Dogs" & DLC chumps will never let good DEMS go after the GOP on that one. Am I getting warmer?

The top 1% will not be asked to pay their fair share of this bill- and that is a major reason why so few regular joes and so few DEMS on the ground support it.

[EFerrari]

95. This is the DLC's send off for Bush. Their last office party.

So thoughtful of them. :loveya:

[nadinbrzezinski]

105. Ok two question

how much has the fed already sunk into the markets to try to get liquidity in a non targeted way? (Over two trillion... I lost count a while ago)

Did you know that? Some of us have been calling this crisis as coming for in a couple cases years...

That is the kind of spending used by the Hoover administration... it was not targeted and so far it hasn't

This is meant to STABILIZE the credit system... That is what this is for.

I know this is a hard concept to understand... it has problems... but it is a first step... not the end of the road

I will make a prediction right now... regardless of WHO wins the WH... the first two years will be spent in trying to do something to get this going

Now, I'd rather have Obama win... since if you get McHoover, you can guarantee a very severe crisis

If Obama wins you will get a LESS SEVERE crisis...

[Dr Fate]

119. No- I've asked you one single question 7 or 8 times w/o an answer. Answer mine 1st.

Here it is again-

"Why are the millionare & billionares (who are still millionares & billionares) not being asked to foot the bill for the "fire" they started?"

Nothing in your posts adresses that.

I agree that we want Obama to win- I'm not sure how making the arsonist pay for his own bills will stop that.

Seems like the average voter would actaully support that-a problem here is the moderate DEMS find it easier to agree with giving Bush what he wants(as usual) than to fight big money & stick up for the little guy.

[anigbrowl]

122. Which millionaires and billionaires? How do you propose to expropriate their assets?

Bill Gates has a lot of money, but he runs a software company. Should we go after him?

You seem to think that these people have huge vaults of cash in their basements. Mostly their wealth exists in the form equities and other assets.

[Dr Fate]

129. The same way they appropriated my money in these situations. One of 2 ways.

One way they appropriate my money is to tax me in higher proportions to my earnings than they tax those who are asking me to bail them out.

Here is another way my money has been taken-

When my family's small business went under- no bankers were asked to help me "put out my fire"- I had to dip into my personal accounts and sell my belongings and bail myself out. No bail out was even offered for me.

I'm assuming millionare & billionares could sell their mansions, yahcts, oil wells, rolex watches, -whatever- and come up with $700 billion. You know, like normal people have to do.

So let me get this straight- when a small business goes under- we have to sell everything- but when a Bank goes into debt- the bankers get to keep all their personal assets-or pay no extra taxes- b/c they know I will be forced to bail them out? Interesting.

I suspect that if congress was looking out for me, they could have written something in the bill that would require the bankers to come up with the money- probably by making sure the $700 billion came from taxing the top 1%.

Look- if you can convince me that I should be willing to pay for this, then I'm also equally convinced that millionares & billionares should be willing to pay for it.

[anigbrowl]

143. Which millionaires and billionaires?

I'm sorry your business went under, but if you organized it right you shouldn't have had it mixed up with your personal finances. It costs, what a few hundred to register a company?

You are over-simplifying this to the point of absurdity and not even referencing anything in the various bailout proposals with which to make your case. I understand you're angry and upset, but basically you're just ranting about 'they' without offering any specific proposals.

I was reading earlier today about the settlement packages for most of the London employees of Lehman brothers. They got about $2500 each, which I think is the minimum required by law for termination without notice (it's been a long time since I lived in the UK so I'm not totally sure).

Basically you want to see some wealthy people suffer to make you feel better. And if you read enough news, I'm sure you will. In the meantime, the idea that we should raise all the money by just grabbing the nearest rich-looking person and shaking them until some cash falls out is impractical.

[Dr Fate]

150. The ones who pay taxes-and should pay more. And no, I dont want to see wealthy people "suffer"

But as one option, I wouldnt mind seeing them pay their fair share- or the entire share of this bail out package.

Wealthy people suffer? Isnt that an oxymoron? They shouldnt have to sell ALL their mansions, maybe just one. What ever it takes to cover the taxes I would raise on them to pay for the bail out. Unlike me, they would still have healthcare and plenty of spending cash.

Dont try to make this about "class warfare" or revrnege against the rich on my part- I didnt burn anyone elses house down- I'm simply poiting out who is more able (and more culpable) as to paying the bill for cleaning up the arson.

And I have too offered specific proposals- my proposal is that the top 1% pay for the bail out- by specificaly taxing them for it. if they can figure out howe to tax me for the bill, surely congress can figure out how to tax billionares & millionares for it.

[nadinbrzezinski]

125. It's been addressed, but let me spell it for you

this is GOVERNMENT INTERVENTION... the same type of GOVERNMENT INTERVENTION done during the Great Depression for the SAME STRUCTURAL REASONS

This is the FIRST of MANY BILLS to come

And in fact, the EARLY bills were also opposed by our counterparts back then for the SAME REASONS

Hate for the fat cats

By the way... fat cats did go to the pokey during the great depression too... just NOT in 1932

[Dr Fate]

130. Your "bail out" government program should be funded by the top 1%, not the innocent bystanders.

You keep failing to tell me why no one will make them- or even mention that they should.

[nadinbrzezinski]

137. Those who have looked at this will tell you

that it should not cost us much in the end

Just as the mortgage system didn't end up cost us in the end during the great depression, in fact the feds made some money

The same way that the SnL got paid ten years later

Or the fact that Chrysler paid back

So in the medium to long term, you and I should NOT pay for this

That is history

Now will history go that way? Who knows? But that is history.

And that is all we have to go on

[Dr Fate]

140. Why take the chance- just make the top 1% pay for it right now- then there is no room for error.

You say it "should not cost us much in the end"- but why even take that chance- let the top 1% pay for it now- let it cost them everything and us nothing.


As far as some of "those who have looked at this" - I guess I'll just have to take the Neocon's & the DLC's word for it then. They have always been truthful to me and on the level in every other instance. LOL!! LOL!LOL!!!

Bottom line- if I could be convinced that innocent bystanders should have to pay for this, then its going to be even easier to convince me that the perps should pay their fair share, if not the entire bill.

[nadinbrzezinski]

144. Because we have taken those chances before

that is why

And because the top 1% will just take its marbles, and go behind their gates and let rome burn

Do you want that?

As is, INNOCENT bystanders are currently getting hurt already...

[Dr Fate]

148. So you are saying that millionares can just refuse to pay their taxes? Congress would allow that?

When did we try to make the top 1% pay this bail out before now? What "chances" are you talking about?

Are you saying that the top 1% will break the law and simply refuse to pay their taxes if we pass a law making their taxes pay for this bail out?

BULLSHIT.

In that case, they can go to jail and have thier assets impounded- you know-like they do to POOR PEOPLE and middle class people who do the same.

You sound like you are totally in favor of letting these crooks black mail us into bailing them out.

If billionares & millionares break the law, then congress can make sure they will go to court and then to jail- just like congress has made sure the same would happen to me. I'm quite certain we could get moderates & swing-voters to buy that one too.

Okay- now what is your next excuse for why we have to do whatever billionare crooks tell us to do?

[nadinbrzezinski]

152. BBRRRRR..... look we need a reform of the tax system

that will be coming

RIGHT NOW that was part of the early,,, as in very much ALPHA version of the bill, the 40 pager or so...

It was negotiated out since NO republican would vote for it

This is partly politics


But reality is that this is not an excuse

You are pissed, I get it, eat the rich... I said in the OP this is FAR FROM PERFECT... not sure how else to splain that.

IN MY IDEAL WORLD... Glass Sttegal should be in place LAST WEEK

In that ideal world I'd have the Warner Act FULLY BACK with Living wagers instead of minimum wage

In my ideal world I'd have the guys who did this taken before the judge tomorrow

And I would have the Mortgages financing board fully financed and ready to go, as well as the WPA

That is not reality

So... in the REAL world... where I choose to live... I realize that sometimes we don't get all we want at the time... and it takes TIME AND WORK

SO if living in the real world is an excuse

so be it, guilty as charged.

By the way... in your world view I guess it is good to have the little people who are already getting hurt so we don't do a thing to try to stop this and chiefly BUY TIME to get the bills, see above, that I want, and I know are needed

Here is a HUGE FREAKING CLUE... none of them will be enacted EVER if the people keep posting on blogs and DON'T call their guv'ment

And you think I am not angry? I am... just not letting emotion take over

I AM SURE ANOTHER EXCUSE IN YOUR EYES.

[Dr Fate]

155. We need to reform the bail out too. Right Now. Make the top 1% pay for it right now.

Voters would support that 100%-The real problem is the "Blue Dogs" and DLC chumps will side with Bush and the GOP on this before making the top 1% pay for this RIGHT NOW. It's simply easier to piss on me than it is for them to fight the GOP and big money. That, or they actually AGREE with Bush more than they agree with voters.

I think you are perfectly aware of that- you have all but said it.

We are forced to pass a bill more favorable to the billionares because we dont have enough DEMS who will fight the Republcians or big money.

Hopefully we will have more Liberals and fewer DLC chumps in congress after '08 and this will change.

Most voters would support a proposal more in line with my thinking - the GOP & their DLC chumps would not, will not, will never.

Admit it- this isnt about what voters would prefer- this is about what the GOP and their DLC chumps are going to force us to do.

[nadinbrzezinski]

157. The american people wanted a war too

they were wrong too.

It seems that I am on the 180 of where popular sentiment is in these critical issues every time... or at least since 2000 and in time the facts on the ground prove me right.

And your proposal will not pass right now... hell, even with the sweetener in it the house republicans will probably reject this on Friday... on ideology purely, since this is guv'ment intervention and St Reagan would never allow that..

From a POV of politics that MIGHT be good... for the heath of the banking system and the future of the same little people you are advocating for, it is not

[Dr Fate]

159. And the same DLC type chumps made sure they got it too-after feeding them lies & fake info.

It just happens that most people dont believe the similar DLC/GOP lies this time.

The point I was making is that in the past, the DLC types used "this is what the voters want-we have no choice but to oppose our base" when they needed cover for supporting Bush or giving him what he wanted.

This time, the voters across party lines do NOT want it, yet congress still sides with a proposal that is closer to what Bush wants than what voters want.

Of course my proposal wouldnt pass right now- the DLC chumps would laugh at it with their GOP buddies. Easier to stick the bill to me than to fight for me-the past 8 years have certainly taught me that one.

What voters really want never matters- if they happened to be convinced with fake info into wanting something (like the war), then that is merely less work for congress on the propaganda front.

This time they were not convinced, yet congress doesnt not care a flip.

[nadinbrzezinski]

162. Funny since I have been opposed to the DLC from word go

perhaps you'd be happier with that the true supply siders want as a solution

Here is what they want and already are pushing for

Currency controls

Privatization of all

SS privatization, or did you miss McCain on this? That was pure IMF \ DLC bullshit.

End of ALL subsidies, including the AG subsidies, read end of cheap food policy for the US.

That is on top of their list

So you'd prefer that or getting SOME TIME so all the New Deal legislation I have been advocating for with the US Congress and Senate to be applied?

I'm not the enemy... now if you think I am, then we part company and perhaps you should just put me on ignore.

I've just followed who's on what side... of this... and I will repeat this once again, try to comprehend this... THIS BILL IS FAR FROM IDEAL, but under the CURRENT congress I will not get what I want... which I suspect is even to the left of you... very much so. And what is even more scary is that some of the staffers I have talked to over the course of the last ten days or so have NO CLUE about that depression era legislation which I want to use as a SCAFFOLD to build anew... I guess that is a DLC point of view huh? I mean they are in favor of strong unions :sarcasm: and national health care, :sarcasm: and a WPA :sarcasm:

I see this as BUYING TIME... nothing else and nothing less... like when you give a trauma patient a transfusion... just that this is targeted, instead of the transfusions we have been giving to the system over the last year or so. They are in the order of trillions now... read this again TRILLIONS

I also recognize that this is NOT THE END

Can you read? Can you comprehend?

But you are right... I am all for disaster capitalism :sarcasm: and why I have advocated with Members of Congress AGAINST precisely THAT.

As I said, I choose to live in reality...

I also know this is the revolution many of you wanted... but you will waste the historic opportunity

[Dr Fate]

164. I generally assume that the DLC & Bluedogs lead the charge when DEMS give Bush what he wants.

I'd say it's a pretty safe assumption.

In any event, I stand by every charge I've made against the DLC or conservative DEMS in this thread.

If we cant get a more equitable bail-out passed or one that voters prefer- it has everything to do with DEMS being more willing to fight thier own base (and in this case, many middle-class Republican voters) than fighing the GOP or big business.

But I'm happy that you oppose those kinds of DEMS from time to time.

In any event, I'm all for passing some sort of bailout- and I dont want the system to fail- I just want to see DEMS demanding that the right people pay the bill.

I realize that part of the pro-bail-out argument is to paint dissenters as Marxists, just wanting everything to collpapse- but I never said that.

The main difference b/t you & me is you want to make excuses for why billionares & millionares shouldnt be complelled to pay this "arson" bill RIGHT NOW- while I'm coming up with arguments against those excuses.

[nadinbrzezinski]

166. your excuses are political reality AT THE PRESENT TIME

now I guess it is time for me to use the ignore feature

If you are going to make charges such as I am a blue dog... then I am done

[Dr Fate]

167. I never said you were a Blue Dog- I said Bluedogs are among those leading this scam.

As far as leading the DEMS to agree with Bush, that.

I just assumed you were buying their BS, not that you were a dues paying member or something.

And what excuses did I make for anyone? I only argued against your excuses.

Yes- it is fine with me if you want to bail out of this argument now...

I imagine it's easier to ignore than refute my reasons for why the DEMS are agreeing with Bush more than voters.

[nadinbrzezinski]

168. It does not matter what words are used

your mind is made up

Have a good day

[Dr Fate]

169. And your mind is clearly made up too- is that such a bad thing?

I assume that most debates are for the audience, not for the debators.

I hope you have a great day as well- I truly enjoyed & learned from the exchange.

[anigbrowl]

106. This is ridiculous. You're saying we can't put out the fire until we settle all the billing first

If your property is on fire, you don't call the insurance assessors and have a long conversation about liability. You call the FD and attempt to extinguish the fire. THEN you have a long conversation with insurance assessors, police and whoever else needs to be involved to investigate and assign responsibility.

[Dr Fate]

128. I thought we have already settled the bill- innocent tax payers will pay most of it.

I thought the billing was already settled- the innocent tax payers will indeed pony up the dough.

Seems like the bill could have been settled just a quickly, except in a way that innocent voters & tax payers would see as fair.

Of course, no one even mentioned that as an option- we were told we had to agree to pay the bill or else our houses would burn down.

[anigbrowl]

147. I am not continuing this conversation

We have not settled the bill, and the $700 billion is proposed as an emergency measure, for which there will have to be an accounting later - a comprehensive accounting of how we got into this mess and who is responsible.

You want to have the arson trial before we turn on the water for the hoses, and persist in describing this as a handout from poor people to Wall street when it is nothing of the sort. There is no point in continuing because you don't want to learn anything or discuss specifics, just vent. Fine, vent on someone else.

[Dr Fate]

158. I dont want to have an arson trial at all- I want the top 1% arsonists to pay for the fire damage.

I dont really care if they ever have an investigation, I just know who is capable & more culpable when it comes to paying this bill...

I've noticed that a lot of the pro bail out people "bail out" of these debates as soon as we start asking why the millionares & billionares cant pay their fair share of the bill.

We are told that "you dont know how things work" once we figure out that DEMS have no intention of making theses bankers pay their fair share. I think the real problem you have is that we actually have figured out how things work.

I will insist on decribing this as a hand out to the rich until I see them selling off their belongings to pay their business's debt or I see their taxes raised to pay for the bail out. This is what happens when regular people's business's go sour. They get no "bail out" or hand out.

If millionares & billionares see no consequences or no expenses, then yes, it is indeed a hand out to them. They get to keep money they would have otherwise lost.

I dont blame you for bailing out- as a DEM, I wouldnt want to be caught in a position of having to argue in favor of trickle down economics either.

[Greyhound]

37. OK, who's got a link to this current bill?

I had the last failure and it was even worse than reported, not I can't find the new one. 3000 articles talking about it, but no text, or link to it.

[jflood1016]

49. Here is the bill

http://banking.senate.gov/public/_files/latestversionAYO08C32_xml.pdf

[Greyhound]

84. Thank you. n/t

[Greyhound]

79. Never mind, found one and I'm only up to page 10 and the travesty continues.

The provisions for the new SoT powers makes everything else just so much bullshit that he can ignore of over-ride because he says so. The Congress is asked to vote that their own powers are subordinate to the decisions of a political appointee.

Here's the bill I've got that the LA Times identifies as http://www.latimes.com/news/printedition/front/la-senate_economic_recovery_package-pdf,0,3699234.acrobat">"the Senate version of the bailout bill"

It does say that he cannot pay more than full price for the crapola, I'm wowed.

He can pay the full principle and interest that it would have generated had the loan performed (Sec. 102 para. 3), so not only will we take that pile of shit off your hands we'll give you the profits on it as well.

The "Oversight Board" consists of the Chairman of the Board of Governors of the Federal Reserve System; the Secretary; the Director of the Federal Housing Finance Agency; the Chairman of the Securities Exchange Commission; the Secretary of Housing and Urban Development. Not one person that is not from the executive or Fed.

It's 451 pages long and I've seen enough. It sucks slightly less, but has insufficient oversight and further concentrates power to the executive branch.

[barbtries]

47. where did you go to read it?

please, a link?

[nadinbrzezinski]

52. Here you go

http://banking.senate.gov/public/

There are three versions, the full bill, and two executive summaries

[4 t 4]

64. Obama just said it on CNN (the new fox)

that even if we do this we're still going to have major problems.

[nadinbrzezinski]

67. Read what I wrote in the OP

we will... it is just how SEVERE the problems will be

[blindpig]

101. How long, Lord, how long?

[Geek_Girl]

131. DeFazio's bill is a better alternative than this piece of crap being shoved down our throats

nt

[nadinbrzezinski]

138. Does he have the votes?

thank you

(And that bill should be dug out in the next congress by the way.. and this is NOT the last word on this crisis either)

[Dr Fate]

141. How many DEMS , if any would deny him such votes? Just curious. n/t

n/t

[nadinbrzezinski]

145. Quite a few...

why I asked, does he have the votes?

And assume it passed the house... I guarantee you it will not go through the senate

[Dr Fate]

153. Just as I thought. So the usual DEMS favor the one Bush likes better then.

Business as usual.

[nadinbrzezinski]

156. Not quite, not that people are getting this

over the next 24 months we will have REVOLUTIONARY changes.

how they happen... depends on you and me

Yes, the revolution many of you wanted is here... and this is a historic opportunity

I fear it will be wasted

[Dr Fate]

160. We agree on that point, in a vacuum. n/t

n/t

[Geek_Girl]

149. If dems had a back bone they'd vote against this bill and support DeFazio's

Unfortunately that's not the case. Not matter what you or I say or think matters. We are obviously not in charge and "we the people" don't matter.

I'm very disappointed in my party and I won't say the obvious because I do not want to get tomb-stoned.

[B Calm]

151. I would much rather they spend 700 billion rebuilding the infrastructure

of the USA. It would provide thousands of high paying jobs.

[nadinbrzezinski]

154. That is called the WPA... start lobbying for it, because it will be needed

this is just the first of many bills that will come... in the next 24 months or so

Hell, the first two years of the next administration will be spent lessening the crisis

[Hidden Stillness]

161. Some Questions--From Total Confusion and Opposition

I totally fail to understand how the American people being stuck with debts on bad, failing, worthless speculations, has any relation at all to whether there will be a recession (there is already) or depression. I have heard that this will bail out certain individual corporations (related to Paulson, surprise!), and their frenzy of speculation that crashed, that the American people by way of taxes will take on this debt, which will never turn any kind of a profit, (and they condescendingly hype it as us being "investors" now, too), while the threat to homeowners and foreclosure, unemployment, credit card debt, etc., all untouched (isn't that where the recession is?), and there are no bills involving the crime and corruption that caused the consolidation, insider trading and fake profit/loss/rating listings, and crash. Everything is still deregulated; this will solve what?

We bailed out the junk bond criminals and savings-and loans of the 1980s, we have bailed out several speculative investors and brokers already during this thing, and it has obviously affected nothing, because here we are. A little quick history that has been showing up on some of these DU threads lately, mentions that FDR did not save the country and end the Depression by bailing out banks--Hoover did it, and it failed, as it always does. Roosevelt implemented a whole series of new laws and regulations, "bank holidays," closing them for days at a time, so people could not have runs on them, withdrawing all their savings and making the bank collapse that way, and bought and reworked the terms of the home and farm debt of the American people themselves, saving them directly, etc. This thing here pays the debts of one particular crime spree--how does this get at the actual recession, which involves the lowered standard of living of the American people more than anything?

How will this be run, when the very thing you are dealing with are lying criminals who have invented an entire world of fake accounting procedures and appearances? I was just listening to a great and very complicated speech on the floor of the Senate on Sept. 30th by Sen. Byron Dorgan, on some of the scams uncovered concerning these investment banks, hedge-funds, etc. They split up mortgages, loans, etc., sell them off, others split them up, package them with unrelated things--some good, some worthless--sell them, route it through the tax/profit/business dealings shelters of the Cayman Islands, etc., list things as New York City (this particular scam Dorgan was describing) or other areas, wherever the most deregulated areas are, etc. It is absolute insanity--how do you even know what is what? Do you know what a "credit default swap" is, and does it have any actual purpose or value? This is an industry that is so deregulated to pyramid scheme in-bred collusion, that it actually has no value at all. Why are they not being punished instead, the way they used to do? These people bid up the price of oil, so they can take it off the market, as if it is the new "money" hoarded. What is this bill going to accomplish?

[Dr Fate]

163. Gumming up the works with those "questions" again, I see. FIRE! FIRE! FIRE!

;)

I wish I knew how to answer them in way that makes the bail out seem right & equitable.

[nadinbrzezinski]

165. Let me try to address this

first this is not exactly a 1931 hoover bailout... that is essentially what the Feds have been doing over the last year or so.. so far it's trillions

Over two to be exact

This is far from perfect, but it does have limited help for homeowners, using the HOPE program which was expanded. (If I were in charge, which I am not... I'd have the depression era organization taking care of this by the way.. .and that should come in the future) Why I have been calling and writing and faxing urging them to look at that era's legislation as a scaffold

It also has accountability and it is targeted at getting some of the bad debt out so they can start loaning again and trusting each other, two of the drivers of the great depression

As to the SnL, fair question... we recouped the money over the long term.... just like we did from buying the houses during the great depression... and we, I mean as the taxpayer

Now as I have told others, this is far from perfect, but this is what they could get under the current congress.

If it works the way it is designed, it will LESSEN the crisis... not prevent it. If it does not... well it is just more money thrown in, and I expect it to have some success, long enough for elections to happen and get political bodies that will be far more inclined to vote for more progressive legislation.

Now I want to see the depression era legislation used as the scaffolding for the regulations we need, as well as the rest of the system... but for that to happen the pepple need to get involved... and it goes beyond posting on a blog. People need to contact congress critters AND be ready to take to the streets.

The new deal did not just happen... it happened because there was pressure all over the place... from all sides;

[PVnRT]

170. I am not pleased about the tax cuts in the Senate bill

Nor that they couldn't wait for the House to put together a new one. I think the Constitutionality of this is questionable at best.

I agree with getting something done; my fear is that those tax cuts will stick around.

[Dr Fate]

171. I make $30K per year. Surely our good DEMS included a nice big tax cut for me too- right?

One in proportion to the new cuts provided for others right?

DEMS fought for me on that one-right?

Oh -pretty please- say it's so- is it?

Details?

Struggling people likely to vote DEM got some tax cuts too- right?

[nadinbrzezinski]

172. Agreed, they added lard

that is why I wrote this is far from perfect... far from perfect

[Dr Fate]

173. If I'm not on your ignore- can you tell me if I'm getting a nice tax cut? I make $30K per year.

Note that my bills are up to $4000 per month in rent, bills & student loan debts.

Surely our good DEMS fought for tax cuts for middle class folks like me too-right?

Will I be getting a tax cut in proportion to what everyone else got in this bill, or is my premeptive sarcasm justified?

Will I get to keep a more substantial portion of my check according to this new bill- or is this just the usal tax cuts DEMS have allowed for the past 8 years?

In other words-did the congress give me the same type of tax cut or relief that they might have given a millionare banker?

[nadinbrzezinski]

175. I won't bother answering, period

:banghead:

And you can go read the bill yourself, might be a good thing

[Dr Fate]

176. I'll take that as a big fat "No- you get nothing - shut up and support this or else FIRE FIRE FIRE!"

Just as I suspectecd- no tax relief for the regular Joes.

I thought you said DEMS need to fight for tax reform- Oh- you meant some other time in the vague future.

Like most voters, I wont be reading this bill.

However, I will be reading what Liberals who have track records of giving me factual information (as opposed to liars in the media & congress) have to say about it.

No "lard" for the Rabble, eh?

[TBF]

178. The only thing this bill is about is portfolios. Evidently yours isn't

big enough to matter Dr. ;)

They can shove their "depression books". I did enough reading in grad school. And I know exactly what they are up to with this bill because I can read as well as they can.

No bailouts for billionaires, period.

[Dr Fate]

179. Sad when I can predict that DEMS will fight for Bush voters harder than they will for me.

n/t

[varelse]

180. No "lard" for the Rabble, eh?

Nope, they can't afford lubricant, I'm afraid.