Oldest 'Christ' Reference Found in Egypt-Describes Christ As 'Magician'

[kpete]

Earliest reference describes Christ as 'magician'
Bowl dated between late 2nd century B.C. and the early 1st century A.D.
Christoph Gerigk / Franck Goddio/ Hilti Foundation



A bowl, dating to between the late 2nd century B.C. and the early 1st century A.D., is engraved with what may be the world's first known reference to Christ. The engraving reads, "DIA CHRSTOU O GOISTAIS," which has been interpreted to mean either, "by Christ the magician" or, "the magician by Christ."

By Jennifer Viegas
updated 7:23 a.m. PT, Wed., Oct. 1, 2008

A team of scientists led by renowned French marine archaeologist Franck Goddio recently announced that they have found a bowl, dating to between the late 2nd century B.C. and the early 1st century A.D., that is engraved with what they believe could be the world's first known reference to Christ.

If the word "Christ" refers to the Biblical Jesus Christ, as is speculated, then the discovery may provide evidence that Christianity and paganism at times intertwined in the ancient world.

The full engraving on the bowl reads, "DIA CHRSTOU O GOISTAIS," which has been interpreted by the excavation team to mean either, "by Christ the magician" or, "the magician by Christ."

more at:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26972493/?GT1=43001

[Nia Zuri]

1. Comemorative coffee mug?

[Lucinda]

22. Or a "you too can turn water into wine!" special edition?

Do ya think that Oxy Clean guys' family traces back to Judea?

[hvn_nbr_2]

52. If it's not microwave-safe, I don't want it. nt

[roguevalley]

58. well, this is pretty wonderful. Paul was through there, spreading his

bastardization of the Messianic movement and this is a memento of his efforts. Interesting.

[TornadoTN]

119. You made probably the most important point in this thread

Paul and his bastardized version of the gospels and Christ were indeed in that region at some point according to many authoritative scholars.

[roguevalley]

126. If you read the acts and his letters, he spends a lot of time saying

how lying in the service of his message to the Gentiles is good and he 'isn't lying', isn't a 'liar'. James and the Messianic Church in Jerusalem carried Jesus' message. Paul never met him and in his writings even discounts the real Jesus as not important. Sad man, our Paul.

[Th1onein]

65. I just ruined my keyboard!

I can't believe you said that! LOL

[wickerwoman]

67. "I died on the plains of Golgotha and all I got was this lousy mug."

[WCGreen]

101. Now that was funny...

[obreaslan]

74. "Worlds Best Savior"

:)

[notadmblnd]

108. They did say he was a carpenter.

But somehow, I always imagined him building cabinets.:shrug:

[roguevalley]

129. actually that's a mistranslation. he was a stone mason and day

laborer. techton (sp?) was what was mistranslated.

[ThePowerofWill]

138. Not really.

The the original jewish or greek {i forget which} the term meant someone who worked with their hands, or laborer.

Funny thing i find is that all the fundies say the King James bible is the only true word of god. It is however filled with mistranslations.

[roguevalley]

142. I know. there are books out there that point them out. I think Spong

wrote a good one.

[LeftHander]

114. hahaha ancient IT project team member...nt

[Franzia]

124. Yeah, they probably got it from Stuckey's.

[Stump]

Pretty interesting

Maybe he did perform miracles...

[Lucian]

8. I'm wondering if he did now.

I used to believe Jesus was nothing more than a mere man, but if this work is real, then maybe he did do something...supernatural.

:shrug:

[tom_paine]

12. Or maybe he was just a very good and very clever magician playing to a VERY ignorant audience.

Think about it. Faith aside and given all of human history, which is more likely?

And consider how simply dirt-ignorant of the world people were from about 1400 AD on back (in many ways, it could be 1900 AD and back, for much science), even the "civilized" parts.

People had little to no understanding of anatomy, chemistry, physics and perhaps more important psychology or manipulation/propaganda. The were ignorant in the extreme and must have been VERY easy to fool, considering how easily people can be fooled today, even with all this accrued education.

Witness the last 8 years under Bushler.

So perhaps Jesus was just a very VERY good magician and in Paul he had his indefatigable Karl Rove to turn him into legend and then God.

Perhaps. It is all idle speculation and apologies to anyone to whom this offends.

As a Jew, I often thought Moses may well have been the Pat Robertson of his Day but maybe he was the David Copperfield.

[Lucian]

17. Touche.

[tom_paine]

20. I believe I saw a special on the History Channel, or at least the ads for it,

that suggested that most religious "miracles" were actually complex devices. The ones they showed were not unlike the whacky coyote contraptions, with gears and levers and waterwheels for power.

As I said, I have a very dim memory of this, so I am guessing I only saw the ads, not the show. I am also guessing that examination of Christian or other contemporary religions like Islam and Judiasm,were not put under the microscope. It was "ancient religions" so I am guessing it was Zorastrians, Greek- and Roman-Gods, an others like that.

But somehow, I am guessing that, until 1500 or so, the same applied to ALL religions, to some degree or another. "Miracles" made of clockwork, so to speak, and presented to an audience with almost no education and understanding of the larger world.

More idle speculation, but it makes perfect sense to me. From the past, we can get a general sense of the ternds of the future. From looking at contemporary people, and for the most part we are all mostly unchanged in 10,000 years except for access to cheap energy and all the ancillary benefits that entails, we can see how the past must have been. If we take off the "people were nobler in those days" blinders - in some ways they were and in many they weren't - we can see how some of it must have been.

NOTE: I will always call the Founding Fathers, for all their faults flaws and human frailties, the slightest exception to that rule. Only slight because they occupied the unique spot at the pinnacle of the evolution, as it were, of Enlightenment Ideals, and they really did seem to at least partially believe in the power of we commoners as repository of power and withthe right of self-determination.

And Washington refused the crown when offered. No human has done that since, I believe. And even one of the few who did such, Caesar "refused" the crown like Bush would, for show only, while accruing all the powers of a King to himself and his descendants.

So I call them just the tiniest bit exceptional, though they were as messed up as anyone else in their personal lives. Look at Franklin, brothel owner, and son-disowner. Or Jefferson, serial slave sexual abuser.

[Hestia]

109. I disagree somewhat with what you are saying...

History Int'l has series about Ancient Inventions - there were vending machines before the time of Christ, so they did have that knowledge. I must admit though Judea was an outpost and most likely were more unschooled than Rome, but boys did attend Temple Schools, so they weren't totally ignorant.

Plus you cannot apply the ignorance to ALL the religions/spiritual paths at that time. Look at Egypt - the temple priests tracked the movement of the stars for over 3,000 years. And look at their copious amounts of writing. At the dig at Giza even the common people wrote notes to each other, there is a mound of shards of these 'posties'.

It has been said that those who follow Pagan paths are 90% readers, where as the followers of the Big 3 aren't. Could that same level apply then, as now?

There is 30,000 years of history that has been supressed, with only glimmers of it picked at from the edges. It would be nice to see more Ancient History shows that are Goddess Centric, rather trying to cram Jesus into every square inch of history, whether it applies or not.

[On the Road]

18. People are Still Being Canonized as Catholic Saints

In order to do that, it must be proven to the church's satisfaction that the candidate has performed a miracle.

So while I agree with your opinion of how credulous the ancients were, maybe it's not as distant as it seems.

[tom_paine]

24. Oh, it's VERY close these days. Not distant at all.

If I sniff the wind some mornings, I can smell the witch burnings a quarter of a mllenia hence, perhaps sooner.

As I said, other than our access to cheap energy and all that it entails, lesiure time for contemplation, abolishment of slavery (which NEVER happens without abundant cheap energy...NEVER), full bellies and a hundred other benefits, human beings are pretty much unchanged for at least 10,000 years, and probably more. (ask an evolutionary biologist...I'm not one)

The Bushies are stimulating it, growing it for their own dark purposes. On only has to look out the the Freeper hordes, crazy and committed as any Nazi Brownshirt, only less violent and not overtly racist (he hides behind codewords), to see how successful they have been in spreading their feces over the Dark Side of the Human Soul of America in how it has grown and how it can now never die because it has passed some critical threshold I cannot descriobe or explain.

Remember, Hitler STILL has followers, and that is after near-universal-contempt and 70 years of discreditation, to say the least.

[Rancid Crabtree]

26. heard our ear lobes are getting bigger

and I'm a slightly more advanced model of evolution in progress and that's only been in the last 50 years...but this ear lobes thing...have you seen Nancy's ears! Probably those big chunks of metal she had hanging there, and well, she is older and we tend to sag as we age...also heard that eventually we'll lose our small toes...but I was reading some of your earlier posts and Jesus was too small for a magician, he was able to slip away too easily into the crowds that followed him, so he was small and a very small Vietnamese man made this point to me years ago...but he did touch a leper, a kind of evolution when you consider back in the day they used to throw rocks at lepers...and that's probably another argument for humans changing and we can hope...ignore me, I'm tired and still bewildered by $700 billion in late trailer payments.

[Dangerously Amused]

50. Well, these days giving birth after a difficult pregnancy can make you a saint.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gianna_Beretta_Molla

JP II really lowered the "miracle" bar, IMO.

[tom_paine]

96. The rise of science has really left 'em scraping the bottom of the barrel for their stagecraft

Science has lifted the curtain on almost all of it.

Thus, there aren't many thing s they can claim of as a miracle anymore without being laughed at...just laughed at.

Miraculous you call it, babe
you ain't seen nothing yet.
We got Pepsi in the Andes
we got McDonald's in Tibet.

Yosemite has been turn into a golf course...for the Japs
And the Dead Sea is alive with rap
Between the Tigris and Euphrates, there a leisure center there
they've got all kind of sports, they've got bermuda shorts.

It's a miracle...
--Roger Waters on the CD "Amused to Death"

Is there anything more to really say beyond Roger's eloquently biting irony?

[mitchum]

30. Christopher Marlowe and I would agree with you...

"Moses was but a juggler"

[juno jones]

57. Interesting. There is a 'Juggler' card in the tarot.

Also known as the 'Magician'.

[starroute]

59. A lot of these guys were obviously shamans

There's no telling at this point whether Moses or Jesus were real historical figures or not -- but even if they were entirely mythic, they were clearly based on real people who were what we would now call shamans.

Both Moses and Jesus went out into the desert, saw visions, underwent tests, and returned with the power to perform magic. For example, Moses engaged in a magicians dual with pharaoh's magicians -- where they all turned their staffs into snakes and his staff ate their staffs.

If that ever really happened, it was no doubt some sort of illusion or slight of hand. But that's what actual shamans do -- perhaps combined with some degree of genuine psychic abilities -- to establish their authority over the populace. And they do it without needing machines or gimmicks -- they just use the normal ability of the human mind to see things that aren't really there given the right suggestions. (See, for example, http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2006/11/061120130533.htm)

Jesus was similarly known for what could only be called magic tricks, like turning water into wine. There were a lot of sorcerers, soothsayers, and whatnot in the Roman Empire, and Christians spent the first several centuries trying to explain why Jesus wasn't just another one of the same, even though he performed many of the same illusions.

[snooper2]

130. Best post in Thread Award!

:hi:

[H2O Man]

66. It is important

to examine what the word means, and recognize that what we think of today may be very different than what it meant 2000 years ago. The root comes from "magic" (of course!), from the Middle English word "magik"; it can be traced to the a Greek word that is actually of Iranian (Persian) origin. It implied someone with power over natural forces, which is distinct from today's implied meaning of one with power over supernatural forces.

[shadowknows69]

87. Ah but supernatural forces are still natural forces in the eyes of a magician

there is no "supernatural", just aspects of nature we don't understand yet. Whether people can control it or not through force of will is open to debate.

[Hestia]

110. the actual interpretation should be "annointed" Christos, not Jesus Christ

rather sad that they are once again cramming Jesus into history, when the word is so much bigger and larger than that.

[me b zola]

111. Yes.

And most religions speak to the same/similar metaphysical practices, experiences. Meditation, control of the mind, control of the breath. These principles and practices are taught among all religions that I am aware of.

"Out of one thousand, one seeks me. Out of one thousand who seek me, one finds me".

[kestrel91316]

2. Oh, dear. The fundies are gonna have some issues with this, lol.

[RebelOne]

73. Oh, believe me, they do. Check out the link to RaptureReady.

www.rr-bb.com/showthread.php?t=62114

[OnyxCollie]

106. There's an ad for Chris Angel Mind Freak at the bottom of that page. Ha ha. nt

[TornadoTN]

120. Those people scare and amuse me

I have never seen a group of people who are so brainwashed that they have some kind of answer or solution to every bit of factual information that is thrown at them.

Tell them the sky is blue and they'll say, "Satan wants us to think the sky is blue, but its really pink, like the savior tells all of us true believers to believe"

[snooper2]

131. Can you post some of the comments for me?

They don't like me over there :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:


You have been banned for the following reason:
Troll

Date the ban will be lifted: Never

[whosinpower]

3. So that is what the Holy Grail looks like!

wow.

[file83]

56. ...

:rofl:

[OnyxCollie]

107. He chose... poorly.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

4. That's Awesome!

I love stuff like this.

[Tallison]

5. My five year old could do that

:P

[Razoor]

6. interesting

interesting. wonder if it could be misinterperated?

[garlicmilkshake]

7. Well, turning water into wine is a pretty good trick. (Of course I do the opposite regularly)

:D

[newtothegame]

45. :)

That's the best reply I've seen.

[supernova]

9. I love stories like this. Thanks!

:-)

[billyoc]

10. Earliest schism demands Christ be called "illusionist".

[beac]

75. Maybe when he comes back Jesus can help this man

get back into Magicians' Alliance.

[Dorian Gray]

89. Nah...

it's his Final Countdown!

[beac]

93. Oh noes!

Final Countdown = Palin-induced Apocalypse = I don't live to see the 'Arrested Development' flick!

(Unless they show it as the in-Rapture movie, of course. ;) )

[Ignis]

137. I know he really wants to get into that Poof!

:rofl:

[PetrusMonsFormicarum]

11. Well yeah . . .

I mean, the guy was either an extraterrestrial or a time traveler. All that loaves and fishes bullplop was just smoke and mirrors.

Just ask either of these guys:

[TexasObserver]

13. Family Guy has video of it

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vmaGULNRouc

[Schema Thing]

14. Except that it probably isn't mentioning christ at all

[villager]

15. He's a trickster god, like all the good ones: Coyote, Elijah, etc...!

;-)

[madrchsod]

16. i have one just like that....

really this proves nothing....

[SpiralHawk]

19. Christians have an honest heritage of Magic

And yet the fundamentalists among them condemn magic, turning their hypocritical backs on this, as they turn inside out every other thing Christ lived out...

Ptooey on hypocritical pretend christians.

[MorningGlow]

34. What else is the transubstantiation, after all?

Christians used to know magic. They lost it somewhere along the way. That's why I put very little stock in their prayer--they don't know the fundamentals required to manifest anything at this point. (Fevered beta-brain-wave begging and bargaining doth not a manifestation make.)

[Hestia]

112. You know where they got their magic from? They raided villages,

kidnapped the priest/esses, made them show their abilities and texts, kill them and the villagers. There is a whole history of murders like this.

[MorningGlow]

117. You mean the Burning Times?

Funny how they confiscated all the knowledge and then wiped it out, no?

But I was talking about the era before the Church became a political entity--the decades immediately after Jesus, with the Gnostics, when Paul was considered a crackpot instead of the primary voice of the religion. Those folks knew how to meditate and manifest--before the belief system got corrupted.

[Zhade]

39. How can you have an honest heritage of something that doesn't exist?

NT!

[KittyWampus]

21. a Magus in the esoteric tradition is very different than one who practices legerdemain

it's more like saying that the Christ is an advanced yogi.

[mitchum]

29. self delete: responded to wrong post

sorry :)

[Fire Walk With Me]

32. Stories out of India have told of equivalent powers.

No one ever documents such things. Excepting some scientific study of meditation itself, revealing vast changes in brainwave activity and patterns..and the supression of the flinch reflex, and other items.

Christ is said to have studied in the East for a time. And somewhere in the Bible, he says "all that I have shown you, you can do as well", or similar.

[MorningGlow]

35. Precisely

And isn't there the belief that during his "lost years" he was learning higher forms of meditation and magick in India and/or Egypt?

[TornadoTN]

122. Preposterous! Christ was always there in Israel, are you a heathen blasphemer!

Of course, I was being sarcastic.

According to the fundamentalists, that's pretty much all he ever did. He was born and then just disappeared for a while and then came back. They never account for what he was doing in his formative years and the time leading up to his adult appearance in the New Testament.

I've tried to suggest that Christ may have studied or visited far Eastern practices or other theories throughout the world and the response I get is "Why would the son of God have to study!?".

I just don't get organized religion at all. They bastardize a collection of stories about a mans life who by most accounts was a decent and caring individual, and whose lessons and teachings should inspire the best in people. Thanks to Paul and his clever "Rovian" spinning of the teachings, the world gets a brain dead cult in its wake.

[MorningGlow]

125. LOL! Here on DU, that kind of sarcasm is expected and welcomed!

But several years ago I was on a discussion forum devoted to a television show, and I dared to suggest that just because the stories in the bible didn't include tales of Jesus' romantic life didn't mean he wasn't married--only that it wasn't mentioned in the stories that have survived. In other words, absence of information isn't proof something didn't happen at all.

Oh. My. God. You would think I had said Jesus was another name for Satan--one poster even said he was so upset at my HYPOTHETICAL SUGGESTION that he had to leave the board! As far as I know, he's still under his bed in a fetal position.

[On the Road]

23. One Implication of This

that might go unnoticed is that many of the Dead Sea Scrolls were dated to the same period.

It has been speculated that some of the references in those scrolls, like the "pierced Messiah," refer to Jesus. This interpretation has been unpopular largely because of the carbon dating.

Carbon dating tends to archaize. If it is indeed doing that, this find might have even broader implications that you might imagine.

[seemslikeadream]

25. late 2nd century B.C

That's BEFORE CHRIST?

[LiberalHeart]

33. Well, he WAS a magician.

[Moochy]

27. This explains the circular coffee stains on the Q Source!

:yoiks:

[Canuckistanian]

28. In Greek?

I didn't think that the Greeks were active in the promotion of Christianity in the 1st century.

But then again, Greek was a lingua franca among scholars at the time.

[foo_bar]

46. the (original) New Testament was in Greek

The New Testament is sometimes called the Greek Testament or Greek Scriptures, or the New Covenant – which is the literal translation of the original Greek. The original texts were written in Koine Greek by various authors after c. AD 45 and before c. AD 140.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Testament

The word evangelist comes from the Koine Greek word εὐαγγέλιον (transliterated as "euangelion") via Latin "Evangelium" <...>

The Greek word εὐαγγέλιον originally meant a reward for good news given to the messenger (εὔ = "good", ἀγγέλλω = "I bring a message"; the word angel is of the same root) and later "good news". The latter term gives rise to the word "Gospel".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evangelism

Linguistic evidence in support of the OP:

Gospel is a word of Anglo-Saxon origin, and meaning "God's spell", i.e., word of God, or rather, according to others, "good spell", i.e., good news. It is the rendering of the Greek evangelion, i.e., "good message."

http://www.mb-soft.com/believe/txw/gospel.htm

[Critters2]

53. Koine Greek was the lingua franca of the eastern Mediterranean region

from Alexander's time through the early Christian era. The New Testament was all written in Koine Greek.

[Swamp Rat]

31. Did they say anything about jeebus and the dinosaurs?

[leeroysphitz]

36. Dia Blane O Goistais. n/t

[npk]

37. Actually this could further the belief that Christ performed miracles

I mean back when Jesus lived people probably thought that a man that could walk on water, raise people from the dead, and disappear from his tomb was a magician. All the fundies will be pointing to this as prima facia evidence that Christ was supernatural.

[Hissyspit]

44. It doesn't say anything about Jesus, though.

[npk]

51. Well true

I was assuming that you believe Christ is Jesus, and vice versa.

[Hissyspit]

61. Well, that's what fundies will believe.

but it doesn't say anything about Jesus of Nazareth. It only makes reference to Christ "annointed one." Christ mythos existed before Jesus of Nazareth's time (assuming he even existed), and this cup, if authentic, with it's referencing to Christo, only tends to support the existence of "messiah" theology that was prevalent in these times, if it even is evidence of that. People read ancient artifacts through their own cultural value system, the confirmation bias. The engraving could mean all kinds of things (again, assuming it is authentic and not a forgery).

[Danieljay]

98. EXACTLY. Jesus and Christ are not synonymous. Good catch. n/t

[Neshanic]

38. Very hard to get tickets to his shows from what was also found.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

40. A linguistic note:

"Christ" isn't a name; it's a title meaning "the anointed one."

[Zhade]

41. Sure. And they found his brother's ossurary. And the Shroud of Turin is real.

:rofl:

So desperate to prove their myth!

[agent46]

42. Reminds me

Seems like the glyphs on the cup refer to a "christou" but not necessarily a person. Am I wrong in thinking that the word "christ" has a provenance long preceding the era of Jesus?
In a gnostic tradition, "by Christ the magician" or, "the magician by Christ." might be a truism or slogan that was bandied about at the time just like we might say "Be here now.." or "Go with the flow."

This thread reminds me of an interesting book I read a few years ago. Deals with some of the points brought up.

Jesus the Magician : Charlatan or Son of God
by Morton Smith

Smith was a prof of Ancient History at Columbia University. He was known as an Historian for having discovered a fragment of a letter from Clement of Alexandria. The fragment referred to a secret gospel by St. Mark and of "Jesus' secret rites." He's got some thought provoking things to say about the way Jesus may have been perceived by his contemporaries. For myself, I'm inclined to believe that "Jesus" is an amalgam of many men both legend and real. That is, he only tended to exist.

:hippie:

[progressoid]

43. Sooo...is that a Grande or a Venti?

[jberryhill]

47. That was before they switched to "Drink Ye All Of It" from the original "Good To The Last Drop"

These are my beans, which are dark roasted and ground for you.

Drink this in remembrance of how hammered you were last night.

[XemaSab]

55. As someone who had 36 oz of Sierra and half a bottle of wine last night...

:rofl:

[beac]

76. Good one!

:rofl:

But you forgot this part:

"Take, eat; this is a breakfast burrito that absorbeth the sins of tequila by divine grease."

[SoCalDem]

48. Obviously a QVC special purchase

:)

[2008]

49. This proves that time travel exists

Jesus used a time machine to visit the past, and accidentally left his coffee cup there.

[Phredicles]

54. Are we sure it's not some other "Christ"?

I mean, Khristos means 'annointed one'; its not hard for me to imagine there were other such individuals in that part of the world in those days, but that only one of them went on to become famous.

[starroute]

62. There are indications that Christianity predates the alleged time of Jesus

By 50 AD, communities calling themselves "Christian" were apparently widespread within the Roman Empire. All of them revered "Christ" as the savior-figure of a mystery cult and not as a human teacher. It wasn't until the second century AD that the figure of the historical Jesus began to appear.

There were many mystery cults in the area between Syria and Egypt beginning in the Hellenistic period following the conquests of Alexander the Great around 300 BC, and they created various fusions of Jewish, Egyptian, Greek, Zoroastrian, and possibly even Buddhist religion and cosmology.

The Therapeuts were an initiatory cult at Alexandria (which this cup was found) that practiced sun-worship and are said to have had a savior-god known by such names as Iesous or Iasios. Allegedly their allegorical myths became the basic "story" of Christianity, their wisdom literature -- which combined materials from all the best sources -- came to be presented as the teachings of Jesus (which is why parts of the Gospels are so powerful), and their basic organizational forms and holidays were adopted by later Christian churches.

Jewish Therapeuts were known as Nazarenes -- which is allegedly why Jesus was described as being "of Nazareth," which was then a small village of no particular distinction.

I can't find it in my notes right now, but I believe I've seen it suggested that Christian-like materials have previously been found dating from the first or second century BC, but the translations or dating have been deliberately muddied in deference to Christian sensibilities.

There is certainly nothing that clearly ties the Jesus-story to the period of around 30 AD in which the Gospels set it. The historical details given in the Gospels are definitely few and fuzzy, and I know I've seen suggestions that there was a deliberate attempt to tie Jesus (who was either mythic or a minor figure) to John the Baptist (who was real, well documented, and highly significant) by fiddling the dates to make Jesus the perfecter of John's message.

Most of what I've said in this post comes from highly speculative or marginal sources, so I wouldn't rely on it without additional confirmation. But hopefully this cup will lead to more scholarly discussion of all these issues which have been largely buried.

[shadowknows69]

81. Thanks for bringing that up. I couldn't remember the exact translation

But yeah, like Frankenstein was the Doctor not the monster, Christ is more like a title than Jesus' last name. There could have been any number of "Christs" throughout the millennia.

[Greg K]

60. They can carbon date the mug - but how do they know when it was engraved? nt

[csziggy]

136. You can't carbon date ceramics - gotta have organic matter for carbon dating!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carbon_dating

But that engraving sure looks awfully sharp - and there is no patina on the engraving as there is on the wear marks and scratches on the other parts of the cup that are visible.

The James ossuary had different patina on the different sections of the engraving - that is one way they may have proven it was a forgery though of course not everyone agrees. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Ossuary

[dchill]

63. They might be onto something!

Did they try filling it with water, and, you know, seeing if it turned into... :beer:

:shrug:

[OakCliffDem]

64. A good magician never reveals his secrets

This one has kept his for 2000 years

[Norrin Radd]

68. Magic Jesus is all, "Yeah, Hermes Trismegistus, I'm going to need you

to come in on the sabbath and turn some lead to gold, and finish those TPS reports--that would be terrific, OK?"

[muriel_volestrangler]

69. Strangely, English language media have ignored this for 2 weeks

While it's been in major media in Germany: http://www.spiegel.de/spiegel/0,1518,578055,00.html

and Italy: http://www.corriere.it/cronache/08_settembre_18/vaso_cristo_049ff6bc-858f-11dd-bcd5-00144f02aabc.shtml

and media (not sure how big) in Portugal: http://dn.sapo.pt/2008/09/19/ciencia/descoberta_a_mais_antiga_referencia_.html

Spain: http://www.elmundo.es/elmundo/2008/09/17/ciencia/1221645751.html

all that time.

Lots of blog discussion, as a result, if you look for it.

[muriel_volestrangler]

70. Note it reads 'Chrestou', not 'Christou'

Yet . . . I do wonder why the inscription reads "DIA CHRESTOU OGOISTAIS" rather than "DIA CHRISTOU OGOISTAIS." The word "chrestou" is the genitive singular form of "chrestos," which is an adjective meaning "good," and therefore not the title "Christos," which is what one would expect if this referred to Christ. Why would a forger choose to inscribe the word "good" rather than "Christ"? Was the supposed forger so inept?

The German article in Der Spiegel notes that "chrestos" was actually used rather often as a Greek name:

"Chrestos war in Griechenland ein gebräuchlicher männlicher Vorname", erklärt der Historiker Manfred Clauss aus Frankfurt am Main, "das muss nichts mit Jesus zu tun haben."

Translated, this says:

"Chrestos was commonly a man's given name in Greece," explains the historian Manfred Clauss of Frankfurt am Main. "That need not have anything to do with Jesus."

This is correct, but I do recall, from my time studying with New Testament Professor Otto Betz in Tübingen, that "Christos" and "chrestos" were sometimes interchanged as a wordplay since "Christ" was "good." Perhaps the putative forger was not inept but clever?

http://gypsyscholarship.blogspot.com/2008/09/early-christian-cup-dia-chrestou.html

That blog points out many think the inscription too sharp for something 2000 years old, that's been buried in the sea.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

128. I Haven't Seen Any Article State That. Did The Author In Yours Make It Up?

Every article I've seen says the inscription says CHRSTOU not CHRESTOU.

[muriel_volestrangler]

132. If you look at the picture in the OP

You see:

delta iota alpha chi rho eta sigma tau omicron upsilon

The 'rho' is the character shaped like a Latin/English 'P'; the 'eta' is the one rather like an 'h' - see eg http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_alphabet

If you look at the Der Speigel article I linked to in the post above the one you replied to, you'll see they spell the inscription as 'chrestou'. I don't know why others are ignoring that character - unless they just think it doesn't fit the 'big story' they want.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

135. How Do We Know They're Right? Everyone Else Translated It Chrstou not Chrestou. Maybe They Added

it themselves?

What leads you to believe that Der Speigel is right and not every other article on the subject? What makes you think the letter would simply be ignored by everyone else?

[muriel_volestrangler]

139. Because I learnt a little Greek

and I can see that that is a character between the rho and the sigma, and it looks nothing like an iota (for which you have an example in the 2nd character - very easy to inscribe, since it's just one straight line. Eta does seem by far the best fit for that character.

I don't know who you mean by "maybe they added it themselves" - MSNBC, who's hosting that picture, or Discovery, who they credit for the story? Are you saying that they've made up a separate bowl, to insert a character that the then don't talk about in their story? The thing is, it's transliteration, not translation - you just look at the letters. There's indisputably a character there.

Not everyone ignores it - from the Discovery story:

Bert Smith, a professor of classical archaeology and art at Oxford University, suggests the engraving might be a dedication, or present, made by a certain "Chrestos" belonging to a possible religious association called Ogoistais.

The blog said 'chrest-' was used in wordplay. So maybe some of them are just hoping they'll be able to justify it that way. But I think the misreporting of it is spin, by those in search of making the story more convincing than it is at first glance.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

143. I Got Ya Now. I Was Misunderstanding A Little.

I thought it was translation not transliteration. Didn't realize there was more inscription on the other side and that the word you were referencing was in full right there. I totally see what you're saying now.

I know the chrest could be used in wordplay, but I think there are alternate explanations as well. Reading up on the greek alphabet, I just quickly learned that the eta has evolved and that sometime maybe around 4 AD, it became pronounced as 'i'. Now either those translating it need to brush up on their ancient greek, or the person that inscribed it fraudulently didn't realize that back then it still was pronounced 'e'.

I also have to wonder, since there really is no definitive dating of different greek dialects, if the eta may have in fact been pronounced as 'i' by some in that period. It seems the language was all over the place as it relates to annunciation back then.

[old mark]

71. And there is a little sticker on the bottom reading

"Made in China".


mark

[itsrobert]

72. Isn't magic a form of witchcraft? n/t

n/t

[Marrah_G]

77. It's a part of witchcraft

And then the ~craft~ part is just a part of different religions. The religious aspect is what generally dictates the "ethics" of the craft aspect.

IE: witchcraft itself is not a religion but is an aspect of many different religions. And to break that down even more, magic is just a part of witchcraft, examples of other parts would be herbal and/or spiritual healing, divination, etc.

[Marrah_G]

78. Magic is part of Judiasm

RE: the Quabalah

So it isn't to much of a stretch to believe the community surrounding Jesus believed in magic of some form.

His ~miracles~ are magic and magic are ~miracles if you really break it down.

[shadowknows69]

83. Seriously, the Jews love their ancient magic

Qabalistic mythology is some cool stuff.

[Marrah_G]

92. Something that might interest you

http://www.amazon.com/Modern-Magick-Lessons-Magickal-Llewellyns/dp/0875423248

This was part of my student's reading lists. I think you would find it a valuable addition to your library if you don't already own it.

[shadowknows69]

94. Thanks Marrah

Alas it might have to wait a bit. I have a friend giving me a constant stream of reading suggestions. I'm going to need a couple more lifetimes to catch up to it all. Thank Gods we believe in reincarnation eh? B-)

[Not the Only One]

79. He probably performed to "The Final Countdown."

[noel711]

80. First of all, that 'bowl' looks uncharacteristically modern...

I'ts too uniform, and the shape doesn't look right for the time period.
I think it's fraudulent, just as was that so called 'bone box' with Jesus'
name engraved on it from a few years ago.

SEcondly, and most important,
the person that we associate with Jesus of Nazareth,
called the Christ (the Messiah in Hebrew)
was not the only man called the Christ (the Messiah)
during that time period.

There were many so-called "Christs" who were doing miracles,
and magic. Many Messiahs blew thru towns claiming they
had all the answered. The word "Christ" simply means
the anointed one.

There were also many men with the name "Jesus"
(a form of the name Joshua)... the man Barabbas,
who was released in the stead of Jesus of NAzareth
was actually named JEsus Barabbas.

How many 'messiahs' does our contemporary world view
as masters of whatever they profess to know?
Hitler certainly was seen as a savior..

I think we need to take a step back from over-reaction
to news stories that love to manipulate us.

It also grieves me that people use transparent
stories like this to bash people of faith.
There are many faithful Christians who are not the
fundamentalistic, narrow-minded, right wing persuasion
who take very seriously the role of justice and
peace.

[Lyric]

86. My personal standard for deciding whether or not I believe

that someone is truly a "Christian" is to look at his or her priorities. If the person begrudges every tax dollar to pay for Food Stamps, but zealously pontificates against homosexuality, that person is not a Christian to me. In my view, real Christians take seriously the call to feed the hungry and shelter the vulnerable, without judgement or expectation of reward. Christians who think that a hundred dollars is better spent on condemnation (like Chick Tract pamphlets) than on relief of real human suffering are people who have no relationship at all with Christ.

I have seen many, many people who claim to be Christians, but only precious few of whom I would believe it.

[shadowknows69]

90. Christianity to many is a club

something we think we need to belong to to be "normal" in this country. partly thanks to a certain retail oriented religious national holiday. It's how probably 85-90% of us were raised in this country. It's a national clique. I doubt a third of people calling themselves Christians actually give a thought a year to the meanings or teachings of their chosen/inherited religion.

[Nevernose]

82. So is Roy the second coming or is it Siegfried?

[Lyric]

84. I am not a religious person, but

"Christ" did not mean the same thing back then as it does now. It was a Greek word for "anointed one," or even just "covered in oil."

The cup could easily be referencing someone entirely different than the Christian Jesus. Think "Greasy Johnson" from Good Omens. ;)

[SidDithers]

97. I think it was a joke mug...

given to Stavros Papakopoulis, by his co-workers, after he fell into a vat of olive oil.

Sid

[Efilroft Sul]

85. Jesus is Magic!

I can't believe I was the first to reference that movie.

[shadowknows69]

95. reference noted and appreciated

Just watched it the other night.

[leveymg]

88. Note the curious dating, "dated between late 2nd century B.C. and the early 1st century A.D."

Unless Jesus was 130 years old at the time of his death, how could this artifact possibly date from the late 2nd century B.C.? A possible answer was that the Christ myth predated the birth of Jesus, and Jesus was the living embodiment.

[nashville_brook]

103. we were JUST talking about this last night -- yes, there were many "messiahs" back then.

the word, and the "position" had a different meaning than the mysterical (mystic/hysterical) spin put on it since. a Messiah was merely a leader -- one who would lead the people out of the crappy government they were experiencing at any given time.

this is totally cool.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

121. Well, he was a magician.

He used his time-travelling magic spells.

[TornadoTN]

123. Or maybe Paul bastardized the whole messiah concept and hijacked the life of a good man?

I don't know the answer to the question, obviously, but it seems to me that what Christ preached and his lessons for mankind were twisted and turned by Paul in his rush to establish some kind of social control organization or pseudo-government, i.e. the Church.

[shadowknows69]

91. Anyone who wants to see a really interesting science fiction movie

Small independent, thoughtful piece. SHould check out "The Man from earth"

<http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0756683/>

[Phred42]

99. IT's probably the Grail

:rofl:

[Phillycat]

100. Looks like it came from Pier 1.

[DemoTex]

102. Jesus' magic bowl. Turns eels into succulent rack-of-lamb.

He used it at his last dinner party. Read it yesterday on DU.

[OnyxCollie]

104. I bet it says "Made in China" on the bottom. nt

[GreatCaesarsGhost]

105. Now watch me pull a rabbi out of my hat!

[east texas lib]

144. Again?!

;-)

[LeftHander]

113. "Jesusware" Stoneware

That dang Jesus dude had talent.

[AlCzervik]

115. Can you collect the whole set?

[Indenturedebtor]

116. LOL yeah but you have to eat happy meals for a month straight n/t

[dgibby]

118. Zeitigeist

To all posters on this thread: I've read your comments with great interest and would like feedback re: Zeitigeist: The Movie: PartI: Are the Stories in the Bible True? I found it very interesting, and am wondering if any of you have seen it. If so, I'd be interested in your take on it. Thanks!

[DearAbby]

127. "It's Satan's Mug...DONT LOOK AT IT!" - Sarah Palin.n/t

[MrScorpio]

133. Too bad more of the pre-Nicean stuff didn't survive

[THUNDER HANDS]

134. isn't "Christ" more of a title than a name?

like The Christ, so this could have been referring to someone other than Jesus.

[HughMoran]

140. I was thinking today how right-wing Christians believe in "The Christ", but NOT in Jesus

Right-wingers hate Jesus, they love "The Christ" and all that that entails.

[madmom]

141. I'm not really very knowledgeable about the various religions but I do have a question that

I've wondered about for years. Why is it a lot of religions admit to using some kind of "help" to achieve their visions or prophecies or whatever you want to call them, but the christians religion decries it? It seems to me that would be a way of rationalizing these "burning bushes","pillar of salt", to name two, miracles(?)

[BuyingThyme]

145. Maybe that's his urn.