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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-06-08 01:12 PM
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The Corruption of Religion
Like most Americans of my age, I grew up surrounded by religion – even though my parents were not religious. Religion has always fascinated me, and I used to read a lot about it, though I’m not sure exactly what I learned from all that reading.

I believe, though I am not certain, that various religions have produced a lot of good in the world. Many of Jesus’ teachings form the core of the same kind of beliefs that permeate the Democratic Underground and other liberal/progressive organizations today. In the mid-19th Century, some Christian groups played a prominent role in the abolitionist movement, as well as other progressive causes. And religion provides comfort to hundreds of millions or perhaps billions of the world’s inhabitants today.

It even sometimes provides comfort to me, though I practice no formal religion, never attend church any more, and have only vague and unformed beliefs on the subject. But I never, as far as I can tell, base any of my decisions on whatever religious beliefs I do hold. To the extent that I believe in God (which varies over time), I believe that he/she/it expects us to make our own decisions. Why give us free will if we are expected to simply do as we are told?

Many have argued that, over the course of human history, religion has been far more destructive to humans, other creatures and our planet than it has been a force for good. Perhaps the biggest reason for believing that is that many or most wars and other abominations throughout human history have been justified on the basis of religion. But that is not necessarily the fault of religion per se. One of the major excuses that George W. Bush used for his invasion of Iraq is that he wanted to spread freedom and democracy to the Iraqi people. That is no indictment against freedom and democracy. Those ideals merely served as convenient excuses for George Bush to do what he wanted to do. The truth of the matter is that any time a person or a nation does something horrible, that person or nation will always find some honorable intention with which to justify it. If religion had never been invented there would always be some other rationalization available to justify any atrocity that one is inclined to commit.


The highest ideals of religion

I recently read a brief description of religion at its best in a book titled “Blessed Unrest – How the Largest Social Movement in History Is Restoring Grace, Justice, and Beauty to the World”, by Paul Hawken. That book is not about religion. It is about a confluence of the environmental and social justice movements all over the world. But the last chapter in the book touches on religion at its best, or as it was meant to be, referencing another book by another author:

In a seminal work, The Great Transformation, Karen Armstrong details the origins of our religious traditions during what is called the Axial Age… from 900 to 200 BCE, during which much of the world turned away from violence, cruelty, and barbarity. The upwelling of philosophy, insight, and intellect from that era lives today in the works of Socrates, Plato, Lao-tzu, Confucius, Mencius, Buddha, Jeremiah, Isaiah, and others. Rather than establishing doctrinaire religious institutions, these teachers created social movements that addressed human suffering. These movements were later called Buddhism, Hinduism, Confucianism, monotheistic Judaism, democracy, and philosophical rationalism; the second flowering of the Axial Age brought forth Christianity, Islam, and Rabbinical Judaism. The point Armstrong strongly emphasizes is that the early expressions of religiosity during the Axial Age were not theocratic systems requiring belief, but instructional practices requiring action. The arthritic catechisms and rituals that we now accept as religion had no place in the precepts of these sages, prophets, and mystics. Their goal was to foster a compassionate society, and the question of whether there was an omnipotent God was irrelevant to how one might lead a moral life. They asked their students to question and challenge and, as opposed to modern religion, to take nothing on faith… They urged their followers to change how they behaved in the world. All relied on a common principle, the Golden Rule: Never do to anyone what you would not have done to yourself…

Their objective was to create an entirely different kind of human being. All the sages preached a spirituality of empathy and compassion; they insisted that people must abandon their egotism and greed, their violence and unkindness… Nearly all of the Axial sages realized that you could not confine your benevolence to your own people: your concern must somehow extend to the entire world… If people behaved with kindness and generosity to their fellows, they could save the world.

If that’s a description of religion at its best, it sounds damn good to me. I read a book by Karen Armstrong many years ago. It was called “A History of God – The 4,000 Year Quest of Judaism, Christianity and Islam” (copyright 1993). I don’t remember many of the details, but I do remember that I considered the book to be scholarly, balanced, enlightening, and not too difficult to read for such a complex subject.


The role of ideology in justifying atrocity

Religions are ideologies – which is simply to say that they are a “set of doctrines or beliefs that form the basis of a political, economic, or other system.” Andrew M. Lobaczewski, in his book “Political Ponerology – A Science on the Nature of Evil Adjusted for Political Purposes”, writes about the role of ideology in the process that leads to pathocracies (a pathocracy is a social movement, society, nation, or empire that is controlled by evil individuals and habitually perpetrates evil deeds on its people and/or other people.) The ideology itself is usually not inherently evil, and the ideology does not generally characterize the movement or group. Rather, the ideology serves as a mask, to hide the actual intentions of the group. Lobaczewski explains it like this:

It is a common phenomenon for a ponerogenic association or group to contain a particular ideology which always justifies its activities and furnishes motivational propaganda…. Human nature demands that vile matters be haloed by an over-compensatory mystique in order to silence one’s conscience and to deceive consciousness and critical faculties, whether one’s own or those of others.

If such a ponerogenic union could be stripped of its ideology, nothing would remain except psychological and moral pathology, naked and unattractive. Such stripping would of course provoke “moral outrage”, and not only among the members of the union.

The fact is, even normal people, who condemn this kind of union along with its ideologies, feel hurt and deprived of something constituting part of their own romanticism, their way of perceiving reality when a widely idealized group is exposed as little more than a gang of criminals.

That explains why so many normal Americans are willing to accept the Bush administration’s lame excuses for everything it does. Acknowledging that our President and Vice President are no more than criminal thugs and psychopaths is just too painful for most Americans. It is much more comfortable for them to believe that their President’s actions are motivated by a desire to defend Americans against danger, to spread democracy and freedom to other parts of the world, or any of a variety of pure “Christian” reasons.

The justification of religion as a reason for committing atrocities is probably as old as religion itself. One of the best known examples is the Christian Crusades. These were a series of military actions and wars conducted by European Christians, primarily against Islam, between 1096 and about 1272. The motivation for these wars was probably no different from that of most other wars, and as with many other wars, religion was used as the primary justification. Though Muslims were the primary targets, the Crusades also unleashed massacres of Jews and other Christian sects.

Here is a brief description of several other atrocities committed in the name of religion, including the Roman persecution of Christians, human sacrifices by the Aztecs, the Puritan witch hunts, the Medieval Inquisition, and Islamic Jihads.


The worst of religion

Bill Moyers, a former Baptist minister, describes in a speech titled “9/11 and the Sport of God”, the culmination of the worst of Christian tradition in our country, and how it has allied with the wealthy and powerful to threaten the very foundations of our democracy and the quality of life for most Americans:

The radical Religious Right has succeeded in taking over one of America’s great political parties – the country is not yet a theocracy but the Republican Party is – and they are driving American politics, using God as a battering ram on almost every issue: crime and punishment, foreign policy, health care, taxation, energy, regulation, social services, and so on.

What’s also unique is the intensity, organization, and anger they have brought to the public square. Listen to their preachers, evangelists, and homegrown ayatollahs: Their viral intolerance – their loathing of other people’s beliefs, of America’s secular and liberal values, of an independent press, of the courts, of reason, science and the search for objective knowledge – has become an unprecedented sectarian crusade for state power. They use the language of faith to demonize political opponents, mislead and misinform voters, censor writers and artists, ostracize dissenters, and marginalize the poor. These are the foot soldiers in a political holy war financed by wealthy economic interests and guided by savvy partisan operatives who know that couching political ambition in religious rhetoric can ignite the passion of followers as ferociously as when Constantine painted the Sign of Christ (the “Christograph”) on the shields of his soldiers and on the banners of his legions and routed his rivals in Rome….

Alas, these “great moral issues” do not include building a moral economy. The Christian Right trumpets charity (as in Faith Based Initiatives) but is silent on social and economic justice. Inequality in America has reached scandalous proportions… None of these harsh realities of ordinary life seem to bother the radical religious right. To the contrary, in the pursuit of political power they have cut a deal with America’s richest class and their partisan allies in a law-of-the-jungle strategy to “starve” the government of resources needed for vital social services that benefit everyone while championing more and more spending on rich corporations and larger tax cuts for the rich.

How else to explain the vacuum in their “great moral issues” of the plight of millions of Americans without adequate health care? Of the gross corruption of politics by campaign contributions that skew government policies toward the wealthy at the expense of ordinary taxpayers? …

This is the crux of the matter: To these fundamentalist radicals there is only one legitimate religion and only one particular brand of that religion that is right; all others who call on God are immoral or wrong. They believe the Bible to be literally true and that they alone know what it means. Behind their malicious attacks on the courts (“vermin in black robes,” as one of their talk show allies recently put it) is a fierce longing to hold judges accountable for interpreting the Constitution according to standards of biblical revelation as fundamentalists define it. To get those judges they needed a party beholden to them. So the Grand Old Party – the GOP – has become God’s Own Party, its ranks made up of God’s Own People “marching as to war.”


Leaders and followers – The use of hate and fear to take over our country

There is no evidence that the move of fundamentalist Christians towards the Republican Party in recent years is because of Republican policies being more representative of the Christian religion than are Democratic policies. In fact, Democrats favor policies that are much more in accordance with the heart of the Christian religion than do Republicans. Jesus Christ was a liberal. As explained by Gary Vance, a Christian Evangelical Minister:

Jesus was the ultimate liberal progressive revolutionary of all history. The conservative religious and social structure that He defied hated and crucified Him. They examined His life and did not like what they saw. He aligned Himself with the poor and the oppressed. He challenged the religious orthodoxy of His day. He advocated pacifism and loving our enemies. He liberated women and minorities from oppression.… Jesus was the original Liberal. He was a progressive, and He was judged and hated for it.

Then how have the radical right leaders of the Republican Party managed to convince fundamentalist Christians to vote for them in such large numbers? They do it through hate and fear. Mostly, they convince a certain segment of fundamentalist Christians that liberals are out to destroy their religion. They say that liberals have proclaimed war on Christmas; liberals are out to destroy Christian marriage by pushing for equal rights for homosexuals; and they say that by keeping prayer out of the public school system liberals would deny the right of Christians to practice their religion.

This is all a smokescreen. Liberals have no interest whatsoever in destroying Christianity. They simply believe in the separation of church and state, and they believe that minorities should not be discriminated against in the interest of those Christians who are intolerant of the beliefs of others.

Vance puts this all in perspective and asks Christians to consider behaving in accordance with the best traditions of their religion rather than the corrupted version that their political leaders have tried to sell them in recent years:

I am glad that conservative Republican candidates advocate for the family and a few Christian issues, but we must quit pretending that they are the only ones that Christians should consider voting for. People should not call themselves pro-life if they are only anti-abortion and yet feel no twinge of conscience over the unfair application of capital punishment or wars fought for dubious motives. A true pro-life position cares just as passionately for the born as the un-born and views war as a last resort when all other options are exhausted.

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FiveGoodMen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-06-08 01:27 PM
Response to Original message
1. K&R
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Ichingcarpenter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-06-08 01:28 PM
Response to Original message
2. Nominated kick n/t
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InvisibleTouch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-06-08 01:30 PM
Response to Original message
3. A great read, spot-on.
Wish it could be read all over the country, but sadly the people who need to see it most, will never be exposed to it.
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Supersedeas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-06-08 02:06 PM
Response to Original message
4. religion that has been adulterated & weaponized by the Corporate RW
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Karenina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-06-08 02:09 PM
Response to Reply #4
5. Leo Strauss trained the Chicago Boyz about its 'proper" use.
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conscious evolution Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-07-08 07:42 AM
Response to Reply #4
29. The takeover of the Southern Babtist Convention
in the late seventies/early eighties was one of the first steps in the process.

When they gained control it gave them control of the Babtist seminaries and the ideaology being taught to their students.
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puebloknot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-06-08 02:45 PM
Response to Original message
6. Every home-schooling parent should be required to read this ...
... and share it with their children. But I'm smoking dope, of course.

It is what imperfect men do with elevated social philosophies (my terminology to get around my knee-jerk reaction to the word "religion" :) ) which has led us to our current mess, and more and more people are taking their children out of public schools to shield them from science and literature which shed light on the main questions of most religions -- where we came from, and where we are going.

Unless and until we enact a requirement that every child be exposed to modern educational themes, and that parents not be able to sabotage that kind of exposure, we'll continue to have an army of uninformed and fanatical people entering the voting booth, and insinuating their way into public affairs, in contravention of Constitutional law.
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-06-08 06:27 PM
Response to Reply #6
12. I didn't know that
more and more people are taking their children out of public schools to shield them against science and literature. That is a scary thought. Do we know that that's why they're doing it, or could it be because of the deteriorating conditions of our underfunded public schools? I thought that our country was turning against Bush and his radical right positions.

I think you're right about requiring that children be exposed to modern educational themes. All children deserve a decent education, whether their parents want them to have it or not.
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ElboRuum Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-06-08 08:51 PM
Response to Reply #12
16. If I may chime in here...
There are several reasons people are going the parochial/home schooling route.

Some of them are legitimate, like the one you offered up as a potential cause, the deteriorating condition and quality of education in public schools. Traditional parochial schools, such as Catholic schools, tend to infuse religion into the curriculum, but not at the expense of a quality scientific education (although they may glance over evolution). However, many members of evangelical religions on the very far right of the political spectrum are so convinced that public schools are poisoning their children against their faith, by introducing concepts such as evolution, exposing them to what they think is subversive literature, and teaching safe sex in health classes, that they just pull them out and home school them so that they have complete control of the information that they are exposed to.

In answer to your question about turning away from the positions of George Bush, yes people are doing this in droves, but not all for the same reasons. The people who wanted a conservative fiscal policy and lower taxation didn't get what they were after and so turned away from the administration. Those who wanted Jesus in the bully pulpit and to replace the Constitution with the Bible didn't get what they were after either. But make no mistake, they're just as radical as ever. Their religious beliefs have not been changed one iota simply because they put their faith in the wrong person to accomplish their goals. There are still a non-trivial amount of people in this country who want a perpetual state of war and a nation which holds the secular ideals on which our Constitution is largely based in contempt to the point of irrelevance.
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puebloknot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-07-08 12:51 AM
Response to Reply #16
20. In the work I do, I speak to people all over the country every week.
I offer training in the legal field which allows people to work at home. So I attract huge numbers of people (women are the ones who call me) whose main purpose in wanting to work at home is to be with their children, primarily so they can control what they are exposed to. The don't often tell me exactly why they want to homeschool, but my radar is always engaged for the sub rosa agenda that drives them. The things you've outlined here constitute the reasons most people homeschool. The want to save their children from the evils of secular society. And very few of them, in my opinion, are equipped to teach their own children at the lower grade levels, and certainly not from junior high school and upward. Ignorance begets ignorance, and growing numbers of young people are coming to adulthood with not even the most basic educational skills.

I am not Catholic, but I considered putting my daughter in a Catholic school a few times, when she was growing up, because of the faltering quality of education she was getting in public schools. I couldn't do it because I didn't want to fight the indoctrination she would get in a parochial school, subtle thought it might be. (In an aside, I'll share that her having an ex-nun stepmother was enough Catholicism for her to have to deal with! But that's another story.)

I have said it many times: I don't think that a lot of educated people really see how dangerous the evangelical influence is in this country. It's quixotic and deserves either pity or a laugh and a shake of the head, but it's not anything we should take *that* seriously. I'm ultra-sensitive to the issue because I grew up (thank God, I grew up) with "those people," and I know how they operate. They are so friendly and helpful you could just throw up, but beware because they have an agenda. They have their own language, based essentially on English, but with their own definition for a lot of the vocabulary, and tutoring in how to say the one thing and mean the other -- and those "in the know" will get it, while we lambs to the slaughter will not. Sarah Palin is the penultimate example of this.

"The Family," by Jeff Sharlet is a marvelous look at how the religious right has infiltrated every area of government, every area of public life.
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-07-08 07:16 AM
Response to Reply #16
26. That makes sense -- The question that all this raises in my mind is
Why is there so much radical right relgious thinking in this country today compared to earler decades?

My best guess is that the wealthy have found that the only way to regain the power that they lost for several decades with the onset of FDR's New Deal is to make an alliance with the gullible of the radical Christian Right, and manipulate them into giving them unquestioned political support. That's the only thing left that makes sense to me. Yet, it's incredible to believe that so many people could let themselves be SO manipulated in that way.
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ElboRuum Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-07-08 09:18 AM
Response to Reply #26
30. It must be my cynicism showing...
But I'm never really surprised by that. We live in a world which has essentially become an exercise in psychological manipulation. Just look at the tube, and notice how things are presented to us. There just never seems to be a fact expressed without someone's opinion to go along with it. Advertising seems to be ubiquitous. And the concept of political non-partisanship through the media is a concept which began to break its shackles and fly away when the Fairness Doctrine was repealed. We live in a world in which people are always trying to sell us, by hook or by crook, some idea or concept which we don't want or need, so they try to sell us the idea that we do want it or need it. It's in everything... politics, economics, social trends, whatever. If we thought for ourselves, we wouldn't need the concept peddlers, would we?
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Hannah Bell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-07-08 05:28 PM
Response to Reply #26
35. it's been funded. those megachurches didn't spring up by accident.
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puebloknot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-07-08 01:07 AM
Response to Reply #12
21. Do we know?
I posted below, so am including you in that response! :)

No doubt some people are solely concerned about their children getting a decent education, and they know it isn't happening in the public schools. But I think those people are more likely to seek out a private school. Some of those people may homeschool because they just can't afford a private school. But they will likely use curricula that are not laced with Jesus talk.

Homeschoolers, for the most part, are people who are cultish in their thinking, and want to control what their children learn. There have been many television documentaries about religious right people "schooling" their children at home. So we end up with a lot of unschooled, homeschooled young people. And many districts allow the parents to substitute something in lieu of mainstream science. They don't like evolution, they don't have to tolerate it. They can find some elective that is remotely "scientific" and avoid the mainstream science courses.

I saw something on television recently, or maybe it was here at DU, where a university refused to admit some homeschooled students unless and until they took normal science and math courses as prerequisites.

My "science and literature" comment was not sufficiently detailed, but I think our friend, below, covered it nicely.

My views are not based on double-blind studies, but I've personally experienced enough of a sampling to cause me to feel alarm over the issue. We're in a downward spiral where even people who attend college and come out with a bachelor's degree are woefully ignorant. So much worse is the situation where the blind are smugly leading the blind -- a new generation of America voters, more's the pity.
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-07-08 05:55 PM
Response to Reply #21
39. I think I see where you're coming from
I've never understood them very well.

I might have told you this before, but my wife has some nieces who were brought up as Christian fundamentalists. I like them, but I find their ideas very hard to take. I would like to "interview" them to try to understand it better, but I haven't found a way to do that without seeming to insult them.
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puebloknot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-07-08 06:52 PM
Response to Reply #39
41. *You* are one of those educated and tolerant people who always...
... comes to mind when I consider this situation. It's very hard to really understand how robotic and determined these people are who have been brainwashed (with velvet gloves) into believing they're chosen to live out a destiny that doesn't necessarily include the likes of you and me. You come at the problem from a rational stance, and you're kind enough to really want to understand. But I'm always using this analogy, and particularly with regard to our current political situation: When a bulldog (I began using this analogy before Palin hit the scene, BTW) has hold of your pantsleg, you have to detach it from your leg before you can engage in considered dialogue. The religious right *is* that bulldog in our current situation. THey have evolved about as much as my five-year-old daughter had when she told me, in no uncertain terms, "I won't share!" Christian Dominionists believe the world is theirs for the taking, and we will be collateral damage who do not share their views. That's why it's so disturbing to see the incitement to violence that is taking place on the part of McCain/Palin against Obama.

So many liberals think that we can just invite the "fundies" to the table, befriend them,and we'll all just be our own small thread in the tapestry. Problem is that they want the whole tapestry, and critical thinking doesn't enter into very much of their conversation. As I've said so often, it feels a little foolish, a little dirty, to "get down" and engage with people who will not engage in rational dialogue because they don't know how, and because they're suspicious of anyone who doesn't buy into their conditioning. You might actually have some influence on your wife's nieces, if they are at all curious about other views. The Power of One is something we all have to continue to honor. So ... good luck!

I know I may sound like a fanatic in the other direction because I spent many years suffering (intellectually) under the aegis of these people, before I found a Freudian who helped me out of it all. And then I had to find a Jungian who helped me get past Freud, and so it goes! :) My religion has been, for many years, reasonable skepticism against the certainty of so many "isms."

I just heard Thom Hartmann interviewing Stephen Larsen, author of a new book: "The Fundamentalist Mind"

http://www.stonemountaincenter.com/book-Fundamentalist-Mind.html


The Fundamentalist Mind:
How Polarized Thinking Imperils Us All

by Stephen Larsen

The Fundamentalist Mind from the publisher
We are all fundamentalists whether we acknowledge it or not. We were born into a world of myth and metaphor and have come to internalize the stories we were told as children as the literal interpretations of much greater and deeply symbolic lessons. When we fall into such patterns, according to author and psychotherapist Stephen Larsen, we lose all flexibility and freedom of thought. We become split by dualistic thinking—bad versus good; black versus white—and are weighted down by definitive, concretistic principles and behaviors that alienate us from one another. Dr. Larsen explains that we can avoid such pitfalls by identifying our “inner fundamentalist” and becoming more open-minded individuals.

In Fundamentalist Mind, Dr. Larsen follows suit with famed 20th century mythologist Joseph Campbell, citing both the creative potential and destructive power of myth. We can use myths as metaphors to guide us in our everyday lives. However, when we perceive myth as literal truth we cross a dangerous threshold. We see a severe example of this transgression with the religious extremists who feel justified in committing acts of violence in the name of God. By differentiating between reality and myth and continuing to question rigid thought patterns, Dr. Larsen says we encourage our own psycho-spiritual growth.

This book will help people of all religious, political, and social persuasions understand their inner fundamentalist. Dr. Larsen even provides exercises that help us identify negative thinking and teach us how to live more flexible, thoughtful lives. Liberal Christians, Buddhists, Gnostics, born-again pagans, as well as followers of transpersonal psychology and esoteric studies will all find much food for thought here, but this work is for anyone interested in becoming a fair and balanced person.



Nice talking with you!
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-08-08 10:19 PM
Response to Reply #41
47. I think you hit on the main difference between us on this issue
You've suffered a good deal from them and I haven't. That probably explains why you're more emotional about it than I am, even though intellectually we look at it very similarly I think.

It's always nice talking to you too, puebloknot.
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wolfgangmo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-08-08 10:00 AM
Response to Reply #12
45. Sadly a majority of the home schooling "movement" is knuckle draggers, ...
... flat earth advocates, religious kooks, and educational ludites. My wife and I checked out homeschooling and found that a majority of the people involved and a majority of the "premade" curriculum materials were all religiously based. Luckily we discovered the Waldorf system.

The nuts are not all of the homeschooling movement, but they are a majority. They breed like rabbits and they keep themselves isolated from "non- believers."

So yes, the cults are out there and they are pushing their edumacation on their spawn.

I think the best we can do is to make sure that any degrees they hold, any schooling they have is challenged and held up to contempt. Some states have done this well and made it illegal for employers at public institutions or those that accept funding from them cannot use these degrees to hire or promote anyone. Oregon and surprisingly Texas leads the nation.

Oregon has a great website that lists the ones they consider to be BS - http://www.osac.state.or.us/oda/unaccredited.aspx,
Here is a wiki link - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_unaccredited_institutions_of_higher_learning

On a national Congresswoman Betty McCollum - http://www.mccollum.house.gov/index.asp?Type=B_PR&SEC={6CF539D3-04A5-4FFA-87B8-BBBF9269F9D4}&DE={3785467D-AF22-40C0-9C4C-175C89F9B10E} - got a similar bill passed at the fed level. She wants to strengthen it in the future. She's doing good work. These bogus degree institutions are where a lot of these scoundrels and crooks on the right get there degrees and where their followers hide out.
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Deep13 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-06-08 02:48 PM
Response to Original message
7. I think you are pretty charitable towards religion and doctrine generally.
Speaking from a historian's point of view, one must weigh the works of charity and justice that some religion has sometimes inspired against the deliberate obstruction in the advancement of the human condition. For example, almost the entire moral (if it can be called that) justification for slavery and segregation was based on Christianity. The fact that some Christians (often in defiance of their churches) joined some secularists in opposing racism hardly makes up for that.
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-06-08 03:43 PM
Response to Reply #7
8. There is no question that Christianity, as well as perhaps all relgions, have been used
for good and for bad.

It is a tremendously difficult endeavor to figure out where the balance lies, especially because when people use religion to justify atrocities it is problematic IMO to attribute the atrocities to the religion. Would you impugn freedom and democracy because George Bush used those things as an excuse to invade Iraq? I wouldn't.

It wasn't just some Christians who took part in the abolitionist movement. Christian churches participated in an organized movement to abolish slavery, as well as other progressive movements. Here are some examples of the reasoning they used, taken from my link in the OP:

Abolitionists taught that as liberty was a gift from God it was therefore wrong to take someone else’s liberty from them by force or for someone to sell their liberty to someone else. According to John Wesley, ‘Liberty is the right of every human creature.’ The Exodus of the Israelites from Egypt was used to highlight God’s opposition to enforced slavery. They also quoted verses such as Proverbs 14: 31 (‘Whoever oppresses a poor man insults his Maker’) and Job 30: 25 (‘Did not I weep for him whose day was hard to show God’s compassion for the poor’), or Jesus’ words in Luke: ‘The Spirit of the Lord is upon me…to preach deliverance to the captives, to release the prisoners.’

Abolitionists repeatedly quoted the Golden Rule in Matt 7 v12 (‘Whatever you wish that others would do to you, do also to them, for this is the Law and the Prophets.’) They applied this to the British public by trying to get them to imagine what it would be like if they and their families were enslaved. Coupled with this, abolitionists worked hard to evangelise the slaves themselves as their masters often denied them the hearing of the gospel in case it would undermine their service.

The abolitionists appealed to people’s consciences by warning them of God’s judgement and wrath against sin, especially God’s anger at the exploitation of the poor. The Quaker Anthony Benezet warned ‘Will not the groans of this deeply afflicted and oppressed people reach heaven, and must not the inevitable consequence be pouring forth of the judgement of God upon their oppressors, must we not tremble to think what a load of guilt lies upon our Nation.’ The abolitionists emphasised to the people that ‘national sins produce national judgements’.

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Deep13 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-06-08 03:58 PM
Response to Reply #8
9. I respectfully disagree. nt
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puebloknot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-07-08 01:24 AM
Response to Reply #8
23. A main difficulty is how you define "Christianity" for the purpose of ...
... your article, or any such discussion.

The basic message of Jesus Christ is something that makes a liberal's heart sing. The problem is that the message has been shattered and distorted to such an extent that "Christian" has a multitude of meanings. Generically, "follower of Christ" will do it. But which version of Christianity, which of the holy books that make up the Bible, and in which iteration, which books that were thrown out for political reasons, does a "true Christian" embrace?

As many sincerely religious people have pointed out, they quietly follow their beliefs in love, peace, and tolerance without the ostentatious posturing of the gang of thugs who have taken over our government, while claiming the Christian high road. That, I think, is the basic thrust of your article.

Unfortunately, too many religious people are personally uneducated and unevolved, and may take the metaphorical references in the Bible as the driving force for violence, rather than the common good. The Founders were wise in their attempts to keep all religion out of government. I'd like to think there truly is a trend in the country away from the influence of the religious right, but I think they have just gone underground and are biding their time, once again, and are regrouping for another attempt at dominion over the country.

Call me paranoid. Read Jeff Sharlet.
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-07-08 06:03 PM
Response to Reply #23
40. I agree with what you say here
And you're right about what I meant to be the basic thrust of my article.

I will put Sharlet's book on my list. It sounds like it could be very enlightening.

Btw, I read "The Lost", at your suggestion. Very interesting book.
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puebloknot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-07-08 06:56 PM
Response to Reply #40
42. "The Lost" is heart rending. I'm sending a copy to my closest friend ...
... who is an Israeli, with the same kind of history described in that book. I'm not sure she'll be able to read it, but I've told her to put it in her library for her grandsons to read in due time.
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Bluenorthwest Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-07-08 07:34 AM
Response to Reply #8
28. It was 'some Christians'
That were abolitionists, others were full tilt slavers, slave owners, traders and promoters of slavery as a Christian institution.
You bear false witness. You are attempting to say that all Christians were abolitionists, and that is false as false can be.
I will repeat some Christians, starting with a tiny minority the grew into something larger, but still a Civl War away from unity.
Some Chritians. That is exactly the correct way to say it. Any other way is just steaming bull.
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-07-08 05:42 PM
Response to Reply #28
38. Bullshit
I did not say that all Christians were abolitionists. Where did you get that from?
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puebloknot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-07-08 07:05 PM
Response to Reply #28
43. Your critical reading skills seem to have deserted you.
TimeforChange is an honest, thoughtful man and an incredibly clear writer. He and I sometimes see things a bit differently, but I have never read anything of his that didn't positively reek of integrity.

Knowing him for a time now here at DU, I can offer advice to *always* give him the benefit of the doubt in case you sense something you don't agree with. He doesn't "steam bull." He wouldn't know how!
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-06-08 04:30 PM
Response to Reply #7
10. Correct... but you have to add genocide to your list ....
which includes slavery and segregation ...

And, of course, the original war on/oppression of women which continues on ...

and same for nature --"Manifest Destiny" and "Man's Domination Over Nature" ---
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markbark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-06-08 05:13 PM
Response to Original message
11. Voltaire Had It Pegged
When he said "Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities."

--MAB
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-07-08 05:40 PM
Response to Reply #11
37. Yes -- The one that comes to my mind is:
"If we don't fight them over there they'll follow us back home and we'll have to fight them here".
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MedleyMisty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-06-08 06:35 PM
Response to Original message
13. I will read the rest of the post and then comment again
but religion is not at all required for "Their objective was to create an entirely different kind of human being. All the sages preached a spirituality of empathy and compassion; they insisted that people must abandon their egotism and greed, their violence and unkindness… Nearly all of the Axial sages realized that you could not confine your benevolence to your own people: your concern must somehow extend to the entire world… If people behaved with kindness and generosity to their fellows, they could save the world."

That sounds like my philosophy. It doesn't require any sort of belief in dogma found in a book written by people with their own agendas thousands of years ago or a dude in the sky who watches everything you do and is especially obsessed with your sexual activity or denial of basic scientific facts in favor of primitive myths. It's not religion. It's morality, probably encoded into us by our genes.
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-06-08 06:44 PM
Response to Reply #13
14. I agree with most of that -- Did you see this part?
Edited on Mon Oct-06-08 06:45 PM by Time for change
"The point Armstrong strongly emphasizes is that the early expressions of religiosity during the Axial Age were not theocratic systems requiring belief... The arthritic catechisms and rituals that we now accept as religion had no place in the precepts of these sages... and the question of whether there was an omnipotent God was irrelevant to how one might lead a moral life. They asked their students to question and challenge and, as opposed to modern religion, to take nothing on faith…"
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ElboRuum Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-06-08 08:30 PM
Response to Original message
15. I understand the basic premise of what you say...
Edited on Mon Oct-06-08 08:32 PM by ElboRuum
...but I have to disagree with its accuracy.

If we can agree that religion does not equal faith and faith does not equal virtue and religion does not equal virtue, then we have to address them as separate concepts, sometimes found together, but functionally independent.

The purposes of these three concepts, in the realm of human experience are varied.

The purpose of faith is to express the concept of believing in "the higher order" or at least to suspend disbelief of what cannot necessarily be proven, and within a Christian framework, this higher order is God and He determines what is virtuous. So, it would seem, at least within the Christian framework, that faith should beget some amount of virtue, even if sometimes it doesn't. However, it is quite valid say that virtue can exist in the absence of faith so long as there is a framework of what is moral, what isn't moral, and what is questionably moral. Religion is often found in the presence of faith, but faith does not require its presence either, if one can have a relationship with the higher order without the stricture of membership within a religion, then it too must be independent.

Virtue's purpose is to serve as the conduit for the positive expression of morality within an accepted framework. Virtue, therefore, is dependent, not upon any faith, or religion, but rather the framework in which it is expressed. It does not need faith, although faiths often act as the framework in which virtue is measured, and it does not need religion, although religions tend to employ virtue as tenets. But considering that any framework, so long as it is an accepted one, can define virtue, and that acceptance does neither require faith in a higher order, nor require a religious body as those who accept, one could easily turn virtue into sin and vice versa by simply inverting the "ruleset" and it would still be called virtue, even if it flies directly in the face of a particular faith or religion.

What I'm getting at, and where I disagree, is the purpose of religion. History has shown that the purpose of religion is generally threefold:

1. Establish faith through some sort of dogma which preys upon the natural human fear of things that we can't possibly know. These things include the presence of a higher order, mortality, and what happens to who we are when we die. Whereas philosophical musings may debate these sorts of things to no possible cogent, accepted end, religion must codify them and treat them as fact such that the second purpose may be achieved.

2. Establish a methodology of allaying these fears by providing a rigorous recipe, a roadmap if you like, to please the higher order. Perhaps it's an offering at an altar, a symbolic ritual, or even a tithe to the upper echelons of the religious order. This is an order which must evolve regardless of the religion's origins, because in almost every case, religions set themselves up as not only the chosen channel for the expression of the higher order, the unknowable, to those that believe, but also as the sole conduit of actions of redemption or salvation from the believer to the higher order. In short, to know "god(s)" and hedge your bets against an ignominious end, you have to go through them.

3. Utilize the "chosen" status of religion to increase the numbers of their membership, resulting in both political power and a source of physical force to use that power. Whether it be Torquemada torturing Jews into conversion, the Crusades to keep the Holy Land for Christianity, whatever, religion, when it has cause to flex its muscle for the purposes of conscription to its ranks and the furtherance of its reach seems to always choose the exercise of power over peaceful coexistence.

Now granted, I am being purposefully cynical about its origins, but religions always seem to evolve in the same manner. Whether they rise from the persecution of people, like Christianity and Judaism, or by other means, they start humble and small, acquire their numbers, become a dominant force, and then the atrocities begin. And these atrocities are massive, occasionally genocidal, and philosophically perverse. But because religion uses faith to establish a framework of virtue that serves its own sense of morality, what is philosophically perverse can be shoehorned into a framework of virtue because only the faithful must accept that which is virtuous, which, of course, they must do as their religious order dictates this on basis of tenets of faith.

Once all of this is set up, and it may take a thousand years to do, it becomes a simple thing to utilize the framework of religion to encourage and justify all manner of atrocious acts. The priest could say that God wants you to go and bonk that guy over there on the head because he's another religion, and God hates that religion because it isn't the chosen religion. Within the framework of virtue of at least the Christian religion for example, going against the word of God is a definite faux pas, and defiance of the arbiters of the word, whether it be the minister, the preacher, or the priest, is often portrayed as defying God by proxy. So the faithful get their bonking sticks and go over and clot the guy on the head, in front of his wife and kids if that's the situation, and feel not only perfectly justified, but virtuous in doing so.

Where am I going with this?

Religion, whatever it's origins, assumes the purpose of creating a mob. It does this to secure political power for a few. It makes it attractive by creating a protected class of its adherents, providing social power for the many. The power is, as always, to gain more power, to establish rulership, to reward those who fall in line behind the rulership and to punish those that don't, using the tools of faith and virtue to establish its own dominion. The aristocracies of Europe put a fine point on this by royalty through divinity, and the Egyptians similarly established a divine right of kings, or Pharaohs in their case. Through the thousands of years this idea of rulership through the sanctification of "chosen" persons has spread throughout the civilizations, missing a few here and there along the way, but the major empires have ALL utilized the tenets of their religion to not only justify their authority, but as a mandate to expand their dominion through conquest.

And now here we are, in 2008. All of the empires have vanished, and only the core nations which began them largely remain. England gave back most of its colonies, Japan gave up its imperial conquest of Asia, The Soviet Union was born, had its own empire, and vanished almost as quickly as it had appeared. America found the Pacific Ocean, fulfilling its manifest destiny, it's own version of empire by divine right.

You would think that the concept of "divine empire" would have worn thin on the later generations, and it largely has. But what do we see? What brings this conversation back to the fore? Religion has manifested a form of philosophical imperialism within the nation and a form of xenophobia without.

So when one points out the good in religion, I am very skeptical. I've seen the good in faith. I've seen the belief in a higher order resurrect the shambles of people's lives when they've run themselves down and have nowhere left to turn. I've seen the good in virtue, with people who opt to become firemen in their spare time, people who help the old lady carry in her groceries just because they happened by at the time, people of all kinds doing all sorts of random acts of kindness. Maybe they did get this from the tenets of their own religion. But I ask, if they'd hang up their religion today, stop going to church, stop paying the tithes, stop observing the observances, would they also hang up their faith and their virtue as well? I'd have a hard time disbelieving that they would not.

So how much good is really ascribed to faith? How much good is the result of virtue? And when that accounting is complete, how much is really left over for religion except to provide a sense of community among people who believe in the same faith and have the same sense of virtue?

Did faith start wars? Did virtue attempt the extermination of entire memberships of other religions? No, that was the exclusive providence of religion abetted by the mobs it creates. When I look at the good vs. bad where religion is concerned, bad wins by a landslide from a historical perspective. The question is, then, can religion be a source of good? Yes. Is religion inherently evil? No. But I question how Jesus Christ, by all accounts a pacifist, a mender of fences, and the world's most well known, oft quoted advocate of brotherhood amongst all people, could endorse the religions that have spawned in the wake of his life when they've been so culpable in promoting the direct opposite of that message. Would he say religion's good moments outweigh their bad?
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-06-08 10:49 PM
Response to Reply #15
18. It is possible that most of our disagreement may be semantics
I agree with you that religion, faith, and virtue are different entities. I also agree that virtue exists in the absence of religion. I am barely "religious" myself, though I don't think that impinges on my capability of being virtuous.

If you look at what Karen Armstrong explains as the origins of our religious traditions, what is most striking to me is that that concept of religion differs a great deal from most peoples' concepts of religion today. Especially, consider this part:

The point Armstrong strongly emphasizes is that the early expressions of religiosity during the Axial Age were not theocratic systems requiring belief... The arthritic catechisms and rituals that we now accept as religion had no place in the precepts of these sages... and the question of whether there was an omnipotent God was irrelevant to how one might lead a moral life. They asked their students to question and challenge and, as opposed to modern religion, to take nothing on faith…

You make the point, which I have heard many times, and which I believe is correct, that religion has historically been shown to be used to keep people in line, control them, and get them to do what the leaders want them to do. The result has often been war, persecution, and genocide. That is certainly correct. We in the United States today get to see that process real close up, what with the alliance between the Religious Right and the Republican Party today.

What that means to me is that, what Karen Armstrong describes as the best ideals of religion have been corrupted over time, so that much of what today goes by the same name no longer in reality reflects the original princples. You made the point that Jesus would not endorse most of what became of the Christian religion. I absolutely agree, and that is one of my main points.

One could say something very similar about our Declaration of Independence, which in my opinion is one of the greatest and most important documents ever written. At the time, the idea that all people have an inalienable right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness was tremendously radical, and that helped set the stage for a lot of good things, such as the abolition of slavery.

Today, our "super-patriots" use the idea of the United States of America, which initially was represented by our Declaration of Independence, to justify actions that are in great conflict with that document. To them, patriotism means demanding that the rest of the world act in our interests, lest we force them to do so, even if that means making war on them. That in no way means that the original idea for our country was wrong. Rather, it's been corrupted, so that today it is barely recognizable among those who would use our military might to make the rest of the world subservient to us.
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immoderate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-07-08 11:54 AM
Response to Reply #15
33. Religion is a control mechanism. And I think that's what you're saying.
Once people are under control, they can be directed for good or bad purpose. It shortcuts use of reason behind their actions.

--IMM
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hfojvt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-06-08 09:32 PM
Response to Original message
17. even a small number of replies here
show that this
"Liberals have no interest whatsoever in destroying Christianity."

is not true of all liberals.
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-07-08 07:21 AM
Response to Reply #17
27. I think that many of us have different definitions for what religion is
And that accounts for many of the differences of opinion here.

I think we can all agree that religion has resulted in good things and bad things. We differ in where the balance lies, but I think we can agree that it would be wise to encourage the good and discourage the bad parts.

All of us here believe that genocide is a bad thing, and that it is important to prevent it. How that can be done is a very complex issue. But I don't think that the answer is to legally prohibit the teaching of religion.
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wolfgangmo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-08-08 10:09 AM
Response to Reply #17
46. Is Christianity so weak ...
... that what a few blog posters have said about it will have any lasting effect?
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-06-08 11:19 PM
Response to Original message
19. Certainly, patriarchy's "one-god" religion --was a war on women which continues --
Edited on Mon Oct-06-08 11:55 PM by defendandprotect
"Heretics" who supported a non-violent Jesus were killed and the Bible written to cement
patriarchy and to create a new "warrior god."

The harm done by organized patriarchal religion and its "one/anti-female god"
is incalculable -- including its introduction of new precedents of TORTURE in the
Crusades. Repeatedly, the cross has been introduced by the sword.

And that's still true at this moment as Bush recites his "god's" blessing on his
crusades in Afghanistan & Iraq.

Re the abolitionists, granted we will always find some sanity inside of insane systems,
but keep in mind Papal Bulls set free the massacre of native Americans
and the attempt to enslave them -- as well as enslavement of Africans in America.
And did not the Vatican give financial support to the South during the Civil War ...?

W has also made a point of displaying his religion --
the dreaded double dose/born again kind which produced an insanity wherein
he tells us he spoke with "god" about attacking other nations and that
"god" was all for it--!!
Yet, no where do we see open questioning of his insanity nor his warrior "god."

There is no such thing as organized patriarchal religion "at its best."
It is born and bred in male hatred, ignorance and violence.
Nor has any age of Enlightenment ever required organized patriarchal religion to
inspire it -- rather, just the reverse.

Pope John XXIII during the 1960's -- and he was beloved throughout the world --
worked to put a humane and compassionate face on Catholicism in Vatican II;
to make the church a democracy.
After his sad death and the questionable deaths of a few of the other enlightened popes who
succeeded him, the right wing was in full control of the Vatican and overturning Vatican II.

The current pope is turning the church towards Evangelicalism in a more feverish
marchng backwards for Catholicism.

"Jesus" is a myth from a long line of mythical "gods ...
all worsening as they became "one-god's."


























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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-07-08 05:36 PM
Response to Reply #19
36. I just want to clarify in case it wasn't clear:
My post wasn't about patriarchy's one-god religion. It was more about how some good ideas got hijacked and turned into something like that.

What do you mean by Jesus was a myth? Have you read some of the historical accounts of Jesus' life? Like this one: "The Historical Jesus: The Life of a Mediteranean Jewish Peasant"

http://www.amazon.com/Historical-Jesus-Mediterranean-Jewish-Peasant/dp/0060616296
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jpgray Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-07-08 01:16 AM
Response to Original message
22. The nasty truth is: if it weren't religion, it would be something else.
Edited on Tue Oct-07-08 01:26 AM by jpgray
Solid post, but the general problem we're really looking at is ideology used as a means of authoritarian control via social solidarity. The worst abuses you outline are possible with any such ideology, be it nationalism, racism, communism, etc. This behavior does not require religion, although religion is a particularly suitable vehicle for it.

The telling evidence of abuse in religion's case is, for example, that most people who identify as devoutly evangelical do not particularly follow the morality of Scripture. They follow the morality of their peers and leaders who identify as devoutly evangelical. This allows for some aspects of Scripture to be ignored whilst others are emphasized. The end result is an easily guided mass of people that submits its liberty of reasoning to the whims of its leaders. Cultural identification and social solidarity take precedence over reasoning, even in terms of following what the Bible actually teaches. Doctrinal emphasis of one Biblical teaching over the other is therefore not disputed or rationally debated within the group. Religion becomes simply the vehicle, not the explicit cause or major motivator.

So again I think all the major old tribal identifiers are potential vehicles of this despicable behavior. Religion just happens to be the ready-at-hand and pervasive vehicle of tribalism in this country. Its focus on "faith" does present a unique opportunity for control, but beyond that it's not particularly unique.
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-07-08 05:17 PM
Response to Reply #22
34. Yes, I pretty much agree with all of that.
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kimmylavin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-07-08 01:46 AM
Response to Original message
24. K&R to read after work!
Thanks for posting!
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OakCliffDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-07-08 05:16 AM
Response to Original message
25. Kick
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Bernardo de La Paz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-07-08 11:33 AM
Response to Original message
31. I wish there were more carefully written well reasoned essays like this one on DU. . nt
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yellowdogintexas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-07-08 11:39 AM
Response to Original message
32. great post, I am bookmarking it. Good quotes all around, esp Karen Armstrong
who by the way is a former Catholic nun.

I love her stuff.

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L0oniX Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-08-08 09:24 AM
Response to Original message
44. K & R ...and Bill Moyers rocks.
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