I posted this in another area, but I need DU help...

[ceejdre82]

I would like to respond to an Open Forum in my local newspaper. The WOMAN goes on and on how polititians that are christian should be ashamed of themselves for 'supporting abortion'...and she goes on about the Bible and the Ten Commmandments...you know the same old song and dance. I have a few ideas and all, but I would like some ideas and pointers from DU.

[demmiblue]

1. This WOMAN thinks you should think for yourself.

Blah, blah blah.

:hi:

[alsame]

2. You should find the transcript of Biden's last appearance on

Meet The Press (I think it was early Sept.). He gave a wonderful response about his own feelings as a Catholic but that when governing a country like ours, with different religious beliefs, you have to allow for all points of view. He was much more eloquent than my paraphrasing and it was a response that most reasonable people would accept, even if they personally oppose choice.

[Tangerine LaBamba]

3. Help her clean up her language first.

Then you can help her with her concepts.

Politicians take an oath to uphold the laws of these United States. Roe v. Wade is one of those laws, and it's not "pro-abortion," it's "pro-choice." A big difference there, as you can explain to her.

Also, since our Constitution provides very nicely for the separation of Church and State, and the freedom of religion as well as the freedom FROM religion, she should be instructed that anyone seeking public office doesn't have to give up his religious beliefs, but he might take a lesson from a fine Governor, the man in Virginia, Tim Kaine, who is a devout Catholic, but who upholds and defends Roe v. Wade because it is the law of the land, and his personal beliefs do not, must not, enter into it.

If she's not in favor of abortions, advise her that she doesn't have to have one.

But, understand before you start, that you'll get nowhere with this woman, you'll make not a whit of difference in how she thinks and what she believes. She's set in stone, so, if you want to take place in this exercise, be very clear that all you're doing is playing with your food.

[LiberalHeart]

5. Here's what I struggle with...

First, let me say I'm entirely pro-choice. But what if I really, honestly, truly believed that abortion is murder. How could I see abortion as a matter of choice, and not take action to eliminate it? I can't imagine that -- if I were4 to see someone about to murder another person -- I'd dismiss it and think, "Well, that's his choice." Nor could I look at it as a matter of settled law. I wouldn't be able to understand how there can be a law permitting murder. I don't think the group opposing abortion is made up primarily of those who do believe abortion is murder, but I think there are some who honestly do believe that -- and I can't help but be sympathetic with the position they find themselves in. If I believed that abortion is murder, I'd probably be pretty difficult to control in what I might do stop what I'd see as horrendous criminal acts. Thus, I don't know how your thoughts presented above would mean squat to someone who's of the murder mindset.

[Tangerine LaBamba]

6. I agree

But my suggestions were the product of rational thinking. If someone believes a fetus is a human being, they're irrational, but they're certainly allowed to be irrational.............. until their beliefs get in the way of our country's laws.

Then, they have to back off, because their beliefs take a back seat to the promulgated guidelines in Roe v. Wade.

But, since they're already nuts, there'd be no talking to them. They just have to be contained and if they do harm in their fervent desire to "preserve life," they must be punished.

We are a nation of laws, not of individual beliefs.

[LiberalHeart]

7. The problem is, I doubt that someone who holds that view sees it as an opinion.

I'm guessing it is seen as fact.

Years ago an abortion opponent tried to kill a friend of mine when he showed up to arrest her for burning clinics. I think, had she been successful, she would have viewed it as administering the death penalty to a vicious killer.

Crazy? Sure. But I do think it'd be pure hell to be of that mindset and see what you consider to be daily murders. It makes me understand how/why people go off the deep end on this issue.

[Tangerine LaBamba]

8. This is where you and I differ

I suspect that all of life is pure hell for someone as deranged as the person who tried to kill your friend. They don't see it as an opinion, I agree - they see it as absolute truth. Their reality is the only one that counts. And that makes living in a participatory democracy kind of difficult.

You're nicer than I am. I have no sympathy for those who are that deranged. They do harm. I want them taken care of and cared for, but I do not want them out there hurting others.

[LiberalHeart]

11. We don't differ regarding not wanting them out there hurting others.

The woman I mentioned above, the one who tried to kill my friend, set fire to an abortion clinic owned by another friend. I had no sympathy for any of what she did; only for what is apparently for her a genuine matter of morality. Having said that, I'd have no trouble sending her to prison for a very long time. She did get sent away, but I can't recall for how long.

[Tangerine LaBamba]

13. You're mistaking morality, I think,

for a pathology that a mental health practitioner might possibly diagnose as a control issue with attending sexual dysfunction.

[LiberalHeart]

14. Not really. I'm thinking of self-defined morality, and I understand that it can be pathological.

A moment ago I was curious enough about this woman to see how much time she served. It was a 10-year-sentence, but she served only 8 years. I came across something that her judge said at sentencing. He said she was morally correct, but she had broken the law.

[Tangerine LaBamba]

15. That judge was 'way out of line

Morality is none of his business when he's sentencing someone. I guess we know what HE think of Roe v. Wade.

Self-defined morality, as opposed to that which is taught? Either way, when taken to extremes like this woman of whom you write, it's pathological, and, ultimately, has more to do with mental illness than morality.

[LiberalHeart]

16. I'm not arguing your point re morality v. mental illness. Just saying....

...that SHE would argue the point with you for what she would no doubt think are good, solid reasons.

I agree that the judge was out of line. It surprised me to see that statement because I sat through the trial and I don't recall his making the remark. Maybe I wasn't there for the sentencing. Can't remember. It's been many years (almost 20, I think).

[ceejdre82]

18. isn't crazy...

how they think abortion is murder...but yet agree with the death penalty?...by 'they'. I mean the radically religious

[ceejdre82]

17. exactly what i wanted to do....

I'm not trying to change her mind...because I know I won't....but I want to get across that God does not make the laws of our land...and if the church had a part in doing so, they should pay taxes

[Tandalayo_Scheisskopf]

4. That woman is delusional.

She is impressing her own belief system on others and wrapping it in mystical thought. That is not the sign of a healthy mind.

[EFerrari]

9. I read that the abortion rate goes down in places where

contraception is available and abortion is accessible. So, if this woman wants more abortions, she's going about it in the right way.

She should be ashamed of herself for trying to restrict the free will her God gave us.

[asdjrocky]

10. Honestly-

Christianity comes down to one thing. Matthew 25. The bible says nothing specific about abortion that I know of, but it does say a lot about helping the poor. It says so much in fact, that there is a passage that says you should give all of your worldly possessions to the poor.

Ask her if she's done that yet.

[chowder66]

12. Links.....

http://www.catholicsforobama.blogspot.com/

also listed are additional links on that site such as....http://www.prolifeproobama.com/

[ColbertWatcher]

19. Kick and rec for more DU help! n/t