My husband i make $100k COMBINED

[Sebass1271]

$100K combined. We can't afford health insurance benefits. Our employers don't offer it because they say "it is not the law" so they don't. We tried to obtain individual health care insurance but it was too expensive. All insurance companies quoted us $800.00 or more per month. Obviously we can't afford this amount when you have mortgage payments, insurance, car payments and insurance, food, gas, electricity bills and some savings at the end of the month. We don't splurge, we live within our means. So Obama obviously is talking to US. We also tried to obtain insurance benefits for our six year son and applied to Florida's kid care.. well, my little one was denied because for them, my husband and I make too much money. How can that be? We don't make too much money. We are barely surviving!!..

This is so FRUSTRTING!!!...

WE are not looking for free insurance, we want AFFORDABLE insurance. I posted my family situation in Politico.com and this conservative replied to my post:
_________________________________________________________
"Obama stated that he would not raise taxes on people earning less than $250,000. However, he voted in the Senate to let the Bush tax cuts expire.

Taking away the Bush tax cuts is no different than RAISING your taxes. It will not just raise the taxes of those earning over $250,000 it will be for EVERY American--100% across the board. Additional payroll deductions will be used to pay for Obama's comprehensive health care plan.

The family making $100,000? There ain't no such thing as a free lunch. You make too much to be benefited by Obama's plan. In your income bracket, you will not be any better off than buying private health care insurance now. This isn't magic. Please don't be fooled by political promises that sound too good to be true. They are just that, too good to be true, but it will probably get him elected."
___________________________________________________

Any help to reply to this creep?? I know Obama will not raise our taxes. But this is a mantra I hear all the time from these people!!!.

[yardwork]

1. Send it to Obama's campaign. There is a button on his website.

You will receive a personal response. Then you can post the response.

[Sebass1271]

4. WHERE? I would love to send it to them..

can i have that address please??/

Thanks!!

[Sebass1271]

8. got it. never mind.

[Kukesa]

135. Send it to [e-mail] n/t

[CoffeeCat]

2. I know many, many people...

making around 100,000, and they are struggling--and they have health insurance.

I know a couple who live near us. They are both pharmacists, and they
are struggling.

The US economy is like a mutant version of a normal economy.

[OneGrassRoot]

5. My SO and I were talking about health insurance last night....

It used to be that having health insurance was a blessed relief and comfort; nowadays, having health insurance is most certainly not the benefit it used to be. Many people WITH insurance are not getting care and/or having to file bankruptcy and/or choose between medicine or food/utilities because the cost of healthcare and lack of applicable coverage are almost criminal.

I haven't had health insurance for nearly eight years now. One medical incident led to bankruptcy. It's not hard to see how this happens.

The good thing about no health coverage is that preventive measures are the focus...HEALTH and well-being are the focus simply out of necessity. But it's a crime that people who need care can't get it because of money, or they lose everything else as a result of getting the much-needed care.

The Republicans (politicians and civilians) who decry universal care or other "social" benefits should forego their health coverage through Congress, any disability income he/she may be receiving, and refuse Social Security benefits since these fall under the same type of umbrella they claim are harmful.

[n2doc]

3. Unfortunately, there is a lot of that around

100K ain't what it used to be, and especially if you live in a more expensive area.

You won't change a RW'ers crap "ideas " either. They have their "facts" and reality won't change anything. The old adage about wrestling with a pig applies here.

Here's hoping Obama's plan benefits everyone.

[Ashy Larry]

6. Obama is proposing that we let the Bush tax cuts expire

but only the tax cuts that apply to those who make more than $250,000. Under Obama's plan, you would get a tax cut.

[JHB]

7. He's baiting and switching...

Obama stated that he would not raise taxes on people earning less than $250,000. However, he voted in the Senate to let the Bush tax cuts expire

He's equating Obama's tax plan in his presidential bid with a Senate vote to eliminate the Bush tax cuts.

[pnutbutr]

9. no sympathy here

Family of four. Combined income of just under $50,000. I pay $543 a month on health insurance through my company(that's my portion of the cost), pay mortgage on a 4 bedroom single family home, own 2 cars outright(save up and buy used) and a motorcycle. Still have some left over for savings and family activities like vacations, soccer etc... Pay as I go cell phone for emergencies only, no cable or satellite TV(just rooftop antenna) and dialup internet. Some extra would be nice but excuse me if I have no sympathy for your plight.

[rfranklin]

20. Wouldn't you like to have health insurance that covers you....

no matter what job you have? I certainly would.

[rfranklin]

21. Wouldn't you like to have health insurance that covers you....

no matter what job you have? I certainly would.

[nosillies]

28. Your cost-cutting suggestions are helpful, but...

the dash of self-righteousness is quite off-putting.

OP lives in an incredibly expensive part of the country. The OP may have ridiculous transportation costs because she is forced to drive long distances for work. Perhaps high-speed internet is a necessity for job purposes -- it is for mine. Perhaps she's already cut out satellite.

Point is, you don't know. Presuming to have the authority to judge someone without knowing jack about them? How very repug of you.

I, too, am most likely in a much worse financial situation than the OP. And I might choose to spend differently than she does. But I have sympathy for anyone who is suffering because of the disastrous state of healthcare in our nation.

[pnutbutr]

31. sorry

but I too live in one of the most expensive places in the nation. I drive 100 miles daily to and from work. If your work requires high speed internet at your home then you have a great case to get them to pay for it.

I judged based on the information provided and my experience with half the income. Either the OP just plain sucks with money and is buying wants all over the place, has some undisclosed expenses, or has purchased in excess of their ability(home/car). It's just difficult to imagine someone struggling while making twice my household income unless they have had some part in creating the financial problem they are having. The OP's problem is not healthcare as far as I can tell, it's finances.

Still no sympathy at this point. That could change if some uncontrollable circumstances are revealed to be the cause of the financial hardship.

[WhollyHeretic]

40. The numbers you are claiming don't pass the smell test to me

If you really live in one of the most expensive parts of the country with a mortgage on a 4 bedroom home, driving that much and paying that much for insurance you couldn't afford it. Unless you house is mostly paid off and you have a really low mortgage payment because of it. that is not what most families have.

[pnutbutr]

60. cool hansel

I also have 8 acres of land. Living cheap is easy if you are willing to give up convenience and focus on efficiency, conservation and self sustainability. House is nowhere near paid off and mortgage is over 50% of our income per month. I live in an area unaffected by the rash of foreclosures, there were two in the entire county last year. The county is a stable area with homes ranging in price from about $200k up to $60+million. Basically, I work hard and avoid excess. It has allowed me to purchase my dream home before age 30. No, it's not an excessive mcmansion. It's a victorian era house, about 2000 sq. ft.

[PassingFair]

66. So, your mortgage takes $25,000, your health care is another $7,000...

That leaves you $18,000, before or after taxes?

You must be spending a small fortune on
gasoline to commute to your job, 100
mile away, both ways...

I smell a rat.

And NOT a Democ(rat).

[pnutbutr]

72. ah hahahahaha

That rat line was funny. :rofl:

Motorcycles get good mileage, especially small ones, so does my rain and winter commuter car. All used all old, low insurance, well maintained. Local food, have a garden and hunt on occasion to keep grocery costs down.

You guys want to keep going with this?

[PassingFair]

73. Not really...."you guys" are boring. n/t

[hfojvt]

77. he/she said mortgage takes half of income "every month"

that is half of after-tax income, not of gross income.

$50,000 a year is over $4,000 per month. Tax out 8% for FICA and another $500 for state and local taxes. That leaves $3,180 per month. If mortgage payment is half of that, it would be $1,500 per month. For a $300,000 house with a thirty year fixed mortgage at 6% the payment would be $910 a month, which leaves $600 a month for taxes and insurance. With $500 a month for insurance that leaves almost $1000 a month for other expenses. So which part of it does not add up?

Myself, I make $14,000 a year and pay about $3,000 a year for insurance, so I am not so sympathetic to the OP either. Then again, my $35,000 house is completely paid for.

[PassingFair]

79. That leaves him $1,000 a month to heat/cool his "4 bedroom house"

buy his groceries, gasoline and telephone, etc.

He surely isn't buying clothes for growing children,
or saving anything for their college years.

I don't believe a word this guy/gal types.

[hfojvt]

83. heating expenses are perhaps not that high in Virginia

I don't see any immediate reason to believe a family of four is hurting at $50,000 a year either.

[PassingFair]

85. They are if they are paying health care out of pocket.

Here in Michigan, our gas and electric bills
are almost $4,000 a year alone.

I'm not wasting any more time arguing over
the imaginary lifestyle of this obvious troll.

[pnutbutr]

93. heating

I have a wood stove to heat the whole house. Plenty of wood available on my property. Cutting it is a pain and so is getting up early to light it every morning but it keeps my monthly power bill in the winter below $50 a month. I'm trying to work in a wind and or solar system in the next couple years.

Second hand clothing from childrens consignment sales and from friends and family with older children help. Saving are small but exist and hopefully I will be able to increase them in the near future with some self schooling and certification I am working on to increase my salary or find a better job.

You don't have to believe me. I don't care.

[buckettgirl]

163. I'm with you

You do some things how I would like to do them. Gardening, hunting, using your own firewood, you're teaching your children that you don't have to have the newest and best of everything too. That is good, and I think more people need to do that.

I have no children... just my husband and myself, with a gross household income just at $60,000/yr. Thats not so bad, but it took alot of budgeting and prioritizing to realize that we weren't doing too bad.
We get health insurance through my husband's job, and it costs us about $80/pay period - roughly $2000 per year, its not unaffordable or out of our reach, but it is a priority - we have always had health insurance, even when we were poor and could have used to money to pay bills.
The problem for us is that we had an ER visit in June - my husband sliced his finger open when a piece of wood kicked back on his table saw. I am an RN, but this was not something I could fix or else I would have. For 2 shots of lidocaine, 3 stitches, a tetanus shot, and partial removal of thumbnail, it cost us $658 out of pocket, insurance paid $75. All that paid into insurance, and it didn't cover us when we needed it the most.
I only wish we grossed 100K. . . then I could have that bill paid off next month.
Also, somethings other posters have asked about being before or after tax expenses... I'm betting that with a family of 4 on 50k/yr, taxes aren't your worry, and that you might even get something from the earned income credit. I believe its doable, it just depends if you want to make it work or not.

I'm not lacking in compassion for the original poster, I know it can be hard to make sure all the priorities are covered. But, if they can't afford health insurance because they bought too much house or too much car, then it definitely would be time to rethink the situation. Also, if neither employer offers health insurance, then I, personally, would be looking for another employer - however, some people don't have that option.

[lumberjack_jeff]

103. Family of five here.

Gas: 350/month (two cars, 50 mile round trip commute)
Groceries: 550/month (we could economize more)
Electricity: 100/month (4 bedroom house)
phone/internet: 50/month
Garbage: $15/month

That's $1065. It can be done. I believe him/her.

Most people live like this. The main drawback of a high income is not knowing how much one spends.

[WhollyHeretic]

67. Your numbers are bullshit then

You said you make under $50,000 a year. Let's call that $49,000 then. I'm not sure about the taxes there but your yearly take home should be about $38,300. You say you pay more than half your monthly take home for your mortgage. Just over half would be around $1,700 a month. You said you drive 100 miles to and from work. That's $5000 a year just for commuting nevermind the other car and motorcycle. Let's say $6,000 for gas. Three vehicles around here would be well over $1000 for insurance but we'll just set that number at $1,000 for you. Food and other essentials is at least $100 a week which adds up to $5,200 a year. We'll forget about any heating or cooling. Electricity for a family of 4 in a 4 bedroom house is ~$100 a month if you watch what you use. That's $1,200 a year. Another $300 a year for telephone. The numbers you provided for health insurance added up to $6,516 a year.

That all adds up to $40,616 (more than the take home of someone making $49,000) without all the other stuff a family entails. Unless your costs are lower which means you do not live in a very expensive part of the country which shoots your argument to shit. The numbers I gave (besides all the ones you provided) are even less expensive than it would be here. So like I said something about your numbers doesn't add up.

[hfojvt]

81. there are a couple other possibilities

first, health insurance comes out of my check, so it's neither considered taxable income nor monthly income.

Second, the taxes for a family of four are not that high. I just dug out a 1040A from 2005 for calculation purposes. $10,000 for a standard deduction (although since he/she has a mortgage they might be itemizing too) $12,800 for four exemptions. Taxable income is $27,200. Tax is $3,711. Minus $1,000 for each child, leaves a total tax bill of $1711. Add that to FICA taxes of $3,825 and that makes a federal tax bill of $5,536. In Kansas, taxable income would be $35,000 making a tax bill of $1787. Total tax bill is only $7,323. Making take-home pay $4,000 higher than you estimated. I am perhaps over-estimating taxes too, since there are itemized deductions and credits for child-care expenses that can be taken at the state and federal level.

[WhollyHeretic]

84. But if the take home is higher than I figured then so is the mortgage payment

since the poster said that their mortgage payment was more than half their income. So I would have underestimated the mortgage payment if I had also underestimated the take home. If you add $4000 then you have to take out more than $2000 of that for the mortgage numbers.

[hfojvt]

86. the insurance cost might not be part of take home

My own paycheck has - gross pay $685.44 less 1) retirement 27.42, 2) health 128.86, 3) dental - 6.93, 4) fica - 34.08, 5) medicare - 7.97 6) federal taxes - 15.11 (all of which will be refunded), 7) state taxes - 9.14 for take home of $455.93

and sometimes taxes are taken out (thus reducing take home pay) only to be refunded the next year. The Feds have taken $300 out of my income that they will have to give back in February.

This is all speculative, but from my POV I don't see an obvious reason to doubt that a family at $50,000 is doing okay.

[Realityhack]

98. Look they may or may not be doing funny math. But...

I think he/she is playing a bit of a word game.

The poster said "8 acres of land" "in one of the most expensive places in the nation".
On $50K/year.

Now they might mean it is a cheap part of an expensive state or something... but I don't think you could afford 8 acres in any area I would call 'one of the most expensive in the nation' on that income.

So IMO it is at least misleading.

[lumberjack_jeff]

107. I live about 75 miles from Seattle.

Undeveloped property here is worth about $15k/acre. I have a 5 acre quiet rural wooded parcel with well, septic, power and a 3br 2 ba mobile for sale right now for $175k.

20 miles from here it would be worth $25k/acre. 35 miles from here; $40k/acre. 60 miles from here... $80k/acre? More?

My house payment is about $1100 including property tax and insurance. We live comfortably on significantly less than $50k.

Those who don't think it can be done are those who have never needed to.

[Realityhack]

110. As I said. A less expensive part of an expensive area.

Your neighborhood is NOT one of the most expensive places in the country to live.

Which is why I said I thought it might just be misleading wording not funny math. Saying that that area 'is one of the most expensive in the country' would be misleading IMO.

[lumberjack_jeff]

114. Is it misleading to say that Western Washington is an expensive place?

I'd rather not commute to Seattle from here, though. 5 hours daily commute would have major quality of life ramifications.

[pnutbutr]

122. old house

It's a victorian era house that needs tons of work. Structure is solid but it needs work that I am doing slowly myself when I can afford the supplies. I also get creative and recycle as much as possible. I rebuilt my shed as a pole barn using logs from trees I cut on the property and the studs taken out of the basement when I stripped it to take care of a water leak and insulate. I would have liked to use straw bales instead of the studs but the studs were free. I reused the good pieces of siding from the old shed on the new one as well as the the tin roofing that needed a little bit of patching and a new coat of paint.

Acreage when I bought was relatively inexpensive and the house was old and run down. With lots of new development in the nearby area most people were buying new construction so this house was on the market longer than it should have been and I was able to get a great deal. Not many people will voluntarily buy a house with no central heating and air. I sacrificed convenience for what is a high quality home although at the moment not as nice looking as new ones nearby and needs work. Since I can do the work myself it was a pretty easy choice to buy my dream home and make it something extra special in the coming years.

[Realityhack]

153. I think we are using different definitions.

I would not call the location one of the most expensive in the country if that much land is available at that price. You of course may be using a different definition that focuses on a larger area, cost of food, etc.

As I said. In any area that I would call one of the most expensive in the country the house on the plot being old would hardly matter in terms of the cost for 8 acres being prohibitive at that income level.

Obviously I am glad you have found a place you like and are able to afford it by cutting other expenses. I think we just differ on how we are using that particular phrase.

[galileoreloaded]

131. Huh??? At 50, 000 a year, with two kids, and a home, there are no taxes...

practically. Probably qualifies for EITC, if OP is smart. 7% SS and 1.5% Medicare. This is possible, quite possible, if you enact all the low footprint actions OP is taking.

[WhollyHeretic]

138. Uh... low footprint?

Spending more than 50% of their income on the mortgage? Driving 100 miles each way to work? Again if I underestimated the take home then I also underestimated the house payment since the poster said they pay more than 50% of their income to the mortgage. The numbers don't add up. There are also a lot of expenses that aren't on there. Car maintenance and repair. It costs a lot when you commute that far, I used to do it. Oil, tires, etc. The poster also claimed that the house they have is a fixer upper that they are continually working on. Even when you are doing all the work yourself it still costs a lot of money, especially now. I'm doing that with my own home.

I know that a family of 4 can live fine on that income but the numbers they posted do not make sense. I wouldn't have normally mentioned it but the posters holier-than-thou attitude caught my attention. They seem to shit stir in every thread I see them in.

[pnutbutr]

139. stir shit

I'm an outspoken person and call things as I see it. As for the numbers not making sense with me. I have explained much of the cost cutting we have done. It's tight, not much extra but we manage to do just fine. Tax time is nice because we always get money back which helps enormously, especially after the holidays. Buy second hand as much as possible and make purchases like christmas for the kids throughout the year to spread out the cost and eliminate the big hit in December. Me and my wife don't give each other presents and haven't for many years even for birthdays and our anniversary. There is no need to spend money on something to show you care when you show it every day. When working on the house I do it slowly and either buy second hand from a slavage yard a little bit aways from me that is a goldmine of old house parts or only buy sales and special deals I can get. The house is not a do it now and finish it now project. I plan for it to take over ten years to get the house in order. Hopefully by that time me and my wife will be making a bit more money to more easily pay for some of the stuff we would like to do.

It's not easy to live cheap. There is a lot of planning ahead and sacrifice involved.

[conflictgirl]

176. Wrong about EITC limits

A family with two children qualifies for the Earned Income Tax Credit only if their income is below $37, 783. 50K is not really that much to live on, though I've lived on as little as 22K with a spouse and 3 children.

[Sebass1271]

34. Thank you.

Liberals, the supposedly true compassionates are very off putting on this site. Maybe the major reason why i just started posting recently instead of posting years ago when I became a member is because of this off putting judgmental character that fills this website.

[TornadoTN]

43. Don't let it get you down - we are for the most part compassionate and caring

Sometimes we have our disagreements and some posters just live by their own sense of superiority. You'll get used to it and learn to overlook these types.

As for the poster in question - don't sweat it. They won't last long with that kind of attitude.

[pitohui]

46. yes liberals have a nasty habit of using their minds

sorry this bothers you or that you are surprised that liberals can be found at a site called democratic UNDERGROUND

[TornadoTN]

53. What the hell is your problem?

Again, and we can repeat this ad nauseum: You have no idea what this persons situation is and what other factors might be eating into their budget.

Stop being such a condescending asshole to members on this board. Just because you have got it made in your situation, doesn't mean that everyone else is going to follow you in lock-step. There are many, many reasons why your budget works and why it wouldn't work in other areas or situations.

A little empathy could go a long way and maybe people would listen to your advice a little more intently if you tried some.

[SpookyCat]

105. Wow, bad morning for you! :(

Don't let it get to you. There are so many personalities here and so many buttons that can be pushed all unknowing...I think overall people here are great, and most times I find that these tiffs come down to either misunderstanding or just regular old personality clash. It happens, but everyone for the most part means well, I think... :hug:


As for your original issue, it's a strawman, which I think has been pointed out by now.


Hang in there...President Obama will fix all this. It may take both his terms, but it'll get better.

[pitohui]

45. er no, she said she lived in so. florida

hardly one of the most expensive areas of the country

i agree w. the other poster's comments, this person does not know how real people live, i would be a multi millionaire w.in a few years of having such an income for us!!!! but getting jobs that pay so high is simply not possible

if the address was manhattan or san francisco ok but we're talking FLORIDA, you know, that place where old people move because it's so damn cheap they'll put up w. the hurricane crap, that place with NO STATE INCOME TAX

[nosillies]

49. So how much did your home in Florida cost you?

I can tell you how expensive mine was! I can also tell you how ridiculously expensive my property taxes are each year, or how I take it up the ass each time I pay my homeowner's insurance, even though I don't live near the coast. Or how what I pay for gas and what my brother in L.A. pays for gas are usually within about 5 cents of each other. Or how my auto insurance is more expensive in Florida than anywhere else I've lived, maybe because I have to share the road with said old people. Sorry, but I've lived in 6 different states, including CA, and Florida takes the cake. Unless you're living in a backassward interior county, it's not a "damn cheap" place to live.

[shrike]

150. Yeah, it used to be, but it sure ain't now

I lived there twenty-five years ago. Was going out of reach, then. I used to run into these stragglers, latter-day hippies who moved to Florida to be close to the ocean, catch their own fish, live on boats or in a trailer. Some of them formed communities that became the funky, artsy parts of town. Wonder if any are left.

[AndyTiedye]

35. Your Mortgage Is Probably Much Lower Than One if Florida Would Be

[TornadoTN]

42. You might want to check your smug and self-righteousness at the door

Why go about attacking someone that lives in different circumstances than you do? There are many variables as to why you are able to do what you do compared to the OP. You don't know their situation and they don't know yours. For all we know, you both could be bullshitting about it.

Why not use some kind of positive critique instead of "NO SYMPATHY HERE!!!!!"?? We don't pride ourselves on this board for berating and being condescending to others, that's another board.

[pitohui]

47. the poster comes off swiging bragging about their six figure income

...and you wonder why people are hurt and respond in kind?

there was another way to open the discussion and bragging about one's huge income wasn't the best way to do it

imagine if you're in the real world, you're at a pub, and someone comes up to you and says,
"hi, i'm see bass, i make $100K a year but i'm having trouble paying my bills" -- you'd want to pour your damn beer over her head, wouldn't you?

[TornadoTN]

52. Actually, I wouldn't be so quick to judge someone - you have no idea what their situation is

That's just me - jumping to conclusions isn't something that I pride myself on. But different strokes and all that.....

I think it's equally possible for a family that earns $100,000 combined could have trouble making ends meet, especially when cost of living is factored in. Then throw in any of the countless other factors that a family could be faced with, and it's not a stretch.

Remember: $100,000 isn't a lot of money in today's economy in many places (or situations) around this country.

[lumberjack_jeff]

109. Not a beer that cost me $2.50

Maybe the peanuts.

[LanternWaste]

55. If you had absolute and concrete knowledge...

If you had absolute and concrete knowledge of each and every relevant bit of the OP's personal expenditures, you might have a point yet as you don't, and as the OP gave a mere thumbnail sketch of his families finances, who's to say he can or cannot afford the health care other than the OP himself?
(Unless of course, you believe that we can make inferences with absolute precision about your own household budget based on the few number you yourself supplied us with...)

However, as sympathy rests within each of us in an infinite amount, he'll get twice as much from me to make up for your lack...

[here_is_to_hope]

58. I am with you, family of three here and we do quite well

on....are ya sitting down?
1550.00 net a month.
So any one whining at 100k a year is not managing their money.

[proud2BlibKansan]

65. Wow did you take a rude pill today?

First of all, OP lives in an expensive area of the country. Not fair to compare your situation to hers. Secondly she pays a LOT more in taxes on her income than you do on yours. Between her tax bracket and the difference in regional taxes, she could very well be bringing home less money than you are.

So chill, okay?

[GreenPartyVoter]

78. Nice attitude. I can play that game too. Family of 4 here living on $30,000

living in a trailer and can't afford a real house with a mortgage attached to it. I should feel bad for you why?

My parents were making close to $100K for a time but they had remortgaged the house, helped my bro and me through college, and paid for my wedding (which we did as inexpensively as possible.) So yeah they had some money coming in but it was all going right back out. And before you jump on them for paying for college and weddings and so forth bear in mind that if my bro and I had taken on that debt ourselves we would have been even worse off than we are now.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

89. I Don't Believe The OP Was Looking For Sympathy.

But thanks for showing us your true colors anyway.

:puke:

[Selatius]

10. The idiot obviously doesn't understand that Obama is letting Bush's cuts expire on income over 250K.

The Bush tax cuts were always temporary in nature. Obama is merely taking advantage of that by allowing the law to revert to what it was on income over 250,000, and if the pre-Bush tax code was higher on income below 250,000 and he lets those come back, he'd be breaking a primary promise of his economic package.

[Sebass1271]

19. Thank you.

I haven't seen this graph around.

[MedleyMisty]

11. My husband and I make $40,000 combined

and we're doing just fine - bought a house earlier this summer, eat out a fair bit, have all the books and computer games and computers good enough to run them that we want. We also have excellent benefits at our jobs - my husband works at the library and I work for a small local company owned by a caring and compassionate and ethical person.

$100,000 is hardly barely surviving and yeah, I can see how you make too much money for the child insurance.

What sort of jobs pay that much but don't have benefits?

I admit that I don't know enough about Obama's specific plan, but my response to the quoted post would be "Why is paying taxes so that everyone can have health care a bad thing?"

[Sebass1271]

14. you have good benefits and your employer provides you with

this. Our employers do not. We only have one car payment and one used one. We live in florida where we need to have one GOOD CAR because everything is far and spread. NO public transporation here. And yes, our employers don't offer health insurance, not even 401K or any retirement plans. They say we are both getting paid "well" so they are paying us "well" to not provide healht benefits.

[flstci]

24. I think what slee is saying is;

You make $60k more in combined wages yet you are saying it would cost you less than $12,000/year to insure yourselves. Sounds like your company is saying they are paying you enough to afford your own healthcare. In essence you have $88,000/year jobs with $12,000 to provide your own healthcare.

I dunno. It depends on how you look at it I guess.

[Maine-ah]

71. are you saying there is no public transportation in Miami?

[kcass1954]

116. Oh, we have it. But it really sucks!

Disclaimer - I live in Broward, but pretty much the same issues exist in Dade.

The closest thing to public transportation here is to drive to a park & ride lot and catch Tri-Rail. The trains do not run frequently enough, and are fairly crowded in rush hour. A monthly pass will run $80. Sounds good, eh? The tracks run parallel to I95, and if your workplace is not nearby, you'll have problems getting there. The bus schedules don't coordinate with the train schedules.

A few years ago I turned down one job and accepted another at a much lower salary. The problem - distance. I was temp-ing at a great place, but it was 35 miles from home. In order to take Tri-Rail, I would have had to drop my then-toddler off at the day care when it opened at 7, drive east to a station, praying that I would bet able to get across town, park the car and get my butt on the train by 7:35. The train would have dropped me off at 8:35, but I would have been 2 miles from the job. The next bus wasn't scheduled until 8:55 - I needed to be at work at 9.

The buses here aren't any better.

[BootinUp]

12. Obama's plan is very similar to Hillary's, it was to let only

part of the Bush tax cuts to expire for those making over 250,000. Does that answer your question?

[Selatius]

13. Your employer is pretty fucking shitty if it pays you 50K/year and doesn't offer health insurance.

Individual health insurance plans are worse than collective company plans, simply because large companies have collective bargaining power in bringing down insurance rates. Individuals do not.

[Sebass1271]

16. Yeap. Their excuse are

the same.. we pay you "well". Therefore, we don't need to offer you benefits. If we protest or speak up, the show us the door. We can’ leave our company for now. Times are very difficult and jobs are scarce in Florida.

[Selatius]

23. If health insurance is a priority, you may want to examine all your spending habits and adjust.

I have been forced to live with running the air conditioning only half the day and have eliminated the cable bill and other luxuries in tough times. The air conditioning was what freed up enough money to get out of the hole I was in. That, and simply abandoning the notion of ever eating out. Afterward, I bought food in bulk and looked for discount sales on food items.

Then, to cut back further, I started a log and recorded every transaction over the course of a month, and from that, I decided to eliminate other things as well, like excessive driving outside of getting to-and-from work and the store.

[Sebass1271]

27. Just said, we don't spend. We don't splurge. we have

one car payment and one used car. We take family vacation every year. But we don't splurge or spend on unnecessary things. We do have cable and internet. Should we cut on these things as per all of your suggestions here?

[lumberjack_jeff]

30. Compared to medical insurance

Vacations, car payments and cable are unnecessary.

[Ikonoklast]

69. Bingo.

Get rid of the cable. You can live without it.

Vacations, I'm afraid, are a luxury if you cannot afford health insurance. See how much money you spend on one serious illness compared to a lifetime of vacations. The bill for the illness will be more.

If you can sell the car with the payments without taking a loss, do it and buy a used car with cash. No car payments. Adjust your insurance to a higher deductible, and just have primary liability/collision on the older car.

No eating out. Eat at home. Cheaper every time.

Pack a lunch to work. Same as above.

Cut out those $4.00 cups of coffee.

Write down in a journal every single penny of expense, no matter how trivial, from your house payment on down. If you or your SO buy a pack of gum, write it down. At the end of a month, you will see exactly where your money goes, and exactly where to cut unneeded expenses.

You might be surprised how much income is just frittered away on non-essentials.

[Realityhack]

100. I only disagree on the car payment.

Sometimes that is a necessary evil.

[Selatius]

88. Forget the family vacation. Drop the internet and cable until better days.

It's what I did when I went through that rough patch. Tough times call for sacrifice, sacrifice, sacrifice.

[conflictgirl]

178. That may be true, but its unlikely that those costs would cover health insurance

The poster didn't say what kind of family vacations they're taking each year - if it's something that costs several thousand, I can see how cutting that would enable paying for private health insurance. But I've looked into private health insurance before and plans for all 5 of us that actually covered anything ranged from $250-$500 a month. Don't know about you, but if I cut out cable and internet I'd save about $75/month - there is NO private health insurance policy, not even the most bare-bones one with the highest deductibles, that would cover a family for $75/month.

[buckettgirl]

165. hmmm

Health insurance vs. yearly vacation.

I don't know what your budget is for your vacation, but my husband and I just spent $1200 to go out of state for 4 days for our anniversary last month (and that was 5 years of saving up for it).
If you travel locally, and don't spend much, then it might not matter.
But if your trips cost you what mine did or more, then cutting out vacations would be a step in the right direction toward freeing up some cash to pay for health insurance.

[bigtree]

15. he wanted the tax cuts to expire for those who benefited for 8 years while the rest got the shaft

Ask the creep if his taxes went down under the republicans who were in charge while our economy tanked. I seriously doubt he is in the tax bracket where these taxes were cut.

And, it should be remembered that there is just a fraction of small businesses which make more than the $250,000 that under Obama's would see those tax cuts rolled back. Those small businesses which make less than $250,000 would see their taxes go down under Barack's plan


BTW, I'm really disappointed in these 'concerned' posts of yours. You have the means and ability to determine the truth on your own. These inquiries of yours are nothing more than a promotion of these ridiculous republican attacks under the guise of wanting a response. Figure out one yourself and post it here without the helpless act.

[Sebass1271]

17. Thank you. I will do so. From now on.

[pitohui]

48. thanks bigtree

at least somebody gets it

[CountAllVotes]

18. we don't "qualify" for help either

and gee, we are at a whopping $17,000.00 a year!

:puke:

[Sebass1271]

32. For some reason i sense

some kind of jealousy here. Should we be blamed because you make this little? I really don't understand your lack of understanding to my original post. Just because we make a little bit more than you do, doesn't mean we are not struggling like the rest of us.

[CountAllVotes]

36. $83,000 a year would help a lot around her

I'd pay the $800 a month if I was you.

You are one trip away from bankruptcy if something goes wrong FYI.

:kick:

[JeanGrey]

169. I just want to know how to get family coverage for 800 a month.

That's 400 per person and I know people who their insurance through work costs that much. Hubby and I pay over a grand now and it goes up to 1200 next year.

[Adsos Letter]

37. A little bit more...? You make $83,000 MORE than the poster...

:eyes: I don't think it's "jealousy" on the poster's part...granted, $100,000 doesn't go as far in some parts of the country but, barring some unknown financial problem you aren't telling us about, it is more than enough to get by just fine.

My opinion, of course...

[CountAllVotes]

38. that is why I said I'd pay the $800 a month

a mere pittance compared to bankruptcy for medical problems.

[lumberjack_jeff]

111. No. It's all about the math. If you make more, you struggle less.

You aren't struggling with inadequate income, you're stuggling with choices.

You've chosen vacations, cable and a new car over medical insurance for your family. Wants do not take precedence over needs. Medical insurance is the latter.

[frylock]

22. you can't debunk bullshit..

ask for specific cites for Obama raising taxes on everyone. tell them to take their time; you've got all day. enjoy the sound of crickets or the wind whistling through that idiot's skull.

[lumberjack_jeff]

25. Insurance wouldn't be nearly as expensive if everyone were covered.

I'm trying hard here to be sympathetic, but my family of five (one with special needs and one in college) makes significantly less than half yours. Closer to one-third.

Sadly, in this society medical coverage is an individual responsibility. But it is a responsibility. $800/month is more than it should be, but it is less than 10% of your gross income.

I can't afford my taxes. I can't afford to pay the mortgage. I can't afford to feed my kids, but I have to. Because I HAVE to do those things, other things become discretionary.

You are one ambulance ride from bankruptcy, leaving me to pick up the tab. This should be exhibit #1 explaining why any effective government medical plan cannot be optional.

[Sebass1271]

26. Our family has never considered Bankrupcy. So

you should not be worry about picking our mess. As a matter of fact, we pay our bills on time and we, too, have another child in college.

[lumberjack_jeff]

29. You don't get it.

A heart attack costs $100,000. If you "can't afford" insurance, you can't afford to get sick. If you get sick, you'll be bankrupted. If you're bankrupted, those who have insurance will pick up the tab for the written-off portion of your medical care in the form of even higher premiums.

If you need a way to justify the need for insurance, check out this.
http://www.besthealthinsurancebook.com/Resources/Medical-Cost-by-Principal-Procedure.html

If I'm wrong, and you have hundreds of thousands in the bank to pay for medical care, then your point about unaffordable insurance is lost on me.

[lovuian]

75. We NEED Nationalized Medicine these ideas of

all will eventually lead to socialized medicine which most of the world have for their people

Its a RIGHT not a priviledge

[lumberjack_jeff]

99. Absolutely correct. In the meantime, no one can afford to choose to not have med insurance. n/t

[BootinUp]

33. Medical bills are a major cause of bankruptcy

and home foreclosure in this country.

[kineneb]

39. I used to be "middle-class"

Before hubby lost his job at WorldCom... before he became ill,we spent down all of our cash assets, and then had to file for medical bankruptcy... before he died, leaving me only the house and no money...

Now I get public-paid health care and food stamps, but to do that, I have to be able to show I make no more than $600/month. Shall I say, that to do so requires "creative financing" and living on the edge of poverty. Fortunately, my "basic needs" expenses are below $700/month, and what work I am able to do is paid in cash. My choice is to work and have no health insurance, or not to "work" and have at least minimal health insurance.

[Greyhound]

41. Your situation is exactly why we need to completely reassess our national

system and priorities. We have far more than sufficient resources to establish a real floor for our society, but thanks to being subject to the tender mercies of the parasite class for almost two centuries, we have a national misconception that we are not owed anything by society.

The requirements that you are subjected to is the result of a well orchestrated and ongoing campaign of lies that has created an ignorant, mean-spirited, and niggardly society.

The worst part from my perspective is that it would be so easy to change it, we just don't have the will.

[InkAddict]

146. I used to be "middle class" too...

Before my IT-employed and only-child hubby lost his job at..., and my FIL became too ill to live at home and too well not to...We tried to spend down his assets in anticipation of the need for skilled nursing. Alas, he never qualified for it, so hubby choose a decent nearby assisted living facility that did not do Medicaid/Medicare for him. FIL outlasted his funds which we were augmenting for his housing, and then the spouse lost his job, again.

FIL passed...we moved and rented an apartment in another city while trying unsuccessfully to rent the house. We needed to evict the first renter for non-payment. That's when my boss decided I needed to foot healthcare premiums, reducing my PT earnings by half. I gave notice to look for a new job in a new city, and we moved closer to our kids. Then my Repuke boss and office mgr, I believe, purposely stalled the distribution of what was left of my 401(k)and we could not satisfy our lender in time; Countrywide refused to restructure our loan.

With no STEADY income save unemployment which was coming rapidly to a close and no healthcare, we paid out the nose and filed. Since then, he's had several short-term "career opportunities" HAH!

When he was outsourced yet again by a new bail-out recipient employer, we moved in with the kids rather than sign a new lease without sufficient means to make the rent. It's been a disaster, as we "cramp their lifestyle."

With our voter registration changed and new checks printed, they've ordered us to leave by the end of the first week in November. (Trying to Rock the Vote or just Rockin' Mom & Dad's pittance of a wallet, you decide?). But that's another story.

We're early boomers, so I don't see us ever recouping a home, having healthcare other than Medicare, or regaining a middle class life.

[pitohui]

44. yeah sure you do honey

if you really made $100K a year you would have the $800 a month to spend on health insurance

we make less than half that and our share of my husband's company health benefit is over $400 a month and somehow we manage

we'd be rolling in gravy if we had more than double the income w. only double the health benefit to pay

i wouldn't be worried about replying to a "creep," i'd be worried about getting in touch w. the real world

we should have universal health insurance for ALL, regardless of income, but in a world where we don't, i don't quite want to hear from people making 3 times the median income about how tough it is to pay the bills! how do you think real people are managing?

[blount]

50. How understanding and helpful

So because she make more than you and is struggling she has to get in touch with the real world? Because she does not share your troubles in your way, she is somehow wrong?

You from a red state?

I also make over 100,000 a year. I understand completely where she is coming from. I have a disabled child, and spend a lot of money helping friends/family/neighbors. I also am struggling with money because I am heavily supporting my dad in retirement and live in a fairly expensive place to live. I am carrying some debit because I literally started with nothing. Everything I owned I had to charge at the beginning of our family.

Wow... I guess I need to "get in touch with reality"

You are aware the world income average is 7,000.00? You are rolling in gravy NOW!

[ContinentalOp]

76. Yeah, I hate to be a dick about it but I'm as skeptical of the OP as you are.

My wife and I made a similar amount of money one year while paying very similar health care costs, a mortgage, preschool, a nice vacation, lots of eating out in restaurants, etc. And Los Angeles is not exactly a cheap place to live. :shrug:

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

90. Talk About Narrow Minded.

You seem to be under this amazingly ignorant assumption that cost of living, house prices etc are the same everywhere, under all circumstances, for every family. How sad.

[lumberjack_jeff]

112. With the exception of electricity, taxes and housing, they are. n/t

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

117. What About Daycare? What About Schooling? What About Gas Prices? What About Car Insurance?

What about home insurance? What about other services?

And do you not realize the percent of an average american's income that goes towards mortgage, state taxes, home taxes, car insurance, schooling, daycare, and those other things that are different per region?

[lumberjack_jeff]

121. I go to the big city to buy groceries, gas, clothes and building materials.

I drive a long way for the privilege of paying the low prices in the urban center.

The regional differences in cost of living are overstated. Electricity varies significantly. Taxes vary somewhat (my state is the worst for po' folk like me). Public school is free everywhere. Housing varies significantly, but the difference in the price of housing varies more from one Seattle neighborhood to another than it does from Seattle to my house 75 miles away.

I know that daycare is a major expense, being a single parent makes budgeting more difficult than for most families who have the luxury of choosing to have one parent stay home, telecommute or work part time.

[yodoobo]

51. Do you live in a high cost area like NYC?

I think I understand barely surviving on 100k in a expensive areas like NYC or San francisco.

But in most areas, 100k a year is a pretty well off, definitely upper middle class

(on edit: I see that you live in Florida. I can't say that I entirely understand. I'm barely surviving myself on about $60k. I'd love to try barely surviving on $100k for awhile. But nonetheless, I suppose its all relative and hope things improve for you..for all of us)

[Enrique]

54. pretend you only make $90,000

then spend the other $10,000 on insurance.

at $90,000, you're still doing better than 80% of American families so you'll make it.

[JeanGrey]

56. My husband and I make 42,000 a year and we pay

over 1100 a month for insurance. We have no "savings".

[madmom]

57. Man it sounds like a bunch of repugs have infiltrated this board, why berate someone who

manages to make a better income than you do? I'd say congratulations and good luck.

[here_is_to_hope]

59. Bet it does, however you are missing the point, the OP

isnt making ends meet at 100k a year, so whats the point of them 'making a better income' when so many of us are getting by on way less?
Do they need lifestyle lessons?
Econ 101?
Oh, I must be a repuke then?

[PVnRT]

61. "There are people worse off, so shut the fuck up and quit complaining"

Nope, never heard a right-winger say that, not ever...

[madmom]

63. If they are making $100,000 a year why should they live like they make

$20? You nor anyone else on this board know their circumstances so what gives you the right to criticize?I'm retired now as is my husband, but when we were both working my hubby worked at general motor making pretty good money i also worked making fairly good money.Co-workers kept asking me why was I working because we didn't "need" the money. I tried to explain to them with their income and their spouses income was more than my hubby made alone they still didn't understand so finally I just started saying "because I'm greedy" THAT they understood. THAT"S what they wanted to hear so then they let it go.Go figure!

[Enrique]

64. how about 90k?

that's still pretty good bread. :shrug:

[JeanGrey]

168. I only wish we could get health insurance that cheap.

We make 42K a year on social security and long term disability and ours is going up to 1400 next year.

[lumberjack_jeff]

115. I'd say congratulations and good luck too. Sadly that luck won't last absent better choices nt

[golddigger]

62. ???

:eyes:

[youthere]

68. My $0.02...

If I understand you correctly (and haven't missed anything) with the exception of one family vacation per year, all your money goes to basic living expenses...mortgage, groceries, utilities, gas, car payment, etc. I can't help but think that you and your husband must have made some poor financial decisions or else you live (or have in the past lived) beyond your means, and that at least might partially be contributing to your current situation.
That being said, I'm very sorry you ARE in this situation-whether you landed there of your own volition or not. I know how bad it sucks to have to worry constantly about the health of your family, and NO ONE (no matter how much or little they earn) should have to worry about "What will I do if my kid gets sick?"

[earth mom]

70. On that income, you can afford insurance but you are choosing not to afford it.

We make what is considered a decent income, though it's nowhere near as high as yours. We have health insurance due to my husbands union employer, but we still have to pay for the insurance AND pay extra for dental and vision for a total of $350 a month.

So sorry, but if we can afford to pay almost half of what you are being asked to pay and you make so much more than we do, you CAN afford it. You just don't want to.

[Name removed]

91. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

118. Pretty Narrow Minded Concept.

You seem to be under this amazingly flawed assumption that cost of living, house prices etc are the same everywhere, under all circumstances, for every family. Pretty ridiculous position.

[earth mom]

123. Narrow minded? Talking about yourself again?

:eyes:

[RainDog]

74. my 2 cents

I cannot tell you about your cost of living, etc. but I can say that if you earn that much, I think it would be a good thing to cut expenses on things like cable or vacations or hobbies or groceries to pay for health coverage.

as others noted, you will go bankrupt if you have a major illness w/o any insurance. that's, hopefully, a stop gap measure and the democrats will put through legislation that makes it possible for the middle class to live w/o fear of bankruptcy because of illness or other family crisis.

For two weeks, write down EVERYTHING you buy. How much you paid for it. Then look at that list and you'll see ways you can cut expenses.

You can save money by renting movies for free from the library. same with books. you can tell friends and family to donate to a food bank in your name instead of giving presents - and you can do the same and spend less money in a better way... we all have too much stuff. I know I do.

I went from a situation in which I was married, working part time and caring for my kids with husband with a six figure income to being a graduate student and full time drek job employee with college loans. I haven't had health insurance for years, beyond what I had as a student. I now have access to other insurance via my state as I send out my resume, I was told. I was supposed to go there yesterday but didn't. I have to take medication and I've been rationing it until I can find a new doc since I can no longer go to the one I had before.

I have to contribute to pay for my two sons' college education even though I make so little money at the moment I could probably qualify for public assistance. But I don't do that because I can't bear the idea. Unfortunately, the other idea, that I will just remove myself from this life, seems more palpable too often, because I no longer care about anything in this life but my kids. when I become a deficit to them, then what? My life seems unnecessary to anyone but me. And even I don't think it's necessary some days.

I was able to take money out of my pension before the recent crash to help me to survive for now. But of course, that means I will have little to no pension. but I have to survive right now. the future isn't real when you cannot afford to live in the present.

anyway, just to say that we all have to deal with the situation we're in. I no longer have cable. I do have cell phones for me and my kids b/c one of them is disabled and cannot drive, etc. and he's living on campus. but we have pay as you go and we only use them for emergency. we don't give the number out to others and my kids know if they txt msg they will pay for those. I rarely go out to the movies. I have cable at home that I can write off as a biz expense now. I'm working on some freelance things and helping out my old boss again.

You are fortunate that you have the things that you do. Remember to find some gratitude. Not because of what others say here, but because that gratitude will help you find ways to cut expenses without feeling like life isn't fair. It isn't fair, but you still need insurance in this society at your level of income.

both my kids work in the summer to contribute to their educations.

[Initech]

80. Just tell him this:

You know who benefits from McCain's tax cuts? You don't. You don't get shit.

[NeedleCast]

82. Obviously I don't know the specifics

but if you're making 100K combined income in Florida and are only supporting one child, you're doing something very wrong. If you and your husband both work one of you should be able to find a job that offers health insurance, but even at 800/mo that would be less than 10% of your income. What do your car payments look like? I'm assuming you have two (and insurance on both).

It sounds like you need to find some areas to make cuts. I know families with children making 60K a year who don't fall into the category of "barely surviving."

[annunakigohome]

87. It's not how much you make; it's how much you spend

I know it would be prying, but I would love to know how much your mortgage is, as well as property taxes and all the other expenses you describe. I think a family of four or six could live nicely with half that amount if they got the most bang for their buck. But your combined salaries sound like heaven to me!

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

92. I Have That Income And Don't Have All That Much Or That Much Left Over.

What some of the ignoramuses (not saying you) who think the universe is only as large as their own immediate circumstance dictates don't realize, is that different areas can have significantly different costs of living.

If you wanted to see my breakout, I could give you a kinda quick list:

Mortgage, 1450
Daycare 1900
Taxes 375 (4500 yearly)
Home insurance 75 (900 yearly)
Flood insurance 100 (1200 yearly)
Car insurance 100
Electric 125
Heating 125
Gas 160-200
Cable/Internet 160
Cellphone 65
Regular phone 88
Food 525 or more

And I'm sure there's stuff I'm missing.

[annunakigohome]

94. Thanks for that--it's interesting what people spend. May I ask you something?

I notice how much daycare you spend. Could either you or your wife stay home with the kiddies instead of having that second job? I read somewhere that the other spouse who also works eats up most, if not all, of the earnings and so it ends up a wash.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

95. My Wife Passed Away Last Year. When She Was Alive, We Couldn't Afford Her Staying Home.

She was bringing in half the income, which was about 3000 per month each. Only reason I'm still close to that is because of a big promotion I got shortly before she passed and because of survivor benefits for the kids from Social Security.

We debated it, but couldn't do it. We still needed the additional 1100.

[dddem]

119. I'm so sorry for your loss.

[annunakigohome]

167. Oh, I am so sorry...thank you for sharing everything, also

Good luck to you and your children. I am sure that a new administration will be much better for your family.

[JeanGrey]

170. How many kids do you have? I've never heard of that price

for daycare.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

171. 2. And It's The Cheapest Around Here.

[JeanGrey]

172. For how many kids and where are you?

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

173. I Just Told You. Two. And I'm In North Jersey.

In my area, it's the cheapest. 434 a week for both children. They are 3 and almost 5.

For two kids, many people pay over 2000 here.

[JeanGrey]

174. I'm sorry! My mind went right over the .2. Wow I am floored.

I've never heard of such ridiculous amounts of money for two kids in daycare. I'd move first.
(If I could)

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

177. It Sucks. When I Put My Second In Daycare And Realized I'm Spending 1900 A Month, I Said

"holy shit, I could buy a $450,000 additional house for that! I should buy a beautiful house, put an ad in the paper saying "Free house! Just watch my kids till 5pm!" and at least get the tax deduction" lol.

[JeanGrey]

175. Duplicate.

[Lorien]

96. ??? I'm self employed and I pay about $228 a month for insurance

and I no longer make anywhere close to 100k per year (I used to make that and more during the Clinton years).Just Google "compare health insurance plans". There should be something reasonable out there for less than $800 a month.

[Overseas]

102. How old are you? Prices go way way up as you age. ///

[Realityhack]

97. He didn't say he wouldn't raise them... he said he would cut them...

and he will. Under ~$112k per person Obama's tax cuts would net you more than McCain's. After that you get a bigger tax cut under McCain's plan.

[RadicalTexan]

101. As someone making $30,000, I don't think you're very poor

Unless you're living in Manhattan or San Francisco. In which case, you should move.

[ColbertWatcher]

104. The first thing you should do when responding to GOP fearmails is ...

... make them prove their claim.

Always ask them where they got their information.

The problem with the way the GOP argue is they start with a belief first. In this instance, the belief is "liberals will tax me!"

Make them prove their claim first and watch how fast it goes from "an email told me blah, blah, blah" to "b-b-but tax-and-spend liberals!"

[LisaL]

106. Hah.

I couldn't even buy insurance if I wanted to because of a pre-existing condition (which is relatively minor). WTF is up with that? What exactly is a person with any kind of condition is supposed to do in this country?

[Midlodemocrat]

108. Let me tell you something. When my dad was alive,

we had a private duty nurse to care for him for a while until we could get him to move down here with us so that I could take of him. It took a while to get him on a list for assisted living here.

The cost of 24hour care for said nurse was over $9,500 a month.

A MONTH.

Spending that kind of money because you get caught in a shitty situation eliminates your cushion pretty damned fast. And, I'm not complaining. I'm grateful we had the income to sustain that.

Not everyone is so lucky. My other choice would have been to leave him to his own devices until the homemaker from the state could visit him for 2-3 hours M-F.

Mind you. This man was not ambulatory, incontinent and in advanced stages of Alzheimer's. Pleasantly demented, though, which was a bonus.

I don't regret it for a moment until I start looking at the hit my 401K has taken this year.

[LeftyMom]

113. I would kill to have your problems.

:nopity:

[SammyWinstonJack]

120. No kidding!

[Blue Diadem]

124. You take an annual vacation and have money to save and you're barely surviving?

I think that's why some people are being hard on you. It's like a punch in the gut and hard to understand for those who are struggling to pay their light bill or have had to declare bankruptcy or have no health care because they genuinely can't afford it.

Yes, health insurance is expensive. We make 1/3 what you do and we pay about $250 a month for our share of employer provided health care that quite frankly stinks. But, considering my DH was hospitalized in April I was ever so thankful that we had it. We will continue to eat hamburger and cheaper foods so we can continue to pay the bills that insurance didn't cover. After 2 plants closings, income at 2/3 of our former, we take no vacations and there is nothing left for savings.

Obama has a website that has all the info you asked. He has a taxcut calculator and the complete plan for his health insurance. I encourage you to check it out.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

125. Well, Those People Need To Get A Serious Grip.

I'm sorry that they are suffering, but I have little respect for those that suffer but in doing so, feel bitterness and resentment towards others who aren't suffering as severely.

An annual vacation and just a little bit of savings? That warrants a punch in the gut? What malarkey. If someone who is in more dire straits than that takes that as a punch in the gut and actually feels bitter and resentful based on that alone, then they aren't just poor financially, but poor spiritually as well.

Anger and resentment towards someone because they can simply take a vacation a year and have a little bit to save, but not nearly enough to cover themselves and their family with health insurance, is just plain narrow minded, unjustified, disrespectful and wrong.

I hope those people find themselves in a better situation someday. I really do. But I also hope they do a lot of soul searching along the way, because it is far more than money that they are lacking.

[lumberjack_jeff]

127. I don't understand you. You don't understand me.

The OP has chosen to spend money on fun things instead of medical insurance, knowing that we'll pick up the tab if medical catastrophe strikes.

I find it frankly surprising that you of all people come to their defense. I'm unconcerned that anyone makes a high income. I am concerned that, in order to spend 9% of their income on more fulfilling things, they consider it ethically appropriate to transfer their risks onto me despite having twice the income. (Actually, if they paid the $800/month for insurance, the remainder would still be twice our gross. Our family has medical coverage because we consider it a mandatory expenditure. If we don't have money for medical insurance, we don't have money for cable or vacations or savings.)

It is possible, particularly for those with 6 figure incomes, to meet ones obligations and still have enough for recreation/entertainment/savings/discretionary money.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

130. You've Let Your Bitterness Overcome You. May You Find Spiritual Healing Someday.

And one vacation a year does not amount to being able to afford 800 bucks a month.

Your bitterness eats at your soul. I hope you become aware to that someday and can find the inner strength it takes to turn away from your dark bitterness, since it serves no one any good including yourself. The OP is a good person yet you cast bitterness and dark energy onto her for wrong reasons. You should embrace her and care, rather than close off and resent.

You should be better than that. God bless you both.

[Blue Diadem]

136. Actually we do care about her. It's just like I'd tell my kids

if they were overspending and not able to meet family needs. Budget and realize what is necessary and what isn't.

[lumberjack_jeff]

155. It is as if you read my post, then responded to something else. n/t

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

157. No. It Is What It Is. I Read Your Post And Responded Perfectly.

Let the bitterness go. It'll do you good.

[lumberjack_jeff]

158. Mindreading must pay well.

You didn't respond to anything I wrote. You only addressed the straw man you've constructed; e.g. all criticism of high income people is based on "bitterness" and "jealousy".

I have sympathy for those who cannot afford the necessities such as medical care. The OP is not in this category. She considers the risk of medical catastrophe in her family to be someone else's problem, because she "obviously can't afford it".

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

160. You Should Seriously Consider Taking My Advice.

Your bitterness has the potential to eat you up inside. May you someday be granted the wisdom to understand your wrongs.

[PVnRT]

142. I take it you oppose single-payer government health care then

"...they consider it ethically appropriate to transfer their risks onto me despite having twice the income."

Insurance is based on saving money to people by spreading risk out. The only conclusion to draw from your post is that you are opposed to the idea of "picking up the tab" for anyone else when it comes to health care.

[lumberjack_jeff]

149. Of course not. Single payer FORCES everyone to share everyone's risk. You can't avoid it.

Refusing to purchase medical insurance (either on the open market or through taxes) forces others to bear your risk.

[PVnRT]

152. How is that?

They make too much to qualify for Medicaid, so how is it that others are bearing the risk of their not having health insurance? If they require treatment, they will either be refused for not having insurance or be paying bills for a very long time. Doesn't seem to me that this affects you at all.

[lumberjack_jeff]

154. They are entitled to acute medical care at a hospital ER, regardless of ability to pay.

Since they're unable to pay, the hospital will eventually write it off as charity care, which we all pay for in the form of higher prices.

This is why "optional universal" health care is an epic fail.

[Blue Diadem]

134. Barely surviving isn't a phrase that people usually toss around lightly.

Anyone I've ever known who uses it is usually in pretty dire straights, not left with any amount of money for savings or an annual vacation. It all boils down to budgeting and perhaps a little realism of what one really needs vs wants. Quite frankly, I'd make sure my child was covered with insurance before I'd ever go on vacation. You know, I could say "I don't have insurance" and save us $250 a month for a vacation or to put into a savings acct. Tell me how that would be any different than the OP?

We'll just have to agree to disagree on this one OMC.

According to this 2006 article from WP, most people don't really know how to budget and it's one of the reasons so many are living above their means.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/09/09/AR2006090900108_pf.html

It Pays to Do the Math In the Budget Game

By Michelle Singletary
Sunday, September 10, 2006; F01

Most people can tell you pretty much to the penny how much their mortgage or rent is every month. They can tell you how much they pay each month for their car loan.

But ask them what percentage of their income should be allocated for housing or transportation and they hesitate.

Many don't know.

"Most consumers we counsel don't know how to create a realistic budget," said Tanisha Warner, spokesperson for Money Management International (MMI), a nonprofit consumer-counseling organization.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/09/09/AR2006090900108_pf.html

[Sugar Smack]

156. The words "barely surviving" on $100 k threw me as well.

This is barely surviving:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=4238903&mesg_id=4238903

[Blue Diadem]

161. Thank you Sugar Smack. It's heartbreaking to see so many people in need.

This winter is going to be hard on so many in the colder states and with the job loss announcements I've read about recently, I can only see the number of hungry people increasing tremendously.

[lumberjack_jeff]

126. It's worse than that.

"I make twice the median family income, but I've chosen to pass my risks onto you so that I can take vacations and put money in savings."

It is entirely justified to be offended by that.

[ContinentalOp]

128. Yeah, I really don't get it.

The first priority is housing, #2 is food, and health care is #3. Everything after that is optional. So the idea that you could spend $100k on food and housing is pretty :wtf:

[AlCzervik]

133. did i miss the vacation part in the op? I've reread it and didn't see it.

[Blue Diadem]

137. yeah, it's not in the op. It's in one of the replies.

I'll see if I can find it.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=4234920&mesg_id=4235147

[verdalaven]

129. I run with the wrong crowds.

I don't know anyone who makes $100K or more. Most the people I know make what we make, $50K or less with at least two incomes! Sorry to go off subject, but I couldn't help getting caught by the fantasy of making double what we make now.......ahhhh.......

Since the Bush tax cuts benefited the top 1%, I'd say the email pretty much debunks itself.

[Ilsa]

132. Obama is proposing to let the bush tax cuts expire, but he is proposing

new tax cuts only for those making less than $250,000.

Our debt has to get paid. The richest got richer while the debt accumulated. They need to pay more.

[Phentex]

140. one tip...maybe?

Have you considered a plan with a very high deductible? It would mean you pay most of your medical bills (just as you do now without insurance) but it would cover you in the event of something major AFTER you paid a really high deductible, 10K or more. One incident, as others have pointed out, could send you over the edge. These kinds of plans are much more affordable. Not perfect healthcare, but peace of mind for those catastrophic illnesses.

[SmileyRose]

141. Miami must be awfully expensive. - I make half that and buy health insurance

My husband and I combined are just under $50 a year. We average about $1150 a month to obtain medical care. (this includes the costs of our deductables and copays of the care we actually use) - in order to do that our lifestyle must be very simple and frugal. I live in the metro Atlanta area.

That said, our medical care costs are a great hardship financially, but we are managing out of necessity - my husband is partially disabled and is expensive.

[RebelOne]

148. Miami is awfully expensive.

I also live in the Atlanta metro area. I lived in Miami most of my life. I moved up here in 1989 and was amazed at how much cheaper everything was.

[JVS]

143. You can so afford it. That's less than 10% of your income.

[cap]

144. you're kicker is paying the $800 for insurance after tax

We make a good income but my husband has major health issues. We've had times when we've had employer paid health care (pre-tax), COBRA, and have been self-insured. Because of the complexity of his condition, we need good health insurance -- you know, the stuff McCain calls gold-plated. So sometimes we can't take the employer based health coverage. My husband would die from the limitations and screwing around with the PPO's. He needs the care and the specialists he needs immediately when he needs them. I've spotted symptoms that required immediate attention from a specialist and have taken him right to that specialist. I can't screw around with a GP as a gate keeper even though his GP is pretty good. I took him to a cardiologist early before his numbers went crazy and that has saved his life. The high deductibles don't make financial sense for us... we've run the numbers. When you are over 50, all insurance gets expensive except for the employer based health care. My husband used to work for Blue Cross so we know the system. We are taking out Italian citizenship so that we DO have good health care just in case.

I can tell you the difference in our budget and lifestyle varies tremendously when we have good employer paid health care vs COBRA/self-insurance. On employer paid health care, we do really well. The rest of the time we are working for the health care companies and we are living the lifestyle of the guy who vaunts his $50K lifestyle. Paying for that health care after tax is the equivalent of buying 2 brand new cars and making those car payments. The effect on your budget is what your critics don't get. At this point, I have realized that if I want to make a major purchase for anything extra when we do have employer based health care, it is better for me to pay for it in cash. I know we can live with a $1500-2000 (counting copayments and prescriptions) hit to our monthly budget.

Go get a job with employer based health care! Yeah, sure. Just change your job in the middle of the worst economic crisis since the Great Depression. Just get off your lazy tail and get one. Oh yeah, and keep the job. Don't you dare get laid off. Get out of IT. 40% of IT jobs are contingent... aka temporary with poor or no health care coverage. That means 40% of the programmers who look like they are middle class are sucking wind. They better be living a 50K lifestyle so that they will be saving up for the periods when they are unemployed. What savings they have will be dissipated when they lose their job. It is rather demoralizing to have $15-20K in savings for the rainy day spent during a period of unemployment and then realize that when you do get a job that you have to put that money back in the kitty. You feel that you are just rolling the stone up the hill just to have it roll back down.

Remember that 30% of the population of certain states: WV, Mississsippi, and Alabama do not have health insurance. I don't know what the percentage is for Florida but I think it is also high since a lot of jobs are in tourism and construction. Jobs that typically don't have health insurance or good health insurance.

You can live the 50K lifestyle with the 4 bedroom house as long as you have a STABLE job with good health and youth. Remove those conditions and you are screwed.

On another level, I have to ask if this is the way we are all to live? Is buying from consignment stores, buying the store brand, the day old bread, coupon cutting, buying Chinese made stuff from Kmart and Target the way we are to aspire to live? Is this something to hope for? During college, I went without eating properly, lived in a slum, only bought 5 pairs of jeans and shirts, 4 dresses (the whole 4 years), because I hoped for something better.

I think given the upcoming economic conditions, this is the way it is, folks. We will see things get worse before they get better. The OP's problem is that he/she wanted something more; maybe even had something more. I remember that life seemed a whole lot nicer when I could walk into a grocery store and buy what I wanted without thinking about the budget (I rarely buy convenience foods. Don't eat beef very often due to my husband's heart condition. I cook from scratch). Now, I realize that I cant walk into a grocery store and shop without a well thought out list. When prices started going up, I realized that I could drop $100 without thinking about it (it's sad when that's your grocery basket and you didn't buy meat or convenience foods)... so, back to my student days. I just don't see this as something to aspire to.... and, it's a whole lot harder and grimmer. It's the lack of hope that gets you. Just be content with the basics and don't hope for anything more.

[LWolf]

145. I'd rather just abolish "insurance"

and guarantee FREE high quality care to everyone, regardless of income.

That's just me.

[area51]

162. Yes, the problem is with insurance,

along with healthcare in this country not being a right, but being rationed on wealth, instead of being a right like single-payer police and fire departments.

100,000 people die each year in this country because we don't consider healthcare a basic human right. Can you imagine what the death toll would be like if we also required people to buy insurance for police and fire protection? :think:

[Waiting For Everyman]

147. It might be a thought to help those making less than $24K/yr first.

Minimum wage is even well below that. And it's been that bad for decades. It's not all "kids", either. Some people have been hurting more and more, while everyone else was doing fine. Nobody has given them a second thought, and now it's time. And it's time to do that first. Anybody who works 40 hours per week should be able to afford the minimal cost of living. It isn't even close.

[cap]

151. the 50K guy has a huge advantage with health care premiums paid pre tax

and an employer contribution. if the $50K guy with a 4 bedroom house was paying for his healthcare AFTER tax instead of BEFORE tax, he would be adding on another 25% to his health care bill making it $700/month. On his income level, he would be howling up a storm. Pre tax vs After tax combined with an employer contribution makes a HUGE difference... add in the employer contribution and he is at about $800/month.

[lumberjack_jeff]

159. An advantage over whom? The six-figure OP? n/t

[SmileyRose]

166. 4 bedroom house?

I don't think I know anyone at my economic level who can afford to pay the entire cost of the medical care and a house that large also. Must be someplace where the cost of livng is a lot cheaper than where I live. :)

[LeftHander]

164. Tell them alot of good the 3% you saved in property tax is doing now...

They just don't get it...the middle class conservatives are trying to save the anvil when the ship is sinking.