So, OPEC cuts output to try and hold prices up?

[bigtree]

Iran, Libya and Venezuela are looking at their cash cow drying up and they're muscling OPEC to protect their record profits. Demand is still dropping, even as the prices have dropped, somewhat. That drop in demand should offset any upward effect on prices from any drop in production.

We do need to keep working on decreasing our demand, but I think we shouldn't lose sight of the upward effect on oil prices from the manipulative actions of these OPEC nations. That means that we need to either resign ourselves to the greed of these oil producers or take some immediate action to preserve the drop in demand in a way that is sustainable economically and functionally. Lower prices will eventually make consumers less concerned about conservation and keep us from taking the necessary steps toward fuel efficiency and alternatives.

OPEC is counting on our collective irresponsibility. Their agents will work to slow environmental and energy reforms. We need to keep reminding about the self-serving manipulations of these oil producers who will work to keep the cost of oil higher as we push forward with energy reforms.

[NNN0LHI]

1. US occupied Iraq is a member of OPEC. How did we vote?

[Swede]

2. OPEC is a rogues gallery of nations.

They like their swag.

[dweller]

3. when do we attack?

wait for it, the call will come. Amerka loves a good oil war.

dp

[bigtree]

6. well, that's the impetus behind aggression toward Iran and Venezuela.

. . . and the rapprochement with Libya. It's always about the oil.

Obama is still bullish on Iran, but I think we can expect him to deal with these pricing issues in a comprehensive way, not just muscling around.

[dweller]

12. it's the next 12 days

and the few months until Jan/09 that concerns me more...

i'll put my trust and faith in Obama/Biden to handle it correctly.
dp

[ThomWV]

4. Has it occured to anyone that they may be cutting production to match demand?

Why pump oil you will have to pay to store when there is no market for it? Elementry economics tells you that when the price is dropping its because production exceeds demand. Why would they want to continue to take oil out of the ground that no one wants to pay for?

[bigtree]

5. that's not what they said and I don't see the point in making excuses for them

They are SWIMMING in oil dollars.

"OPEC oil ministers decided to cut the quota during an emergency meeting in Vienna on Friday in an attempt to shore up sagging prices of oil."

"Officials indicated they would be ready to cut the quota further if the 1.5 million barrel reduction doesn't end the price freefall."

http://www.cbc.ca/canada/newfoundland-labrador/story/2008/10/24/opec-meeting.html

This is just about greed.

[kristopher]

7. Cutting production is the right move

If demand for ANY product is dropping, why wouldn't the producer of that product reduce production? When looked at objectively over the long term, having a glut of petroleum is as bad as having a shortage of petroleum.

I confess a bias - I want the price of gasoline to reflect the reality of the damage it is doing to the planet. I don't enjoy higher prices, but it is what the nation needs to shake us out of our unwillingness to address our over-dependence on fossil fuels.

[bigtree]

8. the damage to the economy from high oil and gas prices has been absolutely devastating

. . . affecting far more than just ordinary drivers; reaching into EVERY aspect of commerce.

Who would a 'glut' hurt? Oil producers profits, right?

[kristopher]

9. No

It hurts you, your children, and your childrens' children.

In the first place $3-4/gal gasoline ISN'T expensive. If you look at world prices for gasoline, it is still less than most other countries. So the real problems are caused by our over-dependence and wasteful habits. Sooner or later, the price MUST go up and we MUST adapt to those high prices. To ME (and I understand others have different priorities) the sooner we start adapting, the better. Climate change is real and we are already pushing the limits of what the planet can tolerate and still provide us a livable habitat.

I realize that immediate pain is more of a motivator for many people than problems that are proceeding invisibly; but the invisible problem this time is liable to be a might bit worse than anything humans have ever experienced.

[bigtree]

10. I live in America and the prices are devastating

And, the effect of those higher prices have had a sharp, negative effect on all goods we produce, sell and buy. It is just arrogant to talk about 'immediate pain' in the abstract as if these folks affected had any control over the forces manipulating the prices. We can certainly reduce demand, responsibly, through conservation and alternatives. But, until there is a comprehensive effort to implement sustainable and responsible measures to that effect, it's just arrogant to disregard those whose lives are subject to the speculation and mechanization of the market and act as if consumers should just concern themselves with conservation. We've ALREADY cut back on usage and affected the prices in a marginal way. I just don't see the manipulation of OPEC in protecting their profits having ANY positive relationship to the conservation you proscribe. The only thing which we can do, besides conserve, is to press for alternatives. That won't be realized overnight and, if OPEC and others are able to protect their profits then we, without any control at all over that except to conserve, are correct in pushing back against these artificial increases in the price.

I don't believe in punishing consumers or turning our backs on the economic pressures on consumers in the absence of a comprehensive effort toward alternatives everyone can afford and that industry can be expected to adapt to their transportation and energy needs.

[kristopher]

11. I live in America also

And being concerned about climate change over the immediate difficulties isn't arrogant, it simply reflects the ability to place long term needs into a context involving immediate gratification. If you think that the people in America are "suffering" then frankly, you don't know what the fuck suffering really means. Sure lots of people (including me) are having their *wants* go unfulfilled; but that is a whole world different than having our *real needs" go unfulfilled.

When was the last time you went three days without eating because you couldn't find any scraps in the garbage dump. To be blunt, yours is a fine example of the selfish, short-term thinking that has gotten us into and kept us in this mess.

[bigtree]

13. you can't sit on the other side of this cable that separates us and make such a judgment

. . . about the hardship these high prices have had on our economy. That's not just arrogant, it's ignorant. Without a comprehensive energy program IN PLACEwhich seriously advances alternatives, it's ludicrous and irresponsible to leave consumers at the mercy of oil producers and speculators and expect them to adequately provide a significant enough transformation away from dependence on oil and gas to make the differences you proscribe.

You've just witnessed the result of that with demand falling to the level that consumers can sustain and that reduction in demand affecting prices, and, you've seen the oil industry move to undo all of that with a wave of their hand. You're just selling a pipe dream expecting consumers to make a significant difference with their SACRIFICES without a comprehensive energy plan in place and having it actually achieving the conservation it intends.

[pitohui]

16. sorry but if all you expect us to want is to eat garbage every 3 days you don't speak to reality

you are not going to win friends and influence people by stupid talk like telling the poster he has no right to opinion because he never went hungry for 3 days

i've been homeless at two separate times of life

i went w.out health care for 15 fucking years

and i'm here to tell you that if you want to create this brave new world on the backs of the poor, you are 1) going to fail and 2) you deserve to fail

food and fuel need to be affordably priced, you cannot tell us that we're allowed to eat out of a garbage can every 3 days (!) before we're allowed to complain

i can't even believe you left such an ignorant post

do you WANT the economy to fail? do you WANT the environment to be destroyed? you need to get out more -- desperately poor people can't save the environment, they have no choice but to eat it all

the longer the ECONOMIC crisis continues, the less money, time, and research available to deal with the ENVIRONMENTAL crisis

[Leopolds Ghost]

18. We are not allowed to tell the world what is a reasonable price for a finite resource

It doesn't work. Gas is crashing because we are in a deflationary
depression, no other reason. People are NOT driving less, they're simply
making fewer shopping trips.

"The poor" (and the rich) will have to learn to be less dependent on auto
or suffer the consequences that our neo-colonial subjects in the third
world have already been suffering for 30 years at the behest of US
economic policies designed to keep gas unnaturally cheap at home and
expensive abroad (thanks to the petrodollar).

[bigtree]

21. OPEC has demonstrated that they are perfectly capable of increasing production

Sep 20, 2005 ... Oil group Opec will release an extra 2 million barrels of oil a day in an effort to ease crude price pressures.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/4264642.stm

And, it has been instability in spots like Nigeria which has put upward pressure on prices. The U.S. aggression toward Venezuela had a lot to do with the 20% drop in shipments from them. A responsible foreign policy would also help to keep the speculation from driving prices upward.

It's just not credible to put all of the problem down to a 'finite' supply.

And, there is other consumption which is much more relevant and necessary than 'shopping trips' which represents the sacrifices on the nation. Commerce has suffered; putting pressure on the price of whatever goods are involved.

[Leopolds Ghost]

14. Bigtree, you are being foolish to tell other countries what they should do with their oil.

Peak oil has been reached. The natural summer demand equilibrium for a growing economy is above $100. Demand destruiction has been reached only because we are in a deflationary economic death spiral which is unwinding the petrodollar. When demand drops despite falling prices, that should tip you off that something is wrong. That only happens when a product is at the end of its lifespan. Oil peaked two years ago and the vast majority of American DUers are fools to believe they are somehow different and better than Europe and Asia and somehow deserve expansive, energy wasting 8-lane highways fueled by cheaper energy than the rest of the world gets.

[bigtree]

17. I actually believe our general economic decline had a lot to do with the drop in demand

A good part of that economic decline was, of course, high energy prices. I don't attribute that to 'peak oil'. Evidently, there is enough oil to push production up. They've done that recently. And I don't believe there's any visible evidence that the drop in production they seek is anything but an effort to preserve their record profits.

While true that we can't overtly dictate prices or production to these countries, we can certainly influence those by conservation and a move to alternatives. But, I'm not convinced that we don't have any influence or shouldn't exert any influence on these oil producing nations which expect to benefit from the lucrative U.S. market; not just in oil, but benefiting from other trade and normalization of relationships as well.

Until there is a comprehensive effort to move decisively to alternatives and conservation, we will need to be as demanding as we are able to keep suppliers from manipulating prices upwards. That might not suit the sensibilities of folks who want to blame consumers first for an oil economy they have little control over, but it's also not unheard of for a customer to bargain and press for a better price. I expect our government to be aggressive in that until there actually is some sustainable and responsible alternative in place. I don't advocate leaving consumers completely at the mercy of these oil producing nations and their artificial manipulations.

[Leopolds Ghost]

20. A Democratic Party that refuses to consider subways an acceptable alternative in inner cities

Which is what we are faced with today, ultra-liberals who refuse to invest in rapid rail mass transit.

Those people are in no position to lead us to alternatives.

Their idea of an alternative is T. Boone Pickens, the swift boat architect, who wants us to strip-mine Alberta and convert 500 million cars to CNG.

[pitohui]

15. yeah they're a cartel that tries to gouge us, who knew???

i've been saying it all along, the prices were being manipulated, people prefered to beat the drum for "big oil" by crying "peak oil" and all they succeeded in doing was putting a lot of windfall profit in "big oil" pockets

the bubble had to burst, you can't get blood from a turnip and they were pretty much draining people of EVERYTHING

[Subdivisions]

19. It's their oil. Not their fault we built our entire existance around it. n/t

[bigtree]

22. but, here we are

I'm not going to advocate that we just lay down in the road or mothball our autos and tractor-trailers until we can manage sustainable and responsible alternatives. We need to work on the manipulation of prices; on the speculation pressures; and on alternatives and conservation . . . all at the same time.