Ok..what heck is Messianic Judaism.

[dixiegrrrrl]

Found this term in a fascinating New Yorker piece on how Palin really came to be the VP choice.

http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2008/10/27/081027fa_fact_mayer

Worth the read.
On p. 2 there comes the term Messianic Judaism.

[WillParkinson]

1. Jews who believe in the messiah...

One of the guys I used to work with (young black man) was from a family with this belief.

[rockymountaindem]

3. All Jews believe in the messiah

in the sense that the belief that the messiah will one day come is a key tenet of Judaism. "Messianic Judaism" is a fancy term for the group generally known as "Jews for Jesus".

[JerseygirlCT]

11. Yes. An offshoot of Christianity that pretends to be Jewish, really

Follows some of the Jewish dietary laws, etc. But the theology is quite Christ-centered, and they definitely prozelytize.

[Taverner]

2. Jews for Jesus

Jews who believe Christ is the Messiah, but observe Jewish Tradition

And yes, they're in deep with the fundies

[Uncle Joe]

4. When you think about, I suppose Jesus would fit under this faith

as he believed he was the Christ, while observing Jewish Tradition.

[Taverner]

6. If he existed

:evilgrin:

[Sebastian Doyle]

7. Of course He did!

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=105x106088

[jeff30997]

18. Lol!

Thanks.I was searching for a link to that thread the other night.That's a classic.:rofl:

[dixiegrrrrl]

25. thank you for that link, I did not see it originally. It was one of the best on DU.

edit=spelling

[Uncle Joe]

13. If he didn't exist, that would be the greatest hoax in human history.

Personally I believe he did exist and I believe in his overall message of love, compassion, forgiveness and the original version of the Golden Rule.

As to the miracles, I'm not as certain.

I also believe he was the son of God but I believe the same thing of you.:)

[Taverner]

19. There is ample evidence that he did not exist...

But neither side is really provable.

[Uncle Joe]

20. If neither side is provable, then I guess

it's just a matter of faith.

[Taverner]

24. True

Although to me Faith is dangerous and leads perfectly fine people to fly planes into buildings...

[Uncle Joe]

27. Just as fire is both dangerous and necessary for human existence.

Faith in general is a requirement, or people would be afraid to get out of bed.

Like most anything it can be abused by those that lust for power, but I believe this is more a statement against power rather than faith.

[Taverner]

30. You are confusing faith with hope

Hope is saying "I have hope today will be better than yesterday. I cannot prove this, and I am not sure of it, but I feel as if today will be better"

Faith is saying "I know today will be better because its true, even though there is no evidence to prove it"

Hope is necessary

Faith is dangerous

[Uncle Joe]

34. According to Webster's Dictionary.

One definition of faith is "anything believed", not necessarily unquestioning.

In my book if faith and hope aren't siblings, they're at least kissing cousins, they spring from the same DNA, a distinction without a difference.

As I stated in an earlier post, I believe Jesus was the son of God as I believe you are, but I questioned as to whether the miracles happened.

I am of the belief faith has degrees which are balanced by reason, and fear, they're all requirements for human survival.

In his book "The Assault on Reason" Al Gore equates Faith, Reason and Fear to a game of rock, paper and scissors. Faith trumps fear, fear trumps reason and reason trumps faith.

[Taverner]

35. But faith, by its very definition, is belief without evidence

Because by that definition, I have faith that there is a mailbox out my window.

But it isn't faith, I can prove this. I can provide evidence. So even though I believe that there is a mailbox out my window, that doesn't mean I have faith there is; rather, I have evidence.

[Uncle Joe]

36. So is hope. n/t

[Taverner]

37. But hoping for something is not the same as believing in something

I hope that when I go for a jog today, I won't trip on that #@$! bump in the road this time.

That does not mean I believe it to be true.

[Uncle Joe]

38. If you didn't believe the plane wouldn't crash, you would never get on it. n/t

[Taverner]

39. But that's not faith - that's belief with evidence

You can look at the airline's records, the statistics of plane crashes, and you can deduce through reasoning that you are safer on a plane than you are driving your own car.

Dammit, this conversation needs a pot of coffee!

[Uncle Joe]

40. Yes but evidence also comes in degrees,

for some the Bible is enough evidence, while for some it is not.

Airline records and statistics of plane crashes may be enough evidence for you to fly, but some people would never get on a plane, Willie Nelson comes to mind as one person afraid of flying.

[Taverner]

44. But that's an irrational fear

And Willie would be the first person to call it that!

A phobia

[Uncle Joe]

45. So is the fear of faith.

There are a billion plus Muslims and the vast majority of them would never high jack or fly an airplane in to a building.

In an earlier post you cited the ones that did as evidence that faith is dangerous and should be feared.

Of course this doesn't take in to account the billion plus Christians, Jews, and Hindus around world.

In short, the point I'm trying to make goes to an old adage "Power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely".

It's is the lust for power that led those men to fly the planes in to the World Trade Center, not faith.

1. The first lust for power was committed by the United States against parts of the world, that we have no business in dominating, this goes back to the late 19th century, when some say we became an empire.

2. The second lust for power was committed by the leaders of Al Qaueda, whose true wish is to dominate the Islamic world and were more than happy to kill innocent people to further their ends.

It is the lust for power that fuels the Madrassas, not faith, if it were faith, they wouldn't be afraid of teaching critical thinking, faith conquers fear, not the other way around.

[Taverner]

46. I just disagree

Anytime you say "the reality in my head (Christianity, Buddhism, Islam, Judaism, etc) is more real than the reality we have evidence for" is taking a leap that should not be taken.

At that point you base your thoughts in willful delusion, rather than reason. I should know, I used to be a Christian.

[Uncle Joe]

47. I'm not saying faith is anymore real than reason,

they each have their place.

I am saying the lust for power is the true culprit.

Hitler didn't use faith to mobilize the German people to wage war, he used reason, based on the science of Eugenics.

Anything can be abused by those in power with evil intent.

Peace to you, Taverner.

[Taverner]

48. Peace to you too Brother Uncle Joe!

But I don't think Hitler used only science - in fact his science was seriously flawed in terms of evidence.

He used emotion in his rallies (see Triumph of the Will)

Stalin used science as well, in a flawed way.

Problem is they made their leaps from reason to psychosis using faith.


BTW...I like this conversation. People need to have MORE conversations like this, In My Opinion.

[jeff30997]

22. I'm pretty convinced that...

There was a guy named Jesus that was a spiritual leader and a menace to the establishment

who was crucified almost 2000 years ago.I consider all the magical mumbo jumbo as

pure fantasy.

[mitchum]

49. If he did exist, he was probably schizophrenic

[foo_bar]

60. Jews for Jesus is an evangelical Christian movement (to convert Jews, natch)

The guy in the NYer piece is a Christian who deemed himself Jewish, so Messianic Judaism appears in scare quotes ("Brickley’s family, once evangelical Christians, now practice what he calls “Messianic Judaism.” They believe that Jesus is the Messiah, but they also observe the Jewish holidays and attend synagogue" pg2), "what he calls" Judaism is an old testament revivalist movement within Christianity (I once worked beside an Assembly of Goddite preacher (Palin's church) who wore yarmulke and t'fillin and chanted English translations of Hebrew, then proceeded to eat a ham 'n cheese sandwich, since Leviticus is in Hebrew I guess). It gets a little angels-on-a-pin when the chief doctrinal difference between Christianity and Judaism is Christ, but there are real offshoots/schisms within Judaism that are considered Messianic without involving Christian missionary work and scare quotes:

On Menachem Mendel Schneerson's accession to the post of Rebbe a year after his father-in-law's death, he began turning the movement into a powerful force in Jewish life. His policies led to the establishment of Chabad institutions in over 900 cities around the world. He inspired many of his followers to dedicate their life's work to Chabad by talking of the impending messianic redemption.<30>

His regular talk of the coming of the messiah-- and what some say are hints that he was to be the long promised saviour of the Jews-- led to the emergence of the idea that he was going to reveal himself as the messiah. This belief - first openly professed by Shalom Dov Wolpo<33> in a 1984 book became commonplace within the movement in the years leading up to his death.<34>

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chabad

[leftchick]

64. yes they are synonymous

My sister and BIL are Jews for Jesus and they are closely aligned with the Messianic Jews. Jews in quotes here because NO Traditional Jewish Rabbi or congregation recognizes their "cult". They are nothing more than an offshoot of raging fundamentalists trying to convert as many to Jesus before the Rapture. Like they get points or something. :eyes:

[KamaAina]

5. An offshoot of Judaism which believes the Messiah has already arrived, in the person of Jesus Christ

not necessarily "Jews for Jesus", thank goodness. JfJ is a cult; messianic Judaism need not be. Messianic Jews resemble Orthodox Jews in being strictly observant about things like keeping Kosher and the Sabbath.

From what I understand, it wasn't really that great of a leap philosophically for the Brickleys to go from fundies to messianic Jews. On the other hand, the only one I know is full-on for Obama, and would doubtless be gobsmacked to find that one of his co-religionists started this whole Bible Spice thing. :eyes:

[CC]

8. I know two and they are both for Obama.

They are very strong Obama supports. They said the majority of the people they worship with are just as strongly for Obama. I don't know much about the religion itself and haven't really ask them much about it. Since I am in a red red area I was happy to hear so many were strong Obama supporters.

[JerseygirlCT]

12. Almost all Jews would quibble with that "offshoot of Judaism"

part, as a belief in Jesus as the messiah is definitely NOT part of Judaism.

[KamaAina]

21. Well, all I can tell you is the guy I know always wears a yarmulke

won't participate in events such as board meetings on Shabbos, etc. He certainly considers himself to be a Jew.

edit: not eating pork, shellfish, etc. is much easier when one is a vegetarian :-)

[JerseygirlCT]

58. Yup. These people consider *themselves* to be Jewish -

but the rest of the Jewish community does not, as their beliefs are definitely not Jewish.

It's often quite a point of contention, in fact.

[bklyngrl60]

17. I'm sorry but Messianic Judiasm is not an offshoot of Judiasm, it's an offshoot of fundamental

Christianity. My experience is that it's comprised of Christians who having aleady accepted the belief that the Messiah has already arrived in the form of Jesus of Nazareth, believe in the imminent "second" coming and have adopted many Jewish observances (Saturday Sabbath, High Holy Day observances, dietary laws). It dovetails with Jews for Jesus and the groups frequently have overlapping agendas - it's very very common for speakers from Jews for Jesus to be heard at Messianic Jewish services, meetings, etc.

The original base of Jews for Jesus are in fact, Jews who came from traditional Jewish backgrounds (the sister of a girl I went to HS with is one of the original members and remains so to this day). I'm not sure how they're viewed by established Jewish denominations.

[PatGund]

52. Two words....

...they're not.

To clairify, they're seen as a Christian group, not a Jewish group.

[Madam Mossfern]

51. Messianic Judaism is not

an offshoot of Judaism by any account.

[Burma Jones]

9. The most effective thing a Jewish Child can do to get back at their Parents.....

[Karenina]

41. AAAGGGHHHH! COUGH!!! SPEW!!!

MY KEYBOARD!!! :rofl::rofl::rofl:

[WeDidIt]

10. There's a WORD for Messianic Judaism

Christianity.

[Uncle Joe]

16. Except, Christians don't observe Jewish Tradition. n/t

[WeDidIt]

23. That's true, Christians mostly observe Pagan holidays.

:evilgrin:

[Uncle Joe]

26. Ironically, that's true as well.

:)

[JerseygirlCT]

59. There's nothing in following most of those traditions that

puts a Christian in opposition to Christian belief or tradition, however.

But "messianic Judaism" is most certainly a refutation of Judaism.

[TZ]

32. Yep.

Its the original have their cake and eat it too religion.

[Lifetimedem]

14. Christians that live like observant Jews

They follow the Jewish holidays and Jewish practices..

[justiceischeap]

15. From Messianic Bureau International / Messianic Jewish Super Site:

1. YESHUA IS MESSIAH AND L-RD
   Messianic Judaism started with Yeshua (Jesus of Nazareth) as His Jewish followers accepted the evidence that He was the promised Messiah (Anointed One) of Israel, and as the scriptures foretold, He also was the God of Israel in the flesh, YHVH, the L-RD, who died for sins according to Isaiah 53, then rose again according to the Psalms and the Prophets. The believers in Yeshua were called Notzrim (Nazarenes), which Christians are called in modern Hebrew today. However, there is that faction today who call themselves Notzrim and say they believe in Yeshua, but they do not accept Him as appearing as God Himself in the flesh. Most of Messianic Judaism does not accept them as true believers because of their denial.


2. BIBLICAL MESSIANIC JUDAISM IS VALID CONTEMPORARY JUDAISM
   Since the first Jewish followers of Yeshua never left the faith of the God of Israel, YHVH, but rather came into a more personal covenant with Him through trust in Messiah Yeshua, their faith was and is the only complete Biblical Judaism and thus a superior Judaism. This is because Messiah Yeshua is the promised deliverer from sin and completed the understanding of the Torah (His ancient Word) that was lacking. However, this does not mean that modern Rabbinical Judaism does not have truth within it.


3. YESHUA DID NOT BEGIN ANOTHER RELIGION
   Since Yeshua is God in the flesh, He is the eternal God of Israel, who gave all holy things only to Israel and promised them for all time. He did not come to reject Israel or to take back what He promised, but only to fulfill what He promised, without taking away any promise to Israel. He came to make Israel a better Israel, not to start another religion. This "better Israel" was foretold through the Prophet Yirmiyahu (Jeremiah) in 31:31, which was the promise of a new covenant that would put the Torah and the Ruach (Spirit) of God into Israel as an indwelling new creation. Since He is God of all, Yeshua also came to allow anyone of the Gentiles who trust in Him as the Messiah of Israel to be grafted into Israel by way of that same new covenant in Him. This better Israel Yeshua called His "Miqra" in Hebrew, which means "Called Out." It is "Ekklesia" in the Greek.


4. THE CHURCH NEEDS TO RETURN TO ITS ROOTS
   Since Messianic Judaism is Jewish, it deems all Jewish people as its siblings. Also, since Christianity professes the Jewish Messiah as their Savior, Messianic Judaism deems all faithful Gentiles as its siblings (and no longer to be pagan Gentiles). This does not mean Messianic Judaism agrees with all the doctrines, traditions, customs or practices of either traditional Judaism or Christianity. We believe it would be the best and is ultimately necessary for all Jewish people to know their Messiah Yeshua, but we do not believe that God has called any Jewish person to become Gentile or Western Christian in custom. Rather, we believe it would be best and is ultimately necessary for Christianity to remove its pagan influences and return to the roots of Judaism, that is, to return to the way of Yeshua as He walked by example and set forth in His entire Word.


5. JEWISH PEOPLE AS A WHOLE HAVE NOT REJECTED YESHUA
   By the end of the first century over one million Jews believed Yeshua to be the Messiah of Israel, but many of them, if not most, were martyred or driven underground because of anti-Semitism both within secular and religious society. This eventually precipitated the lie that a Jewish person does not believe in Yeshua as Messiah. Today there is estimated to be more than one million Jewish people who believe in Yeshua as the Messiah. In addition, the rejection of Christianity by some Jewish people is not necessarily a rejection of Yeshua. It is rather the rejection of a Gentile religion, which has little in common with the Jewish Messiah. Because a Jewish person does not want to be a Catholic or a Baptist does not mean they reject Yeshua. Christian denominations have little in common with the life, faith, customs or worship experience of Yeshua. Messianic Judaism affirms the eternal Jewishness of Yeshua ("The Lion of the Tribe of Judah") and that He did not come to destroy Jewishness. Therefore, those who attempt to destroy Jewishness are not of Him; they are not at all true followers of Him. In fact, to deny the Jewishness of Messiah is to deny the truth of the Scriptures. To oppose the Jewish people, simply because they are Jewish, is to distrust the appointment of God and hate the very Messiah of Israel. In other words, wholesale anti-Semitism or anti-Judaism is demonic.


6. RESTORATION OF JEWISH FAITH IS PROPHETIC
   God promised to restore Israel, "as at the beginning." The apostle Kefa (Peter) announced that Yeshua would not return until the "restoration of all things spoken by the prophets since the world began", Acts 3:21. This makes everything in the ancient Scriptures concerning the restoration of Israel of contemporary importance, especially as we see it happening. The restoration of the land, the language, the people, and the faith of Israel are all taking place as foretold in the prophets of Israel. The prophecies concerning the world's obedience to the laws of Israel ("the Law shall go forth from Zion") are beginning to be restored today, as believers in Yeshua rediscover the beauty of the Sabbath and the holy festivals, which the Bible declares will be observed by every nation in the Messianic Kingdom.


7. MESSIANIC JUDAISM IS NOT MONOLITHIC OR HUMAN-CENTRIC
   Unlike most religious expressions, Messianic Judaism cannot be traced to any other person except Yeshua. There is no contemporary founder or leader. No one speaks for all Messianics. It is not monolithic, and thus this writer must admit that other Messianics may take issue with some of my points, or at least may choose to word them differently. That is just fine with me. I will confess freely that I certainly do not speak for all Messianics. However, even with differences in expression, Messianics generally have no trouble fellowshipping together, and understanding the general direction in which the movement is going. This freedom is refreshing and unique, and one which most Messianics appreciate deeply. While Messianics hold to their faith and walk tenaciously without compromise, they are usually remarkably tolerant and loving to others who especially are sincere and honest in their faith.

http://www.messianic.com/articles/basics.htm

[enuegii]

28. Does Messianic Judaism have any relationship...

with the early Ebionite christians, or is it a separate, more recent development?

[Xithras]

54. No, the Ebonites were a little different.

If I recall correctly, the Ebonites were Jews who believed that Jesus was a prophet anointed by God, similar to Moses et al. They didn't believe that he was the messiah or the son of God, which divides them from both mainstream Christianity and Messianic Jews.

There couldn't be any connection anyway. The Ebonites were slaughtered by the Romans when they burned Jerusalem, and it's not believed that any survived in Israel. Sects elsewhere were absorbed into other religions or died out over time.

On edit: By the way, it's interesting to note that Muhammad was known to have had contact with an Ebonite Jewish sect that lived outside of Medina, and may have had some Ebonites within his own family. Why is this interesting? Because the modern Muslim view of Jesus is nearly identical to that held by the now-extinct Ebonites. For those who don't believe in divine revelation, it's an interesting coincidence.

[SteppingRazor]

29. It's a bullshit con job by fundie Christians to get Jews to convert. n/t

[TZ]

31. Idiotic people who want to be "Christian"

but continue the traditions of Jews. The most annoying group EVER! Just call yourselves Christians already! You can't have it both ways fools!..If you can find any one of Jewish descent that doesn't find these people annoying asshats I'd be surprised.

[SteppingRazor]

33. Eh, I don't blame the Jews taken in by it as much as I blame the fundamentalist Christians behind it

Like any other cult, I blame the manipulative cult leader before blaming the people duped by him or her.

Though, certainly, it is a bit grating. And, yeah, Jewish people I know do find the whole thing annoying to say the least. (And being married to a Jew, I know a lot of'em! :) )

[rucky]

43. They're the most annoying hats on the ass.

no doubt about it.

[mmonk]

42. Fundamentalist Christians.

[Danmel]

50. I'm a Mick for Moses

So one day, my brother, his fried Frank Gribbon and i went to Yankee Stadium to see a game. The Jews for Jesus were out handing out their fliers and they tried to give on to Frank. He said "Jews for Jesus? No thanks, I'm a Mick for Moses!"

[Dorian Gray]

53. I live on the border of Crown Heights

Today while driving down Eastern Parkway, there were signs all over the place about The Messiah is here. This section, I believe, is nothing like Jews for Jesus. They are strictly Orthodox Jews (Lubuvitch, perhaps) who follow different Messianic leaders. The Rebbe is one of them, but there are others. Each group has a different Messianic leader, though.


ETA: In relation to that article, however, they are referring to Jews for Jesus, a group of Christians who "converted" to the Jewish lifestyle while espousing Jesus as the Messiah.

[dixiegrrrrl]

55. I learn so much from all of you on DU...thank you for your answers.

What a great group of brains, experience, and humor we have at this site.

give your selves a hand.....:thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:


spelling edit

[Uncle Joe]

56. We rock!!

:applause: :yourock: :applause: :yourock:

Edit for P.S. Thanks for the thread, dixiegrrrrl.

[proud patriot]

57. I learned from this thread too, thanks for the great question

:)

[prayin4rain]

61. Jewish people who are christians. n/t

[immoderate]

62. It's called masochism.

Christians don't like them because they're Jewish. And Jews don't like them because they believe in Jesus. It's victimization² (squared.)

--IMM

[jmowreader]

63. It's part of what it will take to get Jesus to come back

There's a laundry list of things that signal the Second Coming. One of them is an en masse conversion of the Jews to Christianity. The red heifer someone's trying to genetically engineer is in there too.