"You must be this tall to ride this ride."

[Cerridwen]

Has anyone or everyone seen those signs at the various disney parks? The idea being that to safely ride the ride you must be of a certain size in order to not be harmed. Yes?

After 4 or 5 threads in GD today about an 8 year old boy who lost control of an Uzi and died, those disney signs kept coming into my head.

This isn't about old enough or mature enough or guns versus knives. It's about having the physical ability to be able to control a tool (or weapon) and the strength or size to remain in control.

In my life, I would never have allowed a small child to do many legal things that are safe for larger children without up close and "in your face" adult supervision. Cooking comes to mind. Doing dishes. Climbing ladders carrying a gallon of paint (which they probably couldn't heft in the first place). Carving a pumpkin. Driving a car or tractor (I have farmers in my family). Swimming. Spray painting. Chain saws. Hammers. Hell, ironing clothes (do people still do that?).

If they don't have the hand/eye coordination and the physical ability or strength to control the tool, WTF are they doing handling it?

It's not about age or even necessarily, maturity, it's simply about size and control.

My apologies for yet one more thread about this. But it amazes me we're talking politics of gun ownership and whether or not parents should allow their children to handle guns. 'Scuse me? WTF are parents and other adults doing allowing small children to handle ANY tool beyond the child's size and ability to control? This isn't just guns. This is about what in my family was called "common sense." Yeah, I know the jokes. You don't have to coddle them. But for crying out loud, at least acknowledge they're little.

I just had to vent. Thanks for reading.

[BlooInBloo]

1. Pfft. If EVERY 8 year old kid had an Uzi, then they're REALLY be safe...

Everybody knows that.

[Cerridwen]

2. Not I. I guess that makes it "everybody" - 1. n/t

[bhbwl]

13. The only good news to come out of this...

...is that on Jan 21, we won't have to worry about this any more. Certainly not by the first 100 days.

This time, with a Democrat in the White House and supermajorities in both houses, we can finish the job and make it STICK.

No more compromising. No more mollycoddling. The gun cult has proven it can't behave and play nice with their toys. So, it's time for mom to come in, take away the toy, and put them in time out for a while.

And put the toy in the trash.

[Cerridwen]

14. Oh, goodie. Another authoritarian, punitive Democrat.

Welcome to DU.

eta: I've looked at some of your other posts. Are you for real or are you doing a parody?

[bhbwl]

15. so you're okay with inbred Repukes giving guns to their kids

They've proven time and time again that they can't behave. Don't you think it's time to just stop the insanity once and for all? How many more kids have to die?

It's bad enough that cops have to have guns, because they'll inevitably make mistakes too. So we have to live with that. But civilians blowing each other and themselves away is so easily preventable. And yet Repukes insist on letting folks run around with all kinds of ordnance, despite the insane cost.

Thank goodness we've FINALLY got the chance to fix this and keep it fixed.

[Cerridwen]

16. I bet you get a lot of exercise jumping to conclusions the way you do.

Try re-reading the OP then my reply to you.

[bhbwl]

17. I'm just tired...

I'm tired of reading about kids on the South Side getting gunned down for being next to a guy on a bus.

I'm tired of kids shooting each other and themselves.

I'm tired of grownups shooting each other, missing, and hitting little kids.

I'm tired of grownups killing creatures with only teeth and claws and thinking it makes 'em a man.

I'm tiredo f grownups sending kids to go do their killing for them.

I'm tired of it all. I'd like it to stop. I'd like someone to make it stop.

But it's not gonna, so long as we insist on treating a bunch of immature, inbred racists as if they were real adults.

Come on! We're talking about people who insist on the right to kill things. If you came across a kid asserting the right to pull the wings off flies, you'd think that was a pretty messed up kid, wouldn't you?

So we let them run around with their guns, let them spew their hate-speech, let them VOTE AND HOLD OFFICE, ferpetesake, all because of what? Because they've managed to hold a pulse for 18 years?

Forgive me if I've offended anyone here, but it strikes me that there's little real difference between Repuke political philosophy and the juvenile cruelty of pulling wings off flies. Both have at their foundation the principle that a person can be heartlessly greedy and cruel, just because he's bigger and can get away with it.

[Cerridwen]

21. So am I. So am I.

Mostly I'm tired of people so simple minded they can thing only in jingoistic, right/wrong platitudes.

If I weren't so tired, I'd show you some rage, some anger about what I think of those people.

Right now...I don't have the energy to deal with another Democrat who thinks punishment and authoritarianism are the ways to fix all the problems of the world. I don't have the energy to deal with yet another, who spouts beliefs that would look at home on any r/w, hate-filled site if only the words Democrat and republican were switched. I just don't have the time or energy to address another power-hungry poster who thinks in such simplistic, short-term solutions to long term problems or who thinks having power-over others is the be-all and end-all of politics.

Maybe in the morning. For now, I'm too tired to do rage.

[plaintiff]

37. Here's what *I* am tired of: authoritarian assholes who think the Bill of Rights ends

right after the First Amendment.

[benEzra]

26. Ummm...

It's bad enough that cops have to have guns, because they'll inevitably make mistakes too. So we have to live with that. But civilians blowing each other and themselves away is so easily preventable. And yet Repukes insist on letting folks run around with all kinds of ordnance, despite the insane cost.

Ummm...



You might want to revisit your assumption that gun ownership is a "repub thing," and that most Dems want to sharply curtail lawful and responsible gun ownership. The repubs would certainly like people to believe that, though.

[Morning Dew]

24. wrong

nm

[Ikonoklast]

41. So, swimming pools will be banned?

More children die from drowning in this country than from guns.

But, you better ban cars first. They're the number one cause of juvenile death.

[Stinky The Clown]

3. "Macho Macho Man"

That's what went through my mind.

I'm sure every family has warm memories of the little tykes shooting Uzis with Dad.

"He's grown up just like me." (<--- makes sense only when out of its Cat Stevens' song context.)

[donco6]

5. Harry Chapin, silly! n/t

[Stinky The Clown]

6. ooops .... yer right.

[donco6]

7. He did sound a lot like Cat Stevens.

It's a common mistake. Just had to pimp you about it.

[Cerridwen]

8. Is that what it is? Is that what this kind of playing with guns as if they

were toys insanity is? Trying to prove a person's young child is "macho" enough, "manly" enough to play with the big boys? What kind of perverted view of "masculinity" or "toughness" does someone have to have to put a small child into...

Sorry - I went into rant mode again.

Thanks, Husb2Sparkly. I understand what you're saying. But, I don't "get" it. I truly don't.

Not that it's hugely important, but are you referring to "Cat's in the Cradle" by Harry Chapan? That song just makes me sad. My dad didn't get to be old and I was never going to grow up "just like him" even if he had. Okay, going to find a joke thread before I explode into rage or tears.

[Tumbulu]

4. I am with you

good points. I wonder what the whole story is.....me the mom is always saying "let's not go any higher in that tree, do you feel like a bird?"..... her dad is always saying "Oh don't be silly, that is not too high up, trees are safe."

[Cerridwen]

9. Thank you.

I was starting to feel...I dunno, like a worry wart. Which I am. But damn! Guns!

I learned to shoot with only those I could handle without winding up on my backside. I had to choke-up on the bat when I was learning to play baseball. My dad had to get on his knees to teach me how to box when I was 8 or 9. I learned a lot of those un-safe things but they were taught to me so I could learn without hurting myself in the process.

I didn't do tree climbing. I did back-flips in the middle of the street on the asphalt. We roller-skated on the sidewalk without knee pads or helmets. We played tackle football on tiny yards of grass without padding or helmets. My dad earned his gray hairs. So did my mom. :D

[katandmoon]

10. But gun worshippers have no common sense whatsoever

Guns are more sacred to them then human life. They'd rather an 8-year-old blow his head off with an Uzi than that anything be done to prevent that 8-year-old from blowing his head off with that Uzi. Because if you prevent an 8-year-old from being able to blow his head off with an Uzi, the next thing you know, they'll be coming for YOUR Uzi.

[KG]

11. well, that pretty much sums it up:

'Guns are more sacred to them then human life'

[Cerridwen]

12. Do you mean to tell me that "gun worshippers" would allow a small

child to do the things I listed in my OP? Or are they just about letting their kids handle guns that are beyond their capabilities?

You paint with a broad brush.

I come from a "gun worshipper" family. Hunters, farmers and ranchers along with a few city-folk and a couplea cops and some military. My family had plenty of common sense. I was small and was taught to shoot with guns and rifles I could handle for my size. I don't care for guns. I handle them with as much care as I'm able.

I don't, however, hand small children any tool beyond their control. I read now where the father of the child is an ER doc. I wonder if he would have allowed his son to play with scalpels and needles. There was a serious and deadly lack of common sense in this instance. I don't see it applies specifically to guns.

That, was my point.

[Richard Steele]

18. If I ever meet anyone who worships guns, I'll keep that in mind.

Hyperbolic much? :eyes:

[Cerridwen]

19. I'm thinking about putting one on my altar.

I'll put it right next to a chain saw between the incense and the "Charge of the Goddess."

That ought to make the Goddess happy, ya think?

Oy.

Binary thinking hurts my head and makes me tired.

[Forkboy]

20. I've met a few, but they were hardly what I would consider your typical gun owner.

I used to travel in some weird, less than legal circles. :)

[Cerridwen]

22. Do tell. Were they repubs or Democrats?

Nope, I'm not kidding. That seems to be the simplistic explanation for the "great divide."

My guess would be neither and both and that they were more concerned with power and money than politics and policy.

[Forkboy]

23. Apolitcal knuckleheads.

And it was all about money money money.

I'm not a fan of guns myself (fired some handguns, didn't really like the feeling it gave me, and I was a big fan of hand to hand stuff anyways), but I've known a lot of totally responsible hunters and gun owners.

There's a lot of guns and a lot of idiots in this country. Their paths are bound to cross often, but that doesn't mean all gun owners are idiots. My experience with both the good and the bad side of gun owners has led to total mixed feelings on the issue.

[benEzra]

27. Ummm...

But gun worshippers have no common sense whatsoever

Guns are more sacred to them then human life. They'd rather an 8-year-old blow his head off with an Uzi than that anything be done to prevent that 8-year-old from blowing his head off with that Uzi. Because if you prevent an 8-year-old from being able to blow his head off with an Uzi, the next thing you know, they'll be coming for YOUR Uzi.

Ummm, Uzis and all other machineguns have been tightly controlled since 1934, and the non-LEO civilian market was shut down completely in 1986.

http://www.cs.cmu.edu/afs/cs/usr/wbardwel/public/nfalist/nfa_faq.txt

Machineguns are as tightly controlled in the United States as explosives and howitzers. But heaven forbid facts should get in the way of a good hatefest...

[benEzra]

28. .

[benEzra]

25. Agreed. And a full-auto Micro Uzi is about the worst of all possible firearms for a child to shoot.

They are quite small, challenging for even experienced adults to control in long bursts, are extremely "flippy" under recoil, AND have almost no surface for a guide/mentor to have his hands on the gun or help control it during recoil if it gets out of hand. Even a Beretta 93R would be easier to control.

[gollygee]

29. Doesn't it seem like experts at a gun show would know that?

As I said in another thread about this, I am not anti-guns. I'm from Michigan. Almost everyone I know has guns. Most people I know hunt. We don't have guns but we're in the minority on that.

But my goodness wouldn't they know that there might be a better activity, even a better shooting activity, for children than that?

[plaintiff]

33. Why is there so much emphasis on what "they" did and so little on the fact the kid's dad

not only allowed it but presumably paid the fee for him? I'm all for reasonable protections being provided by the state or school or other controlling authority but NOT in lieu of proper supervision and responsibility of parents. Just how much control over our kids are we prepared to relinquish?

[gollygee]

34. They are both responsible

The father should have known better. If he goes to gun shows, it seems likely he'd know enough about guns to know that it wasn't an appropriate activity for a child. But whoever runs that event has a responsibility to make sure they don't have ridiculously dangerous activities for children. Handing an uzi off to a child isn't OK regardless of whether the child is being supervised. And whoever owns a gun has some responsibility over whom he/she hands it to. If I own a really sharp knife and I hand it to a 2-year-old, I don't care if the parent is there or not, I have some responsibility if (or WHEN) the 2-year-old gets hurt.

[benEzra]

38. Absolutely. That is the real puzzle.

Doesn't it seem like experts at a gun show would know that?

As I said in another thread about this, I am not anti-guns. I'm from Michigan. Almost everyone I know has guns. Most people I know hunt. We don't have guns but we're in the minority on that.

But my goodness wouldn't they know that there might be a better activity, even a better shooting activity, for children than that?

Absolutely, they should have known better. A tripod-mounted M1919, or even an M16 from the bench with a few rounds in the magazine and an instructor's hand on the forend, would have been safe. A Micro Uzi most assuredly is NOT.

My daughter is 7 and will probably shoot a .22LR this winter. In a year or two, perhaps a small centerfire rifle like an AR-15 or my SAR-1, from the bench at first. But a machinegun---one known to be challenging for adults to shoot---and which is too small for an instructor to have his hands on? No way.

[malaise]

30. That eight year old boy was with his father

His father is to blame.

That is all.

[gollygee]

31. I think there are a number of people to blame

His father is one. But also the people who set up the activities at the gun fair, who presumably would know quite a bit about guns, but who didn't think to keep little kids from that activity.

[plaintiff]

35. Little kids are not only allowed but encouraged by their parents to drive

off-road "four wheelers" (and/or go-carts, snowmobiles, etc.) There are occasional serious or fatal accidents resulting from those activities. Is it your position that someone in 'authority' be given the power to override parental rights to suit your personal notion of what adolescents should be permitted to do?

[gollygee]

36. 8-year-olds are not adolescents

Kids get hurt, and that's just part of being a kid. But handing an 8-year-old an uzi? Whoever handed that child that gun had responsibility over that gun.

[plaintiff]

39. You are parsing words (nitpicking) but I never said it was a good idea.

You ignored the thrust of my comment. The "whoever" was ultimately his parent whether or not he actually "handed it" over to him.
Either he was present and approved and was thus negligent or he wasn't there and was thus negligent. It's not rocket science.

[gollygee]

40. He is also negligent.

[Richard Steele]

32. Sorry, I meant to respond 24 hours ago but got distracted by the ghost of Billbuckhead.

I'm from a family that landed on this continent
over 100 years before the American Revolution;
a family that has always owned firearms. LOTS of firearms.

I have personally owned over 300 firearms in my lifetime.
That number was achieved between the ages of 21 and 25; if
firearms had continued to be my hobby, I would have easily
surpassed FOUR THOUSAND by now, and be closing as fast upon
5 thousand guns as I am upon 16,400 days.

I come from folks that learn to shoot long before they learn to drive;
from folks that have owned & operated every "assault weapon"
that was ever considered "modern", from flintlock single-shot rifles
on up.

I have a 12year-old niece up in Polecat Hollowc who enjoys popping
pumpkins at long ranges with an FN/FAL that's almost as tall as she is,
and as I'm posting this I'm sitting about 10 feet away from 5 different
rifles that were the best "assault weapons" of their day.

And on behalf of 350 years worth of hard-talkin, gun-toting, straight-shooting
(daughters and) sons of bitches (and bastards) named "Steele", I can
safely speak for 300 years of us when I say that it would take a
real MORAN to hand a weapon like a "Micro-Uzi" to an 8-year-old.