How many non African Americans have been inside a Black Church?

[HamdenRice]

The reason I'm asking is that in light of the controversy over Prop 8, I've been reading on these boards a certain amount of "description" of what is believed to go on in Black Churches. One concern I have is that most non African Americans who have not actually been to a Black Church or listened to the theology of the mainstream African American denominations are likely to get their impression of the theology of the Black Church and the extent of its social conservatism from African American televangelists, like Creflo Dollar, Frederick K.C. Price and T.D. Jakes.

The problem with getting your understanding from what you might see in passing on the tv is that because these guys are on tv, they have to ask for money, and because they have to ask for money, they are overwhelmingly part of the so called "prosperity doctrine" theological movement -- a politically conservative, fundamentalist, and financial pie in the sky theology that mainstream Protestants tend to see as not just heretical but bizarre.

Or perhaps some are assuming that because the African American churches are evangelical and charismatic, they must also be fundamentalist, and inferring the theology of the Black Church from the theology of the fundamentalist denominations of the larger Christian community.

I'm personally not religious, but I did grow up in the mainstream Black Baptist Church, and what I'm hearing described on these boards bears little resemblance to the mainstream denominations -- African Methodist Episcopals, Pentacostals, Baptists (very different from Southern Baptist) and Methodists.

So this is not intended to be flame bait, but I'm trying to understand where people get their information from.

[Occam Bandage]

1. Yes, but only twice.

It seemed pretty normal to me. Nothing of any interest to report, really.

[wryter2000]

2. Does a wedding count?

I've never been to a regular service, but I attended a wedding in an AA church.

[HamdenRice]

4. No, because I'm trying to learn about exposure to theology

In fact, the poll probably won't elicit the answer because I suppose it takes more prolonged exposure than one service. Weddings in general are not very theological.

Not to hide the ball, so to speak, my impression is that more African American pastors at least in the northeast are like Rev. Wright or Cornell West than like T.D. Jakes or Creflo Dollar.

Ever since Martin Luther King, some variant of "liberation theology" has been dominant, so I'm puzzled by all the very assured descriptions of the Black Church as being conservative and fundamentalist.

[wryter2000]

9. I see your point

FWIW, I'm not willing to make any conclusions based on snippets of a couple of services someone put on the teevee. I imagine if I sat in Rev. Wright's church I'd nod in agreement, even to his "God damn America" statement. I think I understand where he's coming from even if I haven't experienced being AA myself.

My impression is that services are much more animated than in my church when I was a kid, which is a good thing. As Bishop Spong of the Episcopal Church says, "if the Jews are God's chosen people, Episcopalians are God's frozen people."

[IndianaJones]

3. what is your theory on the source of the overwhelming hatred? nt.

[HamdenRice]

5. Could you be more precise?

whose hatred of whom?

[IndianaJones]

7. African American attitudes on this issue match up almost exactly with white fundamentalists.

if the reason is not similarity in religion, what is it?

[HamdenRice]

10. Your assumptions are wrong. Check out the best post so far on this--->

DUer NJPuggle nailed the complexities in this post:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=221&topic_id=87931&mesg_id=87965

The point is, that there is a huge amount of misinformed stereotyping going on. I say this as an African American male who grew up in the Baptist Church and who always had black gays and lesbians in my life, in my extended family and in my childhood church.

[IndianaJones]

12. my assumptions are based on exit polls from Tuesday and other polls taken of African Americans...

they always show huge numbers agreeing on homosexuality as unacceptable or immoral.

[HamdenRice]

23. You're extrapolating

What several of us have tried to point out is that there may be many complex reasons a higher than expected percentage of African Americans supported Prop 8.

What we have no evidence of, as yet, is that it was because of the churches. At this point, you are just assuming and projecting this without evidence. We don't yet know what voters were thinking, nor do we know the correlation between church attendance and supporting Prop 8. To say it was based on religious hatred is that this point just making stuff up that you hope to be true.

[IndianaJones]

25. I think you are hoping it is not true, that religion is not the basis for this insidious hatred. nt.

[HamdenRice]

26. Evidence?

In your own post upthread, you asked what else could it be if not religion.

It seems to me you've prevented no evidence whatsoever. I have no idea what the cause was because I don't live in California, but I'm not going to just make stuff up and pretend it's an established fact.

[IndianaJones]

27. read this page of the poll:

http://www.scetv.org/television/productions/the_big_picture/winthrop_etv_polls/poll2/survey2page9.html

then read this one:

http://www.scetv.org/television/productions/the_big_picture/winthrop_etv_polls/poll2/survey2page7.html



then continue to make excuses for religious bigotry and homophobia.

[HamdenRice]

28. huh? What's that got to do with the price of beans in Mexico?

It's a Sept 2007 poll that shows that respondents are religious. What's that got to do with the issue at hand, which is, what were the motivations of Democratic voters who supported Prop 8.

[IndianaJones]

30. I'll say one thing...at least I can face the fact the homophobic, bigoted members of my race...

voted for prop 8 largely because of religious belief and tradition.

[HamdenRice]

33. Basically you're saying you want to continue losing on this issue

Because the only way to win is by coalition. The only way to win by coalition is to figure out exactly why so many Democrats, African Americans and Latinos voted yes. I see no evidence it was entirely based on religion. I would like to know why so that they can be reasoned out of their position.

You on the other hand simply want to condemn their religion -- without even having evidence that religion was the motivating factor. Or even if it was, how to convince their pastors to come over to the side of the many African American pastors who have embraced equal marital rights.

Which is to say, you want to destroy whatever is left of the coalition by projecting as much bigotry back, as you think was projected toward gays and lesbians.

Which is to say, you want to lose by a greater margin.

Why do you hate gays and lesbians so much and why do you want to ensure they never get equal marriage rights?

[IndianaJones]

35. so you see no evidence that people that find the bible to be the unerring word of god...

may have voted against what they see as sinful behavior?

our own President-elect opposes gay marriage on religious grounds. what more evidence do you need? Jesus?

[HamdenRice]

36. Dupe delete nt

[HamdenRice]

38. Your premise is wrong again. I see I'm discussing this with someone who knows

very little about religion or churches or theology. "People that find the bible to be the unerring word of god" are a particular subset of Christians called "fundamentalists."

Most mainstream African American churches simply are not fundamentalist. Martin Luther King himself, who is now the central theological lodestar of the Black Church, was not a fundamentalist. He did not believe that "the bible to be the unerring word of god" and said so many times.

The mainstream Black Church generally leans toward liberation theology, which focuses on the New Testament, and the themes of social justice in the gospels. Many explicitly claim that the Old Testament, in which the sexual mores against homosexuality are found, are not still theologically relevant.

If you want to get theologically detailed about it, the sexual laws of the Old Testament are part of the "covenant" between God and the Jewish people. According to the theology taught in most Black Churches, Jesus is the "new covenant" with all people that replaced the covenant between God and the Jews.

For example, that's why Christians, including African American Christians, can eat pork and shellfish. According to modern theology, the sexual rules in Leviticus, just like the dietary rules, are officially irrelevant.

Martin Luther King went even further questioning the literal truth of the New Testament, and did not even believe in the bodily resurrection of Jesus:

http://www.stanford.edu/group/King/additional_resources/articles/gospel.htm

"King admitted that he "joined the church not out of any dynamic conviction, but out of a childhood desire to keep up with my sister." In the same sketch, he wrote that, although he accepted the teachings of his Sunday school teachers until he was about twelve,

'this uncritical attitude could not last long, for it was contrary to the very nature of my being. I had always been the questioning and precocious type. At the age of 13 I shocked my Sunday School class by denying the bodily resurrection of Jesus. From the age of thirteen on doubts began to spring forth unrelentingly.'

King's recognition that he did not share some of' the religious convictions of other family members might have been emotionally devastating, but his inalienable sense of belonging to the church led him toward reconciliation rather than continued rebellion. Although his convictions removed him from the kind of fundamentalist faith that placed great importance on emotionalism and a conversion experience, he never considered abandoning his inherited faith."

<end quote>

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/c/a/2007/01/15/MNGHJNIR631.DTL

Writings show King as liberal Christian, rejecting literalism

Many of the Rev. Martin Luther King Jr.'s most formative writings and sermons -- some dating to when King was a precocious 19-year-old seminary student in 1948 -- languished for decades in a battered cardboard box.

...

The texts are triggering a discussion about how much King's rejection of a literal reading of the Bible shaped his social activism.

King was not a conformist Christian. He not only eschewed literalism, he was a strident critic of how the Christian church perpetuated injustices such as slavery and segregation.

<end quote>

That's the way Christianity is taught in many theology departments that train Black ministers. If you can understand that, if you keep assuming "facts" that are wrong, you will not understand what happened in California. But as I said it seems you hate gays and lesbians and want to ensure equal marriage never is achieved on the basis of a coalition with liberal Christians, including liberal African Americans.

[Leopolds Ghost]

41. What about people who support DLC economic conservatism and police state practices?

You know, like most secular white yuppies you and I both know. "Security Moms." "DLC Dads" who believe green energy is more important than social justice and want to make sure there aren't too many "inner city kids" in their local school.

[IndianaJones]

42. your President? nt.

[Leopolds Ghost]

44. I leave that up to him.

There are certainly black people who are deeply, deeply conservative on economic, not just social issues. The black-flight crowd who attend all those suburban megachurches. It is a Southern thing, not a religious thing, really. Obama will be more of a hero to that segment of the black community if he is right of Reagan, because they will finally have a home politically. Reagan's chief sin was the degree to which his whole administration was predicated on demonization of inner-city blacks.

[yardwork]

17. That post reflects one anonymous person's opinion.

I could also offer the opinions of several black gay people I know who will tell you that their churches were absolutely not welcoming to the idea of being gay. In fact, I know several closeted black gay people who are closeted for this reason alone. They don't want to be ostracized from their community.

[bluedawg12]

18. Reconcilliation is important but not without understanding

if you are saying there is no homophobia in the US black church, then, I have to disagree based on what I have read in published studies as opposed to one persons (well intentioned) opinion that it's not true.

[curse of greyface]

6. When you have dated a black woman with kids your going to go to church.

I don't remember it being anti-anything. I found most of the sermons life affirming and filled with hope.

[mrcheerful]

14. It depends on where your at in the country as I have heard plenty of anti gay sermons at a few afro

american church all over my state. But then that could have been because the woman I was dating was an active bi sexual who happened to be the daughter of a preacher. They kept using the bible and prayers to "fix" their daughter.

[curse of greyface]

31. Well she was fairly liberal (as you can imagine dating me)

So I assume the church wasn't the fundamentalist black Churches others have experienced.

[SweetieD]

20. Sorry that is the silliest thing I have heard in my life.

I know lots of black women with kids who don't go to church.

[curse of greyface]

29. Well my experience was that she did. wasn't trying to universalize.

A lot of mothers, single and otherwise, take the kids to church. Hardly a silly idea.

[HamdenRice]

24. Thanks for that! nt

[curse of greyface]

32. Your welcome. I doubt all black churches are the same anymore than all white churches. nt

[bluedawg12]

8. I also don't get my opinions from TV evangalists of any color

that's why I went and looked up an article about the black church and posted it, written by experts, many of them AA like Dyson and Cornell West.

It's here on DU, the article is from a professional peer reviewed journal.

I have heard everyne's opinion for two days now, but little research, little light being shed.

So, how about the article I posted? Care to discuss that over there?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x4403469

[HamdenRice]

19. I read it and the linked article when you posted it

It may be in a peer reviewed article, but that doesn't mean it's correct. It's basically a cultural criticism piece, and little more than opinion.

I think parts of it are right, parts of it are ludicrous.

I should mention that I was a student of Cornell West, and respect him greatly, and he is cited in the article, but did not write it.

The basic point of the article is that homophobia in the African American community comes from the church and hypermasculinity of the kind demonstrated by "gangstas".

The problem with that argument is that gangsters don't go to church. Moreover, church membership tends to make African American men adopt a completely different "male identity" that is consistent with middle class and working class Christianity -- the responsible husband and father type.

The analysis of the church's theology makes little sense to me, because he is arguing that Black Churches are scriptural fundamentalists. That assertion is controversial to say the least. Cornell West writes and speaks of an evolving prophetic tradition -- ie he contradicts the description of the Black Church as scripturally fundamentalist. Even Martin Luther King was not a scriptural literalist.

The passage that summarized Cornell West I think is closest to the mark -- namely that the Black Church is largely silent on sexuality of all kinds. I remember the first time going to a Catholic mass and I was flabbergasted by the emphasis on sexual behavior in the homily -- something that would only be discussed in the most indirect way in a mainstream Black Church.

In general, I thought the article verged on the incoherent.

[mrcheerful]

11. Not only was I in a black church I also dated the

bi-sexual daughter of the traveling preacher for 7 years. There was very little difference between the black church and the white except for one thing, they talked about social ills being the fault of republicon law's that kept the afro american community down. It was weird hearing them pray for democratic leadership except for Kerry because they didn't like his pro gay marriage talk. The girl I was dating used to complain that her family accepted me, a non afro american, more then they did her afro american girl friend before I came along.

[TexasObserver]

13. I've been to black churches over 100 times, and I'm white.

Understanding the general attitudes of black church goers toward homosexuality requires understanding both the anti gay themes in such churches, as well as the anti gay themes in the rearing of children in the black community. It's a complicated situation, and attacking blacks as a group because a disproportionate number oppose gay measures is not helpful. The root cause is religion, and the doctrines taught in white and black churches alike regarding homosexuality.

I think religions are generally bizarre and idiotic, and blame them for doing far more harm than good. And it doesn't matter whether the adherents are black, Asian, white, Hispanic, or something else.

[lukasahero]

15. I was the music minister at an AME Zion church

when I was in high school/college. My church supported this church in getting it back on its feet (they hadn't been able to "afford" a minister for several years) and I was a cheap (very cheap) music minister. It was one of the best experiences I've ever had in a church.

I'm not sure what specifically prompted this post but my experience was that members were extremely inviting and welcoming of all who wanted to participate. The sermons and services celebrated God and often centered on how to reach out to assist the community beyond the church walls. I haven't been involved in the threads you reference, but I would not classify, from my experience, African American churches as particularly conservative.

[HamdenRice]

21. Thanks. That's my take as well. nt

[yardwork]

16. I've been to African American weddings in black churches, but no regular services.

I don't go to church very often at all unless it is a wedding or a funeral. Maybe twice in the past 25 years. Or even less. So no, I haven't been to any regular black services, just weddings in black churches.

I know that there are a lot of fire-and-brimstone anti-gay preachers in black churches here in the south, but there are also some gay-affirming black churches and I'm sure that there are lots of churches in the middle on the issue. Probably very similar to the demographics among white churches but maybe not. As I say, I'm no expert on churches.

I'm a little flabbergasted by the many posts telling us that it's racist to discuss the exit poll results in California but somehow perfectly ok to make broad generalizations based on people's supposed religious beliefs.

Maybe we should stick with the exit polls, the voting results, and other surveys.

[Greyhound]

22. While I'm not a believer of any sort, I lived in Atlanta and it's almost impossible

to move there and not end up going to somebody's church. Since most of my friends there are black, that's where I went. Seemed just as silly as the other services I've been brought to over the years.

I'm with George Carlin on this one, religion is the greatest con game in history and the fact that so many buy it is kind of scary.

[Lilith Velkor]

34. I've been to a majority-black UU church, but I'm sure that doesn't count.

:shrug:

[curse of greyface]

37. It does. that what I was saying above. They are no more uniform than white churches. NT

[noel711]

39. Many times... worked as student pastor in an african american church in Philly...

Fabulous experience.

Worshiping and fellowshipping in an African American church
is a delight. It is inspiring, powerful, elevating and incredible.
If you haven't felt 'the spirit' in your previous faith experience,
you may be knocked over by the warmth and acceptance.
Because, in my experience, many African American church know
how to worship, and how to welcome others.

Problem is... too many folks makes judgments based on their
perception and not experience. SAdly, that is the state
of our nation as we embark on a journey of faith.. which is
what happened Tuesday night. The election made a statement of
faith.. faith in a new direction, faith in a new leader,
faith in the community that supported the candidacy of Obama.

Getting him elected is just the beginning; hopefully, many will
take it as a mandate to move ahead into the future of communities,
and reach out. Reach out to others, reach out to those who differ
from us, reach out, in faith, to those on the other side of the
political divide. I have seen incredible changes in people
since this campaign.

Worshiping together is one such future.

[Leopolds Ghost]

40. When I was little

My mother was a choir organist at a Missouri Synod black church. They were old school. We were the only white people, I think. "Our" liberal Evangelical Lutheran church was across the street.

[SoCalDem]

43. Religion (organized religion) is segregationist in nature

whether by color or belief, it just iS.. That's why it's so dangerous..

Don't get me wrong... there is nothing particularly bad about people who have an affinity for each other, getting together regularly to share their sorrows, or to rejoice in their happy occurrences, BUT sooner or later, MOST religions get around to that "icky part".... the part where they are told to/made to believe that ONLY THEY have the "one true way"...and how EVERYONE ELSE, who does NOT believe like THEY do, are somehow evil or demonic or worthy of scorn, derision, and even death..

The fact that most religion relies on texts that have been translated over and over, from and into many different languages, and that it was supposedly written waaaaaaay after the deaths of the people mentioned, makes the whole idea quite suspect ..

Until quite recently (in evolutionary terms) MOST people on earth weren't even literate, and relied on oral histories. Anyone who has ever played "telephone", knows how information gets tweaked...and add to that the fact that most religious tracts were copied faithfully by monks..(before the printing press)..and water was not all that safe in those days, so I'm guessing that "vast quantities of wine" were consumed while those monks labored into the wee hours by candlelight.:evilgrin:

Religion was a clever way to "explain" natural disasters, and to keep the unwashed masses "in line".. If the "smartest" man in the community (the only one who was literate) told people something, they tended to believe him.

It was ALWAYS to his advantage to keep a tightly knit group of believers, and by controlling their ideas and education, whatever religion he espoused, could then RULE actual places and collect wealth...and there was always a ready group to settle any "disputes"...for God..

[Ilsa]

45. Me. I also attended a fundraiser-dinner for the youth complex. And

when a wonderful AME choir came to our big white church in Dallas, I was one of a few people out of several hundred who understood that it was okay to sway and clap with the choir and music. White people can be so stiff at church sometimes. They had no joy.

[Midlodemocrat]

46. I have. A Catholic one downtown.

I went mostly for the music because the choir is amazing.

I still go once in a while if I have some extra time in the mornings on Sunday because it's about 1/2 hour away.

[KamaAina]

47. It was a black Catholic church in New Orleans

I took Mom over there once when she was in town, so we could hear a gospel Mass.

So it wouldn't be quite the same thing as "the black church" that you (and seemingly everyone) are talking about.

Postscript: After the Federal Flood, the Archdiocese of N.O. put the church, Blessed Sacrament on Constance St. uptown, on its closure "hit list". :(

[XemaSab]

48. Grew up in Oakland

Never been. :shrug: