Just let them die.

[SmileyRose]

I never in a million years would believe people calling themselves Democrats would advocate for 100's of 1000's of union families to end up destitute and other 100's of 1000's of union retirees, many of whom are too physically disabled by the work they did for 30-40 years to earn a living anymore, to be thrown under the bus as undeserving wretches sucking the life out of America.

I expect that from Republicans who value profits over people. I'm shocked and saddened to see it on the Democratic Underground.

The people who own the vast majority of stocks in these companies spent decades walking away with billions upon billions. They told the union they would pay workers less now and put money aside for retirement income and medical care. Deferred pay. Current union retirees are being paid now from yesterday's profits. Clearly, the people who own the vast majority of stocks in these companies have run it into the ground. I keep reading on DU that it's the workers fault, that old used up disabled men and their wives should be told to do without for what little time they have left on this planet. I am not reading on DU about the blood sucking mismanagement at the top who were responsible.

Do any of you running your mouths about greedy union workers really think that Ford or GM or all the other supporting union shops that will collapse will survive if all their union retirees would croak tomorrow?

I don't know who you people are. I don't know what your lives are like. But if you are really the new face of the Democratic party, gawd help us all.

[20score]

1. K&R.

[SharonAnn]

124. Absolutely right! What happened to all the money that was "set aside"?

Could it be that somebody took it for themselves?

Could it be that every time there was an opportunity for management to line its pockets at the expense of workers, they did so? Hmmmm? Hmmmm?

Great posting, OP.

[BonnieJW]

137. Thanks for this post.

After 35 years with GM, my husband was forced to retire. It was not in our plans since this was the time we were going to "save like crazy" to make up for all the money that went to raise and educate three kids. Now at the age of 61, my husband has to look for another job. He's "too young" for SS and pension and has to find something else. There are hardworking people behind the words "auto industry," and I know none of you mean us harm. It hurts to read some of the posts at DU.

[rucky]

2. a small minority here

thankfully

[Tigress DEM]

64. A small minority with big sqwak boxes. We DEMS loves us some Unions!

I DO think the idea of the OIL companies bailing them out is a good idea.

AND I am mad at TOP management that made the decision to go go go with the guzzlers instead of increasing CAFE standards since the 70's when we had our FIRST hint that this oil thing could blow up on us.

People getting the job done? In my prayers, not on my hit list.

[MJJP21]

92. UAW

The UAW really needs to come out ASAP and start offering concessions immediately. This is a game of who blinks first. Once the car companies file bankruptcy it's over. In fact it may be over as we speak as I can't imagine anyone who is contemplating buying an american car would do so staring at the possibility that any warranty and future repairs, parts etc will be either null and void or hard to get. If I am correct the next stats on sales will be so dismal as to force the hand of those in power one way or the other.Lets not forget a bankruptcy on one or more car companies is also going to affect all the owners of GM Ford and Chrysler products that are under warranty need parts etc. This is huge and far more serious than those people who are saying so what let them fail. I will bet half the cars on the road are still US made, many still under warranty and that is a lot of cars.
What is very disappointing is that what I am hearing from the UAW is a hardline stance. Unless he knows something that most of us do not this is not the way to go. Once they lose these jobs the UAW will be extinct and he has to know that.

[Bluenorthwest]

100. Telll your Daddy

that the upper management and executive sections of the big three need to go to jail for fraud. That is the concession that needs to be made. Those executives desroyed the companies with bad product, a desire to push SUV trucks instead of cars, and an utter disregard for the realities of our oil supply.
What is very disappointing is that what I am hearing is that these bastards do no intend to take accountability for their mistakes.

[droidamus2]

129. My only questions

My only questions as far as the unions giving concessions is how much have the already conceded in the last few years? Have they been doing their part and management is just screwing away whatever savings they made (or putting it in their pockets)? I agree that if the auto industry is going to get a bailout there are going to have to be concessions all the way around from unions and management especially the obviously overpaid upper management (overpaid because they have obviously done piss poor at their jobs). There are also going to have to be concessions to the American taxpayers in the form of government oversight and requirements that the companies move to a stance that looks forward to the era of hybrid/electric/hydrogen cars and not back nostalgically to the era of the 'muscle' and 'big luxury' cars. I would have no problem with a requirement that the CEO's either step down or take drastic cuts in pay until they show that they understand what they have done wrong and are taking the necessary steps to fix the problems they have caused.

[SemperEadem]

156. the UAW does not decide the course of action which the automakers take

the management of the 3 automakers decide what will be designed to be built, not the unions.

The managment decided that building bigger trucks for smaller dicks was the route to take because no one is going to tell a 'murkin to conserve gasoline--that stuff is ours by birthright, so they had no interest in designing vehicles which were competitively fuel efficient like European cars.

It is no secret that the automakers had their lobbyists greasing the oil company pols in Washington against forcing the automakers into adopting better fuel standards for their vehicles. They had their lawyers ready to go to court and fight against being forced to design and build fuel efficient cars. They got exactly what they wanted--they wanted to run their companies right into the ground by building increasing less competitive vehicles.

Now, they don't have money. Now they want a bail out without any repercussions. And you are naive enough to believe that this position the automakers are in is because of the UAW not making enough concessions to the boards of these companies.

Congress should not give the automakers a dime without forcing them to build fuel efficient cars which can compete with what has been built and are being built in Europe. If they can't/won't, then they should not receive a freakin' dime. It's a shame that they have to be forced to manage their companies responsibly, but if this is the only way to get through to them, then this is the way to get through to them.

It's all their fault for the direction in which they chose to take their companies--the UAW builds what they decide. Know the difference and quit being naive.

[BonnieJW]

157. They are.

Ten of the new models are fuel efficient. The Volt is due to come out the end of 2009 which will be battery powered. It won't if GM is allowed to die. Healthcare costs for union employees will be shifted to the unions by 2010 at which time the cost of an American car will be equal to Japanese cars. These are facts that are not being discussed.

[SemperEadem]

160. I get what you're saying

but one model not to be released for another 12 months when the Europeans and Asians have been building on this technology for years now isn't enough for the automakers to get a total bail out pass. There needs to be a concrete declaration of intention on what they plan to design and build on their part with regards to receiving this money--and so far, nothing like that has been forthcoming from them. They're whining for the money and not saying how they will change the way they do business.

They want to "AIG" this money--keep doing what they've been doing on the taxpayer's dime. If that is the road they want to take, then I can't say "ok fine because we can't let you die". It'd be better to use that money to set up a fund for those directly displaced/impacted by the automakers going out of business--like uaw pensioners and the health funds of those workers.

The big 3 are going to have to sacrifice big time and not at the expense of the unions--the unions did not lead the industry into this ditch--company managment did that.

[DainBramaged]

163. Excuse me

they are, and the focus has changed, and the Volt WILL see the light of day in 2010, and most of the fleet is being revised for greatly improved millage. Hydrogen cars are being TESTED as we speak.

Thank you for participating.

[SemperEadem]

200. you're excused-- get your mommy to write a note to get back in.

we all can be snarky if you want to play it like that.

[nankerphelge]

182. Amen...

giving money to the auto companies in the vain hope that it will reach the workers is trickle down economics. Give the money to workers for retraining, pension shortfalls, etc.

[Edweird]

3. There are some very elitist 'I got mine' anti-labor assholes here, for sure.

K&R.

[NNN0LHI]

6. Corporations have plenty of money to hire flunkys to spam our board

Thats what is going on.

Don

[Telly Savalas]

42. Which corporations are paying people to argue against shoveling

billions to other corporations? If DU actually had some influence over public policy (which is a giganto leap of an "if"), then wouldn't it make sense for the CEO's asking for these bailouts to pay for people to defend the bailout? Doesn't it cut both ways?

We need some sort of a plan to make sure that workers in the auto industry have good jobs. I'm not sure what the best answer is, but throwing cash at the current Big 3 management with no strings attached doesn't seem like it's going to get it done. Letting the Big 3 crash and burn would fuck up a lot of people's lives and would have a pretty sizable domino effect throughout our economy, so it's something we shouldn't let happen. But any government assistance must be accompanied by oversight, controls, the establishment of a detailed business plan which maps the return to profitability, and the likely replacement of current management. In the absence of these things, we have absolutely no reason to believe that management won't just burn through the cash and come back begging for more in 6-12 months.

[ColonelTom]

55. Agreed. No bailouts for anyone without significant oversight. nt

[Romulox]

145. You must have been in a coma during the "THANK GAWD IT PASSED" debacle. nt

[Telly Savalas]

194. Whatever.

As with the automakers, the government needs to be intervening and providing assistance in the financial sector. But just like in the auto industry, strings need to be attached to this help and guarantees need to be made that the help is a piece of a larger plan to provide a sustainable solution to the problems.

In the case of the financial sector we can see what a fucking trainwreck bailouts are without transparency, proper oversight, and a comprehensive mid-to-long-term policy. Why would we want to replicate this disaster in the auto industry?

"We need to hand billions of taxpayer's dollars to CEOs and let them do whatever the fuck they want" is not a pro-labor position.

[rucognizant]

43. Also, over the past 20 years.........

I have looked into the eyes of some middle aged Boomers whose, sole focus is early retirement, and have seen their non-souls.
They are counting on the stock market for their own personal goals......
They are quasi liberals. ( or should I say, they are liberal "socially", pro integration, choice, even gay marriage, BUT have a dark, selfish, spot when it comes to economics.)
Maine seems to attract them!

[KnaveRupe]

94. Hey! Don't diss the DLC!!! n/t

[yodoobo]

61. lol. No wonder they are going broke

If they are dumb enough to try and buy influence on a political chat board.

[Joe Chi Minh]

125. Got it in one.

[Dr.Phool]

176. One can only hope that they do get theirs.

[AllieB]

4. K&R

It's the face of the DLC, not necessarily the Democratic Party.

[paulk]

27. the DLC is against the bailout of the auto industry?

I thought they were pushing it...

[HillbillyBob]

5. That would not be us that would be rpuke trolls making silly

and asinine statements. I worked as an electrician in so called 'right to work states' ever time unions came up the damned rpuke owners of the companies fired everyone who even mentioned unions. I personally have been fired 10 times for it, and about as many when it was found out that i was gay. If we had had union representation this kind of crap would not have happened.

[me b zola]

7. K&R

[stray cat]

8. I know people disagree about bailing out the auto companies

Many companies and people will lose their jobs and that will not be limited to the auto industry. However, I haven't heard anyone blame retirees or the disabled in any company.

[moodforaday]

98. Of course these jobs will be lost

bailout or no bailout. But there's that same huge DU contingent that screamed at everyone who expressed doubts over Paulson's stick-up; that same crowd who again believed that the sky would fall if Bush and his cronies didn't get the 700 billion overnight; that same crowd who again, in spite of everything they had learned, gave in to panic and ran to Bush and banks for salvation.

Barely a month later it's already pretty clear who was right about the bailout, but now there's a new crisis and the only way out is to shovel money at corporations without a precondition.

Those who trust big business so much should have voted Republican.

[Sadie5]

9. Thanks

For agreeing with what I have been trying to get across. I'm tired of the union getting the blame for the mismanagement of Waggoner and his BOD. May he rot in hell.

[TWiley]

10. I dont get it either ... Bail out the White colar repukes ... shaft the blue collar?

What the living fuck is up with that anyway?

$850 BILLION to subsidize republican voters
$0.00 to subsidize Democratic voters?

[hlthe2b]

11. I'm angry at the Big 3, but this is blatantly an attempt to destroy

the unions in this country...Just as the REPUGs saw Katrina's aftermath as the chance to gentrify New Orleans, remove the Democratic voting block and to enable their most racist fantasies, clearly their objective in letting GM and the others fail is to bust the unions.

The Big 3 management have failed all of us, blatantly ignoring the need for peak oil and climate change to change the direction of their R&D. GM blatantly destroyed a promising electric car industry and they all fought California's then leadership in increasing mileage and emissions standards. For this, I'd like to see all in senior management during this time, rot in hell. But, the impact of letting auto production fail, once and for all in this country, reaches far beyond the loss of yet another major city, Detroit. The reverberations will be national and international and it will drive a stake into the heart of an already gasping union movement in this country.

We need to wake up. We need to educate those among us who would be taken in by the superficial messaging from the RW.

[cayanne]

31. It will help destroy Social Security & Medicare

If these millions of workers are unemployed, there will be less people paying into social security and medicare for those already receiving these benefits.

[October]

47. Agreed. They always hurt the union workers most /nt

[sarcasmo]

206. Bingo that is exactly what is, a destroy the unions push and I can't believe this board how

no one can see what is going down.

[liberalmuse]

12. Luckily, I've only seen a couple such posts here.

The auto industry cannot be allowed to fail, period. Granted, new environmental standards should be pushed for, and this is what Obama intends, but for the time being, we need to ensure these companies do not fail.

[MadHound]

13. Did all those bankruptcies in the airline industry destroy it?

No, those bankruptcies didn't, they restructured those corporations, got rid of some dead wood, didn't destroy the unions, didn't throw millions of people out of work. Oh, and we didn't throw billions of dollars at the industry to achieve this.

Continuing to prop up the auto industry with bailout after bailout will simply drag us, our government and our economy into a deep, deep hole that we might not get out of.

[SmileyRose]

17. the county where I live has never recovered from the loss of Eastern

Oh sure, the Atlanta airport is once again thriving thanks to a $gazillion expansion project to keep dollars inside the airport. But local mom and pops etc that went out of business never came back. The area surrounding the airport died. the abandoned houses were taken over by investors renting to section 8. the school system fought like hell but with the loss of so many middle class students and gain section 8 and lower income single parent students instead, the drain on resources for school lunches, breakfasts, tutors, mentors, pre and post school support, etc has sucked the life out of the school system, housing deflated more, more investors - land development for college jobs flocked to other areas of Atlanta.

I guess my part of the world is just "dead wood".

Meh.

[October]

52. Madhound doesn't know what he/she is talking about

Dead wood? Nice, huh? What an ignorant remark.

Excuse my French, but he doesn't know what the fuck he's talking about.

Lay-offs, 30% pay cuts, pensions stolen...lives ruined -- then the subsequent mergers which further ruined families. Dead wood? That's rich. He has no idea how airline employees have suffered for decades. And how the media and corporate America has had a stage on which to blame them for their failed management.

There's a book, Flying the Line, which details the history of ALPA. Not much has changed since those early days in the 1930s -- except now the guy who cuts the dead wood (?) gets hundreds of millions for it.

[Dystopian]

58. On the flip side....At least some good came of it....

Families with limited incomes could live in Section 8 housing, and children are being fed. I'm sorry that your part of the world has too many lower income single parents....All areas are suffering, so at our school we make the best of what we have with the drain on feeding the children, lunch/breakfast, SPED services, etc. I'm thankful that when children come into my classroom that they can eat, and we give them our best...
All the school systems in surrounding towns are having problems...

No dead wood here...smiling little faces and hugs.

peace~

[unapatriciated]

91. ask a Delta pilot about his retirement package...

you will get a very different picture.

[Bluenorthwest]

106. Let's look at the facts you have so wrong

You claim 'we didn't throw billions of dollars to the industry' but that is false. In just the post 9-11 bailout the airlines got $15 billion tax payer dollars to 'save the airlines'. So you are flat out wrong about that, as well as everything else of course. When I say you are wrong, I assume it was intentional by the way. $15 Billion. Next.

[northernlights]

133. airline versus auto industry bailouts

Allowing the airline industry to fix itself way back when is apples and oranges.

As Paul Krugman explained to George Will yesterday on This Week, if this were 1999, with a budget surplus, no war, very high employment levels, etc. he would be in favor of letting the auto industry go bankrupt.

But this is not 1999. The economy is in a serious downward spiral and to allow the auto industry to go chapter 11 will put us all into freefall. Nobody will buy the cars of a company in bankruptcy, for fear of no service or parts in the future.

The auto industry employs far more people than the airline industry. This impacts not only the people who manufacture cars, but thousands of dealerships around the country. It would increase unemployment by an additional million+, which would mean that many more people not paying income taxes and that many people collecting unemployment.

Not to mention how this would add to the foreclosures and homeless.

[Romulox]

143. Fact check: the airlines got BILLIONS in government handouts after 9/11. nt

[sarcasmo]

207. It crushed the Union which is what Ronnie Raygun wanted and achieved.

[Daemonaquila]

102. You've got it backward.

What will happen if the auto makers are bailed out?

The first thing they will do (as the airlines did) is plead that their pension obligations should be cancelled because they're too large a burden - and the government will let them off the hook. The only reason they aren't squealing about this now is that they know that if they do, it will destroy their "poor us" story, and damage their chances at a bailout.

The second thing they will do is whine "Our workers must be competitive!" Then watch many of those jobs go straight overseas, and workers get forced into accepting pay cuts.

The third thing they will scream is "Our costs are too high!" The U.S. parts manufacturers will find themselves dumped and without customers in favor of overseas manufacturers, and those jobs will be lost as sure as if the industry went belly up.

The only reason that the government is even thinking about bailing out the auto industry is that the auto industry is the last major, heavily ailing, manufacturing industry in the country. This story has been repeated over and over as our manufacturing has left for China, Mexico, and other cheap foreign locales. It will cost much, much less to bail out the workers through taking over their pensions, insurance, extended unemployment, retraining, etc., - and starting an aggressive program to rebuild manufacturing in America. We have to create real manufacturing jobs and a healthy manufacturing economy. Bailing out Detroit will not solve any of these problems, just result in the "death of a thousand cuts" for auto industry workers while the industry fails anyway because the execs will not make the changes that will benefit American jobs and build the kind of cars that America needs and wants. It's much cheaper to milk the current lines while shipping jobs overseas... and in a few years ask for more tax credits, free cash, etc. while workers suffer.

[Romulox]

144. All of the nefarious plots you attribute to the Big 3 (reject executory contracts,

reject pension benfit obligations, restructure labor contracts, etc. etc.) are all available in Chapter 11 bankruptcy.

In short, your conspiracy theory makes no sense.

[Daemonaquila]

165. No, you just made my point for me.

The ONLY reason that they aren't already going for all these measures that will bone the workers is that they want the pretty money before they announce and the rotten tomatoes start flying. Either way, the workers will be boned. It therefore makes more sense to put the bailout directly into helping the workers rather than spending it on the company that will put it to ill-use, and then either have to spend it on the workers also in the aftermath, or have the government say, "Sorry you're boned, workers - but now that we spent all that money on the corporate bailout we don't have anything for you."

[Warpy]

14. I think what they really want to die are the suits in upper management

who caused all the trouble, the boards of directors who let them screw up the companies in the hope that reorganization would get them out from under their pension obligations, and the gaggle of admen who pushed gas guzzlers when the writing was on the wall because the profit margin was higher than on cars that wouldn't be putting most people into the poorhouse.

I don't think they want any of the working stiffs on the line to lose jobs. I don't think they want this country to lose its only non defense related heavy industry. I just don't think they've thought it through.

[YOY]

15. I say let them die: and start new companies. Same workers new leadership and vision.

Is it written some goddamn place that the AUW has to only work for these companies run by stupid old white men with good old boy connections?

How the fuck is that anti-union?

[1gobluedem]

117. Your argument might have more weight

If you actually knew that the union is the UAW not the AUW.

[YOY]

164. Awwww...are we feeling snarky for typos?

Yes that was a typo.

Of course I know it's the UAW.

Of course, making that typo error constitues lack of knowledge...but hey: keep up the snark! :sarcasm:

[PugNot]

185. I agree, let 'em die

The Unions only got what the management agreed to give them..So management is to blame, not the workers. The Big Three can die, but there will be others making the cars, mostly in the US; (Almost all Japanese makes are made here). I see no point in throwing good taxpayer money down a rat hole.

[glowing]

The whole entire system is fucked up. I don't wish any one any ill..

but if I stand with you, you better stand with everyone else. If we want real reform, real jobs, real effort, there has got to be a real Labor movement... Just protecting one's own ass is non-viable... I know you won't be out picketing for me if I lose my job... AND no one will bail me out.

[SmileyRose]

18. I have already picketed for you more than once.

A goodly portion of the expectations non-union employees have of their employers, a goodly portion of the labor laws, unemployment insurance, workers comp, work safety, public education, social security, medicare, etc etc etc ad nauseum, was brought to America by union workers fighting for their own asses and everyone elses too.

[glowing]

26. Well, I work in one of those "right to work" states. Which means, no, I have a pay check.

That's it.. nothing else.. If anything happens to me, I'm screwed. When people are making $10.00/ hr, how do you think they can afford a nice shiney car? Everyone has got to enjoy the same type of pay, retirement, healthcare, leave, and now that everyone is working, free, safe daycare.

[SmileyRose]

29. I work in a right to work state too.

And I currently make $9.43 an hour. My husband makes a similar wage. If I lose my job I can apply for unemployment, thanks to unions. Where I live, there are viable public schools with continuing education programs was nomimal charge, thanks to unions. If I get hurt on the job, which is unlikely because of enforced safety standards, I can get medical care and income replacement while I recooperate thanks to unions. When I am an old woman too disabled and used up to work, I will have some sort of nominal income and basic medical care thanks to unions. The food standards at local restaurants are within reason to protect my health because of unions. The safety of the car seat I just bought for a neighbor's new baby can be trusted because of unions. The fact there are enough firefighters in my county to come put my house out if it catches fire is because of unions.

If something happens to me and I can't work for awhile we will probably either have to start renting out the spare bedroom, or will have to sell the house if we can and move in with one of my siblings. We already have my husband's disabled uncle living with us in our 900 sq ft 3 bedroom 1 bath home. Luckily, us being in our 50's, the house is now paid for - but insurance and taxes and maintenance isn't free. If I get a bad sickness I'm lucky the unionized workers all over Atlanta fought for Grady hospital. It's not the best place, and it has a lot of financial problems, but I can access some sort of medical care there if I need it.

Me, and my dad, and my dad's dad, and his dad before him picketed and suffered and even sometimes got beat up to protect their own asses and everyone elses. Right now the unions all over America are up in arms pushing for nationwide medical care. Union people are not the enemy. They are not perfect, they have their bad apples sure, but you can thank unions for quite a lot of your quality of life.

[shireen]

72. wish i could rec your post.

very eloquent. thank you.

[DemReadingDU]

101. spouse is retired union Ironworker

and so was his dad. We know the value of unions.

People today forget that the benefits they now enjoy were fought for, by unions - 40 hour basic workweek, child labor laws, holidays, vacations, even coffee breaks. I think of the coalminers who fought, and died, for worker rights. With the economy slowing down, I'm thinking in a few years, there will try to be a resurgence in unions, to win back those precious things that are currently dwindling away.

[DemReadingDU]

104. A Day in the Life of Joe Middle-Class

I remember this going around the Internet 4 years ago...

9/1/04 A Day in the Life of Joe Middle-Class Republican by Donna L. Lavins and Sheldon Cotler

Joe gets up at 6:00 AM to prepare his morning coffee. He fills his pot with good, clean drinking water because some liberal fought for minimum water quality standards. He takes his daily medication with his first swallow of coffee. His medications are safe to take because some liberal fought to insure their safety and that they work as advertised.

All but $10.00 of his medications are paid for by his employer's medical plan. Because some liberal union workers fought their employers for paid medical insurance, now Joe gets it too. He prepares his morning breakfast -- bacon and eggs this day. Joe's bacon is safe to eat because some liberal fought for laws to regulate the meat packing industry.

Joe takes his morning shower, reaching for his shampoo. His bottle is properly labeled with every ingredient and the amount that is contains because some liberal fought for his right to know what he was putting on his body and the breakdown of its contents. Joe dresses, walks outside and takes a deep breath. The air he breathes is clean because some tree-hugging liberal fought for laws to stop industries from polluting our air. He walks to the subway station for his government-subsidized ride to work; it saves him considerable money in parking and transportation fees. You see, some liberal fought for affordable public transportation, which gives everyone the opportunity to be a contributor.

Joe begins his work day; he has a good job with excellent pay, medicals benefits, retirement, paid holidays and vacation because some liberal union members fought and died for these working standards. Joe's employer meets these standards because Joe's employer doesn't want his employees to call the union. If Joe is hurt on the job or becomes unemployed he'll get worker's compensation or an unemployment check because some liberal didn't think he should loose his home to temporary misfortune.

It's noon time. Joe needs to make a bank deposit so he can pay some bills. Joe's deposit is federally insured by the FSLIC because some liberal wanted to protect Joe's money from unscrupulous bankers who ruined the banking system before the depression.

Joe has to pay his Fannie Mae underwritten mortgage and his below market federal student loan because some stupid liberal decided that Joe and the government would be better off if he was educated and earned more money over his lifetime.

Joe is home from work. He plans to visit his father this evening at his farm home in the country. He gets in his car for the drive to dads; his car is among the safest in the world because some liberal fought for car safety standards. He arrives at his boyhood home. He was the third generation to live in the house financed by Farmers Home Administration because bankers didn't want to make rural loans. The house didn't have electric until some big government liberal stuck his nose where it didn't belong and demanded rural electrification (those rural Republican's would still be sitting in the dark).

Joe is happy to see his dad, who is now retired. Joe's dad lives on Social Security and his union pension because some liberal made sure he could take care of himself so Joe wouldn't have to. After his visit with dad, Joe gets back in his car for the ride home. He turns on a radio talk show. The host keeps saying that liberals are bad and conservatives are good. He doesn't tell Joe that his beloved Republicans have fought against every protection and benefit Joe enjoys throughout his day. Joe agrees, "We don't need those big government liberals ruining our lives. After all, I'm a self-made man who believes everyone should take care of themselves, just like I have."

In the years to come, Joe's life will change dramatically. The U.S. dollar will be devalued as a result of our huge deficit, our living standards demolished, our standing with the world diminished and our social security gone...all because some conservative republican made sure he could take care of himself and his buddies.
http://linkfilter.net/?s=j;jid=9297

[QueenOfCalifornia]

158. Thanks!

I remember getting that and from a fellow DUer in an email. It is an excellent email that went viral.

best to you,

Giligan

[asteroid2003QQ47]

16. Bail them out but take them, and redistribute the stock.

Bailout cost to average citizens is frequently published so generating that figure with regard to an auto industry bailout should present no problems. Use that figure to distribute the confiscated stock to every adult American.
Then mandate the production of a "peoples car" devoid of planned obsolescence
a la early VW, built to the exact same specs regardless of company.
Change in specs would be dictated solely by major advancement in technology.
The workforce would remain intact and continue to be unionized though the divisive concept of craft unions would be discouraged in favor of one all encompassing Workers of the World Union.

[malaise]

19. Great post

K & R
Workers of the world unite.

[fascisthunter]

20. Corporatists

maybe they too are invested in this so-called "Free-Market"?

It's sad what money reveals about people...

[Kalyke]

21. For some reason, people on this board hate American cars.

Seriously.

I live in a red state and see far more American cars than foreign ones.

I wonder, in much the same inane manner as has been pointed out that Dems like cats, while Republicans like dogs (not entirely true - I'm a liberal with three dogs), if more Dems live back in the 1980s when it comes to American engineering and refuse to see that American cars are less expensive, while still providing the same quality as their foreign counterparts?

[YOY]

22. Bullshit.

Kiss my old Pontiac's bumper.

[Kalyke]

62. Good!

I love old Pontiacs. I'd rather kiss your Pontiac's bumper than own a Toyota any ole day!

:)

[wolfgangmo]

82. I love my little ford focus.

On the other hand of my 2 old pickups, my ford is scrap as of 10 years ago and my toyota, purchased at the same time, has over 500K on it and is still running great.

[ExPatLeftist]

152. Donuts to dollars that Focus was made in Mexico... n/t

[DainBramaged]

35. Toyotahondanissanmazda is god here, woe is me for owning a Domestic

I am at the end of my rope with the hatred for American industry and union workers on DU. It is just horrible. This place has become no better than Freeperville.

Fuck this

[Kalyke]

63. You have my undying sponsorship.

As long as America sells a car, I'll buy it.

If the only car sold by American companies is one - it will be my next. I will not buy a foreign car.

Heck, I go out of my way to buy American as often as possible - even on small shit. Why would I not buy American for a 10 year or better investment.

And, you keep fighting the good fight. My husband is now a believer. He traded his Ford truck in on a Beemer - for a good reason, mind you - we were having a baby and needed a back seat, but he's now rueing that day. His Beemer is crap. His truck never, ever, ever gave him an ounce worth of problems, while the Beemer is in the shop once a month.


Long live Domestic.

BTW, here is my baby:

[Froward69]

107. Just a dumb question...

I bet a bundle that "baby" Mustang wont fit in the back seat of that beemer...:sarcasm: possibly trying to fit it in is why the beemer goes to the shop once a month... :sarcasm:

sorry I could not resist... :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
I buy American as often as I can also...

[Kalyke]

142. Actually, both my children sit in the backseat.

Mustangs aren't coups, you know. They have a backseat and me and the kids fit just fine in it - it's my husband who doesn't like riding in it. The seats are bucket seats and sit very low to the ground. I'm only 5'1" and that's perfect for my tiny frame. But, my husband, who is considerably larger than I, doesn't like his knees in his chin. :)

Oh... crap. I just typed all that and now understand your joke. Yes... that's my OTHER baby. I have six: two humans, three dogs and a car. ;) :P

[Bluenorthwest]

109. NIce car, now show us your lables

Because I'd bet that guzzler that most of you clothing is not American made, nor you aplliances, large or small. I bet the computer you are using to post was built in Asia.
Just saying. Autos are not the only Union. And I'll bet you watch entertainments and never ponder the Union status of the makers, buy socks without looking at the lables, and all of that.
It is easy to make a major purchase and point at it in public. Show us your collars. Show us your toasters. You wish to judge folks by their automobile, well, some of us look at other purchases as well. Maybe you just like that sort of car. I don't. Maybe you want it.
Those shirts, that underwear, your flooring, your food. These are daily and weekly purchases, and unlike a few times in a lifetime auto buy, seeing to Union for the rest of it is not so easy.
So just know that while you judge folks by the car they drive, I'm looking at your personal cloting and thinking about the same thing. I say you must be crazy son, where did you get those shoes?

[Bluzmann57]

134. I have never owned a foreign car

And I never intend to. I am in agreement with you about the hatred for the U.S. auto industry and the UAW around here. I hope that all the people who never buy American are happy when they can no longer buy American or foreign because of massive job losses. That will happen if the U.S. auto industry dies.

[DainBramaged]

150. A typical conversation on DU regarding American cars

Dweezle: American cars suck, they rust and don't have the quality of Rice cookers

Me: Do you own one now?

Dweezle: I haven't owned one since that Vega in 1973, (or) my parents owned one in the 80's and it was always in the shop blah blah blah (or) I don't drive.

Me: So you have no clue about American cars or how good they have been for the past decade?

Dweezle: <crickets>.

[taught_me_patience]

167. There are so many things wrong with american cars

that it is hard to count. My last american car was a 2001 Ford Crown Victoria. Let me count the problems:

1) It had only 230 HP from a V8. This is horrible performance, which I attribute to lack of dual overhead cams. Why is Ford using technology developed in the 60's (single overhead cam and 2v/cyl.). Many v6's get better performance.
2) 17mpg city and 19mpg hwy. Horrible mileage
3) 8 individual ignition coils! WTF was wrong with having one coil to fire all eight cylinders like they had for 40 years? A coil would burn out every three months, causing horrible missfire.
4) Leaky rear axle seals (70k miles). I don't understand why Ford is still using a solid rear axle? WTF!?!?! They can't even get a 40y.o. technology correct.
5) Horrible cheezy plastic interior for a 30k car. It wasn't even suitable for a Toyota Corolla.
6) Body of frame technology (once again old technoloy) making for a suprisingly bumpy ride for a 4,000 lb car.
7) Poor interior design meant a back seat leg room that was smaller than my sister's Honda Civic coupe!

My main complaint is Ford using older technology in one of their "luxury" cars. This caused poor power, poor ride, poor passenger comfort, and more mechanical problems.

[DainBramaged]

178. Whatever. Blame the whole industry for one car from SEVEN years ago

Why did you buy it is the first place??? Anyone with a clue KNEW the Crown Vic had to have the Police Package to be worthwhile, and it's only good for Limo service and police cars. You should have bought a Taurus, but then you'd probably have something else to complain about.

[taught_me_patience]

198. Why are you making excuses for Detriot building

a shitty $30k car? It was a police package car. The tires were nice 235's in the rear, which made for good handling for a 4,000lb car but probably contributed to the poor gas mileage on the highway.

[DainBramaged]

209. If you wanted a gas millage car, why the hell did you buy it?????

I had 235's on my Blazer, give me a break. You should have bought a Grand Prix or Bonneville with the supercharger for that year, 235hp, front wheel drive, high 20's on the highway, AND IT WOULD STILL BE RUNNING.

FORD Found On Highway Dead

[neverforget]

211. I own 2 Fords: 1999 Ford Ranger and a 2001 Ford Escape. They have

been excellent vehicles with only minor problems.

[DainBramaged]

212. That didn't asnwer my question?

In 2003 Ford came out with a gussied up Vic known as the Mercury Marauder, THAT is the one you should have bought

[neverforget]

213. I was just saying

[rucognizant]

54. Because they are hateful!

I have been driving VW diesel Rabbits since 1981. THEY GET 50 MPG, and only about $1,000 in maintainance
It has allowed me the luxury of following MY value system, creating art and helping people with out having to stress and sell out to support my life style. The Germans don't need the planned deterioration that dictates trading in a car every couple of years.
It drives like a sports car, and is great in snow & ice! It doesn't have all that computerized, & elctronic complication to have to repair. I had a rental American model in CA once, SF to San DIego..........It broke down at Santa Barbara I had to stay overnight, before I could get another from the rental company, & I just made my fight in SD and missed touring the town! I had a driving job at one point whenthe reagna bush recession hit, using the company Ford Taurus cars. I understood in the first mile how easy it would be to drive off the road in a moment of inattention! ( The lack of power steering with m standard shift is a little work and after a long trip, you have "worked". ANd between Maine and Ca on that road trip I wittled 1" from my waistline. People with power steering PAY MONEY TO GO TO A GYMN & workout!
THose ugly little rolling coffins with the teensey back & side windows are awful, then they came out wih SUVs and people I have asked say they feel safer.............FEAR flavored koolade. I have been to Oregon via the southern route from MAine and back and from Maine to FLorida and back,& I Am still here! On the few occasins i have gotten stranded..the seats roll back so you can sleep in the car.
I realize the diesel engone isn't the most "green " engine, BUT those ingenious Gerk mans have designed one that meets emmission standards that is coming out this year. ( '09)
BIG 3 CEOs are undoubtedly ALL Repigs!

[lumberjack_jeff]

136. Dog owning driver of a Chevy truck here. No wonder I get such a ration 'o crap.

I think the dog might even be part pit bull.

Our main commuter is a Dodge Caliber. Comfy, big cargo capacity, reliable 30+ mpg and inexpensive to buy and insure. Love it.

I often think that some posters are fine with putting all labor out of work, until they begin competing for the poster's barista job.

[ExPatLeftist]

149. The problem with that is that most "US cars" are not even made in the US any more. n/t

[JNelson6563]

23. Thank you.

I have been sickened by the attitude here. Michigan of course is in the center of this. It's almost as though many wish we'd secede and hook up with Canada (now that the election is over and MI's in the Dem column, of course).

Frankly the heartlessness toward the countless who are suffering much misery often makes me think of FR and it's more horrific than the primary wars (when many pretended to give a shit but have dropped the facade post election).

Julie

[1gobluedem]

118. Just wait until there is a major drought

And they beg for our water. Michigan might matter again then.

[AtheistCrusader]

146. Hey, why not.

The last Ford I bought was made in Canada anyway.

Emphasis on last.

[tjwash]

24. I'd really like to see a link of any DU'ers or threads spouting off "greedy union" stuff please.

Because what I have seen here is pretty much the opposite.

Most of the threads here are condemning the executives and ceo for their very poor lack of vision, their past unwillingness to change from gas guzzling cars and go to more fuel efficient vehicles, and the concern that they are probably going to dump any massive bailout into their very profitable overseas operations, and executive bonuses and golden parachutes.

[madmom]

153. Well I was going to link you to one I had yesterday but when I went to it it was deleted, how

convenient. The poster was talking about how the "party" was over for the $70 an hour high school drop outs.

[hogwyld]

201. Wow! I didn't realize the auto workers

were making $70 bucks an hour! I make less than half of that and salary to boot. No wonder why we can't compete on price. However, making that kind of money, I would think that they would be more attentive to quality workmanship.

[AndyTiedye]

25. Most Posters Here Blame the Auto Companies' Management

I haven't seen a lot of posts about "greedy union workers". There are quite a few about stupid management at the auto companies,
including some of mine. Though I do not advocate "letting them die", they will die if they don't change, and fast.

A bailout will only help if they can stop taking on water.

That doesn't mean "screw the workers".

It does mean building for everyman, not just for those who have money to burn in the gas tank.

[TankLV]

28. It's "funny" at now that all these SOUTHERN no-name cities are in distress, NOW we're concerned...

but twenty/thirty years ago, nobody care about established cities such as BUFFALO and others with HUBDREDS OF THOUSANDS of skilled UNION workers in the auto and steel industries, and they all STILL telling these place to "suck it up" and "move on"...

I'll express concern for only AFTER something is done to help THESE EXISTING places...

sorry if this spoils your "woe is me" rant...

[mistertrickster]

30. K&R'd--Economic injustice continues to be the biggest problem we face in the US.

It's been masked by injustice based on race, gender and sexual orientation, but it remains the BIG ONE.

If you don't have money in America, you don't got nuthin'.

Blaming the unions for car-makers' problems is like blaming the housewife for colliding with her drunken husband's fist.

[MichiganVote]

32. If we don't stick together we have won nothing w/this election. Support Unions.

[JVS]

33. When did union members and their families become human shields for incompetent management to hide...

behind?

[Telly Savalas]

51. If your nose isn't stuck up Bob Nardelli's ass, then you hate union workers.

The shareholders and board of directors at Home Depot were begging him to stay, but he left with the hopes that he could bring the experience and knowledge of the auto industry he gained during his tenure at Home Depot to a leadership position at the Big 3. The humble servants of the working people (aka the executives at the private equity firm Cerberus Capital Management, LP) recognized his talent and appointed him to be the CEO of Chrysler, a car company they own for the sole purpose of promoting the public good.

It's offensive to think that there are paid Corporatist shills at DU who have the audacity to question the genius of Bob Nardelli, a true champion of the working man. Bob Nardelli wakes up every morning thinking of how best to help the lives of union workers. If he says we need to give him $20 billion then the only debate should be whether we should wire it to him of hand it over in imitation-leather brief cases full of $100 bills.

[JVS]

53. Telly!

:rofl:

[LeftyMom]

34. I just don't think a bail-out will work without serious attention to systemic problems.

I'm intentionally omiting Chrysler because they were foreign-owned until recently, though their issues are similar.

1. Design: US manufacturers have consistently ignored details like interior trim and mileage that sell cars. They tend to lag on safety features as well, which are vital in some segments- notably minivans and family cars. Until these matters get attention, it will be hard to sustain demand for their cars without pricing cuts and financing gimicks.

2. Focus: Ford finally has a good small car, for the first time in at least a generation. GM actually has several at Saturn, but is, as usual, not promoting them very well. Their budgets seem based on pushing their more profitable large fleet cars (Ford) and big f'n trucks (both) and SUVs (both) but demand for these vehicles (except the fleet cars, but even those have suffered somewhat) has plummeted and long-term I don't expect it to return to previous highs, even if gas prices stay down, largely due to changes in consumer taste.

3. Reliability: This is the killer issue. On any thread on domestic cars, you'll see story after story along the lines of "I bought a (insert domestic model) I replaced the Heisenberg Compensator (or whatever part) 8 times before I finally traded the damned thing in on a Toyota at 63,000 miles." Even if you've never had that experience yourself, a car is a risky purchase. One horror story about a car that repeatedly left a person on the side of the road, ate expensive parts or shed parts like a cat sheds hair will deter several buyers. Quality sells itself, but once that brand cachet is lost, extra attention to quality is needed to re-establish one's reputation.

4. No "killer ap": The last domestic car that remade the market was the Ford Explorer. Those came out in '91? In the meantime, importers have moved minivans from truck to car bases (domestics followed but lost their market dominance,) reinvigorated small cars (domestics followed with limited success,) introduced hybrids (domestics lagged and met limited success,) moved into segments previously dominated or monopolized by domestics (large sedans, luxury vehicles, minivans, big trucks, SUVs.) The big design idea from domestic manufacturers? New cars that look kinda retro, and recycling old names.

5. External costs: Too many dealers, health care, higher warranty costs... All of these have been beaten to death. The real problem is that in most segments, the domestic car just doesn't offer the bang for the buck of the Japanese import. You can't guilt people into buying a car, you have to make a car they want.

Throwing money at domestic car companies won't do much good if they don't have a plan for making cars they can sell profitably.

And before anybody goes off half-cocked, I drive a Saturn.

[bertman]

41. Excellent reply LeftyMom. And every one of the points you listed are directly attributable

to BAD MANAGEMENT and absolutely NO VISION of what the performance values of autos of the future would need to be like. They get points for style and an "F" for substance.

[tclambert]

187. They really are addressing all of that. They got smacked in the head with a 2 x4

a few years ago and even management woke up. The problem is they can't miracle up a new car line overnight. It takes something like 4 or 5 years. I just heard a prediction on the TV news that the US car companies will be more profitable than ever in two years time, if they can hang on that long. Mark my words, you're gonna like the 2010 models. And I've heard really good things about the new Malibus.

As to the Heisenberg Compensators, I am uncertain what they are doing about that. :P

[RedCappedBandit]

36. If we bail them out, should/would there be some conditions?

For instance, couldn't we force them to put more resources into developing and distributing more efficient vehicles?
Quality standards?
etc.

[raccoon]

108. THere should be the condition of getting rid of all the head up their arse

management who caused the problem in the first place. And get some people in who know that you make what the customers WANT TO BUY, not what YOU want THEM to buy.

[tclambert]

184. Yes, make it a loan.

In a few years they will be able to pay it back. Like Chrysler did with the bailout Lee Iacocca arranged.

[earth mom]

37. Excellent Post! The reason for the union worker hate is that here are a lot of DINOS on DU.

Many of them think that by supporting Obama that makes them liberal somehow. :eyes:

But they out themselves when they start bashing unions or union workers and cheerleading the $700 billion bailout ripoff. :grr:

[sarcasmo]

38. Kick and Nom to save my Father's pension.

[NEOhiodemocrat]

103. Thank you

for wanting to protect your father's pension, my husband's, my three brother's and many many other retirees. I can't imagine the blowback if the government lets the car companies die. I know that there needs to be changes made, but we are real people who will bear the blunt of the damage this will wreck on the economy.

[MaryEllen9399]

210. also my father in law's and Aunt's as well nt

[Samantha]

215. I back a bailout for the auto workers 100 percent

I am sorry your family is facing this and I am sorry I saw this thread too late to recommend it either. I don't know who these people are either who are simply willing to turn their facea from the auto workers extreme, dire condition.

Sam

[Steerpike_Denver]

39. As Bernie Sanders said,

If a company is "too big to fail", then it's too big to exist! They should do like they did with Ma Bell, and break GM into smaller, independent, competing businesses. Let there be a Chevrolet Corp., a Buick Corp., A Saturn Corp., a GMC Corp., etc. As separate companies, they could compete with each other, and make better cars, or die out without taking the whole country down with them. This used to be called "trust busting", and was originated by a very popular Republican president, you may recall.

[KoKo]

40. I don't think "DU" is representative of Dem Party, anymore. So I wouldn't take what you read here

very seriously. Sorry...but been here a long time and have learned that most of this here is not too serious.

If you want serious...go off to the blogs not here or that other one that are "Discussion Group Forums" and not "serious." :shrug: It wasn't like that at one time...but it's like that now.

[elocs]

44. I think we need a hard and fast litmus test that must be passed in order to be a Democrat.

Also, loyalty oaths would be good. You either toe the line, or you are out. Everybody needs to believe the same.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

45. I Fail To See Why Their Being Union Means A Rat's Ass Thing. It Doesn't.

Doesn't make them any better or more deserving than any other worker.

And for the record, the mismanagement and piss poor business plan are definitely the biggest reasons for the demise. But the UAW definitely shares some of the blame as well. Not as much, but enough.

[sarcasmo]

204. No surprise here, weren't you the Thank God it passed guy, all for the banks getting their coin?

[electricD]

46. I typed this into another post yesterday

electricD (18 posts) Sat Nov-15-08 04:40 PM
Response to Original message
17. if I've said it once
I've said it a thousand times. In the past 30 to 40 years the politicians that have catered so well to big business and union busting. They've done one helluva job making sure the AMERICAN WORKER has been satisfied with mediocrity. They've made sure the AMERICAN WORKER remembers, "atleast you've got a job", and "watch out for yourself, you could be next" as they steadily outsource OUR jobs to 3rd world countries.

It's really amazing to me that we have child labor laws and anti-slavery laws, ets. enforced in this country but it's quite ok for these businesses to close the plant down here and move it to a 3rd world country and have those factory workers working for merely pennies a day. I mean, the worthless president we have now said that "it was just good business to close a plant here and open one up overseas if they could change their profit margin from $50,000,000 a year to $500,000,000 a year." And THAT my friends was said 6 weeks before he was elected a second term. Why would ANY ONE think that he had the American worker in his best interest?

We've had SO MANY people fight and die for our freedoms to be able to organize, join and be active in unions to make sure that we are paid an honest days pay for an honest days work. Why does it seem that we've forgotten what those people did for us?

I hate to say it folks but, things are going to get uglier before they get pretty again. People are going to have to start fighting for what it rightfully our's again. I've never been a big fan of country music myself but, the one song that always stays in my head is, You've Got To Stand For Something, Or You'll Fall For Anything. Basically, STOP being so naive in thinking that big business will honor the fruits of our labor and pay us decently and START STANDING UP!! for what is our's. NO ONE, ESPECIALLY, big business, cares for the working class. STOP thinking the republican mantra of "I've got mine so, FUCK YOU." STAND UP and band together because the ONLY way we're going to get what is our's is to get it togther. NO MAN STANDS ALONE!!!

I've seen and read so many times of how the UAW and many other unions have given concessions to these big businesses only to have their pensions, insurance and hourly wages cut and cut again. I've seen them give concessions only to have 6 months or less go by and have major lay-offs and the plants that many of them had worked in for so many years shut down, only to have a new one moved to these 3rd world countries. The whole time the execs get millions and millions in bonuses.

This is NOT the fault of the union workers. This is the fault of these execs that are more concerned about their pockets. Did any one actually ever think to ask the question, Why or HOW the hell do these people think they deserve to make $20million to $100million or more a year? These are the same people that have put out the ads and the rumors that union workers are lazy and don't deserve what they get paid. If you take away those execs healthy bonuses they won't have the abilties to slander our workers. Thus, they either have to sink that money back into the company OR they end up giving proper raises and benefits to the workers. either way, it's a win, win situation for labor.

Now, I'm going to admit, SOME union workers ARE lazy. BUT, I will definately say that SOME non-union workers are lazy too. I'm one of few people that can say that I've worked both sides of the union/non-union fence. I've seen the bad and good workers on both sides. I've also seen the good workers on the non-union side exploited as bad, if not worse, than that of the bad workers. The whole time, employers are getting filthy rich off of them.

So, in closing, thank you all for allowing me to rant but also, when you think about unions giving concessions to these companies, think about who it's really going to benefit. Us or them? Oh yeah and I Kick.

[OwnedByFerrets]

48. K and R

[mirror wall]

49. One thing for people who are opposed to giving bailout money to the auto industry is,,,

that the 50bil will be given away one way or another. Someone's gonna get it. Why the hell would you advocate for giving it to a bank or another financial institution over giving it to an industry that supports millions of people? That, to me, is utterly insane.

It probably is just a vocal minority who lack critical thinking skills that are opposed to this, try not to take them too seriously.

[Mithreal]

50. Those So-Called Dems are Anti-Union Trolls

And anyone in the Congress who works against unions deserves a swift kick in the ass and a swifter end to his or her career. Call them out when you see them. We do not need to make nice, our families and America's future depend upon our smacking them back down. If you think you are a sincere Dem who cannot support Unions, then honestly you are not welcome in my party. The tent just isn't big enough, sorry.

[greengestalt]

56. Don't pidgenhole me

I'm sick of all this Polarization argument, that because I'm "Leftist" I necessarily believe.... this or that hogwash from the minds of Talk radio... I'm not for dumping money down a drain as long as a few pampered workers keep good ol' boy jobs and the CEO gets billions. I'm for paying to keep good jobs working so it improves the economy and helps reward good companies and good workers.


American business has been as complacent and uncaring as it has been greedy and corrupt. The auto industry here has steadily drove itself into a ditch for decades and raved it was somehow good for "Protecting American jobs". They kept cranking out deadly gas guzzlers while more and more people bought cars that were either nicer, or affordable. For the record, I buy American cars. Used compact ones from decades past... I'm going to get a van ASAP and rig in an electric assist for 'round town junk. If we end up with another "Great Depression" it'll be cheaper to fix gadgets than to buy new ones and I'll make it just fine, especially with a van to haul stuff...


The auto company could turn this garbage truck to heck around in a year if they innovated and adjusted for the times....


Here's what I want, automakers, what will make me actually want to buy a new car:

Think "Re-Invent the VW bug, VW Van and add a truck"

Think "Simple, efficient construction, user serviceable parts"

Think "Spartan and CHEAP, but plenty of room to 'Trick yer Ride' and/or 'Make it Groooovy!'"



Imagine a basic setup. No paint job, just a rust-resistant coating. Engine, seats, wheels, regulation lights, basic body. No F*cking microchips or if there MUST be they are USB programmable so if they cook you buy and off the shelf one and reprogram it with public domain specs OR DIY modify them yourself. I want the engine to be simple, so 'flex' fuels can be used. Gasoline, methane, etc... I want the transmission simple, hopefully MANUAL. I want a FRAME, even in the "Bug", not bent strips a few coke cans wide.

Make the price as cheap as possible, but still profitable. I'd bet they could do it for US$6000, the cost of the parts of even $20K cars is rumored to be US$450... And only a few $ went to labor and equipment, the rest to the CEOs. Not only have they made us crud, they scalped us for the price, how else did the foreign cars do so much for so little cost?


So, how will they make their money? How will all the "Dependant industries" make their money?

They'll make a LOT and they'll deserve it this time.


First of all, we'll either paint it ourselves or get a paint job. Modern tech we could custom print a design. Then we'll buy radios, heating and cooling systems, better seats. The vans will become new "Hippie love shacks" with carpets, wood paneling and stereos, the trucks will have lifts and pull chains. Cars that do frequent limited driving in town (my main use) will rig up "electric assists" to save gas. And there will be parts parts parts. Standard makes and models for decades means it is easy and non-wasteful to produce lots of replacement parts. Ones users either re-place themselves or hire mechanics to do. The mechanic profession will grow as these cars will be a "Cake walk" to service and a joy to upgrade.


Cause, if you don't, CHINA or India will make one like this. I think the latter is starting to already and frankly I might buy one (or an Auto rickshaw) when I go there for a vacation in a year or so...

[DainBramaged]

193. "Pampered workers"???

You exposed yourself right there jackass.

[IsItJustMe]

57. K&R

You won't here me talking that Republican non-sense.

[StreetKnowledge]

59. The Management is responsible for their past mistakes

Not the guys on the line.

The UAW guys in many cases are lazy buggers. But in many more cases they are hard working men and women who do their jobs every day with pride, and earn every penny they make. The lazy idiots should get canned. The hard workers shouldn't. GM, Ford and Chrysler are American institutions who directly employ hundreds of thousands and indirectly employ millions. We're supposed to see a restructure, which will probably kill the UAW and result in many of these people seeing their wages drop like a rock?

No, sir. Bail them out, force Rick Wagoner and Bob Nardelli into early retirement, and go through the management ranks with a chainsaw. I know, they are people too, but there is way too many chiefs, not enough Indians. Get better cars on the road (though none of the Big 3 are really behind in this regard, the perception is that they are behind, and its false) and go back after the imports.

It can, and will, be done.

[spag68]

60. Unions

I don't keep a journal, too unsophisticated about computers, I guess. Since I have been here, I have ranted against the supposed progressives that seem so virulently anti-union. I have not defended the Car companies, but I have defended the workers. The big corporate money will always seek ways to keep some kind of split among workers, always have always will. It is only through collective bargaining that we have any power over the money changers. They will do or say anything to keep us from interfering with the almighty profit. Obama is our last hope, and if he fails, we all lose. I only hope to see the day when we have a true caring society, that values a persons labor. The right to a dignified life will not come easy, as too many people are unduly influenced by the MSM. This is of course by design, take notice that the brown people are the new black people. Keep up the fight brothers and sisters, as we may be the last hope of our world. The fight is here, not in Asia, not in Europe, and certainly not Russia, but here. If it can't be done here, it can't be done.


Give it up for love thy neighbor, we all need it.

[DUlover2909]

65. I would never blame a union for a bad business model. That's managements fuckup.

[Greyhound]

66. Where were you in the 80s?

We of the Republik and Democratic parties of America have stood by cheering as millions upon millions of families have been reduced to poverty and destroyed. Our cities and states have never recovered from our inaction over the last 30 years as more and more of our wealth has been shoveled up to the top of the parasite chain.

Now you're surprised by this abandonment? This is the New World Order and we begged for it.

[MrCoffee]

170. As a PATCO survivor, I would rec your response if possible.

The same unions that stood aside and let St. Ronnie the Fucking Shitstain kill PATCO are now crying and moaning about how bad they have it?

Fuck 'em like they fucked my family.

[Greyhound]

177. I'm not religious but, AMEN.

Ironic isn't it? Just like UAW, teamsters, etc. allowed the parasites to take over their leadership and actually helped that scumbag destroy your lives and our nation, now they're in absolute panic because they see that the blood-suckers are coming after them. Vengeance is very tempting.

Is it possible to get a post of first-hand account of what life was, and has been, since that asshole convinced the country to take that wildly wrong turn?

You guys in PATCO and the steelworkers and the farmers and the rest of what used to be the American manufacturing sector could really help. We now have an entire generation of people now that have never known what American life is supposed to be like, I think personal accounts of what we allowed would be educational.

If not, that's cool too, it's just good to know you are still here, still paying attention.

[SmileyRose]

203. Where was I? Picketing - marching - writing congress - buying American

Democratic Underground was not here in the 80's. I have been here a few months and thought I'd found a place with genuine progressives. Seeing them blame carmaker troubles on union workers is a bit of a shock.

[Greyhound]

208. I know, it's like living a Kafka novel. n/t

[ksimons]

67. not a good sign when all sides don't see a need to work together

"Auto Workers Union Rules Out Concessions To Help Detroit Bailout"

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/11/16/auto-workers-union-rules_n_144220.html

guess that says it all - the 'cutting off your nose despite your face' argument

[Hannah Bell]

79. Thirty years of concessions ain't enough for ya?

But never fear, the UAW (cough) leadership always says such things: right before they concede.

[jpljr77]

132. OK, I'm sorry. But what exactly is the average hourly wage of GM union autoworkers?

I am definitely not anti-union, but some of the statements in this thread border on propaganda. To read this, you'd think we're talking about workers with 25+ years in making around $50,000 a year.

Of course, we all know it's a different story.

UAW knew exactly what they were doing with their "concessions."

[Hannah Bell]

154. you don't know shit. new hires start at $14/hr, & the average wage for non-administrative

lineworkers is 20-22.

[jpljr77]

159. Someone here doesn't know shit, that's for sure.

Not sure where you're getting your numbers, but according to the Center for Automotive Research (I plead ignorance on this group -- I have no idea what their angle is), non-skilled production workers for the Big 3 make an average of $67,000 in WAGES. It goes to $81,000 for the skilled workers.

Hell, the UAW contract itself calls for a base hourly pay rate of $28.12 for GM, $28.05 for Chrysler, and $28.13 for Ford.

But of course, I am not attached to this industry, so tell me why you are righter than me. I actually am willing to listen.

[Hannah Bell]

195. Here: 2007 contract.

1. UAW takes over retirement healthcare: GM saves 16 billion plus.

"GM will pay an estimated $35 billion into a trust designed to appreciate in value and pay health-care benefits for retired workers for at least the next 80 years, the union estimated. In return, GM is able to unload a $51 billion burden in retiree health-care obligations from its books"


2. Cost of living raises: gone, in return for (apparently worthless) job security assurance.

"In exchange for giving up annual raises over the course of the contract and allowing GM to pay new workers a lower wage, the union got job-security assurances."


3. Non-core jobs (GM gets to define them) start at $14/hr.

"GM will be allowed to pay as little as $14 to $15 an hour to employees in non-manufacturing jobs that once paid as much as $28 as hour, as openings come up."


4. Not in the article, but: new workers don't get pensions, they get 401ks, & they get worse health care benefits.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/09/26/AR2007092600155.html


When you look further into the details, it gets worse:

http://www.soldiersofsolidarity.com/files/relatednewsandreports07-2/GM-UAW2007LOWLIGHTS.html


Average wages:

"The average UAW-represented GM assembly line worker makes just under $28 per hour now before health-care and other benefits that take total hourly labor costs to $73, the automaker has said."

http://www.reuters.com/article/businessNews/idUSN0432128020071004

That's per GM, & that is: $58,240 straight time.

The additional benefits include healthcare (now offloaded), retirement (partly offloaded), employers portion of FICA, workmans' comp, OT, etc.


"How much are current UAW auto industry wages?

In 2006 a typical UAW-represented assembler at GM earned $27.81 per hour of straight-time labor. A typical UAW-represented skilled-trades worker at GM earned $32.32 per hour of straight-time labor. Between 2003 and 2006, the wages of a typical UAW assembler have grown at about the same rate as wages in the private sector as a whole – roughly 9 percent. Part of that growth is due to cost-of-living adjustments that have helped prevent inflation from eroding the purchasing power of workers’ wages.

What is the compensation for auto industry executives?

The CEOs of Chrysler Group, Ford and GM earned a combined total of $24.5 million in salaries, bonuses and other compensation in 2006.

The next four highest paid executives received average salary and other compensation of $1.3 million at Ford and $1.4 million at GM. These substantial sums do not include the value of stocks and stock options that were also part of executive compensation.

Why is the figure cited as hourly labor costs by the companies so much higher than the wage rates?

In addition to regular hourly pay, the labor cost figures cited by the companies include other expenses associated with having a person on payroll. This includes overtime, shift premiums and the costs of negotiated benefits such as holidays, vacations, health care, pensions and education and training. It also includes statutory costs, which employers are required to pay by law, such as federal contributions for Social Security and Medicare, and state payments to workers’ compensation and unemployment insurance funds. The highest figures sometimes cited also include the benefit costs of retirees who are no longer on the payroll.

How much value do UAW members contribute to their employers?

American autoworkers are among the most productive workers in the world. According to the U.S. Census Bureau, the typical autoworker produces value added worth $206 per worker per hour.1 This is far more than he or she earns in wages, even when benefits, statutory contributions and other costs are included.

How much are labor costs in relation to the total price of a new vehicle?

The total labor cost of a new vehicle produced in the United States is about $2,400,2 which includes direct, indirect and salaried labor for engines, stamping and assembly at the automakers’ plants.

This represents 8.4 percent of the typical $28,4513 price of a new vehicle in 2006. The vast majority of the costs of producing a vehicle and transporting it to a dealership and preparing it for sale – including design, engineering, marketing, raw materials, executive compensation and other costs – are not related to direct or indirect manufacturing labor.



You may be too young to understand, but autoworkers have been making concessions for 30 years. In 1980 there were ~750,000 lineworkers: today less than 200,000, but they produce more cars - for less.

http://www.uaw.org/barg/07fact/fact02.php

Labor cost is <10% of the cost of a vehicle industry-wide. It is not the cause of the US industry's problems.

[SmileyRose]

205. Your numbers are lies.

Wherever you got them, that source lied.

The last contract included serious wage and benefit concessions. New hires start at about $14. My uncle, who is in his late 50's, disabled, and lives with us (he's only a few years old than I am) retired from Ford in 2005 on the 30 and out plan. His HIGHEST hourly wage was in 2001 at $20.19 - that's at 26 years seniority as a regular schmuck working on the assembly line (non skilled production worker). His HIGHEST yearly income was in 1992 - he worked 60 hours a week almost the whole year, did not take his vacation time and got that paid out as extra income, throw in all bonus or profit sharing he may have gotten -- all of it including the overtime came to just under $52,000.

Considerable wage and benefit concessions were made in the last contract. There is no way in hell the AVERAGE NON SKILLED PRODUCTION WORKER is making $67,000 - probably not even on 12 hrs 7 days. Not one chance in hell.

[BrklynLiberal]

68. K&R.

Without unions we would have none of the benefits that are taken for granted today. People actually died, were killed, during the time that unions were first starting up.
Unions were also very good to Barack Obama during the election.
I think that their members deserve the respect and consideration that they have earned.

Do not allow a bailout for the auto industry to be the start of union busting.

[camera obscura]

69. Agreed totally.

We have to take the course of action that causes the greatest help to the greatest amount of deserving people. We can punish the undeserving ones afterward.

This idea of screwing innocent people over to make sure the CEOs don't get away with anything is really reprehensible.

[Undercurrent]

70. The anti auto company

bail out is, at it's heart, anti union, anti family, and anti worker, with some of the hardest hit being retired, and disabled auto workers.

The anti bailout crowd are either blind to the larger picture, or dirt stupid. If any or all of the big 3 go down it will drag the entire country into a depression.

If selfishness is their motive, it's a sure is a twisted form of selfishness. Self destructive selfishness. Kind of like two guys in a rowboat that springs a leak, and one guy tells the other, "Hey, your end of the boat is sinking!"

Duh!


Of course any bailout and or loan plan must require an absolute written commitment to a series of steps toward green cars. If they don't agree to rules, oversight, and green cars, they get no money.

[HPD]

71. As a Detroiter who recently lost his job due to struggling Big Three

I have to say that most people simply are ignorant on the big picture and how they are connected to the Big Three even if they do not directly work for any of them. For most, they think it won't affect them. It will!! The Big Three all together employ 200-something-Thousand people. But if they go under, the total jobs lost will be around 2 million if you count their suppliers and other businesses directly tied in with them. Then on top of that, there are more business and jobs that will be lost in addition to the first tier (direct employees) and second tier (clients and suppliers) workers of the auto industry.

As for me. I work in Video post production. Detroit is considered third biggest video post production provider in the country--behind NYC and Los Angeles--precisely because of the Big Three and all the video work they and their supportive businesses need. In the past year two major post houses have closed down to to a huge slowdown in business. So you will be surprised. Work is hard to find.

This isn't about unions being screwed. This is about everyone being screwed.

INVEST IN YOUR FUTURE!!! BUY AMERICAN!!!!

Speaking of buying American. I think it's time for a Buy American campaign. The Big Three would be smart to start up such a campaign and put ads in papers, TV, radio etc. People need to be educated why it's important to buy American--how they are affected. I am absolutely dumbfounded by the amount of foreign cars right here in Detroit. Here are people who complain about their home values rapidly dropping and yet they don't get why? BUY AN AMERICAN CAR you dipshit.

[shireen]

80. American cars

I am sorry you lost your job. What's happening to you and millions of others across this country is horrible. I also support unions, and would like to see more and more workers represented by unions.

It's good to buy American, and support our manufacturing base. But there has to be some practicality injected into this discussion as well. For most people, buying a car is a very big expense. When we make our selection, we do our homework, to find out as much as possible about reliability and fuel economy. As consumers, we want the best value for our money.

After reading your post, I went over to the Consumer Reports webpage (I'm an online subscriber), and looked at their ratings based on predicted reliability, owner satisfaction, accident avoidance, crash protection, and miles per gallon. In every vehicle category, Japanese cars dominated the highest ratings. That's been the trend for many years. Ford, however, is starting to enter the ranks of highly rated cars, and they should be applauded and supported for those improvements. But the rest of the American car makers have a lot of catching-up to do.

This is not a criticism of the workers. I believe they are doing the best job possible with what they have. It is the management, at the highest levels, that have been sloppy: too arrogant to find out what consumers really want, too short-sighted to understand the critical importance of fuel economy, too lax in implementing stricter quality control procedures. American buyers responded by buying foreign cars that gave them what they needed.

American automakers need to pay more attention to American consumers. The overpaid CEOs and higher management have been negligent. They need to be thrown out; union workers deserve to have good management that will give them the right resources and tools to make cars that are as good as, or exceed standards established by foreign cars like Toyota, Honda, and BMW.

(edited to fix last sentence)

[Sherman A1]

81. Agreed & Well Said

I am a Union Member and strongly support them, but when I buy a product it has to fit my needs. It must pass the cost v benefit test for me.

I have driven Fords since 1980 and still have a 98 Ranger that I love. Yet, I wanted a commuter car with the highest MPG available and nothing domestic met those needs. I am truly sorry that it didn't, but I the best MPG came from Japan and the best overall cost. I couldn't afford a hybrid so ended up with a Toyota Yaris. Not because some Union worker couldn't build the car I wanted, but because it wasn't designed and built here, decisions made by management. So while I am not at all happy that the car I needed was not constructed domestically, it is serviced locally and it does help cut my fuel usage, so I take what benefits I can from the purchase.

I do want part of the $700 Billion to go to Detroit to retool and save the industry. I would like the Executives sent to Gitmo along with the ones from A.I.G. and a few others. So I support the bailout for the auto industry and will be writing my Congressman and Senators to encourage that.

[shireen]

84. LOL! I think you've found a good use for GITMO! ny

[Sherman A1]

161. Thanks

[Daemonaquila]

168. No, not "Buy American" - MAKE AMERICAN

The problem isn't that people aren't buying American, but that in so many industries there isn't any way to do so. Manufacturing jobs, union and non-union alike, have disappeared overseas in the name of catering to Wal-Mart's favors and satisfying the desire for $39 DVD players and such in big-box retail. In the majority of categories of goods, you can't buy American if you tried. Even if you can, scratch the service and you'll see that the materials or parts come from overseas.

People, union and non-union, need to get behind the idea that we have to bring manufacturing back to the USA. We need to re-unionize. We can not survive as a nation of fast food workers and hand packagers of goods that come to our shores in container ships.

I am dismayed by how few people we see marching on May Day. I am dismayed by the lack of vision - people all looking to save their jobs in the short run or ducking the issues because they hope a bailout will help a few people while the heart of the American economy disintegrates. In the end, it's not about the jobs we have today. Saving those jobs is at best temporary, if we focus on the bailout issue. It's about jobs for the next 50 years and on. We have to radically change the way we fight, the way we work, and the way we buy.

[demodonkey]

197. I needed a grease gun. Read what happened HERE:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=389&topic_id=4149966

I finally found a place that sells the "American" Lincoln Grease Gun recommended to me in this thread. Looked at the box. MADE IN CHINA!

[bigbrother05]

73. Noticed the RW shills on Sunday shows

Lots of blah, blah, blah from Shelby (AL-Puke) about not bailing out the automakers. Of course, AL is home to large Mercedes and Honda plants that build SUV and minivans in nonunion shops. No agenda there.

Helping a huge manufacturing base to retool/upgrade would be a whole lot worse than bailing out Wall Street money changers. Shouldn't help an industry that employs thousands of working class folks that pay bills and mortgages instead of one that employs hundreds that have off-shore accounts and multiple homes.

[kerry-is-my-prez]

74. I'm with you 100% and my Dad was a business-owner who hated unions.

I still believe that the "average people" deserve to be treated like human beings with worth.

[ermasdaughter]

75. I could not agree more.

I am mortified that dems would use this particular situation to 'make a stand'. The situation, if allowed to happen, would be devastating beyond our ability to comprehend. Get the 'pound of flesh' from Wall Street. Not Main Street.

[HPD]

76. Clarify.

I am lost at what you are saying.

[davidthegnome]

77. Hmm

I'm really not qualified to say whether a bail out is a good idea or a bad one. I'm no economic genius. But I definitely have only love for the unions and everyone who supports them. And I definitely find top management in most of these companies to be completely despicable.

I'm worried though, about all these figures being thrown around. Hundreds of billions of dollars. After the previous bail out... Jesus, how the hell are we going to pay for it all? The only reason I'd support a bail out in any measure is if it would permit the vast majority of the average employees to keep their jobs. Frankly, I'm just not sure whether I believe that they would (regardless of what those who put the bill together tell us), or whether I believe that the money would be used wisely and appropriately.

Somehow I doubt there will be enough regulations regarding the bail out... I mean, call me a cynic but..

This economic crisis has got me pretty shaken up right now. If I had money to worry about, I'd probably have it locked up in a safe, or would have invested it all in gold and locked the gold in a safe. We're in trouble... and most people, I think, like me, aren't quite sure what the right solutions are.

What's worse is that we have lost our faith in our Nation's (or at the very least, our government's) ability to manage or regulate all of this. I have some hope for Obama... but I'm not going to curse him or hate him if he fails. He's got the biggest job of the century on his hands, cleaning up after these neocon assholes. It's scary, hell, terrifying if you think of what this crisis might eventually lead to.

If I had faith that the bail out would help the average American worker and not somehow end up in the hands of already rich and greedy pricks, I'd be 100% behind it.

[Hannah Bell]

78. First, it doesn't matter a good goddamn what anyone on DU says, because it's not the folks on DU

who are going to make the call. It's the PTB, & they're not listening to you OR the public in general, as I think the bankster bailout demonstrated very clearly.

Second, the only way they MIGHT listen to DU, or the public, is to organize massively to MAKE them listen. I don't mean just massive calls & letters to reps (they got that in the bankster bailout), I mean marches on gov't & corporate offices, occupations, the building of an organization that doesn't go away once some concession is achieved & can't be bought off at the upper levels. Have you ever tried to organize something like that?

Third, the folks in the auto industry, being most directly affected, are the folks who should be leading the way. Where's the effort? Where's the organizing, where's the effort to draw outsiders into the effort, where are the marches on gov't & corporate offices, where's the push to hold the CEO's feet to the fire, where's the union? Where's the effort to hold the union leadership's feet to the fire?

Oh, wait, they just made contracts to start new hires at $14/hour.

Here's what I believe: with or without cash from the public till, "our" carcorps will lay off workers, screw their pensioners, move plant & jigger their books to reduce their costs here & enter the new "emerging" markets (Russia now the biggest auto market in europe), with their superprofits.

And decisions about bailout $ will be made by the PTB, in their own interest, not yours.

And you're sitting here bitching about what people on a chatboard say, as if they were "the deciders".

[TexasObserver]

83. Yes, we have some bitter people who don't have the empathy typical of progressives.

I opposed the Wall street bailout, but this is not anything remotely similar. It's a sum of money equal to two or three months of Iraq, for God's sake! It's badly needed in a state that is dying from unemployment and needs to retain jobs.

We need standards to make sure we're not rewarding the jackasses who got the cart in the ditch, but we must not focus on punishing them at the expense of tens of thousands of jobs for Democrats.

If we don't go to bat for them, who will?!

[Omaha Steve]

85. Great post

Nice to see this at the top of the R list.

I'd like to see more of the pro union DUers visiting the Labor Forum: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topics&forum=367

K&R!

[Silent3]

175. When I look at this graphic in your sig...

I find myself thinking, "For every CEO fired, 395 workers could be paid."

[obiwan]

86. Damn right they would survive.

I was a white collar worker who survived 38 years without benefit of a union. The root cause for unions is fine by me- to protect workers against unscrupulous employers and/or unsafe working practices. That's in theory. In practice, my experience has shown me that the union protects greed, corruption, and ineptness in some cases. The unsafe demands of a union steward on of my jobs caused me to deliver tooling to the production area on an unsafe schedule in an unsafe manner because this yahoo was either unwilling or unable to plan in a reasonable or safe manner. Because I did not have union "protection", I got my ass reprimanded for trying to do my job because of this guy's ineptness. The company is long gone, probably aided by situations such as these. Those of you, most of you, who are hard working union members, probably know a union member like this who screws it up for those trying to make an honest living.

BTW one day I snuck up on this guy with a forklift while he was taking a smoke break in a smoking cage. I hoisted this guy up in the smoking cage with the forklift and held him several feet in the air until he agreed to act more responsibly and plan better. I got reprimanded but it was worth it. Before that, he asked for a tooling delivery 5 minutes before my quitting time. I delivered about 1000 lbs. of tooling to him and placed it on his desk with the forklift. Again, a reprimand, and again, it was worth it.

GM should be allowed to die. We the people shouldn't have to bail out a dysfunctional institution run by greedy and/or incompetent management, and staffed by workers who make good wages and in some cases are hiding out. We shouldn't have to bail out a company who , by will, doesn't produce an appropriate product and has the ability to do so.

The primary motivator for companies like GM is human greed, pure and simple, on all levels. I am 100% disabled with MS and I am living on less money than I was 20 years ago, and my wife has burned through her lifetime insurance due to a bypass operation after working for 30 years for the same employer. Now her only insurance is Medicare.

Sooner or later we will lose our house. It's been in the family since 1975.I am 54 and my wife is 59. I started to take care of myself when I was 17, my wife when she was 18. Tear in our beer? I don't think so. This is reality, and sometimes it sucks. So now what do we do, kill ourselves? I don't think so.

I sure don't think hard working Americans should bail out a corrupt, wheezing company where some people are earning $30-$50 per hour. GM should shit or get off the pot. Make appropriate products and operate in a manner that is appropriate for NOW. The rest of the world does. That's reality. To do a bailout with taxpayer money allows GM and other companies to exist in a fairytale world that hasn't existed in 20 years. Don't throw money at these bloated, stinking corpses. Let them die; don't perpetuate a way of life that doesn't exist anymore.

Suck it up, people. Quit bitching and survive. It can be done. It's hard in these times, but you need to deal with reality and quit being spoiled.

[flashback]

87. What about foreign cars built here?

I have seen a lot of posts, but none that take into account the foreign makers that are building cars here and employing a lot of workers. I don't know if it has happened yet, but I remember hearing recently that even VW was opening a plant here (in TN, I think) because it has become cheaper than importing cars.

I don't claim to know all about this issue, but perhaps this is an issue that deserves a place in this discussion.

Thanks.

[ingac70]

90. Coming here for cheaper labor.

A foreign company sends its profits home.

[raccoon]

127. And to protect themselves from the US imposing import quotas.

Or locking them out of the game altogether.

[Blue Gardener]

88. Thank You

For this post. I work for a supplier to the automotive companies. It sickens me the number of people who don't give a crap about my job. I've been on DU for years and don't normally put people on my ignore list, at least not until now. I have no time for people who can be so mean-spirited.

[ingac70]

89. k&r

[Coexist]

93. K & R!

[Daemonaquila]

95. There must be no bailouts for automakers.

I feel for the auto workers, but bailing out the auto makers isn't a solution. This is playing into the age-old fallacy - "Do <insert whatever wrong-headed choice you want here> or it will hurt jobs." This is the weapon of the enemy who wants to force us into <insert whatever wrong-headed choice you want here>, and the cry of the folks who just don't get it that there's always a better 3rd solution.

The same money - LESS money by far - can go to bailing out workers with special unemployment compensation, job retraining, direct jobs programs in Detroit and other affected areas, pension fund bailout, insurance bailout, etc. The US Automakers have been dying for years. A bailout is at best a hideously expensive band-aid that will minimally trickle down to workers for a little while until the huge expenses of the execs and the useless gas-guzzling cars that nobody wants eats it up. Then we're back in the same position - unemployed workers with busted pensions, cars that nobody wants, and execs with their hands out once again.

Sometimes the buggy whip manufacturer has to keel over and become a memory. Other industry, once upon a time, would rise in its place. Today, that would happen overseas. The way to save all the folks working their tails off for the auto industry is to use the cash to create new industry and jobs *here*, and give the affected workers a landing pad while they're waiting and working to make that happen.

[natrat]

105. maybe your right but where was this discussion before giving the 700 billion to bank crooks

[Daemonaquila]

166. The discussion WAS being had - and unfortunately the wrong side won.

I recall just as much discussion re: the investment bank bailout, and took the same position on that one as did many others. Because of that bailout, banks are using the money to buy up other banks instead of taking care of mortgages and borrowers. At least one credit card company (AmEx) has become an investment bank solely to get a piece of the bailout pie. We've bailed out an insurer. Now the automakers are whimpering for a handout. Who's next?

The point is that all of these companies asking for a bailout have had dirty hands in their own (and their industry's) collapse. What enrages me is that these criminals are using the argument "Save the workers!" or "Save the borrowers!" as a way to get money, and I guarantee every one of them will shaft their workers/borrowers as soon as the check is in their accounts.

[pitohui]

191. what new industry do you imagine is going to come about?

there isn't any new industry, this is not a matter of buggy whip makers, people still own and operate cars, however, the oil and gas industry has pretty much stolen all of people's disposable income and ability to plan for the future, hence, people can't buy the newer cars

much of ford's profit came from selling loans rather than the autos, which they had to sell pretty much at cost because of the VERY high cost of providing health care and retirement benefits to workers -- benefits that come to EVERYONE from the gov't in our competing nations that manufacture autos such as germany and japan -- now credit is in the toilet and lower income/lower middle class people don't qualify for loans they can afford -- so the economy is at a standstill -- how is this the auto industry's fault???

i don't think ford ceo's were all greedy SOBs, when william ford was ceo he was not taking a salary -- our infrastructure and the american way of capitalism made us unable to compete because in the classic statement, we were spending as much or more on health care as on the actual metal

there is no new industry coming down the pike, and people will still drive cars, will you turn this important industry over to the japanese and the europeans merely because our gov't is too butt-headed to realize that capitalism don't work and that we need a universal health care system and guaranteed pensions for all...so the individual corps don't have to come up with these things when their overseas competitors don't have these expenses?

what "new" industry do you think is going to be created "here?" the reality is we don't need a "new" industry, we need to be competitive in the gee-dee auto industry that WE created in the first place

CEOs in the banking industry were evil, greedy thieves -- and they got bailed out -- i don't think it's the same thing in the auto industry, in my time as a F investor i wasn't happy w. the terrible stock price or the results but i was impressed that the CEO of the time (william ford) was sincere

[lelgt60]

96. I'm against the bailout of existing senior management

Not against the investment of significant cash to revitalize the auto industry and support the millions of people dependent on it.

We have to differentiate the two. I think many here accused of being anti-union are just expressing their recognition of the fact that a ton of the money will go to executive salaries, and worse, that we'll just end up with the same stupid thinking that got us here in the first place.

In the end, I would vote (if I could) for keeping the jobs, but what I'd really like is appropriate conditions on the money. Certainly the CEO's and boards should resign and be replaced by pro-consumer, pro-employee, pro-USA, pro-planet people. Then we need them to review other senior management positions to see where continued failure or outright fraud has occurred.

[MattSh]

97. OK, lets say we bail out the BIG 3.

Who's going to buy? Most people I know are cutting back to essentials. And a new car ain't essential unless your old one is dead.

Maybe the government can bail car buyers out too. Now the automakers are making cars, and people can buy.

OK then, who gets the bill? There is ALWAYS a bill.

Oh, the taxpayers get the bill. The bill can be paid in several ways. You can be taxed now, meaning the government takes back the money they just gave you as a bailout. Or you can pass the bill on to your children, just like you've been doing the last 30 years. Or maybe even a big dose of hyperinflation. Or a mix of all three.

Oh joy. NOW I get it.

[lelgt60]

99. Yes - the taxpayer gets the bill - that's how we help each other out

When there's tough times for one segment of the population, PRETTY MUCH DUE TO NO FAULT OF THEIR OWN, people in the USA have a tradition of stepping up and helping.

The scenario you paint is is no way the only, or even most likely scenario. Companies get new management and are turned around into successful companies all the time. Unlike many people believe, the unions have typically helped quite a bit in these cases.

I don't think you understand the extent to which a collapse of the auto industry will affect everyone in this country. Appropriate, intelligent restructuring (starting with getting rid of current senior management), and investment, will be far more economically efficient, and will result in far less human suffering.

We need to push for appropriate and intelligent restructuring

[Omaha Steve]

110. Congratulations union members around the country are reading this post this morning

http://www.labourstart.org/usa/


Where trade unionists start their day on the net.

This is the second DU post to be picked up in two weeks time.

[LynneSin]

111. How many of you folks had a job where there was a place to take the dead bodies?

Outside of military of course, I'm talking a regular job here in the states doing non-military work.

My stepfather had a job like that, he worked for the Steel Mills in Pennsylvania. He spent his days hunched over as a welder and to this day is back is in horrible shape.

He once gave me and my nieces & nephews a tour of the plant from the outside. It's along the Susquehanna river so it's a very long but narrow Steel Mill. And one place he pointed to was what he called where they took the bodies that were killed along the line, it was something that was not uncommon to happen working in these conditions. Even my stepfather lost 3 fingers from his job.

So for those of you thinking it's ok to say "FUCK YOU" to the unions well guess what - you're saying "FUCK YOU" to a man who helped build this nation and you're saying "FUCK YOU" to me - a person who isn't union but has many people she loves who are part of unions.

And btw, you're saying "FUCK YOU" to a large segment of people who helped get Obama elected.

I would expect better from progressive minded people.

BTW, when Bethlehem steel lost their pensions it was 2 democrats who worked their asses off to get coverage for the 'tweeners' - Retired steelworkers who were still too young to get Social Security. My parents are democrat but they'll vote for Ed Rendell or Representative Tim Holden for any election (and edit note - Arlen Specter too. He's republican but a moderate and one of the decent republicans out there). They don't forget who helped them and many who were way worse off than then. Ironically, when this happened there was also a plant down in Maryland and the governor was republican Bob Erhlich who did shit for his pensioners.

[Prophet 451]

112. It's not the workers I blame

I'm opposed to the bailout because, unless the economy turns around in the next few months (which seems unlikely), GM are just going to be back for more.

A better solution would be to take the $25 billion currently being talked about and use it to retrain and transition GM workers to some industry with a future (green technologies perhaps), the state picks up the tab on the pensions and GM folds.

Bail out the workers. The executives can go hang for all I care. It's their negligence which has led to this problem.

[yourguide]

113. I dont think anyone on this board is anti union.

I think everyone angry about the bailout is anti management. I challenge you to link me to 1 anti union post, one post blaming the unions for this?

If the big 3 were forced to create more fuel efficient vehicles, and get rid of executives like Bob Lutz of GMs who once called global warming a crock of shit, then I would be fine with a bail out.

The management at the big 3 have refused to make more fuel efficient vehicles, more competitive vehicles, those in management should be fired and a plan in place to bring the big 3 into the 21st century.

This failure is no fault of the workers, I dont believe anyone on this board suggested it was.

[sinkingfeeling]

114. The GOP is opposed to helping out the car companies in order to 'kill off' the unions once and for

all. I strongly support using my tax dollars to help that industry instead of the GOP's pets; Wall Street and 'financial' institutions!

[Butch350]

115. Let the auto makers file Bankruptcy...BAIL OUT THE WORKERS!!!

F**k the auto makers! Period! Some union workers are greedy, have you seen their f**king salaries. I belong
to a union - but the union sometimes demand too much! And screw your croak tomorrow argument - it's a f**king shallow
shallow ass argument. F**K the auto makes - bail out the wokers.

[madhawk]

116. forms

i was wondering..............what forms do i fill out to get my government bailout? i am hurting too.
hawk

[cooolandrew]

119. They'll learn with time it's better to give than to receive, especially karmically.

[kirby]

120. You are missing the point...

The point is that the Big Three did not innovate and do not have a R&D and production pipeline with fuel efficient cars. Lets not forget that every time you buy a gas guzzler, you are funding overseas petroleum dictators and fundamentalists. At a time where it is in the security of our country to reduce our dependence on oil (not to mention global climate change), the Big Three did not give a shit. Unlike the Japanese manufacturers who has a management and a worker mentality of long term sustained growth, the US manufacturers only think about the current quarters profit. So the US manufacturers kept pumping out SUV's and 'Light Trucks'. They spent considerable time lobbying to prevent increases in CAFE standards.

On the union worker side, they share blame too. They negotiated with management for salary and pensions that were not sustainable in the long term. All that has done is push the issue down the road. They got their increases 'on paper', but the pensions are even more underfunded. However the real issue is health care and health care needs to be removed from the employer. Too much negotiating power is expended just fighting for health care.

The major point that you miss is that Detroit is broken and has been broken. The production pipeline did not shift and the necessary investments were not made. Does anyone really believe that if we give Detroit $25 billion dollars that will do anything other than keep their doors open for a little while until they can come back as ask for more money? It takes a long time to design and produce a new car.

Before we bail them out, shouldn't more be done by the Big Three? Why do we need 3? Why dont the 3 merge before they ask for money? Combine the best of all the organizations and focus on a new direction.

Oh and the last time I looked, some of the so called 'American cars' I bought had parts made overseas and were assembled in Canada. When it came to wanting a hybrid, I was forced to a Toyota. I believe part of the union bargaining gave up any requirement that vehicles be assembled in the US.

[LSK]

174. Chevy Volt, Ford Escape Hybrid, Ford Focus, Jeep Patriot

You have no fucking clue what you are talking about.

[kirby]

180. Those are not all hybrids or high mpg vehicles...

Chevy Volt - not even available - who knows the quantity available when/if released. Right now it is just 'Green' PR.

Ford Escape Hybrid - they only produced 20,000 of those things in 2007. Let's see the plugin version of this. Decent vehicle, but not where Ford has focused its effort. I'd love to see more of these available. Its a bit of a small car for a family. Toyota Highlander Hybrid is better size wise. The Ford Escape Hybrid does not do so well in crash tests.

Ford Focus - when was this hybrid released? There is only a misleading Ford commercial touting the regular version is better than the Prius. But it fails to mention is it not as clean as the Prius.

Jeep Patriot - Not a hybrid. 26 mpg. Big whoop, ugly box.

To get people to buy your vehicle you need a track record, not PR. Many people avoid first and second year models until the kinks are worked out.

[Orsino]

121. Will you guarantee that Detroit won't end up right where it is now 6 months after a bail-out?

If not, then perhaps there's another way to spend that money--more directly on workers rather than on executives.

[Mark E. Smith]

122. Amen.

K&R.

[Deep13]

123. Well, you know who's really responsible, don't you?

It's the blood sucking mismanagement at the top.

[wtmusic]

126. No bailout = wishing thousands of union families end up destitute?

I'm hoping this isn't another one of the false dichotomy/straw man posts on this subject. The true anti-union posts on DU are usually disruptors and few and far between.

[Waiting For Everyman]

128. Totally agree. And how about the bloated upper-middle level

of management too? Not just in GM, but everywhere? There are too many of them, they're overpaid, and they do too little - putting the cost on all of us, especially in financial services... which btw, the carmakers are part of too.

I agree, the "screw everybody else" attitude, "anything for an advantage for me, justified or not" pov is appalling and needs a big adjustment. I pray every night that such people lose their jobs next. Some of them are, and they have only themselves to blame for it. (Not that they'd be that honest.)

[Blue Diadem]

130. Did the Big 3 workers care when their UAW brothers/sisters suffered? Did they care

when their UAW suppliers were forced to take concessions, pay-cuts, pay freezes, or lump sums instead of raises? As long as the Big 3 workers had their demands met, did they even think about the people below them? Did they care when a supplier shut its doors and those workers pensions went to PBGC? Did they care when those workers lost their medical benefits and were left to die? We were the canaries in the coal mine and we were ignored and forgotten.

I wouldn't wish what my family or the other forgotten and ignored families, UAW or not, have gone through on anyone. I've lost count of the number of my husband's former coworkers who have died. The last was his best friend, 53 yrs old. While that was an accident, he wouldn't have been where he was if the company hadn't shut its doors. He wouldn't have had to move to find work.

I'm for some type of bailout with strings attached. IMO, I doubt it will work, the rest of the economy is hurting. Wages have been stagnant for years, prices have increased and people were either forced to use credit to get by or used it frivolously. Jobs have been lost and people can not afford to buy cars. Again, that isn't anything new, it's just been ignored. Jobs can't be shipped overseas or moved to lower paying areas, while replacing those lost jobs with lower paying jobs, without our economy taking a hit. It's been happening for years and the chicken has finally come home to roost.

[LanternWaste]

131. You can of course point us to...

You can of course point us directly to a thread in which someone wished that greedy union families end up destitute, yes?

Or (and I find this more likely), looking for alternatives to a GM bail-out is actually not antithetical to supporting unions-- but it sounds so much more melodramatic when the two positions are joined at the hip.




From where I sit, all of the "anti-GM" posts and threads have been "anti-CEO & Upper Management of GM" posts and threads.

Really-- I'd be much more than interested in reading a post from high-count DU'er who emphatically states their anti-union position, rather than merely a person who simply disagrees with the bailout or owns a foreign car...

[L0oniX]

135. Yes this is a nation of predators who feed off of their fellow Americans.

Internal national imperialism for the rich and powerful. This is what American capitalism is really all about, ripping off everyone and anyone you can as long as it is legal. It's not what you do, it's what you get away with and they get away with a lot. It follows suit that if the government is corrupt that its people will also be corrupt. I never believed the psych of working for one company 20 years for a pension for retirement. I always thought it was a scam and I never fell for it. Now I see where those that did believe are being ripped off which doesn't make me happy but it does verify for me my foresight of the matter. Big money always corrupts ...ALWAYS!

[Hippo_Tron]

138. The union contracts have to be renegotiated

Not that I'm blaming the unions for getting a good deal for their workers. But the fact is that health care costs are the reason the big 3 aren't sustainable right now. Once Obama passes a national health care plan it will help.

[Romulox]

147. Here's the "renegotiation"--MEDICARE and the PBGC picks up the check. Happy?

You do realize that we have Universal Healthcare for seniors in this country, right? Retiree costs are the single biggest expense in play here, and these costs will be borne by the Federal Government if the Big 3 declare bankruptcy. :hi:

[sufrommich]

148. The Union contracts HAVE been renegotiated. Many times,

just because some on DU don't have a day-to-day knowledge of the workings of the American car companies,does not mean that the UAW has not given concessions up to this point. There is a 2 tier system in place which brings new workers in at a considerably lower rate of pay than those grandfathered in.Their insurance benefits,which used to be the gold standard for union workers,is being slowly whittled away.Why does everybody assume that the UAW hasn't already given up a considerable amount of costs and benefits?

[Daemonaquila]

172. Too much, actually.

It never ceases to amaze me how much modern union leadership gives up... and keeps giving up... and keeps giving up... I heard Ron Gettlefinger this morning on the radio. The wimp wouldn't even say that management made errors that got them into this hole. If union leadership isn't willing to challenge management on such basic points, what hope does the union rand and file have?

This is one reason that I want the government to do a bailout directed at the workers themselves, and at creating new jobs and industry, rather than bailing out the Big 3. No sooner will the check arrive than the Big 3 will start screwing the workers even more, now that they don't have to keep a good face on it, and the union leadership will just be talking about more and more concessions. Where does it end?

I have friends in the airline industry who, at this point, think they might have been better off if their airlines went under. There are flight attendants who are homeless, sleeping on chairs in airports. Mechanics are having problems paying for their tools, much less their living expenses, and are working crazy MANDO hours while fretting that they aren't being allowed to maintain plane safety. In many cases in regional airlines, the newer pilots are being paid less than folks flipping burgers.

I think that unions are getting backed into a corner out of fear - better to have a job you can't afford than no job at all. It's time for unions to band together and fight for the big picture, not just saving a job today, or there's little point.

[sufrommich]

139. Amen. Sad,isn't it? nt

[MessiahRp]

140. I'm for a bailout of the big three

if only because the amount of people put out of work by the closings of those companies would destroy the economy on a scale previously never seen. I feel for the families that are going through this.

But there should be some accountability. The Big Three continually ignored the market and kept producing bigger and bigger trucks and SUVs which cost way too much, were completely unneccesary and burned so much gas that when gas eventually went up past $4 a gallon, it was too pricey to drive them. Did they stop producing these completely ridiculous vehicles? No. In fact just about every car commercial you see in prime time is for some ridiculous pickup truck that is a shade smaller than a Semi.

They only get this bailout if they change to green technology. Period. That's the only way this should work. Make them have to adhere to 50 MPG standards, hybrid vehicles or better yet electric cars. Hell work in solar in some way.

This can all work along with Obama's energy plan and help ween us off of oil altogether and could be a blessing because we have this opportunity to force the Big Three's hand in a positive way.

With Uncle Sam's support they can keep their workers employed and afford to move in this new direction. The costs of newer cars will be able to be lower because we're helping to finance the costs of building these new cars and when these companies start to stand on their own again, they'll have had multiple opportunities to work with the new technology and make it cheaper and better. Just as computer companies do.

This is an opportunity, but there has to be strictly enforced restrictions where the bottom can drop out if certain criteria is not met and met swiftly.

I don't blame the regular auto workers, I blame the greedy CEOs and planners who refused to see the future because the glut of profit was too great at the time they needed to change the most.

Rp

[Marrah_G]

141. I don't understand it either.

[montanto]

151. AIG spent almost half a million

dollars sending execs on a hunting trip after getting bailout money.
The blood suckers at the top will always continue to suck blood
regardless of its source. GM said its future was rosy in September; now?
Now everyone is claiming to be a bank of some sort to tap into the
public trough.

How do you bail out the workers and not reward the corporation for its
failure?

I understand that not helping the workers is not an option, but how do
we keep the workers from being held hostage at taxpayers expense?
How do we prepare ourselves for this type of extortion now and in future?
It's easy enough to see why people don't want any part in it, after all,
"we don't negotiate with terrorists" and we know that they will hold us
hostage and terrorize us again if ever they can. We have to do it for the
workers this time, but there must be a miraculous paradigm shift to save
us from bankrupting ourselves in the service of giant corporations at
some future time.

[theboss]

155. How does keeping afloat a failed company help workers long-term?

In three years, The Big 3 are going to be in the exact same place and asking for a handout again.

How long do we keep them on the respirator?

[DemReadingDU]

162. delete

wrong place

[LSK]

173. do you know the winning lottery numbers too while you are at it???

I mean if you can see the future, help me out please.

[Romulox]

179. Why not ask that question re: AIG??? nt

[theboss]

188. I did. I do.

So, there you go.

[butterfly77]

169. I don't know why you are surprised...

haven't you been watching the poor for years, haven't you been watching all of the parking lots filled with the homeless.These people don't give a damn! Until they begin seeing it heading their way...

[LSK]

171. this is too old to Rec, but allow me to kick it

[WillyT]

181. Me Too !!!

:kick:

:mad:

[shaniqua6392]

183. I wish everyone would wake up!!

This is the Repukes way of killing our unions. They have been trying to do this for years. I have been sickened seeing some of the posts on DU that are just telling us to let the Big 3 die. Unbelievable. It is not the union blue collar workers who are making tons of money. It is the executives and many of the white collar workers that have sucked these companies dry. I have many auto workers among my family and friends. They have made so many concessions. They have been laid off constantly. The retired ones have seen their benefits decrease every year. It is disgusting that so many would watch families suffer and lose their homes and not be able to feed their children. It will cost far more to give out all of the unemployment benefits, food stamps, and Medicaid to them than it would be to LOAN them $25 Billion. People did not put up this much fuss when they passed the $700 Billion bailout to the financial industry.

[DainBramaged]

186. You can't get through to people whose jobs at Starbucks are secure

[BeatleBoot]

189. Right On!

I'm not a union member.

But my Dad is a retired union member and I live in Detroit.

My Dad's sweat put bread on our table growing up and he couldn't have done what he did with his kids without the union.

Amen to your post!

[shaniqua6392]

196. I guess they don't mind making $7.00 an hour with no benefits.

They don't realize that we will all end up in the service sector making very little money. This is what has been happening all over the country. Now the government is wondering why no one is spending any money. We have grown men with two or three of these crappy jobs trying to support a family. We need a manufacturing base in this country. We need to bolster the auto companies and support our unions. I still don't understand how some Democrats can side with the Republicans who are trying to kill our unions, which will kill all workers rights in this country.

[NashVegas]

190. I Didn't Support the Wall Street Bailout

And I can't support a Detroit infusion without a plan on the automakers' parts, to turn their businesses around.

I know it really and truly sucks, what is happening right now. I wish you all the best luck for you and your family to come through okay. I'm sure you and all your compadrés do wonderful work, but your executives ... you all should be out in the streets demanding their heads on a platter for mismanagement.

[BeatleBoot]

192. You're right about one thing

We'll be out on the street.

Guaranteed.

And even though I got out of the auto industry after my company went bankrupt, the ripple effect will be devastating.

The economy lost 1.2 million jobs in 2008.

How about almost tripling that figure within the first 3 months of a Big 3 Bankruptcy?

And how about doubling that within the next 12 months?

Obama's talk of FDR isn't too far off.

Just my 3 cents.

And here's Governor Jennifer Granholm (D) discussing the ripple effect

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P8gLwxJorlg

[Taverner]

199. I agree - but it's not going to happen so we should make the best out of this

Demand we (the taxpayers) get stock or controlling interest or something....

And the Unions have BENT OVER BACKWARDS to keep GM from going out of business. They conceded and conceded and conceded. This has been going on since the 80's.

[Fire1]

202. I'm UNION!!!

[GrantDem]

214. I'm UNION!!!