School Pressured to Fire Lunch Lady, Former Porn Star

[underpants]

An elementary school cafeteria worker and playground monitor, who had an extensive career in the adult entertainment industry, is becoming a New Jersey school district's legal nightmare.

Some parents in Vineland, N.J., as well as the board of education president, want Louisa C. Tuck fired, but district officials were advised by their lawyers and those from the New Jersey School Board Association they have no legal grounds to terminate the 32-year-old from her $5,772-a-year part-time job as an aide in the lunchroom and playground, The Daily Journal reported.

"We have no real legal stance or legal right to do anything for two reasons — one, it's not illegal, and two, it's not on school time," Superintendent Charles Ottinger told the newspaper.

Tuck, who went by the name of Crystal Gunns when she starred in adult movies, performances and photos, told the newspaper it's been five years since she was involved in the adult entertainment industry. She now also works with children at the local YMCA.

"If this is about morality, our president-elect has admitted to doing crack, and he's our president. Does that make him a bad person?" Tuck said, referring to one of Barack Obama's books, in which he admits trying cocaine. "Bill Clinton smoked pot. Does that make him a bad person?"

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,456345,00.html

[marmar]

1. The Puritanical silliness that is so pervasive in this country boggles the mind.....

.... Netherlands or bust.

[foxfeet]

5. Is she doing things with the "mystery meat?"

No? Then what the hell is the problem?

EDIT: Intended to post as response to OP. My bad. Sorry!

[Book Lover]

2. from another article

Shawn Rivers of Vineland has two children in the preschool program at the YMCA. She considers herself a close friend of Tuck's and said she "would trust her with my children at any time."

"She has nothing but love and compassion with all kids," Rivers said.

She called Tuck "an excellent role model with good values," adding she is appalled Tuck's background would make news.

"There's never been a problem with her reputation or conduct," Rivers said. "And I just want everyone to know that."

http://www.thedailyjournal.com/article/20081121/NEWS01/811210318&referrer=FRONTPAGECAROUSEL

[tularetom]

3. Think back to the school cafeteria ladies of your childhood

Then try to imagine one of them being in a porn movie.

I just did. Now I can see it every time I close my eyes.

And it's making me :puke:

[undeterred]

15. Didn't you see "Cafeteria Ladies Gone Wild"?

:hi:

[8 track mind]

188. no, but i did see "Hot Babes in Hair-nets" and "Salad Bar Runaways"

sorry couldn't resist!

:rofl:

[geomon666]

147. Yes but in this case, she was a pornstar before she became a lunch lady.

....I have this sudden urge for some melons.

[Horse with no Name]

150. I got a vision

of an octogenarian in a hairnut throwing watery mashed potatoes on my plate and yelling for me to quit slowing the line down.

[yellowcanine]

192. Thanks a lot. Terrible mind pictures are flashing by.

[flvegan]

4. Google image search was disappointing.

However, if they fire her, I hope she sues.

[burythehatchet]

20. Crystal Gunns

[flvegan]

39. Definition of "too much of a good thing"

:rofl:

[burythehatchet]

166. I now maintain a zero tolerance policy. I will not engage in

the fondling of any breast that has been augmented. Those unnatural stretch marks of the sides of the breasts creep me out.

[anigbrowl]

51. Ack

But I think she should keep her job, and the parents should STFU.

[StreetKnowledge]

72. Good Lord......

......how does one get a chest like that? That looks like somebody put skin over a couple of massive water balloons.

[undeterred]

106. I wonder if it costs more to have huge implants

than small ones. They have to be implants, because any woman who grew up with those would have had breast reduction surgery instead. It looks spectacularly uncomfortable.

[PatGund]

107. *Laugh* Yep!

You answered your own question. :-)

[arcadian]

101. She obviously missed this sign, explains everything.

[carlyhippy]

132. Holy Cow! That 2nd pic she looks crosseyed and hair mussed

I do not know how in the world she functions with those in the way. She should be able to stay in her current job, if she is doing a good job what is the problem....

[geomon666]

148. If she had been serving my lunch wearing that back in the day.

I would've eaten every single disgusting crumb.

[asteroid2003QQ47]

205. What a waste of talent!

In the interest of safety she'd be the perfect crossing guard.
Come to think of it, as a math teacher she would have inspired my interest
in numbers better than any teacher I ever had!
Think about it.

[Fleshdancer]

6. ridiculous

I hope she keeps her job just to annoy the hell out of the parents who started this whole mess in the first place.

[DJ13]

7. The "small" one in the middle is her

[underpants]

8. Thank for the research

http://www.collegeotr.com/college_otr/pornstar_crystal_gunns_outed_while_working_at_elementary_school_15277

[rasputin5]

9. I see two in the middle.

:D

[underpants]

11. Welcome to DU

:hi:

[marmar]

10. If I had to bet money, I'd say there's been some surgical enhancement going on....

:think:

[Fleshdancer]

13. why why WHY do people do that to themselves?

my back hurts just looking at that picture.

[underpants]

14. Money

Gets the paying customers in the door

I guess

[Fleshdancer]

24. which will need to be spent on custom made clothing

and pain killers for their poor backs.

[Odin2005]

27. This guy is positively grossed out by such grotesquely huge boobs.

:puke:

[StreetKnowledge]

73. You're not alone

This guy is grossed out, too.

[Generic Brad]

103. That's one jaded school cafeteria then

[seabeyond]

199. she is workin as a cafteria gal. wtf. money? geez. n/t

[Sarah Ibarruri]

32. Because some women are still desperate for male attention, and/or they think the only job they can

get is one in which they degrade themselves sexually?

[lildreamer316]

138. Oh boy. Here we go.

I am an adult entertainer by profession (dancing). I am happily married to a man I love; and do not cheat. I love my job.
Nice way to generalize, there.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

159. It takes all types. Some people like to have the crap beaten out of them.

Degenerate behavior and degrading behavior is that, regardless of whether the person wants it, loves, it, likes it, or rejects it.

[Dogtown]

191. That's very ugly and judgmental, Sarah Ibarruri

Have you done field research within the adult entertainment "sub-culture" to justify that sanctimonious twaddle?

I find your prejudice to be degenerate and degrading behavior. Bigots of all stripes are most unpleasant.

[Dogtown]

193. lildreamer316, I'm dismayed by the blatant bigotry

displayed by Sarah Ibarruri. She must have a personal issue that prompted her vicious attack. As a feminist, I have met some zealots within the movement who were clearly acting out a personal injury by adopting disciple-hood and decrying anything not text-book Gaiaesque.

[lildreamer316]

197. Thank you

for your words...

Trying not to get into the whole thing here, but I'd like to say that of course, I understand the problem that many have with the industry I have chosen to be associated with. My own mother pretty much disowned me over my choice; and I understand that she had no frame of reference to understand where I was finding the justification and joy in my work. But I find it part of the enjoyment of my job to work from the inside out to combat many of the issues that this industry has.

It's funny - the world of stripping; the club environment itself - is often a microcosm of our larger culture. It's really a fascinating study. And yes, I can say that I find my job empowering. I don't really feel it's a power trip, I just see it as very freeing.

Well anyway...same arguments, different day, eh? LOL.

[AspenRose]

126. You took the words right out of my keyboard

*nodding* Ai yi yi

[undeterred]

16. I think those would be hazardous in a high school cafeteria.

And those teenage hormones...

[lildreamer316]

139. I can almost guarantee she had them removed, in case you were wondering. n/t

[GoesTo11]

21. Is that natural?

I'll bet at least one of these women had plastic surgery. Not that there's anything wrong with that.

[MadMaddie]

33. at least one?

ha...ha...ha..I would say at least 6 boobies in that picture have been enhanced...

[LisaL]

153. Are you for real?

[crispini]

36. Good gad.

You know, there's big-breasted, and then there's pointless. :wow:

[liberalhistorian]

54. Good Lord! And I thought

my natural 44DD was hard to deal with, yikes!

[FloridaJudy]

131. Amen!

It makes my back and shoulders hurt just to look at that picture!

Why anyone would voluntarily do that to herself is beyond me.

[yardwork]

179. Help me understand. How...where....why....?????

[rocktivity]

180. No wonder she can't be fired

she probably qualifies for the Americans With Disabilities Act.

:eyes:
rocknation

[Mad_Dem_X]

183. Holy sh*t!

:puke:

[Sarah Ibarruri]

12. I hate puritannical shit, but honestly why must women constantly be degrading themselves w/this bs?

I think it's sickening that women have to resort to degrading themselves to put food on the frikkin' table. It'll be a nice day when no woman has to do that shit, and I include prostitution in that.

[underpants]

19. Couldn't this be a cautionary tale to the kids

Look I get it that some people only hear "porn star" and "School cafeteria" and get all upset (that seems to be the point of this Fox News story)

but

Isn't this a way to show at least the girls what the end of being a porn "Star" looks like. She may very well just be working while the kids are in daycare or at school to supplement her family income (as most such part timers do) but when the kids get over the giggles she can tell them what all that fame and fortune ;-) got her.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

25. You're right. This is definitely a cautionary tale! nt

[Enrique]

151. not with elementary school kids, imo

at that age, they generally respect adults in any occupation.

By high school, however, they would perceive becoming a lunch lady as a sort of failure, or a fate to be avoided.

[Odin2005]

29. Anti-porn nuts have no right to complain about puritanical shit. n/t

[Sarah Ibarruri]

30. Oh great. Now we have someone who thinks women's rights to be degraded should be upheld.

Do you also defend the right of women to protect those who abuse them?

[Odin2005]

35. Women getting paid to have nude pics taken of them violates their rights?

RIIIIGHT... :eyes:

[Sarah Ibarruri]

37. Look, it's none of my business what you do when you're not studying....

But it is my damned business to speak up when I think it's degrading to people of MY gender (who are obviously not YOUR gender) when some women are lowering themselves to the level of a rubber vagina. Not dignified, not funny, not a career, and not anything that any little girl should have to look forward to in her future.




:spank:

[Odin2005]

42. Why do you think you have a right to impose your value judgments on other people's career choices?

Your attitudes are nothing more then the left-wing, secularized version of the Protestant-Calvinist-Puritan anti-sex mindset so commonly attacked when they come out of the mouths of the Right.

This comment...

"Not dignified, not funny, not a career, and not anything that any little girl should have to look forward to in her future."

...is a perfect example of this anti-sex mindset

[Sarah Ibarruri]

43. For the same reason you're imposing yours on me. nt

[anigbrowl]

172. Bullshit. How are you imposed on in any way?

I don't see anyone dismissing your right to an opinion because you're a woman, or critiquing your attractiveness or social value based on your decision to express an opinion. You're not being imposed on at all, just disagreed with.

[liberalhistorian]

57. Exactly! Believe it or not, there are plenty of women

who purposely choose that kind of career and some of them actually enjoy it. Not every woman considers that to be degrading and it's no one's business what their personal preferences and choices are. It sure wouldn't be my choice at all, but that doesn't mean that I have the right to decide that for other women.

[Odin2005]

61. Yep. IMO the assumptions the anti-porn people base their arguments on are themselves misogynistic.

They are based on negitive conceptions of the nude female form that pervade the Abrahamic religions.

[lildreamer316]

142. THANK you. n/t

[Touchdown]

175. Over 170 posts and not one Sloppy Joe joke!

I am so disappointed!:cry:

[deaniac21]

189. You are right. The pornography industry is very uplifting for

women. Low decease rates, High self esteem, very low drug/alcohol addiction problems, low suicide rates. It's really a shame that all women can't be a part of this enlightenment for at least part of their young lives. It would also keep them away from pursuits where they my be exploited! The Industry does so much good for so many people.

[anigbrowl]

53. Didn't realize you were the spokesperson for the whole gender

Somehow I suspect the adult toy industry ships a lot more dildos than rubber vaginas. I feel so used now.

[StreetKnowledge]

74. I agree in principle

But if people WANT to do that, why would we stop them?

[Sarah Ibarruri]

168. For the same reason laws have been passed down here where I live....

...which ignore an abused wife when she says, "I fell down the stairs, my husband did not beat me up." The laws bypass the woman, pick up the husband, throw some handcuffs on him and are some people have ZERO self-confidence and are in the middle of a sequence of degradation. Some people don't know anything BUT degradation. Others are masochists because it's all they've ever known.

[Seldona]

52. When did gender become the issue?

Would a male porn star be welcomed to work with children do you think? Seriously?

[Odin2005]

75. Because Westerm society has issues with the nude female form bcause of Christianity.

Inherently misogynistic issues, which is why it disgusts me that so called "feminists" use such arguments against porn, they are no different then Ashcroft covering nude female statues.

[girl gone mad]

125. It's a shitty industry..

that degrades women and often demeans their true sexual nature. There's really no getting around that.

Not that I think it should be illegal.

[lildreamer316]

141. I have never felt degraded by the industry I CHOSE to be in.

I've been an adult entertainer (dancing) since 1994. I have felt MORE degraded at the (several) 9 to 5 jobs that I worked than I ever have at my CHOSEN profession.

People have no idea who many of us really are; and what we really do. And to be honest, we keep it that way. I guess we don't share where we have found our bliss and freedom; we must be selfish. There is so much more to what we do than many people will ever be able to recognize.

But anyway. I've defended this profession to death here, and people still want to DEGRADE my right to have it.

[GoneOffShore]

157. You'll get no response

Because you and the other people in your industry who CHOOSE to do what you do and look at it as a job, don't exist in some peoples universe.

You can't possibly exist because your world view doesn't conform with theirs.

[lildreamer316]

181. Truer words..

and all that. LOL.

[deaniac21]

190. I guess denial really is a river in Egypt. Do you have a bring

your kid to work for a week program there?

[EOTE]

195. Wow. Pathetic AND mean.

Talk about denial, you're so set in your own views that you can't possibly imagine someone being happy in a job that you so cruelly malign. So, you're intent on making these jobs illegal, but since you aren't having much luck with that, you insult the people for having the jobs that they do. Then, when you try to justify you imposing your will upon others, you say "Look, no one actually WANTS to work at these jobs, just look at all the cruel assholes who'd go around insulting them for having a job like that." Of course, circular logic probably isn't in your vocabulary. You wouldn't know free will if it bit you in the ass.

[deaniac21]

198. I know what I see in the porn industry and it isn't good. I suppose

you'd love to see your kids living the life? I will admit the women are truely "uplifted" in these works of art. The gangbang movies give me a feeling as if I'd just been to an uplifting Obama rally! I don't recall imposing anything. Please feel free to aquire some reading comprehension skills.

[LanternWaste]

185. People have the right to complain about anything we want...

People have the right to complain about anything we want... regardless of petulant, ineffectual, false dichotomies presented.

[cherokeeprogressive]

31. Voice that same opinion on a thread whose topic is Larry Flynt and his rumored outing of a rethug

and you'll get shouted down. I called him a misogynistic pig and was trashed for not defending a Good Dem who was only selling magazines afterall. Besides, he hates rethugs as much as we do... he's GOT to be a good guy!

I wish women didn't feel they had to resort to such demeaning ways to put a roof over their head and food in their fridge. Porn and prostitution, and those who purvey it have many defenders on this board though.

That said, I don't think the woman should be fired for working in the industry, but she should be ridiculed for doing that ungodly thing to her body.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

34. Nobody has all good qualities or all bad qualities. I'm sure Flynt has good qualities...

we all do. But I think he's a revolting PIG because the line of work he got in to get rich, involved humiliating women.

And I'm with you 100% that women should not have to resort to such humiliation to feed themselves and their children.

I agree she should not be fired. In fact, I hope she sues, and gets those chemical balloons removed from her chest. The degree of unhealth that she will be facing one day isn't even funny.

[cherokeeprogressive]

40. We all might have redeeming qualities, but in Flynt's case I think most people got it wrong.

He's seen as a "champion of first amendment rights". Actually, the only rights Flynt championed were his rights to make money on the backs of women, unless he was worried that the gubmint might keep me from masturbating to the rawest porn that could be sold in public. He pushed the envelope knowing it would make his name a household word, and his rag number one on the mag racks. Any man who makes his living exploiting women is less than a man in my book.

He published nude pics of Jackie Kennedy in 71, molested his daughter, and his fourth wife Althea "passed out from an overdose and drowned in the bathtub. Flynt, however, states that by that point she was in the final stages of AIDS and would have died within a year, regardless". Any rethug whose wife dies from a bathtub overdose would have his bones picked clean on this board. Any rethug found to be molesting his daughter would be torn limb from limb here. It's okay for Larry though, he hates rethugs. He's cool.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

45. I agree. The guy is piggish. I'm glad he exposed these people, but he's no.

citizen. He's just a disgusting individual.

[msanthrope]

56. Retract the child molestation charge--it's slanderous and unproven.

It's comes from his fundie freak-job daughter who wrote a memoir that's right up there with "Michelle Remembers".

She also accuses him of bestiality/satanism--a scenario straight out of every single daycare molestation scare case.

[cherokeeprogressive]

68. She was a freak job because of what she was exposed to as a child. The fundie thing doesn't

resonate with me. I give the accuser the benefit of the doubt in instances of accusations like molestation. It's either that or risk others being abused and not coming forward for fear of this kind of ridicule.

Don't discount her because you hate religious people (as evidenced by your description of her as a "fundie freak-job). As far as the bestiality thing goes, have you ever read "Ordeal", by Linda Lovelace? Bestiality took place at Hugh Hefner's mansion in the 80's. I have no reason to believe that it didn't take place at the Flynt mansion as well.

[msanthrope]

203. I'm sorry, which Linda Lovelace autobiography are you

referring to?

The two where she had no problem with porn???

Or the two where she did?

Ms. Boreman tended to write and then rewrite her life story, depending on the crowd and the book deal--and ended up as yet another fundamentalist Christian who got on the Christian gravy-train...when she didn't make her money doing porn, she made her money talking about doing porn to prurient 'Christians.'

Bestiality took place at the Playboy Mansion in the 80s???? Now just how gullible are you???? Bestiality was the charge du jour during the McMartin scandal--in the 80s....all part of SRA, or Satanic Ritual Abuse.....

How convenient that (some of) Lovelace's memoirs of that time include the same bestiality/satanist crap....

As for Tonya Flynt-Vega, I don't give the benefit of the doubt to accusers who present themselves to the media, complete with book deals, rehashing the usual Christian-fabricated SRA crap....

[StreetKnowledge]

76. I'll tell you what

Larry Flynt is the biggest shitbag walking the planet. I agree about first amendment rights, but he is an individual who the world would be better off without. And I'll tell you what, if anybody did some of those things to my daughter will worry about me long before the police. I hope he just fades away - you know that he does this shit to get attention.

[SidDithers]

47. Degrading themselves by working as a playground monitor?...

'cause she clearly says she left the adult entertainment industry 5 years ago.

Sid

[Sarah Ibarruri]

50. Degradation is a career that stays on your resume forever - sex has a way of doing that nt

[anigbrowl]

55. Uh, right

:crazy:

Lemme guess, it stains your soul or something.

[SidDithers]

58. Doncha know, sex is bad...

it stays with you forever...:eyes:

Sid

[Sarah Ibarruri]

66. Sex isn't bad. Degradation is bad. Evidently you see no difference between the two nt

[mondo joe]

130. It's up to the individual to decide if he or she is degraded. NT

[MadrasT]

152. Exactly n/t

[liberalhistorian]

60. Sounds a bit like the Andrea Dworkin

paranoid absolutist bullshit, like in her book "Intercourse" where she pretty much describes ALL sex, and I mean ALL sex as an "invasion of a woman's body." There was no recognition that maybe, just maybe, we gals might actually enjoy sex and engage in it willingly.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

64. Andrea Dworkin thinks porn stars are great - what are you talking about?

She drools over such women.

[readmoreoften]

83. What? No she didn't.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

85. Oh yes she did. When I get a chance I'll locate her drivel and post the link....

Andrea Dworkin is a frikkin' whacko.

[anigbrowl]

90. This should be interesting...

[Sarah Ibarruri]

94. It is. The woman is either an opportunist, writing shocking things for $, or she's

not working with a full deck.

[anigbrowl]

98. Are you sure know who you're talking about?

Dworkin died in 2005. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andrea_Dworkin

I fail to see how you could possibly think she was an advocate of porn, and am pretty sure you have mixed her up with someone else - though I am curious to know who are referring to.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

109. No, I confused her with someone else. What's the name of that lesbian that writes for either

huffington or salon? I had her confused with her. Not familiar with Andrea Dworkin, but I'll tell you what, I plan to read her stuff now.

[anigbrowl]

117. Camille Paglia, maybe?

I don't read either website all that regularly, and Don't pay much attention to celebrity columnists...in fact I wish people would just write anonymously or under pseudonyms. Paglia seems a likely candidate since she's known for both opportunism and shock value. I don't know if she's gay or not but I know she's no particular fan of Dworkin et al.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

118. Yep - she loves women who degrade themselves

I can understand her hating Dworkin. Paglia is like a beer-drinking alcoholic redneck who spends all his money on strip joints and beer and calls women degrading names.

[anigbrowl]

127. Really? I suppose a cite would be too much to ask for

I'm unclear whether you believe that Camille Paglia finds female degradation erotic, or whether you think that her idea of female sexual expression is degrading. I'm not a particular fan, but I find her stuff interesting even though I frequently don't agree with it. I've always thought she was aggressively individualistic, which seems like a good thing to me.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

133. If I get a chance I will. I'm on here studying, and when studying gets to be too much, I check DU..

I'm writing myself a note...

[liberalhistorian]

161. I'm sorry, but since you claim not

to be familiar with Andrea Dworkin you really have no claim to say things like "I ca understand her hating Dworkin." Dworkin was a man-hating wacko who considered ALL heterosexual sex to be an "invasion of the woman's body", since, in her mind, there was no such thing as women willingly consenting to sex. Even if a woman believes she was consenting, she really wasn't, 'cause ALL men MADE her consent. And there was no such thing as women enjoying sex in her world. She was the left's version of a fundie nutjob.

Now, I do agree with you on Paglia. I remember when she wrote that a woman who's been raped must "look inside herself" and "change herself so that she will never make that mistake again." HUH? That's way beyond a WTF.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

162. You're right. I'd confused her with Paglia. However, I read 1 essay of Dworkin

yesterday. I found that she was PASSIONATE about women not degrading themselves, and frankly, she sounds quite sane to me, just frikkin angry. I think women internalized inferiority for so long that many of them don't even see reality, tho I must say things are a tiny bit improved. However, if you look at murder and crime stats by gender, you'll see how unkosher things still are.

And yes, Paglia is a sociopathic @$$hole.

[readmoreoften]

102. Great for stabbing to death with toothpicks?

I had the misfortune of having to read her "oeuvre" for a portion of my doctoral research. I won't disagree about her being a wacko. Total lunatic.

[anigbrowl]

105. Elucidate, please.

[readmoreoften]

119. The poster thought Dworkin said porn stars are great.

My question was "great for stabbing to death with toothpicks?" But, seriously, Dworkin would've probably preferred knives or meat grinders.

[anigbrowl]

121. Ah, that makes more sense...

...I was starting to wonder if Dworkin was an advocate for some unusual fetish I hadn't heard about.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

113. No actually, I had confused her with someone else.

I wasn't familiar with Andrea Dworkin till just now when I looked up her works and read one of her small essays.

[anigbrowl]

78. Are you sure you're not mixing her up with Katherine McKinnon?

The 'all sex is rape' lady, from Canada? I admit it's so long since I read either of them that I can't remember clearly. If she/they/whoever wants to say it's invasive, I'm gonna complain about the theft of my precious bodily fluids :evilgrin:

[readmoreoften]

86. Intercourse is Dworkin.

McKinnon was less polemic in her tone but same sentiment.

[anigbrowl]

96. Now that I think the actual quote is a misattrubution

But in any case, I have no truck with their viewpoint.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

62. No, not because it stains your soul, but because it's DEGRADING - do you want your daughter to be a

prostitute or porn star?

[liberalhistorian]

67. No, I sure wouldn't, nor would I

ever want to be one myself. But that doesn't mean that there aren't women who willingly choose such "careers." If they knowingly and willingly choose it when it's not their only survival option, then I have no right whatsoever to stick my nose or judgments in it. Not every woman would consider it to be degrading. We may not understand that ourselves, but we can't paint it all with the same brush that we would use.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

82. Oh I agree. I can't think of any parent that wants their daughter to be a prostitute or porn star..

But I also can't think of anyone who would want to be degraded unless she's disturbed, has incredibly low self-esteem, has been abused (aren't there studies showing this, by the way?), or are so unable to make a living that they resort to this. It's always a horrible reason why women go into this. The industry also has an excessive number of little girls working in it, something which I think is overlooked because the industry is so lucrative.

[anigbrowl]

77. YOU think it's degrading. Not everyone shares your opinion about this.

I don't think it's any more degrading that a career in sales/marketing or many, many other commercial pursuits. So porn consists mainly of being admired for your body, I don't see anything much wrong with that. I respect that you would feel degraded by such activity, so don't do it. I also respect that sometimes women get forced or tricked into such, and that's degrading too - not because it's porn, but because it's not a matter of free choice. Getting tricked into some gig as a domestic servant and then not being able to get out of it is equally degrading in my eyes.

But when it comes to making a free choice to work in the adult industry (as is the case in many countries), what other people choose is not your problem.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

81. You hope your daughter to be a prostitute or a porn star? When you answer that question,

we'll discuss this.

[anigbrowl]

87. Nice way to try putting words in my mouth. I don't hope for it, but it's acceptable.

I don't hope my daughter(s) will go into porn or prostitution, but don't particularly fear it either. I wouldn't respect them any the less if they chose to make such a choice, just worry about the occupational hazards (which applies to a lot of jobs). It's a kind of performance work and I don't think any less of someone who freely chooses to do it.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

93. ACCEPTABLE? nt

[anigbrowl]

100. Yes, I gave you a straight answer, so now keep your side of the bargain and let's talk

Posting in CAPS and feigning horror doesn't impress me. If my adult daughter makes an adult decision to work as an erotic performer of some sort for a while, then I would entirely respect that. I don't feel it reduces their value as an individual in the slightest. Do you?

[Sarah Ibarruri]

110. Problem is, I am shocked. I'm used to parents loving their daughters nt

[anigbrowl]

115. Bullshit. You just can't deal with your bluff being called.

You asked a question which most people would be unwilling to answer in the affirmative because they don't want to be ostracized. First you cap ACCEPTABLE? as if I was proposing something illegal. Now you're trying to infer that I don't love my offspring because I say I would respect such a choice if they made it.

You don't address my argument, offer any counter-arguments, or even solicit information in order to better understand it: you just infer that my outlook is unacceptable and loveless - but you won't say so directly, you just adopt a pose to that effect. I think that's a pretty clumsy form of emotional maipulation, something I have the misfortune to know a great deal about.

Now instead, why don't you grow a spine, put aside these silly histrionics, and tell me why my (adult) offspring should not be allowed to make such a choice on even a temporary basis? The adult industry can be a risky occupation and is certainly not a choice to be made lightly, but you're arguing that no matter how careful and self-possessed the particiaptnt, it's fundamentally degrading and I strongly disagree.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

116. My bluff! Don't make me laugh.

You actually went as far as saying you'd be okay with a daughter of yours being a prostitute or porn star only to make a point. That's really sinking low. I don't believe you. You just hate to lose, don't you? Fact is, those careers are degradation, and you know it as well as anyone else.

[anigbrowl]

120. Ah, so now you're calling me a liar. Apparently, it's not possible for me to hold my opinion.

You know nothing about me or my sexuality, and I just have a different set of sexual mores from you. Although I've never made a profession out of being a sex worker, I have taken part in pornography and a variety of sexual activity that most people would consider 'alternative', and don't have much time for conventional views of gender roles. I don't feel degraded by any of my past activities (even ones I turned out not to enjoy) because I made those decisions freely and own the responsibility for them. Similarly I respect other people's decisions about what they do with their sexuality even if I don't always understand them or wouldn't want to do those things myself, and that includes performing for commercial gain.

With reference to the original story, I think it's pathetic for someone to have plastic surgery in order to increase their commercial prospects, but that's because I'm hostile to the idea of modifying my own body in any way. Thus, I don't 'get' why my partner has several tattoos but that's her decision and form of self-expression so it's not really up to me. You obviously don't get why people have different standards for what's acceptable sexual activity, but you seem quite comfortable going around saying they've degraded themselves by engaging in it. I think that's something people can only decide for themselves and not on behalf of other people.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

135. Yeah that's exactly right. I'm calling you a liar for your own good

I'd hate for anyone to think you really meant it when you said you'd be okay if your daughter were selling her body to johns or being having a camera up her parts as she gets banged by all kinds of males who think she's a sick freak.

[anigbrowl]

137. Well, I do mean it

Frankly your remarks sound to me as objectifying of men as you (presumably) think pornography is objectifying of women. Without giving a green light to any and all pornography, I think the blanket dismissal of it nonsensical and a denial of individual self-expression. Arguably commercialization of any human activity 'degrades' it compared to free exchange by enthusiasts (whether it's sport, auto repair or even critical theory), but I dispute the idea that sexuality is an unacceptable medium for commercial exchange.

As I said, I don't feel degraded by my past sexual activity, even though some would find it objectionable and say that I should feel degraded by it. Since I reserve those decisions about myself to myself, I don't see how I could assert that jurisdiction over someone else. I don't think exhibitionism (of either gender) is fundamentally degrading as you suggest. In some contexts, I even find it admirable.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

158. I don't care what your opinion is. Degradation is degradation and I'm not going to change that term

simply because you wish I would.

[mondo joe]

165. Fortunately, you have little say over other people's lives, and we mostly still get to decide for

ourselves whether we are degraded or not.

[anigbrowl]

169. So you have no argument, you're just pounding the ulpit. Typically authoritarian.

I'm afraid I find your assertions about certain activities being fundamentally degrading little different from the mentality that justifies honor killings, burqas, etc. They also claim to be protecting women and so forth, but frankly I don't trust anyone who says that people have to be protected from making their own decisions about themselves. To me your obsession with declaring things to be degrading suggests some sort of fascination with grading people, which you can keep, thank you.

[Evoman]

196. You owned her soooo bad.

Even if I was on her side, I would have to give you this one.

[Gwendolyn]

204. In some ways it is degrading, although perhaps not in the way you mean.

People have a perfect right to do whatever they like with their bodies, and many people thoroughly enjoy taking their clothes off and performing for the camera. The degradation aspect enters into the picture, when you realize that what we see, the ever more bizarre and extreme acts women (and men) perform, are basically decided by businessmen whose fortunes rest on being competitive in a market saturated with porn. Think back to what porn movies were back in the 80's as opposed to today. Peoples' sexuality as a whole is guided by profit, and yeah, that's a little degrading from a philosophical perspective.

[riqster]

202. Back in my working musician days, I backed a lot of strippers

Some were hookers on the side, many were single mothers who needed to make a larger amount of money per hour so as to have more time with their kids in the daytime, a few were kids looking for kicks, etc. A couple were porn actresses. ALL of them relished the power they had over the drooling, drunken fools who lusted for them as they went through their routines.

I stood on stage watching my fellow males, and feeling ashamed to share the same x/y chromosomal alignment with those jackasses. Granted, I got to see the 'backstage' machinery behind the illusion of lust that was used to siphon cash from men's wallets, and since then I haven't bothered with porn, strippers, etc. (Perhaps I am being excessively harsh on the fellas, since they haven't gotten to see how they're being played.)

I will not say that none of the women were into self-degradation, but I will say that not all of them were. In fact, the majority were making a conscious choice to earn a good-sized (and at least partly undeclared) income while controlling a roomful of idiotic men. Good on them, I say.

Finally: to make a conscious choice to gyrate one's pelvis is NOTHING like being a vitim of domestic abuse. To concatenate the powerful with the powerless is nonsensical.

[lildreamer316]

144. THANK YOU. This is it in a nutshell.

"I don't feel degraded by any of my past activities (even ones I turned out not to enjoy) because I made those decisions freely and own the responsibility for them. Similarly I respect other people's decisions about what they do with their sexuality even if I don't always understand them or wouldn't want to do those things myself, and that includes performing for commercial gain."

You said it better than I could have at the moment. Thank you for your clarity.

[anigbrowl]

170. Thanks, I thought I'd wandered into some parallel anti-liberal universe tehre for a bit.

[mondo joe]

186. There are authoritarian liberals. You've encountered one here.

It's a sad thing.

[readmoreoften]

91. Sounds like you're one of those people who would try to get me fired.

Despite the fact that I have 3 graduate degrees and I'm a professor, I don't even volunteer at my local struggling high school or community center because small-minded bigots would railroad me for having been a dominatrix. Am I 'scarred'? Absolutely no. But people who insist that it should stay on my 'resume' even though I have a nice list of teaching positions and publications under my belt completely keep me from giving back because, frankly, as an LGBT person I don't need any more bullshit than is already on my plate.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

95. Well, I nkow little about being a dominatrix. Does it involve having sex?

As for getting you fired, where the hell did I say that in any of my posts?

[readmoreoften]

99. It blames her and not those who condemn her. Would someone be fired for watching porn at home?

They're just as 'complicit' in the industry.

Does being a dominatrix involve having sex? Not in my opinion. In some states it would certainly be considered sex and it is universally considered sex work.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

108. I agree the industry is complicit. Interesting about dominatrices nt

[woo me with science]

136. Ah, the worldview of the anti-feminist "feminist."

It is still alive, unfortunately.

How weary actual feminists like me get of the 80's victim "feminists" you represent...the ones who believe that every woman is a victim, every man is a potential abuser, and every sexual fantasy might be a repressed or dissociated memory of abuse. God forbid that any woman would actually enjoy sex or....(gasp!) profit from it.

When did "feminism" become so Victorian?

[Sarah Ibarruri]

164. Oh looky here! A sample of the faux feminist...

Surely you like the kind of fake feminist that defends the right of a woman to get the shit beaten out of by her husband/boyfriend, etc. and to die by his hand, simply because it's her "right." Am I correct?

[woo me with science]

177. I will let that stunning response stand on its own

as a marvelous example of the quality of your argument.

[lildreamer316]

143. Look everyone! I'm tarnished forever!! Whoohoo!!

So, my life must suck, right?? *Looks around at her paid for house, wonderful loving spouse, beautiful child, great friends; IRA in the bank*
Yep.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

163. Why tarnished? Why not say emotionally fractured?

People that degrade themselves in this manner are probably emotionally destroyed prior to entering into these forms of degradation, and they end up even more fractures as a result of degrading themselves in this manner.

[anigbrowl]

171. The poster above you doesn't sound too emotionally fractured to me

Do you have any idea how patronizing you sound by saying this?

[Sarah Ibarruri]

174. I don't care how patronizing you say I sound. You seem hell-bent on defending some right which

isn't a right but a very pathetic set of degrading jobs taken by people who, if they had a choice, would not take them (unless they've got some mental problem).

Stop with the political correctness. It's not helping your argument and it's making you seem desperate for justification. You really need me to say, "It's okay if women use their bodies as inflatable dolls." I won't no matter how many times you go into your politically correctness harangue.

Further, since you're continuously responding with the same response (having no other way to respond), do so for someone else, as I will not be reading any further responses from this thread.

[woo me with science]

178. I bet you have recovered memories.

I could be wrong, but i have heard your brand of "feminism" from more professional victims than I care to recall.

[mondo joe]

156. IMO, you are as or more degrading to women, by "virtue" of your desire to put your choices for other

women above their own for their own lives and bodies.

[lildreamer316]

140. So the fact that I love my job should NEVER factor into your effort to take AWAY that right for ME??

Well thank you very much!
--lildreamer, the stripper of 13+ years.

[oedura]

200. This may come as a surprise to you...

...but there are millions of less-than-financially-secure women out there who go their whole lives without ever dancing naked or sucking a stranger's penis for money. Some of them even have kids they have to take care of.

Stop talking like every women ever associated with the adult entertainment industry went into it with a gun pointed at the back of her head.

[Joe Chi Minh]

17. As in prostitution, a lot of these women are more victims than miscreants.

Even in the industry, apparently, they are treated very badly. Not that you would expect better from the exploiters. But even if she wasn't in the least a victim, she's trying to make a very modest living, just as most of the rest of the world does. Her private life before was her affair. I wish it were outlawed, but it's not. She shouldn't have to answer to anyone.

[evilkumquat]

18. Man oh Man I Can't Understand the Members of My Sex

How can any of my fellow guys find those sweater whales attractive?

Having sex with her would be like like pounding away at a mound of suffocating balloons filled with that goo they used to use in the old Stretch Armstrong dolls.

In fact, I think I would probably rather screw the dolls, since they are at least more anatomically accurate representations of the human form... yes, even the monster versions.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

26. LOL! Too true. nt

[jaysunb]

22. Something similar happened to a friend of mine .

She had been a barmaid for years until she was in her 50's and unable to stand for long due to multiple illness, not to mention, not as attractive as she once was. She got a part time job as a lunch lady to supplement her SSD, and wouldn't you know it, a child's grandmother remembered her and the fact that she had been busted once for solicitation of an undercover cop.
Needless to say, they tossed her out on her ass.

Grandmas' late hubby used to be a regular boozer at the bar (she used to come looking for him on payday ) but had found Jesus by the time the liver gave out.

So much for not casting the first stone....:evilfrown:

[AnneD]

23. I believe Jesus said it best....

let he who is without sin cast the first stone. I think that argument still holds.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

28. Yes true, but why do women constantly set themselves up to be used, misused and degraded?

Don't we women already have enough trouble breaking that glass ceiling? Must women STILL be doing porn, engaging in prostitution, filling their chest with giant water balloons to get attention, refusing to prosecute men who abuse them, etc. etc. etc.?

It's too depressing.

[ZombieHorde]

44. Not to mention smoking, that is even worse.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

46. Smoking is a sexual activity? Oh boy. I find out new things every day nt

[ZombieHorde]

48. I never said that smoking is a sexual activity.

[anigbrowl]

59. There is rule 34 of it...

...although that is pretty much a given. I defer to the google to avoid offending the delicate sensibilities of DU.

[Quantess]

134. Smoking poles is.

[liberalhistorian]

69. Well, you know, some people

do smoke after sex. At least those few souls who still smoke.

Then there's this old, stale joke:

Do you smoke after sex?
Yes!
Then you're doing it too fast!!!

[Sarah Ibarruri]

84. LOL!!!! :-) nt

[anigbrowl]

128. I always heard it as 'No...' 'So why are you still with him/her?'

[liberalhistorian]

70. Delete,

double post.

[liberalhistorian]

63. Not every woman considers porn to be

degrading. Some might even enjoy it. Just sayin'.

[AnneD]

89. You are arguing over a red herring.....

that is not the issue here. It is a woman's right to do as she wishes, and some busy bodies with more time on their hands than common sense want to judge her and throw stones at this woman.

And frankly, so are you. Why do you pass judgement on her breast augmentation? It is not something I think is good, but I won't judge her one way or the other. In a society that does not value women or their contributions to society (excluding prostitution), what does anyone expect. We do very little to help women and their children.

I'd never judge a woman too harshly in what she had to do to take care of her family. We grew up knowing a neighbourhood woman that I learned later was a call girl (Mom knew it all along-but didn't tell us). She was single, had no skill but managed to send her kids to private school and college. She was always at home when they came home, they were well clothed, fed and loved and as far as I know they never knew what mom did. I remember her as a sweet, nice person. She was close to Mom because Mom treated her like a human being. We talk about her every now an again and hope it worked out well for her. Her sons were doing well last time we knew.

[Kurt_and_Hunter]

122. Your sisterhood solidarity trip would be more persuasive if

it included women who don't share your head-case world-view.

Maybe those women think you are an offensive crackpot and have no interest in living their lives to support YOUR idea of things.

Maybe they think YOU are degrading all women by acting out this hilarious caricature of a judgmental, self-righteous female crackpot on the internet and thereby making all women look like brittle tyrants.

Some woman taking money for sex is less of a slur on womanhood than someone who presumes to speak for women while spouting emetic gibberish.

[sarcasmo]

88. Really? Did you actually hear Jesus say that?

[AnneD]

97. Paraphrasing....

eyewitness accounts that were cross referenced... and having faith that there really was someone that once believed that loving you neighbor as you would yourself really was the answer.

Excuse me for thinking that everything I wrote would be taken literally, esp. by someone with the name of sarcasmo . My bad.

[Desperadoe]

38. "Porn Star"..................hardly

The lady appeared in 3 films. 3 films does not make you a "Porn Star".

How about a Topless Dancer who tried to cop a few quick bucks in a couple of 'el-cheapos', doing a little simulated lesbian sex and some masturbation. Wow, whadda star!!!

http://www.iafd.com/person.asp?perfid=CrystalGunns&gender=F

As opposed to a REAL Porn Star like Nina Hartley, who has appeared in 800 films

http://www.iafd.com/person.rme/perfid=Hartley/gender=F/Nina-Hartley.htm

Or, Felecia, who has appeared in 440 films and only has on-screen sex with other women.

http://www.iafd.com/person.rme/perfid=Felecia/gender=f/Felecia.htm

Porn Star, my ass.

[Cleita]

41. Are they afraid that she's going to do a pole dance in the cafeteria or

do lap dances for the first graders at recess?

[ismnotwasm]

49. Now that's some bullshit.

And you know what's messed up? Kids aren't stupid. Now all around the playground, there is some story going around about this woman, who sounds like she was minding her own business.

What I want to know is, what in the fuck these parents were thinking of? That this is healthy, making an adult issue part of school time? It sounds like if they hadn't brought it up in legal action, no one would have paid any attention. Kids would go on being kids.

Now there are other parents having to explain to their children why the nice lunch lady is in trouble. I'd be pissed if I had to have any kind of talk like that with an 8 year old. What assholes.

[brentspeak]

65. Why they just brand a scarlet letter on her forehead?

This woman is not allowed to start a brand-new life?

[elshiva]

80. AMEN!

:applause:

[readmoreoften]

92. You got it. Reactionary bullshit is what it is.

[otherlander]

123. Your post.

Full of win.
:thumbsup:

[mondo joe]

129. Precisely. They condemn her for what she used to do, and then try to prevent her from doing

something different.

Pigs.

[brentspeak]

71. Also, why is that jerk TV news reporter harrasing this woman at her house?

She committed no crime, but they're portraying her as if she's a criminal who should be treated as such.

[anigbrowl]

104. She rented her vagina. Worse than murder, don't ya know.

[elshiva]

79. I am saddened by this thread.

Too many posts attacking Tuck on the way she looks. She is a human being. Whatever you think of the porn industry, this is about a woman who is trying to keep her job. She's right to compare her situation to the Clinton "marijuana scandal." However, what she did wasn't even criminal.

I think "occupationalism" is a problem, too. I don't know if it's a real word, but I consider "occupationalism" to be a broad generalization about a person based on their occupation. For instance, "all female gym teachers are lesbians" is occupationalism. "Porn stars are all immoral" is another prejudice. :(

[otherlander]

124. Yeah.

*sigh*

[lildreamer316]

145. "All strippers are stupid and prostitutes"

Boy, don't I know THAT one.
Sigh.

[mondo joe]

155. Agreed. Her body, her choice. We easily apply that to abortion, as if it's sacred, but somehow

not to anything else she chooses.

If she wants implants, it's her body and her choice.

If she wants to work in porn, it's her body and her choice.

[Incitatus]

111. I doubt they would have much of a problem just buying her out for a years pay.

[Rincewind]

112. I could make a tasteless joke

about a box lunch, but I won't.

[JVS]

114. She should keep her job.

[Feron]

146. I don't see what the problem is.

Being a sex worker doesn't make a person a pervert that will endanger or corrupt little kids. And a person isn't a subhuman for being a sex worker. It's not an occupation I would choose, but I don't look down on those that do choose it.

Ms. Tuck has no history of acting inappropriately with children and says that she is no longer working in the porn industry. I don't see the problem. She should be allowed to keep her job.

Unfortunately they'll likely watch her like a hawk and find a reason to fire her no matter how trivial.

And what's sad is that some may feel trapped in the industry simply because they know that they will be shunned if they leave. Imagine if Ms. Tuck wanted to be a teacher.

[Mind_your_head]

149. "Show me a wo/man with no vices and I'll show you a wo/man with no virtues"

.

[saltpoint]

154. She works in the damn cafeteria, for god's sake.

Jesus.

I would ask Jack Nicholson to volunteer to handle the calls on this from irate community members.

[-..__...]

160. She probably created quite a stir on taco day!

[MrScorpio]

167. I think it's shameful how puritanism tries to hurt people for no good reason

If they do fire her, I hope she sues and wins big

[BlooInBloo]

173. I would imaginee that a grass-roots student movement, comprising approximately 50%...

of the student body has been quite active, working against her firing.

:rofl:

[Touchdown]

176. Over 175 replies and not one Sloppy Joe joke!

or...Joe; The Sloppy. I am so disappointed!:cry:

[LynneSin]

182. Unless she's dressing like a porn star while working the cafeteria - who cares

And who cares what she does to her breasts or why. We're just as bad as some of those parents - geez.

My only concern with Ms. Tuck working the cafeteria is how she is dressing when she goes there. If she's dressing like a porn star then that is bad. But for all we know she got rid of the boob job and looks like any typical woman - why should her past matter?

[LWolf]

184. Move her over to the middle school cafeteria.

A great PR move to increase the number of kids buying school lunch.

[dugaresa]

187. It is nonsense like this that proves that there is no such thing as forgiveness

people think I am nuts when I have stated that there are no "second chances"...they only way for people to get a second chance in life or to move past something is to move away, change your name and appearance and never confide in anyone.

Otherwise, you have to contend with folks digging up dirt on you for a lifetime and it sucks.

I have dealt with morons who can't forget something I did when I was kid (nothing serious) and they still judge me by my actions as a child...is it any wonder this woman is having a hard time starting over?

[Gwendolyn]

194. I'll bet my knickers that at least some of those people who scream publically...

about getting her axed, secretly enjoy the fruits of her former labor in private. :)

[oedura]

201. They'd pretty much have to...

...otherwise, how would they know what she used to do for a living?

Oh, wait...for the sake of the anti-porn crusade, they must have done some "research". (wink, wink)