Is there an "American" Holiday that is not shit on

[JANdad]

here at DU? Every friggin time a holiday rolls around...someone dipshit crawls out of the woodwork to take a huge shit on it...WHY?

[Deja Q]

1. Because toilet paper is too expensive these days?

:shrug:

[dem629]

172. That's about it. The people who have to run down every holiday are simply attention seekers.

They are trying to convey the heart-felt message: "Hey! Look at me! I am very earnest about everything!"

Yawn.

I went through a period like that in my teens, when I thought I would be taken seriously if I acted concerned and troubled by every damn thing. Most people get over that self-serving stage of life.

[MNDemNY]

2. Why not?

Everything is "shit on" here, at one time or another, why should this be different?

[tekisui]

3. Holy Days suck.

[TygrBright]

4. ummmm.... Arbor Day?

Why get your knickers in a knot?

Complaining is what we do. It was how and why this website was founded. Dogs bark. Fish swim. DUers find something to complain about.

Now you're complaining, too! About the complainers!

See how silly it gets?

helpfully,
Bright

[Bucky]

8. Fuck Arbor Day. It's a conspiracy. It's just an excuse for Hallmark to move pulp. It's racist.

Gimme a minute and I'll think of some more.

[HereSince1628]

11. Arbor day is Anti-Prairie n/t

[greguganus]

47. ...and anti-desert. We need a Desert Day! n/t

[HereSince1628]

48. I suppose that's true, too.

[AngryAmish]

144. What the fuck do you mean? Fucking Arbor encourages planting of non-native trees

Supporting Arbor Day means you support genocide against native trees.

[KittyWampus]

152. Very creative. You get extra points for working in the "native" angle. Oddly, while it's funny

you also bring up a good point!

Remember one thing---- Kudzu.

[amdezurik]

5. sorry to keep bursting your bubble

but hey if you insist on denying history (real history, not the Washington and the cherry tree type myths) then you might want to go to proflowers.com or hallmark.com where stuff like small pox laden blankets and the Trail of Tears and other things like that will never be mentioned...

[ieoeja]

17. Who do you blame for small pox laden blankets?

The ONE individual who committed that crime, or the government/society which arrested, convicted and punished the individual who committed that crime?

[Zuni]

37. It was actually a British General

I think in the 1750s or so...

[John Q. Citizen]

100. 200 years of war wasn't an accident, that's for sure.

[Celebration]

183. you and me, and everyone here who eats turkey today n/t

[Fire1]

42. HERE! HERE!!

[Madam Mossfern]

98. Hey!

I went to Andrew Jackson High school.

Let us sing of Andrew Jackson
and be like him if we can

He was nearly always right and he dearly loved to fight
for he was a mighty man

He was daring and pugnatious
He was steadfast and audatious

There have been no others like him
since our history began

Old Hickory and victory
Shall be our battle cry

As we gayly march upon our way
we will emulate his deeds each day

We'll try our best to stand the test
and be gallant brave and truuuuuuuuuuuuuueee

Forever we will fight for freedom and the right
Oh Andrew Jackson....for you!


LOL!

[Hissyspit]

135. Andrew Jackson is an ancestor of mine.

And he was an asshole.

[mitchum]

178. True, but he had GREAT hair

[leftchick]

54. And why the FUCK is Andrew Fucking Jackson on the twenty dollar bill???

biggest fucking racist, bigot, maniac asshole president ever. Until bush. I guess we can expect to see an airport named for dubya soon. :puke:

he was a fucking piece of shit like bush!

[This One]

66. I always thought that was John Kerry

[leftchick]

68. oh how funny!

:eyes:

[old mark]

70. Andrew Jackson is on John Kerry? i never even suspected.....nt

[mitchum]

179. I always thought Jackson looked like Jason Robards with great hair

[dem629]

173. Do you lose a lot of sleep over the picture on the 20?

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

65. I'm not sure what that has to do with the Pilgrims.

I thought the underlying virture of the holiday, or at least the myth of the holiday, was good will between the Pilgrims and Native Americans.

[XemaSab]

120. We can revise the history of the holiday without revising the meaning of the holiday

The false "history": the Puritans were hungry and the natives brought them food which both groups shared.

The meaning (YMMV): giving thanks that we live in a bountiful land, that we have food, that we have friends and relatives to share the holiday with, and that we live in AMERICA.

I see nothing wrong with celebrating the meaning, whatever you take it to be.

[Renew Deal]

147. You must have a very sad life.

[KansDem]

6. I don't recall "Labor Day" or "Memorial Day" being "shit on."

But then, I don't get out too much anymore...

[Bucky]

9. I think Labor Day is international, so it's not just "American"

Same with Memorial Day, which is the old VE Day. I can't imagine someone taking a dump on beating the Nazis.

[KansDem]

13. Thanks for the clarification...(nt)

[Warpy]

15. May Day is the international labor day

but the commie phobic Congress decided to make ours in September.

As for the other holidays, those of us with "those" families tend to dread them and all the gooey sentimentality expressed by the nice cornflakes people gets offensive really quickly.

If your family allowed you to wax nostalgic and sentimental around the holidays, enjoy it. Just don't ASSume the rest of us join you.

[BurtWorm]

16. Veterans Day was Armistice Day, which was the day marking the end of WWI, I believe.

And if I'm wrong, may the WWI vets forgive me.

[ieoeja]

23. On the 11th hour of the 11th day of the 11 month, WWI came to an end. n/t

[dflprincess]

18. I think if any kind of "Labor Day" is observed in other countries it's on May 1.

Labor Day in the U.S. is disappearing. When I was in high school and college I had a union job at a grocery store. Per our contract the store was closed on Memorial Day, Independence Day and Labor Day and we all got paid (part timers like me got 4 hours). Most people had those holidays off - now it looks to me like the only ones who get those days off are we who work in offices.

I find that especially sad when it comes to Labor Day.

[ContinentalOp]

60. Yeah, it pisses me off. I try to be really unproductive on Labor Day. That's the one day...

that nobody should have to work.

[NoPasaran]

40. Memorial Day is a legacy of the Civil War

Originally Decoration Day, it was instituted to honor those soldiers who fell fighting for the Union.

[rasputin1952]

102. Memorial Day is the old Decoration Day...it initially began as

a remembrance for Civil War dead, (mostly Union)...it became Memorial Day when it was decided that vets from other wars might be overlooked, especially WWI, (when it was changed to Mem Day).

One of the things I found fascinating at every job I've had...Managers were always the first one's out the door for that weekend...x(

[jrockford]

126. Labour Day *IS* international, but it falls on May 1st for the rest of the world.

No accident it's a different date in America. Can't have labour solidarity with the rest of the world.

[marmar]

7. Why is someone who examines a different, less polyanna perspective on a holiday a dipshit?

n/t

[anigbrowl]

30. Because some people just do it all the time in search of cred

Leftie puritans - any kind o celebration is a Bad Thing because people in different times and places may have suffered. Presumably it's intended as a counterweight to all the sales and marketing hoopla that goes on around holidays, but most people just want to celebrate some traditions without being insulted by someone who's doing the cynical pose about everything.

[Zhade]

90. You have no idea why people do it. You're not a mindreader (no one is).

NT!

[KittyWampus]

153. All human activity is based on only a few basic principles. You don't need to be a mind reader

If you're aware of those few basic principles.

[rucky]

10. Every day should be Labor Day

:)

[Zywiec]

12. Everyone here is a Debbie Downer

Everything is shit on.

[ieoeja]

14. "Blame America firsters" are not a myth.

They do exist. As Liberals we tolerate their view.

Consider the myth that passivism is a Liberal position. Historically, Liberal Democrats have been the internationalist party ready to wade into wars when necessary while Conservatives cautioned against foreign entanglements, etc. When I was a child the GOP used to call the Democratic Party the "War Party" because of Liberal aggressivism.

But when a war is underway, Conservatives rally 'round the flag. So during the Vietnam War, those opposed were attacked (often violently) by Conservative totalitarians. While it was Liberal Democrats who defended their right to express their opinion when most Democrats disagreed with it. So we got labelled anti-war.

Even a lot of Progressives today will argue that anti-war is a Liberal value ignoring two hundred years of American history that suggests otherwise.

Same thing with the "blame America firsters". We tolerate dissent. Heck, we enourage it. We count it as a true American value. The driving axiom behind Liberal thought is that you will never discover the truth if you are unwilling to consider the possibility that you are wrong.

[Greyhound]

27. Here's another myth, Democrats = Liberals. n/t

[jonnyblitz]

109. ain't that the truth. nt

[superduperfarleft]

36. Neither are the "Never Blame America for Anything Regardless of the Evidencers". n/t

[Regret My New Name]

61. Yeah, but America is peeeeeeeeerfect and does no wrong... jeez.

[Odin2005]

58. I'm both a Liberal and a Wilsonian Internationalist. The latter means I....

...get shat upon and called an imperialist, neo-colonialistne neocon supporter (even though I hate the neocons) because I think NATO should intervene in places like Darfur and Zimbabwe. :eyes:

Lest we forget, it was two LIBERALS, FDR and Truman, that crushed the Nazis and Japanese militarists and turned Germany into a bastion of Liberal Democracy.

[DutchLiberal]

192. Actually, it was Stalin and the soviets who crushed the nazi's, but do go on...

[Lorien]

169. How is being upset about the genocide against First Americans an example of

"blaming America first"? They ARE Americans. Some people don't like revisionist history and I can fully appreciate that. Others just want to accept the holiday for how it's portrayed in the mainstream today and enjoy it. I can appreciate that too. But I don't see how the first set can be called "blame America Firsters". That's absurd.

[IndianaJones]

19. "Classic Hit and run...stir-up-the-shit poster this one is..." bwaaahahaha. nt.

[mitchum]

20. Troll Day?

[QueenOfCalifornia]

57. Wait a minute...

not everyone who disagrees with some of you is a troll.

Perhaps the OP has noticed that a day where we get to all fight with a drunk uncle is hacked up on like a cat with giant hair-balls.

No matter how the "holiday" started - Has anyone thought that this is a day where we get to be with family and friends and feel a little bit happy? I guess not. Let us all suffer because our forefathers were total assholes. Let us never be happy because ancestors I never knew did some terrible shit.

I have a news flash - terrible shit has been going on ever since people started walking upright.

Let us make a difference now and tomorrow - the past is something we have zero control over.

Oh... I am not suggesting we "forget" the past - That is lame. I am suggesting we work from here to make things better.

have a nice Thanksgiving.

[bdamomma]

21. Secretaries Day or Administrative Assistants Day

:hide:

[XemaSab]

121. You didn't watch Ugly Betty last season

:hide:

[Greyhound]

22. Why is it that all the "realists", "pragmatists", and "centrists" get all worked up

when someone dares point out that we are a nation so steeped in our own mythology we have lost our minds?

We did commit deliberate genocide, multiple times.

We have built this nation on theft, the lives and suffering of others.

We have assassinated leaders and toppled legitimate governments.

[superduperfarleft]

26. OMG dat is so depressing! /sarcasm

Thank you for that post. It amazes me that people actually get angry when attempts are made to educate them.

[XemaSab]

122. You're welcome to spend tomorrow sitting in your own bodily fluids in a depressive stupor

I will be eating some DAMN fine cheesecake and toasting my man Obama.... 'cause we live in a country where all things are possible. :)

(Even some DAMN fine cheesecake. :D )

[Runcible Spoon]

32. amen to that!

wish I could rec a post

[hfojvt]

33. what do you mean 'we' white man?

Perhaps the glass is more than half full. Maybe we have done some good things too. Perhaps a noble spirit does embiggen us all.

[Greyhound]

34. Exactly. We. n/t

[anigbrowl]

39. So what? That doesn't make you special

Find my a nation that doesn't have any history of conflict, war and general Darwinism. The following do not count:

Smurfs
Carebears
My Little Pony

The US is flawed, but so's everywhere else. It's not as universally awful as some people like to suggest. Nor is the phenomenon of some people believing the country can do no wrong unique to the US. It's a human problem.

[Greyhound]

52. We 'may' not be the worst, I guess that's a matter of conscience which you seem to lack,

but America professes a philosophy of being a new and better idea. I will continue to point out that we fail at every opportunity to live up to those ideals, at least until we succeed.

"We suck less" is still not an endorsement.

[XemaSab]

123. We fail at every opportunity?

250 years ago we were a colony where nobody could vote.

150 years ago black people couldn't vote.

100 years ago women couldn't vote.

I rest my case.

[Fumesucker]

140. Today we have the highest incarceration rate on the planet.

And one in three black men will lose their right to vote.

You rested your case a touch too early.

[XemaSab]

164. Did I say we were perfect? No

I just said that we do not fail at every opportunity.

[Greyhound]

171. I'd hardly consider the charade of voting for a corporate sponsored

lackey a triumph of the "little people". More a pacifier.

We were a century late in abolition, and even then, simply replaced it with the slavery of debt.

We threw off an empire, only to allow them to take us over through bribery and subterfuge. We had about 40 years of opportunity to become our ideals, and we failed.

As the "Raygun Democrat" this was a reply to pointed out, we are not the worst. I maintain that simply being slightly less heinous is not comparable to being admirable, let alone, the best.

[Qibing Zero]

56. There are two questions to be asked in this type of argument

1 - What purpose does it serve in bringing up the fact we have a tainted history?

This one's easy. Because we're taught as kids in America that the country is extra special and without fault. Have you read a history textbook lately? Sure, they're a bit of a step up from textbooks 30 years ago, but the advances are hardly worth noting. With that kind of education, we end up with people who actually think America is always correct, certainly the 'best', and has each and every action it takes guided by the hand of god (or something equally ridiculous).

No one in their right mind states that America is the only country to engage in this type of behavior, but are you denying it's a problem? That leads into the second question..


2 - Why do people seek to marginalize the fact we have a tainted history?

Does it make any sense to counter 'America has a tainted history' with 'but so do other places!'? Not in the least. Even if we view America to be ahead of the rest of the world in some area, should we stop progressing forward? No, we should humble ourselves and realize that we'll likely never be perfect in any regard. We should admit our faults and work on going forward. I think a lot of people get confused when confronting criticism like this, and think the critics are just out there trying to be mean or something. But really, that's just relegating this to even fewer ears - there's no sense in attacking the critic instead of responding to the criticism.

Frankly, the discussion on our faults as a nation are not anywhere near 'mainstream' to the point where it would seem reasonable to say 'Okay, we've beaten the dead horse quite enough'. It follows that if you're attempting to marginalize the discussion, there's a good chance you think America's current approach to this and it's overall progression are adequate.

Personally, I feel we could learn a lot from our historical faults by applying them to the situations we get ourselves into today.

[XemaSab]

125. Well stated.

I think that the right response to our flawed history is to know our flaws, but celebrate our successes.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

69. Darwinism?

Did you just explain the genocide of Native Americans as "Darwinism?"

Oh my.

[anigbrowl]

75. No. I suggested that all nations have a history of violent competition

It's important to be able to criticize one's own social myths, but the tendency of some people to do so at every opportunity is little more than a form of one-upmanship, and I don't find it much different from other forms of fashionable angst.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

80. Then by all means...

explain your choice of the term Darwinism.

[anigbrowl]

84. I think it's obvious

Pure competition for the same resources, devoid of any particular morality.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

93. Ah, so I was right the first time.

You were dismissing the genocide of Native Americans as "Darwinism."

[Gwendolyn]

99. I think you're referring to "Social Darwinism." aren't you?

[Zhade]

Just because you're myopic on the issues, it doesn't mean they're trying to be "fashionable".

NT!

[Selatius]

110. False dichotomy, and a very vicious one at that.

Some members who post here are Native Americans.

[Greyhound]

181. Hear, hear. n/t

:kick:

[asteroid2003QQ47]

50. I'll join you and support your claim that the U.S. is Number One

"Every day we're told we live in the greatest country on earth and it's always stated as an undeniable fact: Leos are born between july 23 and August 22, fitted queen-size sheets measure 60X80 inches, and America is the greatest country on earth. Having grown up with this in our ears, it's startling to realize that other countries have nationalistic slogans too, none of which are 'We're number two!"
--Dave Sedaris, "Me Talk Pretty One Day"
:rofl:

(spelling edit)

[Greyhound]

55. Being number 1 would be a lot nicer if we chose better categories to be number 1 in.

Education, citizen happiness, infant mortality, longevity, justice, would be good examples.

Prison population (both in number and percentage of population), debt, wealth and income disparity, international meddling, not so much.

:hi:

[Ignis]

97. LA LA LA not listening! USA USA!

Your post is spot on.

Some of these "centrists" would probably read us the riot act if we opposed a Saint Ronnie the Raygun day. :eyes:

[illuminaughty]

117. Seriously, I think we're the craziest mofos on the planet.

And they can't understand why we're such a violent society. Built on raping and pillaging. Only country to EVER use nukes, but wants to police the world. And so on.

Damn, greyhound, I'd almost gone into my lobotomized mode, prepped for a day with the family tomorrow. Ya just had to go and shove REALITY in my face.

Hey, you know I just thought of something. We could have a "Sorry We Fucked Your Country Up" holiday and dedicate one day to each country/ethnic group we've seriously destroyed. That would be one long ass vacation.

[XemaSab]

127. If every country on earth had a holiday in honor of countries or ethnic groups they've taken a

big shit on...

...not much would get done on this planet.

Starting in the east (and this is off the top of my head): Japan, New Zealand, Australia, China, Indonesia, Mongolia, Russia, India, the *entire* Middle East, Turkey, Egypt, Greece, Serbia, Croatia, Macedonia, Italy, Germany, France, Belgium, the Netherlands, Denmark, Norway, Sweden, Spain, Portugal, England, (I am ignorant about African history but I can think of a lot of tribes that have attempted genocide on each other), the US, Canada, Mexico, and basically EVERY country in Central and South America.

And let it be known: I'm sure ALL the countries I didn't name have done something HORRIBLE somewhere along the line.

What am I leaving out? :shrug:

[progressive_realist]

141. Iceland.

Only settled once, so no conflicts between new and old populations. No wars. No neighbors to have conflict with. Raising the bar for civilized behavior since 930. O8)

[XemaSab]

165. They shoot whales

I don't think whaling is very civilized.

[leftchick]

159. you like lists?

here you go.....





http://academic.evergreen.edu/g/grossmaz/interventions.html


FROM WOUNDED KNEE TO IRAQ:

A CENTURY OF U.S. MILITARY INTERVENTIONS

by Dr. Zoltan Grossman

The following is a partial list of U.S. military interventions from 1890 to 2008.

Below the list is a Briefing on the History of U.S. Military Interventions.

The list and briefing are also available as a powerpoint presentation.

This guide does not include:

* mobilizations of the National Guard
* offshore shows of naval strength
* reinforcements of embassy personnel
* the use of non-Defense Department personnel (such as the Drug Enforcement Administration)
* military exercises
* non-combat mobilizations (such as replacing postal strikers)
* the permanent stationing of armed forces
* covert actions where the U.S. did not play a command and control role
* the use of small hostage rescue units
* most uses of proxy troops
* U.S. piloting of foreign warplanes
* foreign or domestic disaster assistance
* military training and advisory programs not involving direct combat
* civic action programs
* and many other military activities.

Among sources used, beside news reports, are the Congressional Record (23 June 1969), 180 Landings by the U.S. Marine Corp History Division, Ege & Makhijani in Counterspy (July-Aug, 1982), "Instances of Use of United States Forces Abroad, 1798-1993" by Ellen C. Collier of the Library of Congress Congressional Research Service, and Ellsberg in Protest & Survive.

Versions of this list have been published on Zmag.org, Neravt.com, and numerous other websites.

Translations of list: Spanish French Turkish Italian Chinese Greek Russian Czech Tamil Portuguese

Quotes in Christian Science Monitor and The Independent

Turkish newspaper urges that the United States be listed in Guinness Book of World Records as the Country with the Most Foreign Interventions.

COUNTRY OR STATE Dates of intervention Forces Comments
SOUTH DAKOTA 1890 (-?) Troops 300 Lakota Indians massacred at Wounded Knee.
ARGENTINA 1890 Troops Buenos Aires interests protected.
CHILE 1891 Troops Marines clash with nationalist rebels.
HAITI 1891 Troops Black revolt on Navassa defeated.
IDAHO 1892 Troops Army suppresses silver miners' strike.
HAWAII 1893 (-?) Naval, troops Independent kingdom overthrown, annexed.
CHICAGO 1894 Troops Breaking of rail strike, 34 killed.
NICARAGUA 1894 Troops Month-long occupation of Bluefields.
CHINA 1894-95 Naval, troops Marines land in Sino-Japanese War
KOREA 1894-96 Troops Marines kept in Seoul during war.
PANAMA 1895 Troops, naval Marines land in Colombian province.
NICARAGUA 1896 Troops Marines land in port of Corinto.
CHINA 1898-1900 Troops Boxer Rebellion fought by foreign armies.
PHILIPPINES 1898-1910 (-?) Naval, troops Seized from Spain, killed 600,000 Filipinos
CUBA 1898-1902 (-?) Naval, troops Seized from Spain, still hold Navy base.
PUERTO RICO 1898 (-?) Naval, troops Seized from Spain, occupation continues.
GUAM 1898 (-?) Naval, troops Seized from Spain, still use as base.
MINNESOTA 1898 (-?) Troops Army battles Chippewa at Leech Lake.
NICARAGUA 1898 Troops Marines land at port of San Juan del Sur.
SAMOA 1899 (-?) Troops Battle over succession to throne.
NICARAGUA 1899 Troops Marines land at port of Bluefields.
IDAHO 1899-1901 Troops Army occupies Coeur d'Alene mining region.
OKLAHOMA 1901 Troops Army battles Creek Indian revolt.
PANAMA 1901-14 Naval, troops Broke off from Colombia 1903, annexed Canal Zone 1914.
HONDURAS 1903 Troops Marines intervene in revolution.
DOMINICAN REPUBLIC 1903-04 Troops U.S. interests protected in Revolution.
KOREA 1904-05 Troops Marines land in Russo-Japanese War.
CUBA 1906-09 Troops Marines land in democratic election.
NICARAGUA 1907 Troops "Dollar Diplomacy" protectorate set up.
HONDURAS 1907 Troops Marines land during war with Nicaragua
PANAMA 1908 Troops Marines intervene in election contest.
NICARAGUA 1910 Troops Marines land in Bluefields and Corinto.
HONDURAS 1911 Troops U.S. interests protected in civil war.
CHINA 1911-41 Naval, troops Continuous occupation with flare-ups.
CUBA 1912 Troops U.S. interests protected in civil war.
PANAMA 1912 Troops Marines land during heated election.
HONDURAS 1912 Troops Marines protect U.S. economic interests.
NICARAGUA 1912-33 Troops, bombing 10-year occupation, fought guerillas
MEXICO 1913 Naval Americans evacuated during revolution.
DOMINICAN REPUBLIC 1914 Naval Fight with rebels over Santo Domingo.
COLORADO 1914 Troops Breaking of miners' strike by Army.
MEXICO 1914-18 Naval, troops Series of interventions against nationalists.
HAITI 1914-34 Troops, bombing 19-year occupation after revolts.
DOMINICAN REPUBLIC 1916-24 Troops 8-year Marine occupation.
CUBA 1917-33 Troops Military occupation, economic protectorate.
WORLD WAR I 1917-18 Naval, troops Ships sunk, fought Germany for 1 1/2 years.
RUSSIA 1918-22 Naval, troops Five landings to fight Bolsheviks
PANAMA 1918-20 Troops "Police duty" during unrest after elections.
HONDURAS 1919 Troops Marines land during election campaign.
YUGOSLAVIA 1919 Troops/Marines intervene for Italy against Serbs in Dalmatia.
GUATEMALA 1920 Troops 2-week intervention against unionists.
WEST VIRGINIA 1920-21 Troops, bombing Army intervenes against mineworkers.
TURKEY 1922 Troops Fought nationalists in Smyrna.
CHINA 1922-27 Naval, troops Deployment during nationalist revolt.
HONDURAS 1924-25 Troops Landed twice during election strife.
PANAMA 1925 Troops Marines suppress general strike.
CHINA 1927-34 Troops Marines stationed throughout the country.
EL SALVADOR 1932 Naval Warships send during Marti revolt.
WASHINGTON DC 1932 Troops Army stops WWI vet bonus protest.
WORLD WAR II 1941-45 Naval, troops, bombing, nuclear Hawaii bombed, fought Japan, Italy and Germay for 3 years; first nuclear war.
DETROIT 1943 Troops Army put down Black rebellion.
IRAN 1946 Nuclear threat Soviet troops told to leave north.
YUGOSLAVIA 1946 Nuclear threat, naval Response to shoot-down of US plane.
URUGUAY 1947 Nuclear threat Bombers deployed as show of strength.
GREECE 1947-49 Command operation U.S. directs extreme-right in civil war.
GERMANY 1948 Nuclear Threat Atomic-capable bombers guard Berlin Airlift.
CHINA 1948-49 Troops/Marines evacuate Americans before Communist victory.
PHILIPPINES 1948-54 Command operation CIA directs war against Huk Rebellion.
PUERTO RICO 1950 Command operation Independence rebellion crushed in Ponce.
KOREA 1951-53 (-?) Troops, naval, bombing , nuclear threats U.S./So. Korea fights China/No. Korea to stalemate; A-bomb threat in 1950, and against China in 1953. Still have bases.
IRAN 1953 Command Operation CIA overthrows democracy, installs Shah.
VIETNAM 1954 Nuclear threat French offered bombs to use against seige.
GUATEMALA 1954 Command operation, bombing, nuclear threat CIA directs exile invasion after new gov't nationalized U.S. company lands; bombers based in Nicaragua.
EGYPT 1956 Nuclear threat, troops Soviets told to keep out of Suez crisis; Marines evacuate foreigners.
LEBANON l958 Troops, naval Marine occupation against rebels.
IRAQ 1958 Nuclear threat Iraq warned against invading Kuwait.
CHINA l958 Nuclear threat China told not to move on Taiwan isles.
PANAMA 1958 Troops Flag protests erupt into confrontation.
VIETNAM l960-75 Troops, naval, bombing, nuclear threats Fought South Vietnam revolt & North Vietnam; one million killed in longest U.S. war; atomic bomb threats in l968 and l969.
CUBA l961 Command operation CIA-directed exile invasion fails.
GERMANY l961 Nuclear threat Alert during Berlin Wall crisis.
LAOS 1962 Command operation Military buildup during guerrilla war.
CUBA l962 Nuclear threat, naval Blockade during missile crisis; near-war with Soviet Union.
IRAQ 1963 Command operation CIA organizes coup that killed president, brings Ba'ath Party to power, and Saddam Hussein back from exile to be head of the secret service.
PANAMA l964 Troops Panamanians shot for urging canal's return.
INDONESIA l965 Command operation Million killed in CIA-assisted army coup.
DOMINICAN REPUBLIC 1965-66 Troops, bombing Marines land during election campaign.
GUATEMALA l966-67 Command operation Green Berets intervene against rebels.
DETROIT l967 Troops Army battles African Americans, 43 killed.
UNITED STATES l968 Troops After King is shot; over 21,000 soldiers in cities.
CAMBODIA l969-75 Bombing, troops, naval Up to 2 million killed in decade of bombing, starvation, and political chaos.
OMAN l970 Command operation U.S. directs Iranian marine invasion.
LAOS l971-73 Command operation, bombing U.S. directs South Vietnamese invasion; "carpet-bombs" countryside.
SOUTH DAKOTA l973 Command operation Army directs Wounded Knee siege of Lakotas.
MIDEAST 1973 Nuclear threat World-wide alert during Mideast War.
CHILE 1973 Command operation CIA-backed coup ousts elected marxist president.
CAMBODIA l975 Troops, bombing Gas captured ship, 28 die in copter crash.
ANGOLA l976-92 Command operation CIA assists South African-backed rebels.
IRAN l980 Troops, nuclear threat, aborted bombing Raid to rescue Embassy hostages; 8 troops die in copter-plane crash. Soviets warned not to get involved in revolution.
LIBYA l981 Naval jets Two Libyan jets shot down in maneuvers.
EL SALVADOR l981-92 Command operation, troops Advisors, overflights aid anti-rebel war, soldiers briefly involved in hostage clash.
NICARAGUA l981-90 Command operation, naval CIA directs exile (Contra) invasions, plants harbor mines against revolution.
LEBANON l982-84 Naval, bombing, troops Marines expel PLO and back Phalangists, Navy bombs and shells Muslim positions.
GRENADA l983-84 Troops, bombing Invasion four years after revolution.
HONDURAS l983-89 Troops Maneuvers help build bases near borders.
IRAN l984 Jets Two Iranian jets shot down over Persian Gulf.
LIBYA l986 Bombing, naval Air strikes to topple nationalist gov't.
BOLIVIA 1986 Troops Army assists raids on cocaine region.
IRAN l987-88 Naval, bombing US intervenes on side of Iraq in war.
LIBYA 1989 Naval jets Two Libyan jets shot down.
VIRGIN ISLANDS 1989 Troops St. Croix Black unrest after storm.
PHILIPPINES 1989 Jets Air cover provided for government against coup.
PANAMA 1989 (-?) Troops, bombing Nationalist government ousted by 27,000 soldiers, leaders arrested, 2000+ killed.
LIBERIA 1990 Troops Foreigners evacuated during civil war.
SAUDI ARABIA 1990-91 Troops, jets Iraq countered after invading Kuwait. 540,000 troops also stationed in Oman, Qatar, Bahrain, UAE, Israel.
IRAQ 1990-? Bombing, troops, naval Blockade of Iraqi and Jordanian ports, air strikes; 200,000+ killed in invasion of Iraq and Kuwait; no-fly zone over Kurdish north, Shiite south, large-scale destruction of Iraqi military.
KUWAIT 1991 Naval, bombing, troops Kuwait royal family returned to throne.
LOS ANGELES 1992 Troops Army, Marines deployed against anti-police uprising.
SOMALIA 1992-94 Troops, naval, bombing U.S.-led United Nations occupation during civil war; raids against one Mogadishu faction.
YUGOSLAVIA 1992-94 Naval NATO blockade of Serbia and Montenegro.
BOSNIA 1993-? Jets, bombing No-fly zone patrolled in civil war; downed jets, bombed Serbs.
HAITI 1994 Troops, naval Blockade against military government; troops restore President Aristide to office three years after coup.
ZAIRE (CONGO) 1996-97 Troops Marines at Rwandan Hutu refugee camps, in area where Congo revolution begins.
LIBERIA 1997 Troops Soldiers under fire during evacuation of foreigners.
ALBANIA 1997 Troops Soldiers under fire during evacuation of foreigners.
SUDAN 1998 Missiles Attack on pharmaceutical plant alleged to be "terrorist" nerve gas plant.
AFGHANISTAN 1998 Missiles Attack on former CIA training camps used by Islamic fundamentalist groups alleged to have attacked embassies.
IRAQ 1998-? Bombing, Missiles Four days of intensive air strikes after weapons inspectors allege Iraqi obstructions.
YUGOSLAVIA 1999 Bombing, Missiles Heavy NATO air strikes after Serbia declines to withdraw from Kosovo. NATO occupation of Kosovo.
YEMEN 2000 Naval USS Cole, docked in Aden, bombed.
MACEDONIA 2001 Troops NATO forces deployed to move and disarm Albanian rebels.
UNITED STATES 2001 Jets, naval Reaction to hijacker attacks on New York, DC
AFGHANISTAN 2001-? Troops, bombing, missiles Massive U.S. mobilization to overthrow Taliban, hunt Al Qaeda fighters, install Karzai regime, and battle Taliban insurgency. More than 30,000 U.S. troops and numerous private security contractors carry our occupation.
YEMEN 2002 Missiles Predator drone missile attack on Al Qaeda, including a US citizen.
PHILIPPINES 2002-? Troops, naval Training mission for Philippine military fighting Abu Sayyaf rebels evolves into US combat missions in Sulu Archipelago next to Mindanao.
COLOMBIA 2003-? Troops US special forces sent to rebel zone to back up Colombian military protecting oil pipeline.
IRAQ 2003-? Troops, naval, bombing, missiles Saddam regime toppled in Baghdad. More than 250,000 U.S. personnel participate in invasion. US and UK forces occupy country and battle Sunni and Shi'ite insurgencies. More than 160,000 troops and numerous private contractors carry out occupation and build large permanent bases.
LIBERIA 2003 Troops Brief involvement in peacekeeping force as rebels drove out leader.
HAITI 2004-05 Troops, naval Marines land after right-wing rebels oust elected President Aristide, who was advised to leave by Washington.
PAKISTAN 2005-? Missiles, bombing, covert operation CIA missile and air strikes and Special Forces raids on alleged Al Qaeda and Taliban refuge villages kill multiple civilians.
SOMALIA 2007-? Missiles, naval AC-130 strikes; naval blockade and Cruise missile attacks against Islamist rebels
SYRIA 2008 Troops Special Forces in helicopter raid 5 miles from Iraq kill 8 Syrian civilians

(Death toll estimates from wars can be found in the Historical Atlas of the 20th Century by alphabetized places index, map series, and major casualties .)



A BRIEFING ON THE HISTORY

OF U.S. MILITARY INTERVENTIONS

By Zoltán Grossman, October 2001

Published in Z magazine. Translations in Italian Polish

Since the September 11 attacks on the United States, most people in the world agree that the perpetrators need to be brought to justice, without killing many thousands of civilians in the process. But unfortunately, the U.S. military has always accepted massive civilian deaths as part of the cost of war. The military is now poised to kill thousands of foreign civilians, in order to prove that killing U.S. civilians is wrong.

The media has told us repeatedly that some Middle Easterners hate the U.S. only because of our "freedom" and "prosperity." Missing from this explanation is the historical context of the U.S. role in the Middle East, and for that matter in the rest of the world. This basic primer is an attempt to brief readers who have not closely followed the history of U.S. foreign or military affairs, and are perhaps unaware of the background of U.S. military interventions abroad, but are concerned about the direction of our country toward a new war in the name of "freedom" and "protecting civilians."

The United States military has been intervening in other countries for a long time. In 1898, it seized the Philippines, Cuba, and Puerto Rico from Spain, and in 1917-18 became embroiled in World War I in Europe. In the first half of the 20th century it repeatedly sent Marines to "protectorates" such as Nicaragua, Honduras, Panama, Haiti, and the Dominican Republic. All these interventions directly served corporate interests, and many resulted in massive losses of civilians, rebels, and soldiers. Many of the uses of U.S. combat forces are documented in A History of U.S. Military Interventions since 1890: http://academic.evergreen.edu/g/grossmaz/interventions.html

U.S. involvement in World War II (1941-45) was sparked by the surprise attack on Pearl Harbor, and fear of an Axis invasion of North America. Allied bombers attacked fascist military targets, but also fire-bombed German and Japanese cities such as Dresden and Tokyo, party under the assumption that destroying civilian neighborhoods would weaken the resolve of the survivors and turn them against their regimes. Many historians agree that fire- bombing's effect was precisely the opposite--increasing Axis civilian support for homeland defense, and discouraging potential coup attempts. The atomic bombing of Japan at the end of the war was carried out without any kind of advance demonstration or warning that may have prevented the deaths of hundreds of thousands of innocent civilians.

The war in Korea (1950-53) was marked by widespread atrocities, both by North Korean/Chinese forces, and South Korean/U.S. forces. U.S. troops fired on civilian refugees headed into South Korea, apparently fearing they were northern infiltrators. Bombers attacked North Korean cities, and the U.S. twice threatened to use nuclear weapons. North Korea is under the same Communist government today as when the war began.

During the Middle East crisis of 1958, Marines were deployed to quell a rebellion in Lebanon, and Iraq was threatened with nuclear attack if it invaded Kuwait. This little-known crisis helped set U.S. foreign policy on a collision course with Arab nationalists, often in support of the region's monarchies.

In the early 1960s, the U.S. returned to its pre-World War II interventionary role in the Caribbean, directing the failed 1961 Bay of Pigs exile invasion of Cuba, and the 1965 bombing and Marine invasion of the Dominican Republic during an election campaign. The CIA trained and harbored Cuban exile groups in Miami, which launched terrorist attacks on Cuba, including the 1976 downing of a Cuban civilian jetliner near Barbados. During the Cold War, the CIA would also help to support or install pro-U.S. dictatorships in Iran, Chile, Guatemala, Indonesia, and many other countries around the world.

[XemaSab]

166. Where did I say we were perfect?

We're not perfect, and neither is any other country.

[leftchick]

175. yes indeed

yet on a scale of magnitude, we make the roman empire look quaint.

[XemaSab]

176. Yeah, and the Mongols make us look like my great-grandma Enid

:P

[illuminaughty]

188. This is a great map and compilation.

Thank you. Yes, other countries have horrid pasts, but for such a young nation, we really have outdone ourselves.

[leftchick]

190. here is a great book I highly recommend

http://www.killinghope.org/

It's not a pretty picture.
It is enough to give imperialism a bad name.

Read the full details in:

Killing Hope: US Military and CIA
Interventions Since World War II.

by William Blum


"Far and away the best book on the topic."
Noam Chomsky

"I enjoyed it immensely."
Gore Vidal

"I bought several more copies to circulate to
friends with the hope of shedding new light
and understanding on their political outlooks."
Oliver Stone

"A very valuable book. The research and organization
are extremely impressive."
A. J. Langguth, author, former New York Times Bureau Chief

"A very useful piece of work, daunting in scope,
important."
Thomas Powers, author, Pulitzer Prize-winning journalist


Table of Contents
Introduction
1. China - 1945 to 1960s: Was Mao Tse-tung just paranoid?
2. Italy - 1947-1948: Free elections, Hollywood style
3. Greece - 1947 to early 1950s: From cradle of democracy to client state
4. The Philippines - 1940s and 1950s: America's oldest colony
5. Korea - 1945-1953: Was it all that it appeared to be?
6. Albania - 1949-1953: The proper English spy
7. Eastern Europe - 1948-1956: Operation Splinter Factor
8. Germany - 1950s: Everything from juvenile delinquency to terrorism
9. Iran - 1953: Making it safe for the King of Kings
10. Guatemala - 1953-1954: While the world watched
11. Costa Rica - Mid-1950s: Trying to topple an ally - Part 1
12. Syria - 1956-1957: Purchasing a new government
13. Middle East - 1957-1958: The Eisenhower Doctrine claims another backyard for America
14. Indonesia - 1957-1958: War and pornography
15. Western Europe - 1950s and 1960s: Fronts within fronts within fronts
16. British Guiana - 1953-1964: The CIA's international labor mafia
17. Soviet Union - Late 1940s to 1960s: From spy planes to book publishing
18. Italy - 1950s to 1970s: Supporting the Cardinal's orphans and techno-fascism
19. Vietnam - 1950-1973: The Hearts and Minds Circus
20. Cambodia - 1955-1973: Prince Sihanouk walks the high-wire of neutralism
21. Laos - 1957-1973: L'Armée Clandestine
22. Haiti - 1959-1963: The Marines land, again
23. Guatemala - 1960: One good coup deserves another
24. France/Algeria - 1960s: L'état, c'est la CIA
25. Ecuador - 1960-1963: A text book of dirty tricks
26. The Congo - 1960-1964: The assassination of Patrice Lumumba
27. Brazil - 1961-1964: Introducing the marvelous new world of death squads
28. Peru - 1960-1965: Fort Bragg moves to the jungle
29. Dominican Republic - 1960-1966: Saving democracy from communism by getting rid of democracy
30. Cuba - 1959 to 1980s: The unforgivable revolution
31. Indonesia - 1965: Liquidating President Sukarno ... and 500,000 others
East Timor - 1975: And 200,000 more
32. Ghana - 1966: Kwame Nkrumah steps out of line
33. Uruguay - 1964-1970: Torture -- as American as apple pie
34. Chile - 1964-1973: A hammer and sickle stamped on your child's forehead
35. Greece - 1964-1974: "Fuck your Parliament and your Constitution," said
the President of the United States
36. Bolivia - 1964-1975: Tracking down Che Guevara in the land of coup d'etat
37. Guatemala - 1962 to 1980s: A less publicized "final solution"
38. Costa Rica - 1970-1971: Trying to topple an ally -- Part 2
39. Iraq - 1972-1975: Covert action should not be confused with missionary work
40. Australia - 1973-1975: Another free election bites the dust
41. Angola - 1975 to 1980s: The Great Powers Poker Game
42. Zaire - 1975-1978: Mobutu and the CIA, a marriage made in heaven
43. Jamaica - 1976-1980: Kissinger's ultimatum
44. Seychelles - 1979-1981: Yet another area of great strategic importance
45. Grenada - 1979-1984: Lying -- one of the few growth industries in Washington
46. Morocco - 1983: A video nasty
47. Suriname - 1982-1984: Once again, the Cuban bogeyman
48. Libya - 1981-1989: Ronald Reagan meets his match
49. Nicaragua - 1981-1990: Destabilization in slow motion
50. Panama - 1969-1991: Double-crossing our drug supplier
51. Bulgaria 1990/Albania 1991: Teaching communists what democracy is all about
52. Iraq - 1990-1991: Desert holocaust
53. Afghanistan - 1979-1992: America's Jihad
54. El Salvador - 1980-1994: Human rights, Washington style
55. Haiti - 1986-1994: Who will rid me of this turbulent priest?
56. The American Empire - 1992 to present
Notes
Appendix I: This is How the Money Goes Round
Appendix II: Instances of Use of United States Armed Forces Abroad, 1798-1945
Appendix III: U. S. Government Assassination Plots
Index

[illuminaughty]

194. Thank you. I'm such a book junkie

that I have implied strict rules for myself. Not allowed to buy another until current one is finished. (I know, common sense, but, I used to be completely out of control.

So, I'll check this out when I finish "Shock Doctrine"

[Greyhound]

174. My apologies, I hope you are enjoying you day. n/t

[leftchick]

158. oh, oh I know why!!!

because life is so much easier living in denial!



:)


the fact is the usa is a fucking farce of an empire built on human suffering around the globe.

[ColbertWatcher]

24. We do it so we can hear from you! n/t

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

25. "Sacred cows make the best hamburger." Mark Twain Or, in this case, Sacred Turkeys.

[Ignis]

28. That's a lot of shit for two sentences!

Signed,
Someone Dipshit

[emilyg]

29. The older I get the more

I appreciate each Holiday. Life is short - enjoy.

[Gwendolyn]

44. Me too.

:)

And even though I'm an atheist, both the Christian and Jewish Sabbath are my favorite of all. They come every week and follow each other, so it's great to plan fun activities with loved ones and friends. I wonder why more people don't crap all over those as well, given the history.

[lib2DaBone]

86. Agree. Life is so short. I cry when I see how bad our Senior Citizens are treated..

[Jamastiene]

31. Oh, great! It's the "Why Do You Hate America?" meme.

Like we haven't heard that enough over the last 8 years. :eyes:

[Evoman]

35. I love when people shit on holidays. It makes me happy.

In fact, I love when people shit on any meaningless, thought-less tradition. It's plain fun to piss on myths and frauds and fake-ass bullshit.

And I love when people complain about it, because it gives everybody another excuse to keep on shitting on your precious day.

[charlie]

41. Happy St Incontinentus Day!

Patron saint of laxatives and diuretics! Remember to hang an enema bag over the fireplace for when he visits.

Deck the halls with bowels of folly, fa-la-la-la-la... :D

[Evoman]

43. Ha!

I loved Deck the halls, because there was so many ways to change the words to make it an awesome song.

My favourite: Deck the Halls with Santa's Balls.

I also liked: Deck my balls with Holly's mouth. (Holly was a girl in my grade 5 class...she was the most popular girl in our class!!)

[QueenOfCalifornia]

59. Oh boy

I bet you are a laugh riot to have over on Christmas day.

[Evoman]

76. Actually, I am.

I get together with my family, and we have a blast. The holiday means nothing to me besides getting together, which for some reason we don't do enough on non-holiday days.

Last Christmas I had my family in stitches telling really bad Jesus jokes. Even the christians in my family were pissing themselves.

[Zhade]

94. I'd invite him.

NT!

[Gwendolyn]

38. Holidays are sleep-in days and each one is precious!

[slackmaster]

45. Festivus!

For the rest of us.

[Javaman]

49. I look forward to the feats of strength every year. nt

[Patsy Stone]

82. The Airing of Grievances

has apparently started early this year.

[Uncle Joe]

46. Friday,

it's the only day of the week people thank the creator for, even if they don't believe in a creator.

Therefore I propose we make every Friday a national holiday, three day weekends the year round and then maybe Thursday will get the long overdue respect it deserves.

[Qibing Zero]

51. Oh come on

If this isn't a Barbara Bush esque 'beautiful mind' moment I don't know what is!


"Why do I have to keep hearing about the terrible things that happened in the past? I don't want to waste my beautiful holiday on that!"

[leftchick]

53. perhaps because Democracy in the USA

is based on total fucking bullshit. Killing native Americans by the millions, Honoring a rapist genocidal maniac like Columbus, Attacking other countries and waging wars/coups the world over and establishing permanent colonies aka:US bases over and over for corporate greed while killing millions in the name of "Democracy"? It is a fucking perverted joke.

god bless murika! :puke:

[Celeborn Skywalker]

67. lol.

ok...
:eyes:

[leftchick]

71. great response!

I am so very impressed!


:sarcasm:

[Zhade]

95. Rolling your eyes at the truth doesn't diminish the truth.

NT!

[SoCalDem]

73. The movies of the 30's & 40's have "shaped" what 'Merakins call

tradition..

Prior to all those schmaltzy movies, people pretty much did their own thing, as their parents had done..and paid little attention to what was the "correct" way to celebrate..or not..

The funny thing?

MOST of the movies were made by Jewish immigrants who really believed the fairy tales about america,. and were so deliriously happy to have made it here, that many of their movies were more like love-letters to the myths they believed in, and in turn, their movies created their own dreams-come-true, and made many believe those myths..because they saw it played out on the big screen

[leftchick]

77. thank you socal

you are always a font of critical information and I love ya!

:hug:

[SoCalDem]

83. love ya back:)

I watch a lot of documentaries on PBS, and there was a great one a few years back, about this.. It made a lot of sense..

Also back then, there were very few college graduates, and not even "most" people had high school diplomas.. these were the grown up immigrant children..who had probably worked as children, prior to laws forbidding it.. they went to the movies all the time, and their ideas , in turn shaped their children..

My maternal grandfather used to BRAG about achieving a 6th grade education..my maternal grandmother only made it to 4th grade..My husband's mother taught school with a 10th grade achievment of her own..

People did not buy books..there was no "extra" moeny for stuff like that.. If they lived near a library, and had time to read, they might have checked out books, but with limited time, educations and an abundance of chores to do, movies were their "educations"..

[Evoman]

78. A couple of thanksgivings ago, my sister wanted to do that TV crap where everybody goes

around the table and says what they are thankful for. We've never done that before, and I know she got that shit from some crappy sitcoms.

I stood up and said I was thankful that I cut my TV cable and no longer had to accidentally catch an episode of Family Matters.

[dana_b]

88. oh, I'm going to use that one tomorrow!!

hope you don't mind.

yes, my family does that "Family Matters" crap. I hate it.

[KittyWampus]

154. You are pathetic if you can't express gratitude. You have lost your humanity. It doesn't matter

where your sister got the idea, it was a sound one.

[Evoman]

184. I can express my gratitude just fine.

That's why I thank my sister for the food. It's why I thank people when they do things for me, and I thank myself when I do things for myself.

What I don't need to do is stand up and do that bullshit on a meaningless day because it's what they do on tv. If that means I've ...lol...lost my humanity, then good.

[asteroid2003QQ47]

186. The glory of Christian forgiveness! :rofl:

Bill Hicks on Christianity--
I did that joke in Alabama, in Fife, and these three rednecks met me after the show. "Hey, buddy! C'mere! Mr. Funny-man, c'mere! Hey, buddy, we're Christians, and we don't like what you said." "So then forgive me." Anyway, later, as I was hanging in the tree...

[mitchum]

180. Yes,I have always enjoyed the fact that so many of the myths that WASPs...

hold to be so true, were indeed created by Jews in Hollywood in the 30s and 40s
Then again, I like irony

[eowyn_of_rohan]

107. funny thing - I have more white ancestors who were killed by native Americans

than who killed them. Don't throw ALL Americans -past and present- into this pile of shit.

[leftchick]

142. several million relatives?

# "The destruction of the Indians of the Americas was, far and away, the most massive act of genocide in the history of the world." David E. Stannard, American Holocaust: the Conquest of the New World (1992)

http://users.erols.com/mwhite28/warstat0.htm#America


If you want to study the question of pre-Columbian population and its subsequent decline in detail, two good books to start with are David Henige, Numbers From Nowhere (1998) and Russell Thornton, American Indian Holocaust and Survival (1987).

Population of the Western Hemisphere in 1492 according to various experts:





The problem, of course, is that by the time that the Europeans got around to counting the Indians, there were a lot fewer to count

I've graphed the estimates chronlogically to show that the passage of time and the gathering of more information is still not leading toward a consensus. Over the past 75 years, estimates have bounced around wildly and ended up right back where they started -- around 40 million.

I've also graphed the population of Europe in 1500 because this is magic number to which many of the estimates aspire. Native American history is traditionally treated as marginal -- a handful of primitive kingdoms that were easily overwhelmed by the most dynamic civilization on Earth -- but if it could somehow be proven that the Americas had even more people than Europe, then history would be turned upside down. The European conquest could be treated as the tail wagging the dog, like the Barbarian invasions of Rome, a small fringe of savages decending on the civilized world, wiping out or enslaving the bulk of humanity.

[Skittles]

62. holidays depress some folk

don't let 'em get you down

[Regret My New Name]

63. I won't let 'you people' get me up....

DAMN YOU ALL AND YOUR HOLIDAY CHEER!

[Skittles]

64. actually.........

I'm one of those folk who does not give a damn about the holidays - I can count on one hand the number of Thanksgiving dinners I have eaten and I haven't received a Christmas present in years :D

[Regret My New Name]

87. heh... I'm pretty indifferent about it myself..

Usually take part in it for family, but if I could get out of it I would... I don't interfere with others enjoyment of it though. I figure whatever floats their boats. In other words, I try not to rant on and on about how I would rather be doing other things, or bringing up political discussions about the history surrounding the holiday every chance I get...

Which isn't to say I'm against that, because I am and I think it's important, I just get annoyed when its done more out of spite than for actual discussion... Which is not relevant to my initial response, but I think relevant to this thread as a whole... Which I was going to make post directly in response to the original, but I decided to go the other route... I should go to sleep now.

[slay]

133. I hear ya

and feel the same way. Lets not celebrate together. lol. :hi:

[northernlights]

72. just a nit, but "shat" on

Just so you're not confused with a freeper, I believe you meant to use "shit" in the past tense. That would be "shat" on. Or "shat upon" if you want to be more formal.

[Dukkha]

74. Earth Day?

Not counting the constant greenwashing that occurs when the big corporate polluters sponsor Earth Day events.

[asteroid2003QQ47]

79. I shit on your fucking 'Feel Good' Earth Day! n/t

[XemaSab]

128. Does America lay sole claim to Earth Day?

:P

[asteroid2003QQ47]

139. I don't know, but it sure has the scent of America.

Kill a tree for Santa, coming up next.
Where the hell did I put my Festivus Pole?
Arrgh!

[ACTION BASTARD]

81. Halloween is tops. The fact that some religons ignore it makes it especially sweeter.

I'd prefer mouthbreathers not bringing in their dirty christian religion into my pagan celebration.

Yeah, and I refer to it as Xmas. I day that I get/give presents.

[iamincali83]

85. This is a dumb subject.

:eyes:

[XemaSab]

129. Welcome to DU!

You'll fit right in here! :hi:

[Zhade]

89. Fucking Arbor Day!

NT!

[Greyhound]

91. Just another shit stirrer, hit and run. n/t

[JANdad]

101. Nope...

just got back home from buying up the hoilday feast...HAPPY THANKGIVING!

[emilyg]

103. Happy Thanksgiving!

[Greyhound]

118. Same to you, enjoy. n/t

[DireStrike]

92. St. Patricks?

Although... how "American" is it really? :evilgrin:

[TexasObserver]

96. It's called Free Speech, where someone is always shitting on something.

Every holiday has elements of hypocrisy in it, and that's why there will always be naysayers for any holiday.

Thanksgiving? A bogus celebration that lauds the "no good deed goes unpunished" rule in America.

Christmas? A pagan holiday stolen by the early Catholic church to sell xtianity to peasants.

[Bluebear]

104. By all means don't link the thread to which you're referring. Just stir the pot.

[eowyn_of_rohan]

105. Happy Thanksgiving!

There is plenty to feel grateful for and proud of in our country, past and present, including our ancestors who came here before us. I'm hosting Thanksgiving dinner tomorrow for 16 people, have been working all day, and feel tired - but its a good tired, and I'm looking forward to a great holiday.

[madeline_con]

106. Misery loves company. eom

[Selatius]

108. If opening a history book and reading what happened to Native Americans is shitting on a holiday...

then I would have to say historians who write history books shit on it every year. Without them, we wouldn't remember past truths, ugly or pretty as they are.

[eowyn_of_rohan]

111. Try opening a few more books and reading as many perspectives as you can

to have a better understanding of our country's true history. A great way to do this is to research your family's genealogy. I guarantee your eyes will be opened.

[Selatius]

112. Well, as far as my genealogy goes here in the US, I have no roots.

My parents immigrated here, and I'm of the first generation actually born on US soil. It gives me a certain detached perspective of American history. I guess a result of that is that I can view cultural artifacts in a certain light, ugly or not, without being as emotionally invested in them as some other Americans.

[eowyn_of_rohan]

116. That "ability" to categorize in black and white is not a plus

[Selatius]

137. I wouldn't consider it black and white. It would be false to characterize it as such.

History is a topic that is nothing but shades of gray as opposed to being black and white. There are many views of history, but ultimately, a sober examination of the past requires an examination of empirical fact as well as accounts of people who bore witness to events as they occurred, preferably without being blinded by emotional or personal bias. Having said that, I refuse to celebrate the popular conception of Thanksgiving Day. It was a personal choice of mine, and I think each individual should decide for himself or herself what is best, given the relevant information.

If it pleases you, you should read the other responses I've written in this thread. Thanks.

[XemaSab]

130. The big eye opening I had:

My Swedish great-grandpa's ENTIRE FAMILY died of the flu, leaving him orphaned in the New World at age 13. :o

That would SUCK, to put it mildly.

[Gwendolyn]

114. Too bad you can't enjoy it for what it really is... an ancient Harvest festival.

Many cultures observe some version of it, and while Americans have built some kind of fictional account around its origins here, Thanksgiving really symbolizes a celebration of the earth and that which it provides us.

[Selatius]

115. I was generally speaking to the popular conception of Thanksgiving Day.

While what you say is true, many Americans (maybe most?) only remember the stylized, fictionalized account. That is the version I have no use for, but I would be far from attempting to spoil anybody else who does choose to celebrate that version.

If I do celebrate harvest time, I do so despite the popular notion of Thanksgiving Day. I come from a long line of small family farmers and shop owners. We celebrate good friends, good health, and good company without the need for stylized accounts. In hard years, that is really all we have. There is no use for propaganda.

[H2O Man]

136. Right.

Thanks.

[Iggo]

113. Man, I gotta take a shit.

Where's edwardsguy's favorite holiday?

:hurts:

[Swamp Rat]

119. LOL!!

:D

[Quantess]

124. Halloween is pretty cool. It's the fundies who hate on halloween.

I bet fundie christians also frown upon Dia De Los Muertos, when they are made aware of it.
Fundies like to ridicule having to acknowledge Kwanzaa and Hannukah.

So, it's not just DU.

[WildEyedLiberal]

131. Yep - bitter, angry people find a reason to shit on anything other people enjoy

There's not a whole lot of difference between ideologues on DU and free republic in terms of their general worldview - radicals for whom ideology comes first, middle, and last, and for whom nothing can ever be divorced from (insert terrible cause of all the evils in the world here), least of all seemingly innocent traditions or festivals. They are merely tools of the (evil opposition) trying to either whitewash "the truth" or destroy our precious way of life, depending on whether you're a lefty or a righty.

Just ignore the loud screeching ideologues. Your life will be easier.

[asteroid2003QQ47]

143. "Ignorance is Bliss"-- Ideologue For Ignorance.

Point me out the happy man and I will point you out either egotism, selfishness,
evil - or else an absolute ignorance.
--Graham Greene

[WildEyedLiberal]

187. Yes, wallow in your self-righteous misery

Because your bitterness and self-absorption is clearly helping solve the world's problems.

[slay]

132. If we ever arrest Bush and Cheney and make it a holiday I promise not to shit on it

Well... maybe just a little poo.. but nothing major. :P :P :P

Wonder if the current Native American tribe members, those few that remain, view our "Thanksgiving" the same way we do. <-- A well deserved shit on Thanksgiving IMO.

[Hissyspit]

134. A lot of people here have developed critical-thinking skills?

And some are not even from the same culture?

[asteroid2003QQ47]

146. Sadly, a lot more here of late are Group Thinkers and Validation Junkies. n/t

[LaurenG]

138. Happy Thanksgiving edwardsguy

I hope you have a great day that includes family and food. :hi:

[JANdad]

155. Thanks and the same to you and yours!

:toast:

[JANdad]

168. Thanks!

And right back atcha!

[asteroid2003QQ47]

145. Too many "American" Holidays are either directly of indirectly tied to...

Christianity/Protestant Work Ethic/Capitalism, or are a reaction to same.
If shitting on those special days makes me a 'Dipshit' in your eyes,
I will proudly wear it as a Badge of Honor.

Thank you, edwardsguy.

[Renew Deal]

151. Another bigot exposes himself.

Glad you exposed yourself to everyone. Now... Which American holidays are directly or indirectly tied to Christianity? Be specific.

[asteroid2003QQ47]

161. Ah, "Bigot," one more Badge of Honor from one who...

reinforces the Nin revelation, thank you.
I doubt the answer you request could be dumbed down enough
for you to comprehend given your need to ask the question.
----------------------------------------------

We don't see things as they are, we see things as we are.
--Anais Nin

[Renew Deal]

163. Right. So you're wrong.

You can't name a single american holiday. You're just fueled by hatred.

[asteroid2003QQ47]

177. You obviously can't see the forest for the trees so why...

would I waste my time.
----------------------

"I am patient with stupidity but not with those who are proud of it."
--Edith Sitwell

[Renew Deal]

148. There are a number of reasons.

Some people have sad lives. Some are contrarians. Some have mental problems. Some just don't like being here.

[melm00se]

149. Holidays

are what you make of them.

If you want to sit in a corner, fixate on all the bad things (past, present and future) and perform self-flagellation as some sort of deranged penance - please, be my guest...but do it fucking quietly!

You are interfering with the joy and unity of meeting up with friends and family...

[asteroid2003QQ47]

160. Every day is what you make of it!

I don't need church and state to tell me what days I can be joyful.
You impose your 'special' days on me and tell ME to STFU?
That in itself bespeaks volumes.

[Gwendolyn]

182. Lololz... no one is imposing a single thing on you!

If you don't want to be involved in the harvest feast, you're free to spend the day at work, visiting the paliative care unit at a local hospital, writing opinions on a message board, sitting around in your jammies with the curtains drawn... the list is endless. How egotistical to assume that the day people chow down on a turkey leg to give thanks for the earth that sustains us is all about you. :)

Weekends must be especially difficult for you since the highest, holliest holidays of the Jews and Christians arrive so often, each week in fact, and so many ignorant people, including atheists like me, enjoy them so immensely. Everyone is aware of the systematic violence and genocide resulting from the Abrahamic ideologies, yet STILL, people celebrate. I'm guessing you work through those as well, in protest of the state forcing religion upon us.

[ThomWV]

150. "Mother's Day" generally gets a pass when it comes to attracting pure bullshit

[ileus]

156. Does GW celebrate it? if so that's why...

[Puglover]

157. You must have just LOVED Jon Stewarts comment

on Thanksgiving. Something like, "I'm going to have a traditional Thanksgiving celebration this year! I'm going to invite my neighbors over for a huge feast and then kill them and steal their lands" Bet that got your knickers in a knot.

[eilen]

162. This is my favorite holiday because

it is not a gift giving holiday, there is no hype to shop for Thanksgiving except for maybe some groceries and I don't have to send out cards. It's focus is still on gratitude and spending it with people you care about. People tend to donate more food for the poor at this time. We focus on Plenty rather than Prosperity--where the focus is to share as we have plenty rather than just rewarding those who are prosperous. It is right before my other favorite holiday "Stop Shopping Day". Also, there is no great build up to Thanksgiving which makes it a special day, not anti-climactic like Christmas and Easter always seem to be. It is kind of like Independance Day with its emphasis on being happy, fun and sharing.

It is a bit sad for me this year because my husband is not home, he is done in Indiana and my siblings seem to all be doing "inlaw" Thanksgivings and my mom feels like she doesn't belong anywhere and she is too ill to travel to my house where she would feel "at home."

I am making a turkey breast, some green beans, a sweet potato, salad and picking up KFC for my son as he requested (he wants their potatoes). And I am making a small batch of sausage/cornbread dressing and will have some cranberry jelly. I am dieting so will forgo the mashed potatoes. I am making pumpkin fluff and bringing it to a friend's where we are invited for dessert. I am also going to make homemade eggnog for my son who thinks it is the nectar of the gods. I was going to buy some at the supermarket but they wanted $7.99 for 2 quarts. I just need to pick up some heavy cream. My son really puts it away-- he is 16 and still growing and is a bit underweight for his height.

[JANdad]

167. Thanks for the post!

Sounds like you have a great day planned! Have fun with your loved ones!

[Lorien]

170. Um, Independence Day, Martin Luther King day, Labor Day, Arbor Day,

Earth Day, President's Day...I think Thanksgiving is the ONLY American holiday that I've heard people-everywhere- criticize because it's based on a mythology. If you don't have any First American family members who were murdered by the U.S. government, then I guess that you have nothing to complain about. Since I have family members that grew up on reservations I hear the complaints and understand them. It's fine if you don't want to take any history into account and celebrate the Holiday for the sentiments that are meant to be expressed. I can understand that, too. But don't get pissy if there are some people who want us, as a people, to have some honest discussions about our history. If you don't acknowledge that a crime has been committed, then those who were victims of the crime can't begin to find closure.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

185. I Hear Ya.

Happy Thanksgiving to ya!

:toast:

[anonymous171]

189. MLK Day? Hopefully?

[Marrah_G]

191. Happy Thanksgiving Edwardsguy!

Some people aren't happy until everyone around them is miserable.

[LWolf]

193. Thinking aloud:

What are "american holidays" based on?

To start with, what american holidays are not corporatized, corrupting whatever the original purpose was? Christmas? Halloween? Valentines Day? Mothers'/Fathers/Grandparents' Day? Thanksgiving? Easter? St. Pat's?

Secondly, how many American holidays are part of the perpetual religious wars? Halloween, Easter, and Christmas at least. St. Pat's, too, if you look far enough back.

Next, how many american holidays are about patriotic pro-war propaganda?

When you go through that list, what american holidays are left?

What is the real purpose of a "national holiday?"

I would suggest that many of the biggest holidays aren't "american." They are corporate and/or religious, seasonal, and global, celebrated a little differently in many cultures, and they existed before the U.S. did.

So what ARE american holidays? Columbus Day, Labor Day, Veteran's Day, Memorial Day? MLK and president's days. 4th of July. I'm only counting national holidays that get people "days off;" Does ANYONE get Columbus Day? We can probably leave that one out.

Thanksgiving is not an "American" holiday, pilgrim myths not withstanding. Canadians, the "other" americans, lol, have their own thanksgiving day, and harvest feasts are not exactly a uniquely american tradition.

What do people do to celebrate these "American" holidays? A small fraction of the population actually commemorates veterans, or the civil rights movement, or whatever the holiday is supposed to stand for. The rest? Some work through it, some enjoy an extra day off for their lives, not for remembrance or celebration of anything.

July 4th; independence day. We celebrate with parades, patriotic music, and fireworks symbolizing bombs and war. That's okay, especially for those who actually are patriotic. I wish we focused that day on honoring the constitution, instead, but at least most americans actually participate on that day.

What is it that's bugging you? That you like the cultural celebrations, and want to enjoy them without looking beneath the veneer? That you are a patriot, and non-patriotic sentiment makes you angry or uncomfortable? What?

I think you ought to enjoy your holidays, and accept that, in a culture of freedom, not everyone will join you or agree.

Just thinking aloud after reading your OP.