Why not legislation prohibiting those 4 AM Black Friday Bait-And-Switch sales...

[Junkdrawer]

This is a classic "We have to because our competitors will if we don't" situation.

Make it 8:00 AM and prohibit the "limited quantity - 50% off regular prices" bait that causes the stampedes.

I'm thinking a lot of retailers would love to stop the insanity if they were assured their competitors would also stop.

I know retail workers would.

[Dis Pater]

1. I think any attempt at selling items below regular prices should be curtailed.

It just causes too much trouble.

[Junkdrawer]

2. I remember when Bait-and-Switch was made illegal and laws were enforced...

It's long past due to crack down again....

[exboyfil]

4. Make rain checks mandatory

If it is advertised, then a raincheck must be issued.

[Junkdrawer]

7. Not a bad idea...n/t

[tabbycat31]

45. one problem with rainchecks

the problem with making them mandatory is that many items advertised are seasonal items with a limited quantity. I worked retail for years, and we always would be happy to issue a raincheck for an item that we carried regularly, but if it was a seasonal item (ie a Christmas tree) we couldn't issue a raincheck since we would not know if we would get the item in again.

[exboyfil]

52. Then store credit for the difference

in regularly advertised price and sale price

[Dis Pater]

6. All 2 for 1's need to go, this whole idea of discounting is harmful

People just get so revved up.

[Junkdrawer]

8. Discounting is one thing....bait and switch is another n/t

[Dis Pater]

14. bait and switch=murder

[libnnc]

16. oh so

you're just being a dick on purpose.

Gotcha.

[Junkdrawer]

17. Actually, in the case of Valley Stream, N.Y. it seems to be a factor in a homicide...n/t

Probably negligent homicide.

[libnnc]

15. do you know what 'bait and switch' means?

Advertising that you have shit for ridiculously low prices--but YOU ONLY HAVE 1 OF THE PRODUCT THAT YOU'VE ADVERTISED...THEREBY CREATING A FRENZY AT THE DOORS.

[libnnc]

67. Bye bye dickhead.

:hi:

[Junkdrawer]

3. In fact, we may be able to simply augment and enforce existing laws....

The bait and switch is a fraudulent sales tactic that is punishable by US law, as false advertising. Though the law forbids the bait and switch, it is commonly used, and one can find examples of it in virtually any advertising circular for major department stores, electronics and computer stores, and automobile retailers. The purpose of the bait and switch tactic is to get customers to visit a store or business by advertising very low prices. Once the customer is in the store, the salespeople attempt to offer the customer items at higher prices.

The bait and switch begins with the bait, an advertisement for a product at what seems like an extremely low price. Sometimes these products, such as a mattress, are of very low quality. Other times, the price may apply to one specific style of, or model of an item. In general, the bait is stocked in very low numbers. In some cases, only one or two of items are available at the low price.

Once the customer has walked into the retail establishment, the bait and switch moves to the switch. The salesperson will inform the customer that the store has sold out of the advertised item and offer a similar item at a higher price. Alternately the salesperson may push hard to be certain the customer understands that the lower-priced product is of inferior quality, and try to sell a better quality product at a higher price. Bait and switch may also be used to bring in customers with bait, low prices, and also raise prices of unrelated items that customers might also pick up at the time.

To avoid prosecution for bait and switch tactics, advertisements frequently place in small print that the store does not allow rain checks, or that the item is limited to the quantity in the store. Reading the fine print of an advertisement can often alert customers that the advertisement is clearly employing a bait and switch tactic. In auto sales, one will often see a new car, priced below high blue book. The customer should be aware the price refers not to all cars of this type in the auto retailer’s inventory, but usually to one car, which is quickly sold.


....

http://www.wisegeek.com/what-is-a-bait-and-switch.htm

[ThoughtCriminal]

5. FTC should step in

If it was a food retailer, it would violate FTC rules. But even for non-food retailers, the practice could be considered deceptive advertising:

http://www.ftc.gov/bcp/edu/pubs/business/adv/bus35.shtm

"According to the FTC’s Retail Food Store Rule, grocers must offer rainchecks or product substitutes of comparable value when they run out of advertised items. They also can comply by ordering quantities of the item sufficient to meet reasonably anticipated demand or by disclosing in ads that items are available only in limited quantities or only at some stores. Although the specific terms of the Rule apply only to retail food stores, other companies advertising products available in limited quantity or only at some stores may want to make similar disclosures to reduce the risk of deception. For more information, ask the FTC for a copy of Retail Food Store Advertising and Marketing Practices."

The catch-all fine print in the ads: "While supplies last" and "limited quantities" are probably how they avoid the FTC. But none of the ads that I saw last week mentioned the specific quantity at each store. I don't think that many of those 4 AM campers would be there if they knew that the limited quantity was "five".

[Dis Pater]

9. The National Guard needs to be called in

All stores that have advertising that entices customers should have patrols set up.

[Junkdrawer]

10. Offering a lot of light, I see....n/t

[blondeatlast]

49. In another thread, it sees no harm in TEMPORARY workers carrying keys to

the doors of retail stores.

Just here to cause trouble as stupidly, ill-informedly as possible...

I don't need the "ignore" function to ignore it.

[libnnc]

12. missing the point on purpose?

or just posting drunk?

[Dis Pater]

18. What's the point I'm missing?

That legislation outlawing marketing promotions will save lives?

Black Friday sales starting at 4 in the morning have been going on for years, at thousands upon thousands of retail establishments across the US. One tragic death gets blamed on the fine print in a newspaper ad and everybody loses their minds.

[libnnc]

21. It is irresponsible retailing

It creates frenzied situations just like this. This isn't the first time Walmart has done this. They know how dangerous these sales are. They are 100 percent responsible for what happened to the deceased.

[Dis Pater]

25. That's what I said, discounting is dangerous.

People see prices below normal, they go into frenzies.

[libnnc]

29. creating situations like this WITHOUT THE PROPER SECURITY IN PLACE

idiot

[tblue37]

30. The National Guard, or at least an awful lot of NG units, are in Iraq, on their third tour of duty.

[Dis Pater]

37. And then they will be shipped to the front lines in Afghanistan.

[gravity]

11. It would be hard to enforce

There is nothing wrong with selling something at a discount, even 50% off. There will always be a way to get around the rules, unless you don't allow anything to be sold at a discount.

I think there are other ways to avoid the stampedes like set up a lottery if there are too many people going after one item. Opening up the doors and allowing the first person who runs to the back to win is just asking for trouble.

[Junkdrawer]

13. Again: I remember when bait-and-switch laws were enforced....

The practice stopped, then enforcement became lax and now it's back.

We can stop this if we want.

[gravity]

20. How do you distinguish between a discount and bait in switch tactics?

Blatant bait-and-switch tactics can be avoided, but you can get around the more subtle ones easily.

Many stores have big discounts to liquidate limited quantities of merchandise that they couldn't sell before. A store like Wal-Mart can just set up their discounts in a similar fashion, getting around any regulations.

[Junkdrawer]

23. Evidence is gathered, charges are filed and a jury decides....

Soon, the practice is avoided....until enforcement becomes lax again.

[gravity]

35. You have to have explicit regulations

We have to follow the rule of law, and convictions can't just be based off of someone's opinion.

Bait-and-switch has to be clearly defined in law, and I am afraid no matter what it is, there will always be a way around it unless you ban all discounts for merchandise.

[Junkdrawer]

36. Look...I've seen it done, It worked. Then we got into the Reagan Era...

deregulation, lax enforcement mind set and it made a return.

Now you throw some fine print on the bottom of the page and DAs throw up their hands.

[gravity]

39. And we got to return to the mindset of the rule of law

The fine print legally allowed Wal-Mart from being in accordance to the bait-and-switch by laws. You can change the laws and make the print bigger, but its advertising would still be legal.

[Junkdrawer]

42. The pendulum has swung away from consumer protection and as far as possible...

toward laissez-faire capitalism.

Time for a change.

[Dis Pater]

43. Yes, but it was the consumers who trampled the Murder Mart worker.

[libnnc]

44. and had the store had the security in place to make everyone line up in single file

and enter in an orderly fashion like most other stores do, THIS WOULD NEVER HAVE HAPPENED.

But instead of understanding that point it's easier to make dickheaded anonymous remarks on a message board, right?

[Dis Pater]

46. Ok, so your idea is to legislate that stores having sales should have security hired and

require that all people must line up and enter said store in single file?

[libnnc]

47. I'm sure you have a problem with fire marshal regulations too

:eyes:

[Dis Pater]

50. Only if a fire brigade has to be on premises when the 10% off signs go up.

[libnnc]

51. pretty dumb post

and a pretty dumb argument

enjoy your stay

[charlie]

26. Bait and switch

Antitrust

Usurious interest lending

The closer we get to the nirvana unregulated marketeers have promised, the more the country looks like a failed state.

[Junkdrawer]

32. When you don't enforce the laws, history repeats...

I agree. It's The Gilded Age again, with a vengeance.

[dysfunctional press]

70. but those sales are not technically "bait-and-switch"...

they advertise a limited number, and they have a limited number, and everyone knows they have a limited number- but they don't have sales people specifically trying to switch people over to a more expensive model, because there generally aren't salespeople on the sales floor.

[Midlodemocrat]

19. Instead of that. How about a national campaign shaming people from

trampling their neighbors?

You will never get stores to comply with your idea, but maybe people can be shamed into not participating.

[Dis Pater]

22. I can imagine some very well produced PSA's

with subtle hints that trampling others is bad would be helpful.

[Midlodemocrat]

24. And then the practice of door buster sales would go away.

People would stay away in droves out of both fear and shame.

[Dis Pater]

27. People would be ashamed to even stand in line for anything.

It would be awesome.

[Midlodemocrat]

31. I have no problem with people standing in line. It's a necessary evil.

It's more the manner with which this group broke the line and charged the doors.

For what? Something they didn't need anyway and more than likely weren't going to get?

I remember going to the malls on Black Friday with my mom when I was a kid. There was a sense of Holiday spirit, the decorations were lovely and yes, there were sales, but nothing that would have gotten any of us out of bed in CT at 4AM to line up outside a store.

It's insane.

[Dis Pater]

38. Maybe we could start a campaign to educate people not to rip locked doors off their hinges

It could be done in a very sophisticated manner.

[Midlodemocrat]

40. Yeah, well okay. Now you're just being silly.

C ya.

[Dr. Strange]

58. Amazing that we need a campaign to shame people from trampling others.

*sigh*

[Scooter24]

28. Most retailers have a legal loophole.

If you read the fine print, and it's clear on almost all ads, it says "While Supplies Last" or "Limited Supply"

There's nothing wrong with discounting merchandise, even if it's at a substantial loss. Many retailers do this over the back-to-school season as well when they advertise crayons or paper for 5 cents. It gets them in the door which is what stores want. You buy a cheap laptop which costs the store money, but then they might also buy that laptop case which has a 40-50% margin. With the savings they might also pick up other things in the store as well.

And I doubt you will find any legislation telling a retailer when they can and cannot open their businesses.

[Midlodemocrat]

33. Every single store you will enter this season will have loss leaders.

To lure you into the store. Of course, said loss leaders will probably be sold out, but they've accomplished their goal; they got you there.

[Scooter24]

34. Hence they "while supplies last"

Most ads run weekly, I wouldn't expect a limited buy sale to last a full 7 days on popular items.

When an item is popular, it's going to sell out. If it's a "special buy" type thing, I wouldn't expect a buyer to buy quantities to continuously replenish.

[dysfunctional press]

71. that's why milk is traditionally in the back of the grocery store...

so that you have to go through the rest of the store to get it, and hopefully be tempted by other items.

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

41. Those deals that they offer with limited quantity are classic loss leaders. Those are items that

retailers sell for at loss in order to attract customers in the store. Most electronics garner very little profit and if they had special items at half off, they'd lose tons of money.

[pitohui]

48. oh for the love of pete!

way to go, take away a little chance for the little guy to get something at a discount and have a little fun while doing it

yes, that walmart was BAD and should have had adequate crowd control

my walmart always has a very visible police presence and i don't think we should be deprived of our discounts forever because of something that happened in a less well managed store

it is not "bait and switch" if the ad clearly lists what time the store will open and how many items will be offered and whether or not there will be rainchecks...our local stores revealed all this upfront then you decide as an adult whether to attend

i don't attend but why should i take away the game from somebody else just because i don't wanna play?

[Junkdrawer]

54. Yeah...next thing I'll be railing about how Lotteries target poor people...

the other "little chance for the little guy to get something"...

It's a despicable, dangerous scam to get people into the store with a more-often-than-not broken promise of something for next to nothing.

[Dis Pater]

55. Same thing on the dollar menus at McDonalds.

Encouraging and celebrating obesity when they could just as easily only sell salads.

[Obamanaut]

64. I stopped in at a fast food place for coffee this morning. At the

table next to me was a group of four - two elderly people about my age and two boys about the age of 10 - 12, probably grandchildren. The boys were having the sausage biscuits with a side of potato thingys, perhaps 1,000 calories total. They were both chubby to the point that they had dimples in the knuckles on their fingers, huge rolls of belly, and double chins.

There were no press gangs forcing people to come in, the restaurant was not forcing them to order unhealthy items (they are there, but no one forces them upon the customers) and no one compelled the grandparents (?) to bring the kids in and continue with the same unhealthy diets they are probably used to.

Stores will sell the shit that people will buy. It's that simple.

[dflprincess]

65. Stores generally don't advertise how many of a particular item is in stock

Yesterday a DUer who used to work at Walmart posted a thread in which s/he said that a couple years ago when Walmart was advertising a $400 "door buster" laptop on Black Friday, the store this person worked at only had like 5 in stock.

I think a store that lets hundreds of people stand in line for hours when the management knows that maybe the first 5 in line may get some of the real bargains is indeed running a bait and switch operation and is hardly giving the "little guy" any kind of a chance at all.

And, frankly, I don't care to shop somewhere where a police presence in necessary.

[AZBlue]

53. Most aren't technically bait and switch.

Problem is that if you have even just a couple of the advertised items available for sale, it's not called bait and switch. The law requires "a sufficient supply" of the item, but doesn't specify what that is.

A big step would be to require stores to print right in the ad how many they have per store. Instead of being allowed to say "quantities limited" they should be required to say "minimum of 5 per store" or "approximately 5 per store." That would give people a much more realistic view of their chances of actually purchasing that item at that price.

Stores should also be required to hand out numbers to guests in line starting 6-12 hours before they open and only allow a certain number of people in the store at one time. Yes, that will add to their payroll slightly, but as we saw yesterday, it may save lives. They should also have to hire off-duty police or companies that do that for a living (like at large public events and concerts) for crowd control.

[Bluebear]

56. Idea: No "limited quantities per store", Compel them to issue rain checks & restore some sanity

[Dis Pater]

57. Or legislate that they always have enough in stock for everyone who wants it.

There should be a penalty for running out of stock.

[Obamanaut]

59. So if a store has say, 20,000 sku items on its inventory list, and there

are 25,000 people in the small town - you propose that the store carry 25,000 of all 20,000 items because 'everyone might want one?'

[DireStrike]

60. No

He doesn't care for rational arguments. Check the rest of his posts in this thread.

Any attempt to deal with the situation is equivalent to outlawing discounts, in his eyes. Or so he would have us believe.

[libnnc]

62. disingenuous crap in thread after thread

tick-tock ;-)

[Dis Pater]

63. Hey, look, a post without caplocks or namecalling.

You are to be commended.

[libnnc]

68. Hey look, a freeptard with a big granite cookie!

Will wonders never cease.

[Dis Pater]

61. If that's what it takes. If it could save just one life, it would be worth it.

[Norwood]

66. Not a good idea

Legislating in response to a tragedy such as this would set a disturbing precedent. Black Friday is always pretty crazy and what happened to the walmart employee is a tragedy, but its still just one incedent. Its incredibly irresponsible to create new laws in response to a single tragedy. This can be prevented without making any new law. Make it a lottery, advertise honestly, keep big discount items behind the counter to prevent people rushing in. There are plenty of ways to do it.

[flvegan]

69. How about a limited quantities legislation.

You can't advertise a "door-buster" unless you have x in stock in each store. If you only have 10 of an item you advertise as a door-buster, you can't advertise it douchebag.