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OhioChick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-02-08 11:47 PM
Original message
Democrats may tax health benefits
Someone just posted this on a thread in LBN, I was shocked....anyone hear about this?

Democrats may tax health benefits
They discuss exclusion limit for wealthier


December 1, 2008

WASHINGTON - In the last month of the presidential campaign, it was one of Barack Obama and Joe Biden's strongest attack lines: John McCain, they warned, would "tax your healthcare benefits for the first time ever."

But now, some Congressional Democrats in charge of health reform are talking about doing just that.

They would not go as far as McCain, who wanted to end the tax exclusion entirely for employer-sponsored insurance, which excludes money spent by employees and their employers on health benefits from income and payroll taxes.

But some key Democrats are talking about limiting the benefit for workers, so that those with higher incomes or more generous health benefits might pay taxes on some portion of the income they use to pay for their health premiums.

The issue is just one in an unfolding discussion of how to overhaul the nation's healthcare system, a goal Obama has said will be an urgent priority when he takes office Jan. 20. The political climate appears right for dramatic changes that could affect millions of families, and interest groups are moving fast to position themselves.

McCain wanted to get rid of the employer tax exclusion and in its place give people tax credits they could use to buy their own health insurance independent of their employers.

Democrats have a very different approach to health reform, but some of them also want to limit the exclusion - not least because the benefit costs the government more than $300 billion a year in potential tax revenues, so it is one of the few large pools of cash available to help fund a major health reform package at a time when money is scarce.

Senator Max Baucus of Montana, chairman of the Senate Finance Committee, recently issued an 89-page health policy paper that many see as an important Democratic blueprint for health reform. His paper raises the possibility of capping tax breaks for health insurance premiums based on income, value of health benefits, or both.

Baucus said Obama's and Biden's relentless campaign rhetoric against McCain for being willing to "tax insurance" did not mean the benefit was off-limits in the reform process. "We're not going to eliminate the exclusion, but we're certainly going to discuss it," said Baucus. "The campaign is over. Barack Obama is our president; we have a majority in the House and a Democratic majority in the Senate. But the goal is to work together. I think we're going to have to use some of Senator McCain's suggestions in order to get an agreed-upon result."

But Democrats could face serious political challenges if they try to scale back the benefit. Unions that are deeply invested in the employer-based system are wary of any changes since employers provide insurance to the vast majority of their members. Business groups are also extremely cautious. And after Obama and Biden so clearly campaigned against "taxing healthcare," Democrats could leave themselves vulnerable to accusations of hypocrisy.Continued...

"Once the issue was delineated in the campaign, it's hard to go back because people will remind you that the standard-bearer of the party took a position on this issue," said Robert Blendon, a professor of health policy and political analysis at the Harvard School of Public Health.

"That's one of the things that has to be taken into consideration," said Senator Kent Conrad, a Democrat from North Dakota and chairman of the Senate Budget Committee.

There are a number of arguments for limiting the exclusion, as Baucus noted in his proposal. Some economists believe it encourages people to use too much healthcare because it lets them buy an unlimited amount of healthcare tax-free.

The exclusion is also regressive because it gives bigger breaks to those in higher tax brackets - which means those who can afford the best healthcare get the largest tax benefit, rather than those who need government's help the most.

A 2004 study found that tax breaks on health benefits averaged $2,780 for families with incomes of $100,000 or more, but $102 for those with $10,000 or less, wrote Jonathan Oberlander, a professor of political science and health policy at the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill, in a recent article in Health Affairs.

Limiting the amount of healthcare premiums that can be excluded from taxable income to $4,000 for individuals and $11,000 for families would generate $1 trillion over the next decade, Oberlander wrote, citing a 2007 report by the Congressional Budget Office. That's roughly the cost of the health reform plan Obama put out in the campaign, according to a recent assessment by PricewaterhouseCoopers.

But even a cap of that size would mean that many middle-class people would suddenly have to pay taxes on some of the income they now use to pay health premiums - the average cost of employer-based health benefits is about $4,700 for single coverage and nearly $12,700 for family plans.

"The problem is a political one," said Oberlander. "What middle-class Americans think about when they think about health reform is not a proposal to tax their health insurance. It's just a difficult sell."

Helen Darling, president of the National Business Group on Health, a nonprofit that represents the perspective of large employers on healthcare issues, said her members would oppose any dramatic changes in the tax treatment of employer-sponsored insurance.

"If you were starting from scratch 40 years ago, a cap wouldn't have been a bad idea, but we have a system already in place," she said. "A very significant number of people in the country will have their benefits taxed at the very time they can't afford another financial hit."

She also noted that a cap would hit Boston-area residents particularly hard since the cost of healthcare is much higher in Massachusetts than it is in most of the rest of the country.

Yet competing political pressures make the idea difficult to dismiss. There is an unprecedented demand for a major health reform package among business groups, health insurers, unions, and liberal advocacy groups, and Obama has promised to deliver one.

The escalating deficit and the recession will make it hard to afford. And a growing number of moderate Democrats in Congress whose support will be needed to pass a plan will be reluctant to support expensive new benefits without a funding source.

More: http://www.boston.com/news/nation/articles/2008/12/01/democrats_may_tax_health_benefits/

:wtf:
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liberalhistorian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-02-08 11:49 PM
Response to Original message
1. HELL. FUCKING. NO.
NO. FUCKING. WAY.

Hey Dems, have I made it clear? Unbefuckinglievable.
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Veritas_et_Aequitas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-02-08 11:50 PM
Response to Original message
2. Wonderful. Just wonderful.
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-02-08 11:51 PM
Response to Original message
3. Bad idea -- We need to remove age restrictions from Medicare --!!!
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Mojorabbit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-02-08 11:52 PM
Response to Original message
4. Oh for cripes sake. nt
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FrenchieCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-02-08 11:55 PM
Response to Original message
5. Sounds like Baucus is talking shit......
Edited on Tue Dec-02-08 11:58 PM by FrenchieCat
and the title of your thread headline should most likely have included the subheadline as included in the text...."exclusion limit for wealthier". It would fit, you know. :)

Otherwise, the reactionaries at DU are going to talk shit about the Democrats (as though Baucus represents them all)....half without even actually reading the article. :eyes:

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OhioChick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-02-08 11:59 PM
Response to Reply #5
7. I always try to follow the rules as in LBN
Edited on Wed Dec-03-08 12:00 AM by OhioChick
That's why I put the original title: "Democrats may tax health benefits." However, I did highlight what you suggested in the message.

Hopefully, people will take the time to read over the entire article. :)
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FrenchieCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-03-08 12:09 AM
Response to Reply #7
9. You flatter DU if you think all of the folks are going to read the entire thing....
understand who is saying what, and then make a reasoned comments.

Instead, you will get a lot of "Hell No! They must be fucking crazy!".
I see some of it posted already.

That's why the Boston Globe headline writer wrote it as he/she did.
They know exactly how to get the intended reactions that they want.

There was also a Politico piece on Single Payer Health vs. Public/Private Universal Health coincidently that also came out today.....with the headline, "New fault line forms in health care fight" referencing a "new" debate on the issue. Of course, it isn't new at all.....but of course, they want us arguing.

It is all quite Predictable. The old divide and conquer so nothing at all gets done.
Here is that article: http://www.politico.com/news/stories/1208/16092.html

They know health Care reform is coming, and they will do whatever it takes to stop it
or at least slow it down.
They will start by separating those of us who want health care reform.
If they can keep us bickering with each other long enough, it will make things that much more difficult.
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OhioChick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-03-08 12:11 AM
Response to Reply #9
10. I usually read the full article before commenting....
I thought that most did.....sorry. :hide:
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mymessageboardid Donating Member (173 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-02-08 11:55 PM
Response to Original message
6. Democratic Party = Republican Party
Yes, I AM starting to believe it. Going back on the promise to roll back Bush's tax cuts for the rich. Now this??? SERIOUSLY, WHAT THE FUCK IS GOING ON HERE???????????????


:grr: :grr: :grr: :grr: :grr: :grr: :grr: :grr: :grr: :grr: :grr: :grr: :grr: :grr: :grr: :grr: :grr: :grr: :grr: :grr: :grr: :grr: :grr: :grr: :grr: :grr: :grr: :grr: :grr: :grr: :grr: :grr: :grr: :grr:
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FrenchieCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-03-08 01:43 AM
Response to Reply #6
24. The promise was not taxing the rich, it was providing tax cuts to the middle class.....
the method to pay for it was to roll back the Bush tax cuts. Currently, the Middle Class tax cut will be part of the stimulus package, and it is easier to allow the Bush tax cuts to expire at this point.

In addition, you are not really reading the article, or else you'd have some questions in reference to it. It is stating that it would tax health benefits of the upper income earners (but this is not Obama's plan....but I guess you wouldn't know that if you didn't read the article)...which is what you are upset about when you say that Obama is going back on his promise to roll back Bush's tax cuts on the rich (which again was not the promise...but the way to pay for the promise of middle class tax cuts).

Some folks just enjoy being pissed I guess. After 8 years of being pissed and right, I guess it's easy to be pissed and wrong. :shrug:
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razors edge Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-03-08 12:08 AM
Response to Original message
8. Think about it folks.
Government can't fund itself off income taxes when jobs are declining. You can't get elected promising to raise taxes on the very people who are loosing their jobs.

They never said they wouldn't raise taxes in areas other than income. I'm sure there are many other places that they can and will raise taxes that weren't discussed in the general election. Did our crack media ever ask that question directly?

The only thing guaranteed in life is change, now we will get it.

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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-03-08 12:15 AM
Response to Original message
11. Baucus and other blue dogs are pro corps et al
no surprise here.

Reality is that we need a single payer health care system and to gut the insurance companies, and we even have a model for it, but for blue dogs and republicans this is anathema
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Trillo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-03-08 12:24 AM
Response to Original message
12. Taxing health benefits would certainly give government an interest
in inflating health care costs.

More costly healthcare = increasing insurance premiums ⇒ increasing tax revenues (over the years)
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Azlady Donating Member (889 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-03-08 12:49 AM
Response to Original message
13. Damn it... just Damn it n/t
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wroberts189 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-03-08 12:50 AM
Response to Original message
14. Ok so how would this help again? Making it more expensive?? n/t
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SammyWinstonJack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-03-08 12:55 AM
Response to Original message
15. Change we can believe in?
:shrug: Candidate Edwards challenged Congress to either adopt his health care plan within six months or lose theirs! But we couldn't have him, because we had to have an "historic" election! Nice! x(
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FrenchieCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-03-08 02:02 AM
Response to Reply #15
29. This article has nothing to do with Obama......and
your Candidate Edwards would have lost for sure. Not only for what he did in his private life, but for the fact that he was also involved in an Hedge Fund both via investments and working for them! The GOP would have loved that during this economic disaster. Hedge Funds are dirty in the collapse that we have seen.

John Edwards was simply not destined to be President, and you attempting to trash Obama via you misreading this article is a no go.

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Horse with no Name Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-03-08 04:41 AM
Response to Reply #15
34. Well oddly enough
Nothing really incenses me about the things that are happening. Nothing has surprised me one bit. I guess that is a good thing.I'm not sure how to take it.:shrug:
I miss Edwards too. After he left the campaign, the reality was set in stone. We were going to get pretty much status quo with either candidate regardless of who got the Democratic nomination. I have no expectations that ANY bones will be thrown to the progressive community.
That is OUR reward for being loyal. One of these days we will learn. If it's not too late.
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Kalyke Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-03-08 10:56 AM
Response to Reply #15
36. Some of us didn't want Edwards because we found him more phony
than the other phonies.

:shrug:

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karynnj Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-03-08 12:20 PM
Response to Reply #15
38. You do know that Edwards could not have done that
It was pure demagoguery that he said he would do something he knew that, even as President, he wouldn't have the power to do. It was actually one of the worst things he did.

P.S. It was not "just" that he wasn't black or female that kept him from winning - the fact that he was the only white male the media let into the final three would have helped a stronger white male candidate. Not to mention - the Rielle Hunter stuff would have exploded in our face. (It MIGHT have made McCain a strong enough favorite that he wouldn't have picked Palin even.
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sam sarrha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-03-08 12:59 AM
Response to Original message
16. THIS IS BULLSHIT PROPAGANDA.. OR AN ONION ARTICLE
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firedupdem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-03-08 01:02 AM
Response to Original message
17. Bullshit...I'm not falling for it. I don't believe that Obama and the
rest of the dems will tax health care. I think this article is off base and not true. I don't care what one person said...until I hear from the horses mouth I call this info bullshit. He's still putting people in place...I doubt very seriously that within 3 weeks we're implementing McCain's plan to tax health benefits. Garbage!
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Fumesucker Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-03-08 01:10 AM
Response to Original message
18. Read between the lines...
The obvious implication of taxing healthcare benefits is that there will be no single payer system.

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FrenchieCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-03-08 01:35 AM
Response to Reply #18
21. No Politician ran on a platform that included Single Payer Health Care....
But please, read this, and understand why these "curious" articles are coming out all of the sudden!

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x7947331
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-03-08 01:38 AM
Response to Reply #21
23. Further connecting of dots
Some in industry (did you say GM, Ford, CHrysler and a few others) are now all in favor of National Single Payer health care... since it will ahem... make us competitive (it drops the price per unit in detroit between 1500 and 2000 dollars so they have a point)

And the people (per many surveys done over the years) want it

So they didn't run on it... but in the end they will do what they always do... FOLLOW the people

Why right now the RIGHT is getting their knives sharpened. They are correct, we get national health care, the GOP is looking at 40 years in the wilderness, best case
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FrenchieCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-03-08 01:50 AM
Response to Reply #23
25. Then we will end up with nothing......
I pay $1,100 per month just for health care, not counting $30 in co-pays each visit.
We need reform now. Single payer is not possible now because of the cost, and because
that is not what was discussed on the campaign trail, and trying to get it done now
will provide the GOP with a perfect excuse to stall and confuse everything.
Demanding what we won't get instead of what is doable is going to fuck things up.
Universal Health care can lead to Single Payer.....
but going for single Payer now will lead to nothing. I'm telling you.
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-03-08 01:54 AM
Response to Reply #25
26. Conditions are quickly approaching 1930s New Deal
level

None of those policies, chiefly the Social Security System, was possible in 1930

A very different story came in 1933 after inauguration... and the SS system was not even enacted until way after the first hundred days

The right is aware of this... and those who understand the course of US History understand this. We are approaching the kind of situation that allows for the kind of change that cannot be even considered, for political reasons, even six months before.

We do live in revolutionary times... the kind the right really is scared off.

and if we end up with nothing... there will be revolution in this country

Kennedy comes to mind.

Those who prevent peaceful revolution, assure the violent kind....


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FrenchieCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-03-08 01:59 AM
Response to Reply #26
27. Neither Kennedy or Obama will be offering up a single payer health care plan....
only a path to eventually getting to one.

And if we concentrate on the undoable, we will be right back to 1993...not 1933. :(

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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-03-08 02:01 AM
Response to Reply #27
28. Kennedy did not plan for it
but we are in revolutionary times

And THOSE WHO WORK inside the system will tell you... it is near collapse, and their "remedy" will not buy it more than a year or two, best case.

Those who are honest in the debate realize that there is something rotten in the system when our life expectancy and outcomes are under Canada's, and they spend half per person than we do.

It will come... by the way FDR did NOT run on the New Deal either

But I KNOW you knew that.
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FrenchieCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-03-08 02:08 AM
Response to Reply #28
30. FDR did not give us single Payer.....and you will not get it now.
We have to work our way to it....as there are too many industries that would be put out of business, and right now the economy cannot support it. There cannot be millions more put out of work. The tax base would evaporate, and government cannot afford what it would cost just to transition into a single payer plan at this time. It can be done, but only gradually. To think otherwise is not being a realist. You can have your revolution, all I want is my Universal Health care by the end of Obama's first term as he promised and I know that this is doable. That is the plan Ted Kennedy is working on.
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-03-08 02:15 AM
Response to Reply #30
31. No, he gave us the New Deal, which he did NOT run on
Try to keep up

Changes of that scope happen in times like the ones we are living in and soon the place for centrism, whatever that is, will be over... and you will see them rediscover that key to the middle class loyalty... which is liberal policies, enacted by people who are not flaming libs.

That is why Obama's cabinet has many echos to two crisis periods in US history... the Civil War, team of rivals and the bipartisan, right leaning cabinet of FDR circa 1933

Both had cover from the folks they appointed

Why Obama would not appoint Edwards... or Kucinich... but has appointed people with the street cred in the Street, not main-street

And why he's readying many a book on both FDR and Lincoln... no coincidence there, in fact

So I would not bet that when all is said and done we will not get single payer health care... or any other ahem, very liberal-progressive program

And that is history, and the patterns from it.

I know some centrists dread this as much as republicans, but this country is bout to take another predictable lurch to the left... as we always do after twenty five years or more under Republican rule.

Suffice it to say, FDR did not run on the New Deal, Obama did not run on Single Payer... and your point?
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FrenchieCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-03-08 02:24 AM
Response to Reply #31
32. I don't know why you are talking FDR.
The specific article at the op is meant to frighten folks and to undermine health care reform support in general.

This article is meant to divide those who do want Health Care reform: http://www.politico.com/news/stories/1208/16092.html

This is why these articles meant to confuse and divide are popping up: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x7947331

This is what the Obama Transition Team is doing currently: http://change.gov/newsroom/entry/join_the_discussion_daschles_healthcare_response/


I believe that we now need to agree to disagree at this point.
But I did enjoy the debate. :hi:
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-03-08 02:28 AM
Response to Reply #32
33. I'm talking patterns of history
blame the masters in it
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Dogmudgeon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-03-08 01:24 AM
Response to Original message
19. The problem with the article is ...
... everything in it is cherry-picked, except for the squibs from Max Baucus and Kent Conrad.

I'd put this under the heading of "run it up the flagpole and see who salutes it." It's a sly way of gaging public interest in health insurance reform, not necessarily testing out a new tax proposal.

I'd want to test public interest if I were Obama; the economic crisis has overshadowed health insurance, but comprehensive health insurance reform has to be part of the recovery package.

--p!
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FrenchieCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-03-08 01:37 AM
Response to Reply #19
22. The Obama Transition team have already started that.....
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BrklynLiberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-03-08 01:30 AM
Response to Original message
20. How and why are these two points tied together?
Edited on Wed Dec-03-08 01:32 AM by BrklynLiberal
Why do benefits for workers have to be limited in order for those with higher incomes/more generous health benefits to pay taxes on income they use to pay for health premiums?



But some key Democrats are talking about limiting the benefit for workers, so that those with higher incomes or more generous health benefits might pay taxes on some portion of the income they use to pay for their health premiums.



Is this just repuke propaganda to undermine support for health care reform?
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OhioChick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-03-08 10:52 AM
Response to Reply #20
35. Good Point. n/t
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Winterblues Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-03-08 11:26 AM
Response to Original message
37. benefit costs the government more than $300 billion a year
Isn't that the same amount we give huge corporations in tax subsidies with over four billion going to just one Corporation Exxon. But on the otherhand Exxon really needs it where as those lousy workers are just milking the system...
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MilesColtrane Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-03-08 01:28 PM
Response to Original message
39. This may be fiscally smart, and even somewhat fair,...
...but it's politically INSANE.

Democratic congresscritters shouldn't even think about this unless they want to be finished in D.C.
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