OK DU, show us how smart you really are, you want Rick Wagoner's head

[DainBramaged]

(of GM) who are you gong to replace him with? Take a shot, who in the WORLD has enough ability (and is available) to run GM.

Let's here it. SO so many of you are crying for his blood without having any knowledge of what running one of the biggest companies in the world EVER is like. Give it a shot. I'd like to hear what YOU the members of the DU community think..


DISCLAIMER

No prizes are being given away for your participation in this thread, just you participation is asked if you have an intelligent answer.

[Name removed]

1. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Recursion]

2. Well, I could do better than he has

So if nobody else is available I nominate myself.

[Name removed]

3. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Recursion]

7. I'm serious. I could avoid running a large company into the ground

He can't. I'll take the job.

[DainBramaged]

9. But you didn't say you could keep it from going over the cliff.

:rofl: :hi:

[The Straight Story]

4. Me

I would bet his salary and bonuses on it.

[DainBramaged]

6. Qualifications please

Saying "me too" is easy. And I'm sure fun at one AM in the morning. I asked for Q-U-A-L-I-F-I-E-D people who can run a HUGE company, not a cafeteria.

[The Straight Story]

12. managed data centers dealing with a trillion dollars a day in business

for the #2 bank, and I excelled in it. The trillion dollar figure was arrived at by taking into account all our business done through the systems we managed (stocks, mutual funds, credit cards - payments/etc, and so on).

Only reason I left was wife's health.

Things being what they are I feel I can get back into the field and manage a good crew of people (engineers in my past case) and lead them to success. A HS drop out with a GED I have led many senior people (ie, those with degrees/masters) and oversaw one of the largest system migrations in banking history (the migration of the B1/Chase core Data Center to two new regional ones).

I cared about the company and my crew and kicked ass and I could do it again because it was not about me but about those around me.

To roughly quote Nash - "Do what is best for yourself and others and everyone wins"

[DainBramaged]

13. How about 500,000 people, suppliers, Unions, Nations, dealers

(dealers are the worst, but they are your lifeblood). And one thing you need is the patience of ALL the Saints and a stone cold heart.

[The Straight Story]

27. I could handle it, especially if I can handle some of the posts here on DU

;)

[Dreamer Tatum]

29. A trillion dollars a day? Cough cough cough

Self-disqualified.

[The Straight Story]

67. yes - think transactions/money flow

buy/sell/pay CC/deposit/transfer from one acct to another/etc and so on. The same transaction can be counted more than once for example (because we are tracking flow from one system to another and it's cascading effects).

[tkmorris]

18. I hear you, BUT

I think a lot of people would say that Wagoner's stewardship of GM has been so poor that to equal it doesn't require a qualified person really. You could do as well with Click and Clack, or an orange traffic cone.

I am not ENTIRELY of the mindset above, but I do think that there are literally thousands of people capable of getting a job done there. You really don't need a one in a million candidate, or someone with an incredibly rare skillset. All you need is someone who won't freak out at the idea of running a company that large, and experience getting the most out of those who work for him/her. Throw in a good working knowledge of the industry, and for the love of Pete some marketing skills, and there you go. I am oversimplifying of course, but the idea that there is a small handful of people capable, or that Wagoner is doing alright considering the job just isn't cutting it for me.

[DainBramaged]

26. an orange traffic cone

WE HAVE A WINNER!!!!!

I spit my tea out, thank GOD I JUST bought a roll up spill proof keyboard for $10 at Staples.

[ContinentalOp]

36. Marketing is definitely the key here!

As so many people here have already pointed out, American cars are not as bad as they used to be, some get decent mileage, etc. but the old public perceptions still hold. The US automakers simply do not know how to market their product. It's not the fault of the designers, engineers, or assembly line workers. It's the people in charge that have no clear vision of their company's identity.

To be totally honest, this last couple of weeks discussions on DU have made me feel way more guilty about buying a foreign car than any Big 3 car commercial has. So why don't they use that as an angle? Why don't they try to appeal to our patriotism, without the stupid "big macho truck" angle? Why not market a union-made, environmentally friendly car to liberals? The fact that it doesn't have to be shipped halfway around the world should be a major environmental selling point. But this kind of thinking seems to be the furthest thing from their minds.

Then again, sales are obviously not even the problem as GM is still #2 worldwide right? So again, it's the bad management and bad investments into the financial industry that are causing their financial problems. If they really are facing financial problems and this isn't just a way to crush the union and scam the federal government for a bunch of cash.

[Jack Rabbit]

5. I have already expressed my view on this

GM should be turned over to its employees, whose input was neither sought nor welcomed by elitists who think only an Ivy League educated idiot can run a large corporation like GM (or Ford or Chrysler).

Let them select the new managers. They couldn't do a worse job than elitists like Wagoner. No one should be skeptical if the new CEO is an assembly line worker with a high school diploma. At least he'll start by asking, "what kind of car would I like to drive to work?" It would be affordable, not use a lot of gasoline, not emit a lot of pollution, sturdy, reliable and safe to drive. It wouldn't look a thing like an SUV.

[DainBramaged]

8. Best answer I'll hear today, thank you.

But UAW head Pulmyfinger has to go too. He has done a 100% shit job for the UAW, across the country. The failure and loss over Superior Axle was unforgivable.

[Recursion]

11. I'd like to see Gettelfinger go too

Wagoner should go because he's an ass, not because CEOs have some magic power to save or ruin companies.

This company was ruined from the middle; if there's going to be a purge that's where it should start. But unlike company officers, being a high level manager / low level executive requires actual skills that are difficult to find.

[BrklynLiberal]

10. Do you think Bill Gates would take the job?

He knows how to run a business. When it comes to the everyday nitty-gritty he will surround himself with people who know the details and pick their brains.

[DainBramaged]

15. He fucked up Windows, you want HIM running GM?

He made a VERY famous statement years ago. If Windows didn't crash twice a day, it wasn't running properly.

You want this guy running GM?

[BrklynLiberal]

33. I was thinking about how he ran Microsoft as a corporation. He

would have to bring in experts in the actual manufacturing of cars.
Perhaps Steve Jobs for marketing.

[DainBramaged]

37. Steve Jobs is the penultimate con man.

HE would be terrible for the auto industry, and how long would yo want to drive his products if you had to keep going back to the dealer for a patch?

[ContinentalOp]

48. You know as much about computers as I know about cars.

:P But seriously, you say "con man", I say "marketing genius." You're joke about "going back to the dealer for a patch" is pretty silly because it has nothing to do with the reality of the Mac OS and I don't even think that's a common stereotype. But anyway, the Big 3 clearly need figures like Jobs that can revitalize their image.

[DainBramaged]

54. I am systems administrator for our little patch of worker's paradise

Shows ya how much you know. And I wasn't talking about any Mac OS, I keep thinking about ME or Vista. (picture rasberries). My physical problems have dramatically limited my physical abilities. I get kids to carry LCD monitors now. Stuck in an office, most of my friends laid off or bought out. :P :P :P :P :P

[ContinentalOp]

57. So you're a sysadmin who belongs to the UAW? -nt-

[DainBramaged]

58. You bet, is there a problem? You think non-union works a Union shop?

[ContinentalOp]

60. Nope, I just thought you worked on the assembly line or something.

You're pretty lucky. You must be one of the few unionized sysadmins in the country.

[DainBramaged]

61. I'm still alive, (check you inbox) that's ALL that matters

They won't let me work the line now, but that doesn't mean I have to give up my membership if I don't retire.

You think we'd outsource the position? :rofl:

[Chisox08]

52. Yeah but he gets people coming back for more.

Yes Windows crashes daily but when the next Window OS comes out people will line up to buy just as the did with XP, Vista and other past iterations of Windows. So if he can get people to line up and buy GM cars it wouldn't hurt. Steve jobs would be my second choice.

[Romulox]

73. Ummm, Windows Vista is an unmitigated failure. Whose brains did he "pick" for that one? nt

[ColbertWatcher]

14. How about someone already working for the company who ISN'T a sociopath? n/t

[DainBramaged]

16. Well, being a sociopath IS a prerequisite for the industry

:hi: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

[ColbertWatcher]

20. Damn, well, I tried. n/t

[Recursion]

19. Does a company need a CEO?

If you have a competent board and CFO, what does a CEO bring to the table?

Put the company into receivership and elect a board representing the remaining shareholders, management, and labor. Let them elect a President from among themselves and get a good number cruncher as CFO.

[ColbertWatcher]

23. Who wil steal from the company if there isn't a sociopath at the top? n/t

[DainBramaged]

28. The sociopaths in the middle?

[ColbertWatcher]

30. Everyone knows the ones in the middle are the ones getting screwed. n/t

[DainBramaged]

32. Nah, the guys on the line who make the least will get screwed

They have no safety net, no parachute, no "contract with perks" to fall back on.

[ColbertWatcher]

63. True, but to clarify, there are no sociopaths in the middle.

Sociopaths always have to be on top.

[ContinentalOp]

17. These high profile answers are fun but I'd imagine the real answer is someone none of us...

have ever heard of. Maybe somebody from lower down in the ranks. Maybe the CEO of another, less glamorous corporation that we've never heard of. But this is the old, ridiculous, "well, I'd like to see you do better" defense. You can't criticize music if you're not yourself a professional musician or have an opinion on a movie if you're not a Hollywood director right? We certainly shouldn't have the GALL to criticize a corporate CEO! Heaven knows how we've all gotten away with such brazen criticism of our Commander in Chief here at DU over the past 8 years.

[DainBramaged]

21. I'd love to see some real answers. I thought the community at large would

make a contribution. So many here want to see GM fail, kick Rick Wagoner out, bust up the UAW, but no solutions.

I'd just like to see DU step up.

[ContinentalOp]

39. Nobody here wants to bust up the UAW, and it's insulting and disingenuous...

that you lump those three things together like that. As though the UAW depends on Rick Wagoner being the CEO. Hell, I'm not even totally convinced that the lack of a bailout would mean the end of GM, let alone the UAW.

[DainBramaged]

42. Well, MY singular focus on these boards right now is GM/UAW/Ford/UAW/Chrysler (not so much)

I think Cerebus tried to leverage Chrysler's assets way too late. I think Chrysler is done without a merger, which would wound the UAW terribly. But I see the hate for Labor here. Visit the labor forums. Crickets except for the same few people who steadfastly bolster the thread day after day. I see the comments how it's our fault, we make $70 an hour, the same meme the Rethugs are pushing in the media, Progressives who are supposed to be smart just acting dumb.

[tkmorris]

22. ^^Well said^^

[ColbertWatcher]

25. Actually it's a typical GOP tactic: the old "liberals have no ideas" bullshit. n/t

[DainBramaged]

31. I'm old but GOP I ain't, just curious after all of the bashing the last couple of weeks

It also is a way to get students to think outside of their sphere of "self".

[ColbertWatcher]

64. Didn't say you were GOP, just saying the tactic is. n/t

[On the Road]

24. There are Probably Better People

but none of us know who they are. It's certainly not Bill Gates or anyone on this forum.

More importantly, who gets to make the selection? Theoretically, the board of directors would be able to make this kind of decision, but I doubt they're any position to do so.

Not sure I want the government to make a decision like this. Maybe a receiver, but it would have to be the right person in that role. A strong new person in an emergency can make a lot happen quickly, but the wrong person can take the whole company down.

[haele]

34. The CEO of Costco, Jim Sinegal

Jim Norrad of Segway. Peter Darby of PG&E, even if he is an energy specialist. Richard Branson. Hell, bring Lee Iaccoa back.
You need people who are not only dedicated to the business and are good "management", but who are flexible enough to understand the need for innovation and the investment in a talented workforce often is more important than "the bottom line". Customers should be considered as important a stakeholder as the shareholder.
There are any number of upper mid-level management that can be brought up from within the company to lead it forward. What you don't want are people who view their company to be an ATM. Or any f***er who religiously reads Ayn Rand, thinking they "made it with their own bootstraps" or is a grad of the Chicago School of Business...




Haele

[DainBramaged]

40. My personal choice (didn't take long for someone to realize him)

Has kept Costco on top in spite of the calls by Wall Street to have him replaced because he was too empathetic with his workers and he was paying them too much.

FIVE TIMES the salary of his highest paid worker is his annual compensation.

[MazeRat7]

35. Gary C. Kelly - CEO Southwest Airlines.

Has the experience in dealing with a wide rage of customer, supplier, employee relations. Perhaps would consider the offer and "move up". Certainly comes from a culture that actually finds employees to be allies and part owners in the company.

Don't know, just a thought. He has taken over and continued to grow that business when others in his industry were struggling.

An idea anyway, I'm sure I could dig up a few others that have the chops as well, provided we are all in agreement that GM's business model is broken and new leadership considered must have exhibited excellence in changing the defacto model within an industry.

Peace,
MZr7


Edited to add his current title.

[DainBramaged]

41. GREAT choice too. But what happens to SW Airlines?

[MazeRat7]

46. He would be hard to replace....

I'll have to study on that. :shrug:

Peace,
MZr7

[blondeatlast]

133. I was thinking of the same. SWA is well-managed, profitable, and it's workers are

as loyal as it gets.

[TreasonousBastard]

38. No takers. It's easy to take potshots, but...

not so easy to solve a problem.

The stonethrowers have no idea what it's like to run the world's largest manufacturing operation, and refuse to admit that the hated Waggoner has made some pretty damn good cars. Or that he has the even more hated Lutz to thank for that.

Curiously, the stonethrowers love to complain about the Olds they had in 1984 but most can't even tell you what GM is making for '09.

[DainBramaged]

43. Thank you.

Can I adopt you?:hug:

[last1standing]

69. But that's the problem, no one can tell you waht GM is making for '09.

Who's fault is that, ours? Is it our responsibility to dig up information on GM's new car lineup or is it theirs to make sure we know about it. A major function of any corporation is effective advertising and GM has done an incredibly bad job at it for years.

And yes, I can speak with authority here having worked for their advertising company for years and still speaking with current employees daily. I saw back in 2001 how ineffective their advertising is but the company insisted that no exciting or innovative marketing be used. They were late to the Internet, they were late marketing to the young adult demographic and they were late in getting rid of brands that have become synonyms for "old". "Buick, Olds, pontiac...".

Now that GM is finally bringing out some cars that are interesting and new, it's their responsibility to make sure the market is aware of it. Get the Solstice and Corvette in some movies with cool characters, start a guerrilla campaign for the Volt, make a grand display of 'imploding' older brands while launching new ones with flair. These are the things that will make consumers sit up and take notice, but GM has violently crushed anything of this nature.

It's up to GM to make us want them, not the other way around.

[DainBramaged]

102. (sigh) Yes, all you have to do is click the link below

www.gm.com


And ALL of the products made will appear like magic on your screen. The 2009 product line up is set in stone, has been for amost two years.

[last1standing]

114. If you don't want to understand that GM needs better marketing, I can't force you.

You're pushing an agenda, not looking for reasonable discussion. Your little side comments prove that. As such, your posts are useless because no one here is going to make a difference for your desires.

If you decide you want to actually discuss issues instead of creating propaganda, let me know. I'd be glad to discuss this issue because it's very close to me.

[DainBramaged]

116. Marketing takes time, GM doesn't have time.

Here let me make it simpler. (Had to get tea).

Honda places a body in white in the woods surrounded by deer and owls, chipmunks, butterflies. The commercial text is that the bodies are double walled therefore safe. But what does the brain-dead consumer think? That Honda's are Eco-friendly therefore You NEED to buy a Honda to be Eco-friendly. Yet GM STARTED greening ALL of their plants and offices in 2004. Honda and Toyota and Subaru didn't start till 2007.


Marketing. It's what truth is all about. And America can't handle the truth.

[last1standing]

117. If GM doesn't have time to market then it will fail.

If congress can get off their asses and approve a loan structure that makes sense, then GM will have time to develop a marketing strategy that can work. The question is whether they will take the opportunity to do this or just use the money to float until they fail again.

GM is starting to make good products again - products that have the ability to capture the imagination and loyalty of the next generation. They need to play to that instead of just finding a new Tiger Woods and selling to the geriatric set.

[DainBramaged]

119. Going back to a couple of threads I started recently (polishes fingernails on shirt)

They need to drop a couple of divisions, GMC, Saturn, Saab, probably Pontiac. Saturn has ONLY 455 dealers around the country, not hard to cancel their franchises. Saab less than 300. And they NEED to take down the dealer structure. There are 50 GM dealers (and maybe 25-30 Ford and Chrysler dealers) for every 50 square miles in urban/metropolitan areas. There are only four Toyota four Honda, two Nissan, one Mazda.

Too many dealers, too few customers.

[last1standing]

123. I absolutely agree with that. Dealers are cannibalizing the market.

I live in the heart of Motor City and their is a dealership on nearly every corner, it seems. For awhile that was fine as there is no efficient form of mass transit in Michigan and everyone needs a car to survive. This meant that new cars were always needed, even in bad economies. Now it's different. With unemployment the highest it's been in my lifetime of 40 years, people are subsisting without vehicles because they just can't afford them or the gas needed to run them. Dealers just can't sell in this environment - at least not when there are so many. The credit crunch isn't helping, either.

And yes, lose some brands like Buick, Chevrolet and Pontiac. Newer, eye-catching models such as the Pontiac Solstice can be relaunched by other brands, preferably newly created ones. A successful company needs to reinvent itself on occasion and now is the time if GM wants to recapture the heart of America.

It would be a shame to see GM go under just as it has started, with baby steps, to move into the future.

[DainBramaged]

124. Chevy sells as many cars as Honda, Buick sell MANY more cars worldwide

than in America, TWICE as many in China (BIG is better there) and is the number one brand in China. GM is successful in England and Europe, where the tariffs are equal among ALL non-domestic industries, whereas the Japanese have ZERO advantage, MUST use Union labor, and are badly behind the European brands. Shows ya what happens when the Japanese REALLY have to compete.

[last1standing]

126. Once again, I agree.

However, in the U.S. market, Chevy and Buick are considered to be your grandfather's brand. It would be quite possible for GM to keep those brands as foreign models and change the names here, just like other companies do.

[TreasonousBastard]

130. I can't think of any car maker advertising its full line...

particularly the lower end of the market. Seen many Fit ads? Yaris? On TV they advertise sex, fun, status and all sorts of good stuff.

GM has had print ads showing off its cheap, gas sipping econoboxes, but the point is that if you are a car buyer, you have to do the research. Problem with the three US companies is that far too many buyers just don't bother to put them on the list.

GM shares several cars with Toyota, but I know people who will NEVER go into a Chevy or Pontiac showroom to look at the identical car to the one they buy for more money and higher service costs at the Toyota dealer. Same with Ford and Mazda.

[Ichingcarpenter]

44. Google Management could take this over

and be successful with it.

This is not rocket science and Wagoner and Lutz are not visionaries.

Sometimes I miss automotive geniuses like DeLorean

Look at Wagoner's and Lutz's resumes

Tell me? Besides climbing the corporate ladder what did they do or innovate?

[Dreamer Tatum]

45. The answer is pretty boring.

General Motors is one of the biggest entities on Earth. It has substantial business dealings
in every country of consequence on the planet. It manages far-flung and hopelessly complex
operations. It deals with the corporate law and tax policies of every country on the planet.
It has to market itself and compete every minute of every day. It has thousands of vendors.
The sun never, ever sets on the General Motors empire. The rollup of its operational structure
into the financial statements...Jesus.

The CEO of such a company does not manage any of the elements listed above. Instead, the CEO provides
vision and guidance to the people who manage the far-flung businesses. The people who manage GM's
business units PROBABLY have more complex jobs than CEOs of most Fortune 500 companies. A reasonable
comparison is General Electric, who went to an internal candidate when Jack Welch retired. It would
have been very difficult for an outsider to run GE. Even so, Lou Gerstner turned IBM around, but maybe
IBM has a simpler model than does GE.

I think GM would be best off going with an internal candidate, probably someone who's been groomed for the job
by the board. Rest assured that GM has a pretty deep succession plan, and at any time there are probably
20-30 people inside the business who could conceivably take over the reins. This is the worst time for an
outsider to take over, because the government is likely to have quite a lot of oversight. A new person
would be the blind leading the blind.

Just my .02



ps - the time of a Fortune 10 CEO is valuable enough to fly on an airplane.

[DainBramaged]

49. Well said, thanks (time is money) and why is Booshe allowed to fly at our expense?

[ContinentalOp]

50. Exactly. None of us probably know his or her name. -nt-

[MazeRat7]

51. That is a really good point...

My only concern that anybody "within" the culture that the board would approve, may not be able to see "outside" the culture and find the ideas or courage to move in a different direction. If they keep doing what their doing, they are not going to be around much longer.

Peace,
MZr7

[gravity]

62. You are on the right track

The only problem I can see is that it seems like GM's problems come from the excessive bureaucracy of such a large organization. The people in the upper management positions have been groomed in the same matter Rick Wagoner was.

I think in outsider can bring some fresh ideas an some innovation to the company. Knowing about the operations of the company is important, but it is even more important for someone who understands the auto industry in general to provide the vision for the company to grow. Other upper managers can help out with the operations.

[Chisox08]

47. I could run GM better than Rick Wagoner

I for one know that for every worker that you lay off you just lost a potential customer. I know enough to pay my employees enough so that they will be able to buy my products.

[gravity]

53. I don't know if someone else would be much better than Rick Wagoner

It seems like no matter who ran GM, there would be lots of problems.

A lot of GM problems come from decades of mismanagement and Wagoner bears some of the blame. Getting this company our of the hole will be quite difficult when faced with the high legacy costs, poor brand image, while having to spend lots of money on R&D for new products.

They probably should fire Rick Wagoner to get some fresh thinking into the business, but I am not going to expect any miracles. Anyone who thinks it is easy is just fooling themselves.

[Veritas_et_Aequitas]

55. Okay. Here's what we'll do.

Go get me some resumes from upper-level executives interested in the job. Then we'll look at their resumes, do some checks on their work history, and then take the most qualified person. You know, the same way anyone else gets their job (outside of corruption).

The frustration with Wagner is quite real and understandable. I admit that I really don't know enough about GM's policies over the past 30 years to make an apt judgment if he can lead his company or not. But the fact that GM has landed in this situation under his leadership does not speak well for him. Does that mean he absolutely must be catapulted from his position? Not necessarily, but we cannot preclude the possibility that there are other people in GM or elsewhere who could do a superior job than Wagner at this given moment of history.

[Ichingcarpenter]

56. GM management says it "disappointed" and "betrayed" consumers

GM says it "disappointed" and "betrayed" consumers

Edited on Mon Dec-08-08 09:07 AM by Tab
Source: Reuters

DETROIT (Reuters) – General Motors Corp on Monday unveiled an unusually frank advertisement acknowledging it had "disappointed" and sometimes even "betrayed" American consumers as it lobbies to clinch the federal aid it needs to stay afloat into next month.
...
"While we're still the U.S. sales leader, we acknowledge we have disappointed you," the ad said. "At times we violated your trust by letting our quality fall below industry standards and our designs became lackluster."

The unsigned open letter, entitled "GM's Commitment to the American People" ran in the trade journal Automotive News, which is widely read by industry executives, lobbyists and other insiders.

In the ad, GM admits to other strategic missteps analysts and critics have said hastened its recent decline.

"We have proliferated our brands and dealer network to the point where we lost adequate focus on the core U.S. market," the ad said. "We also biased our product mix toward pick-up trucks and SUVs."


Read more: http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20081208/us_nm/us_gm_ad

Now, these are the guys you want to lead the new car industry into the next century?

[JeffR]

59. I'd say

you should replace him.

You couldn't do worse, and I expect you'd do a whole lot better.

[JVS]

65. I don't want his head. I just don't want his incompetent ass and his shitty company to get my money

[Romulox]

72. But you have no problem with Citi's incompetent CEO recieving $350 billion. Consistency? nt

[JVS]

74. I have a problem with them too.

But the solution to one wrong is not a second.

[Romulox]

77. Right. But you haven't been spamming these board about AIG or Citi, have you?

"But the solution to one wrong is not a second."

This is idiotic, given that we are currently disbursing the monies to the financials.

[JVS]

79. Sorry for not spamming the board, I'll leave that to the Big 3 Lackey Crew that has arisen

[Romulox]

82. You've had no problem with spamming anti-labor crap for weeks though.

[JVS]

85. I have no problem with labor. Opposition to bad companies is not opposition to labor.

Of course, when labor decides to make themselves the docile servant of corrupt management, one begins to wonder whose interests they are really looking out for.

I question your dedication to labor. How can you defend these monstrously terrible corporations that are now giving the shaft to labor?

[JVS]

66. "Don't blame management" Say the GM apologists.

[Romulox]

71. Quick: What does AIG's CEO make? nt

[JVS]

75. I don't know, I'm not busy shilling for him, unlike some people are for the Auto companies.

[Romulox]

78. That's funny. Because I thought you were an EXPERT in CEO compensation???

:hi:

:rofl:

[JVS]

81. I'm just an expert in knowing that GM sucks.

Of course, that's quite easy to know.

[Romulox]

83. No, you have a monomaniacal hatred of Labor, the best I can tell. What is AIG per worker cost?

:hi:

[JVS]

86. You're confusing labor with big three management,

Their interests are not the same.
:hi:

BTW AIG isn't the issue in how the big 3 managed to fuck up

:hi:

[Romulox]

89. At this point in time, their interests are aligned, as the UAW's leadership has clearly expressed.

Who the are YOU to contradict someone else's sense of their own best interest?

Armed with only the most sensationalist talking points and unwilling to spend 1/2 of the time researching that you spend spewing, you are uniquely unqualified to decide what someone else's "best interests" are.

[JVS]

91. The UAW wouldn't be shitting their pants right now if they had tried harder to unionize...

companies outside the big three.

Evidently they thought it was better to just stick with the big 3 and make concession after concession, even to the point where they are now pawns carrying the big 3's water for them to get a bailout while cutting the compensation to those they represent. The chickens are coming home to roost. :hi:

[Romulox]

94. No coincedence: The companies outside the Big 3 are ALL located in "Right to Work" states.

You've proven that you lack even a basic understanding of the outline of these issues.

[JVS]

95. So unions should confine all their efforts to certain states and certain companies?

Maybe instead of spending the last 20 years complaining about imports, it would have been more useful to lobby on US labor laws. The UAW played the America card a lot and now that there are other brands of cars made in America, it really hasn't panned out.

[DainBramaged]

101. Thank you for taking up the 'line' slack while I rested

I would join in this part of the argument, but 'clicking' on thin air would be useless. As always, it seems whomever is interjecting bullshit just can't face rejection, and hopes to make themselves part of the argument so everyone can se they are 'da bomb'.


Now, regarding Right to work States, it is PROVEN that not only are they Right to Work, but Right to be Dumb too. The educational standards are lower, and the politics are always Republican/Conservative/Fundimentalist. If you've EVER stood and watched a shift let out, you'll also notice that it is a VERY predominantly white shift. We aren't the only country that practices racism. When I went through the unfortunate period of my life thinking working for the Japanese was a step up in the world (newly married, baby daughter), I witnessed EXTREME reverse racism first hand. In all three of the large companies I worked there were lots of women but ZERO African-Americans or Hispanic workers. They get to continue that 'tradition' by locating in the Deep South.

The Republican Senators from these states who are barking about letting the big 3 go bankrupt are traitors in the worst sense.

[last1standing]

68. I love these threads that demand something that is virtually impossible to provide.

And if we can't give it, we're obviously wrong about everything.

Is it not possible to know that Rick Wagoner has done a horrible job without being able to name a currently unemployed CEO? It's the workers who usually get the sack, not the management so it's hard to name good leaders without jobs, or even bad ones.

However, if you really want a name or two (employed, however), how about Warren Buffet? He knows how to make money and still treat his workers with respect. He also knows a little something about big business.

As for another name from left field, how about Al Gore? He doesn't have experience in business, but he does know a thing or two about management and how to inspire his staff. He would also bring in a greener philosophy.

The real question that should be asked however, is 'what is the real problem with GM'? I don't think too many at DU have worked extensively with GM management so it's hard to just say 'do this' or do that' and have things work out. I have worked with GM management from two perspectives (advertising and IT) and can say that this isn't just Rick Wagoner's fault, it's a problem with the entirety of GM management culture.

Management at GM has made CYA job #1. It is also jobs #2, #3, #4, etc... At GM you don't make a single move unless you know for a fact it won't lead to termination. The problem is that with all the politics and backbiting there's very little you can do, whether it is successful or not, that won't eventually lead to that. High level managers are worried that their subordinates will outshine them, so they only advance cronies who they know won't rock the boat. Coworkers get very jealous of anyone who stands out so no one stands out for fear of being ostracized. In this culture there can be no real innovation and no real turn around for GM. They will burn through the monies provided and eventually they will close down.

So who's fault is that? It's still on management, of course, but it's also on the board of directors who elect corporate officers who foster this mentality. Should Rick Wagoner be removed? Of course he should, but his removal does nothing unless new leadership can change the entire culture of GM, which is no easy task. However, if GM is to survive, it must happen.

GM needs to begin rewarding innovation and intelligence from the line worker to the CEO. They need to stop wasting billions on failed advertising that plays to a dying audience. They need to streamline management to allow ideas to flow from the bottom to the top without so many layers of venal managers to block them. And lastly, they need to actively discipline any manager found to be stifling creativity.

Only then can GM have a chance at becoming the company it once was.

[DainBramaged]

97. Nope, not impossible, and as a matter of fact, a few good suggestions were made

don't you wish you could READ instead of just pontificate?

[last1standing]

113. Before you make snide comments, you should note the word, "virtually".

Do I need to post a definition of that word for you?

I named a couple of possibilities, myself, but neither is exactly unemployed as your OP mandated. As for other possibilities mentioned in this thread, they aren't unemployed, either. Because of this, I think I can say my comment was on target.

Also, thanks for ignoring the rest of my post. It shows that you have decided to push an agenda instead of actually discussing a controversial issue.

[DainBramaged]

115. DU, where the lack of humor is the number one cause of brain atrophy

and thick skin is a prerequisite.

[last1standing]

118. Personal insults just aren't funny.

At least not to me.

So do you want to discuss the very real issues involved here or just tell me I don't have a sense of humor?

[DainBramaged]

121. Pretty soon I HAVE to get ready for work, (second shift today)

I am sorry you don't have the sense of humor I have for the saturation surrounding my potential loss of everything if GM goes kaput. But then again, I have developed a very black sense of humor lately.


You also didn't answer my question as to what you do for a living.

[last1standing]

125. I don't think you asked me what I do for a living, but I'm a technical consultant.

I freelance now, but I have worked for GM Planworks and was on the HP account servicing GM. I finished the design and implementation for their global laptop image this year (unfortunately, the idiot after me screwed it up again after I quit). I have dealt with GM management for years and I know the mentality there, all too well.

That doesn't mean the culture can't change. I was very successful in my dealings with them because I was willing to take responsibility for the project and I treated everyone with respect. In fact, I handled one of the few successful projects HP and EDS were involved with. There is massive potential at GM, some of the best minds in the industry work there, but all that talent and ability needs to be harnessed and then given enough free reign to take GM into the future.

[DainBramaged]

128. EDS could have been great for GM, now it's just another outsourcing company

taking jobs from America and shipping them overseas. And owned by the worst of the worst, HP. HP is NOT a very Union friendly company. But you got to do what you got to do to survive.

Later, got to go for now. It was a pleasure.:hi:

[last1standing]

129. That's why I quit. I had the luxury of deciding not to work in that environment.

Most of the people there didn't have that option so they work on failing projects until GM decides to go 'another way' with things. I quit just before EDS was bought out by HP and I can honestly say that having those two companies combine is a good thing because it puts so much incompetence under one roof and makes it easier for workers and companies to avoid them.

And from my experience at HP I can honestly say that offshoring is a really bad idea for a company interested in quality. We would send our needs to the HP India office, where they would work on scripts, send them back to us, then spend months trying to fix all the mistakes that were made due to lack of communication and lack on knowledge. The work ended up costing much more for GM but HP loved it because they could bill hourly for worker making far less than they would have here.

We should pick this conversation back up later. I'm always interested in GM as their future is my future in Michigan.

[Romulox]

70. When is AIG's CEO resigning??? nt

[Seldona]

76. Anyone who doesn't lose 2 grand a car would be a great start.

nt

[Romulox]

80. Right. How dare GM support all those disgusting Pensioners!

:sarcasm:

[last1standing]

88. Are you suggesting that losing money on each vehicle is viable in the long term?

Yes, those pensioners need to have their contracts honored because they worked their entire lives to receive them. It is their payment and no one should advocate breaking that contract.

However, it is up to GM to find a way to honor their financial obligations while making a profit on their vehicles. In the long term, the government can't subsidize the company's failure to compete.

That said, if the government would stop allowing other countries to dump their products (including cars) over here and would take the onus of healthcare off of corporations, GM would have a much greater chance at solvency.

[Romulox]

90. I'm saying that the US Government is going to pay for those pensioners by hook or by crook.

"However, it is up to GM to find a way to honor their financial obligations while making a profit on their vehicles. In the long term, the government can't subsidize the company's failure to compete."

What tripe. Every other industrialized country in the world provides health care and retirement programs for their workers. Ours is the only country outside the developing world where workers are forced to "compete" based on their willingness to forego healthcare.

[last1standing]

92. Since you didn't bother to read the part of my post about healthcare.

And since you felt the need to call what I said "tripe", there's really nothing to discuss with you. You have a closed mind that is unwilling to accept new information that could possibly conflict with your opinions.

It must be very sad to live that way.

Goodbye.

[Romulox]

93. That part was inconsistent with the earlier sentiment.

What do you think the extra $2000 per car goes to?

[obiwan]

84. Alright. how about Bob Lutz (sp?)

Already works under Wagoner. While at Chrysler: the Viper, PT Cruiser, did wonders with the Caravan, the Sebring, the Cirrus, the Neon and the 2.4 liter engine that is the base engine now. Also, his engineering and styling teams, which were with him at Chrysler and are now at GM but are languishing under Wagoner's "leadership".

Sheesh, some things are very obvious.

Lutz is on Morning Joe right now.

[natrat]

87. who gives a fuck about rick wagoners head? what about the 8trillion to the banks

[GliderGuider]

96. It's obvious that any answer we give will be met by your rejection. What's the point?

FWIW, Lutz seems like a pretty good suggestion to me. He had a pretty good track record with that other buggy whip manufacturer.

Or maybe Lee Iacocca would like to give it another crack?

[DainBramaged]

98. Again, if you had just READ the thread, instead of injecting your hyperbole, maybe

you'd see the discussion was quite intelligent earlier. Shows what you know. Sorry to have bothered you this early. You can always just hide the thread if you think the future of millions of Americans isn't important enough.

[GliderGuider]

99. I did offer two suggestions...

Lutz and Iacocca. both with demonstrated skill in running car companies. Any comments?

[DainBramaged]

103. I reject your answers

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

You had that coming. :hi:

[GliderGuider]

109. Actually, it doesn't matter all that much to me who ends up leading the car companies

I'm pretty sure that global events will have a lot impact than individuals on the ultimate outcome.

Automobiles are one of the most ecologically damaging industries that humanity has ever invented. The species got by just fine without cars, and we will again. If you take a longer term view, the disruptions to your industry can be seen as a good thing -- something to be celebrated and encouraged.

[DainBramaged]

111. I disagree with you premise, and reject your dismissal of my industry

You have that coming too. :rofl:


What do you do for a living? Starbucks? Retail? Some computer related thing? Maybe limo driver? Just asking.

[GliderGuider]

120. You don't believe that the automotive industry has been ecologically damaging?

The oil used to fuel automobiles has been responsible for almost half of the excess CO2 that's driving the melting the world's glaciers and ice caps, changing rainfall patterns and thereby threatening food production in many areas of the world.

Automobiles and related transportation has enabled the spread of human civilization into and over the habitat of tens of thousands of species that are currently going extinct. The transportation industry has driven the globalization of trade that has destroyed the ecologies of prairies, rain forests and oceans alike.

I'm not about to weep for the demise of the automobile industry. It was a short-term aberration in human history, and even though it has been massively destructive, its chapter will soon be closed. No amount of union-supporting can change what that industry is or where it's headed. Nothing is permanent in this world, and no enterprise is too big to fail.

My background is strongly socialist. I'm the third generation in my family to support the Canadian New Democratic Party, Canada's only solidly pro-union political party. Over time, though I've learned to think for myself on some issues. The UAW (or their Canadian counterpart the CAW) can't confer sanctity on a devastatingly wrong-headed industry.

[DainBramaged]

122. (sigh) we are stuck with it, until long after we are both gone.

[LanternWaste]

100. Rosanne Rosanna Danna...

Rosanne Rosanna Danna...






(I tend to allow nonsensical questions nothing more than nonsensical answers...)

[DainBramaged]

104. I tend to allow non-thinking people people a digit momentarily

[LanternWaste]

105. If you get a sense of self-validation from it, by all means...

If you get a sense of self-validation from it, by all means...

[DainBramaged]

106. Thanks for playing, too bad you don't like the question

such is life.

[LanternWaste]

108. Is that what life is like?

Is that what life is like-- invalid, presumptuous, disingenuous, ineffectual questions posing as sincerity? I did not know that.

But of course, not all of us can be as open-minded or as clever as you are, but bless your little heart-- we do try.

[DainBramaged]

112. I get enough Blessings, I don't need yours. Nor want it.

We're done, nothing constructive here, move along now.

[LanternWaste]

127. It hard for us to do any thing constructive

It hard for us to do any thing constructive when the original question is misleading and disingenuous-- difficult to build a solid structure on a foundation of fluff.

(It's not my blessing you know-- bless your little heart...)

But, if it helps your sense of self, please feel free to follow up with the last word. I won't respond, I promise. Make it clever though, I have full faith and confidence that you can do better than the dogmatic, narrow thinking you've illustrated to us in the past (which actually goes well with a laugh-track added....)

[JNelson6563]

107. Sadly Obama is booked for the foreseeable future.

How 'bout Warren Buffet? Too bad Sam Walton's dead (as evidenced by his greedy spawn's behavior with WalMart). I'd say Lee Iacocca but he'd bring in con men like scAmway's Dick DeVos et al.

But then again I haven't been screaming for anyone's head so I don't know why I'm answering.

Julie--not a clueless keyboard commando

[DainBramaged]

110. Obama would be the best, I agree, but he's busy at the moment

Buffet is going to be working with Obama (my opinion) Iaccoca is a figurehead of his former self, and Sam Walton would be prefect, if we could resurrect him.

[Mike 03]

131. I agree. My father and I discussed this this morning. We are disgusted at how

congress is attempting now to micromanage managerial decisions in corporations.

And that goes the Governor of Illinois threatening Bank America. That is the kind of shit that could spark a run on a bank and destroy the entire fucking economy.

Politicians stay out of business.

[Greyhound]

132. Jim Sinegal. n/t