Every time I see a HUMMER or another obnoxious SUV toy

[mdmc]

I struggle to support an auto bailout.

If these things (Bummers / SUVs) were so "profitable", then why do they need tax payers cash now?

The idea of bailing out GMC so that they can make another few years of HUMMERS is beyond me.

I can support a green bailout (give cash to make or buy green vehicles). Or a union bailout (taxpayer money goes to help make USA workers benefits comparable to civilized socialized countries like Japan and Europe).

But the idea of my tax dollars going to fund some HUMMER supporting CEO makes me :puke:

The bank bailout is the same thing. Unless the taxpayers own the bank, it was a bad idea.

The bank bailout failed. The auto bailout won't do much better...

[Pharaoh]

1. I still want answers from GM

as to why they killed the electric car only weeks after Bush stole the 2000 election?:freak:

[mdmc]

2. I didn't know it was that recent - I thought they killed that car decades ago

I want answer too my friend...

[Pharaoh]

3. No, watch the movie

It was as soon as the election was stolen.................Where the fuck are the reporters today who can put 2 and 2 together and connect the dots?

[mdmc]

7. I will watch

peace and low stress

[Pharaoh]

14. link here

http://video.google.com/videosearch?q=who+killed+the+electric+car&emb=0&aq=0&oq=who+kill#

[mdmc]

24. thanks... now I can watch tonigh...

peace and low stress and God bless...

[Pharaoh]

88. sorry just the trailer

but it's worth the rental if you cannot locate it on the web.

[DainBramaged]

21. Really, you want answers? Will that make you buy a GM product if the answer is satisfactory?

:eyes:

[mdmc]

32. I'd buy an American car (I mean if I could afford a car)

especially a super cool electric car...

WHY DID THEY DESTROY THAT CAR AND FOCUS ON THE HUMMER LINE?

[DainBramaged]

49. Why do you care TIME TO MOVE ON

[Ignis]

71. Have you watched the documentary in question? (nt)

[zagging]

123. Honda killed the Electric Car

Everyone uses that video to blame GM, but even the film makers themselves blame EVERYBODY involved except the batteries:

Part 9 of 10

Car companies: Guilty
Oil companies: Guilty
Batteries: Not guilty
C.A.R.B: Guilty
Consumers: Guilty
Government: Guilty
Hydrogen Fuel Cell: Guilty

In the film, Honda scrapped all their EV's too, but I have yet to see anyone blame Honda for killing the electric car.

[sellitman]

4. To some extent I agree but......

the downside to not passing this legislation is totally not acceptable.

[Pharaoh]

9. I agree in supporting the auto bailout

Much more than the financial bailout. But I don't want anymore of these bailouts with no questions asked. wE NEED ANSWERS TO.
SOME STUFF!

[mdmc]

33. AGREED

ditto

[acmavm]

5. How many of the dolts driving those things around have you

thought about jumping bad on? Not too many I bet.

But you can turn some idiot's choice of the type of vehicle he wanted to purchase into a reason to deny the worker's some relief.

This place just gets dumber by the hour.

[Fumesucker]

10. Someone decided to *produce* that vehicle...

That is who the OP is talking about, not so much the buyer.

Disclaimer, I have an Expedition (to pull a trailer for my business) which is about as big as a Hummer, even if somewhat more sleek.

[acmavm]

16. And if the American public had more sense, they wouldn't have

been sold.

[Fumesucker]

18. No one ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American public..

The sage of Baltimore wrote that fairly early in the last century, it was true then and is true now.

[DainBramaged]

27. You noticed that too huh?

And THEY always want ANSWERS, even though they are loathe to own a Domestic.

[spoony]

36. Perfectly stated.

Just perfectly!

[mdmc]

37. what do you mean "jumping bad on?"

I'm down with keeping union jobs in America. I think we can do it better then we did the bank bailout...

[acmavm]

54. Uh, hasn't the hold-up on the money been a process of attaching strings

to it, totally unlike the bailout?

No, you're not for keeping union jobs. If you were you wouldn't post this crap.

[mdmc]

58. then i'm not

I always support union shops... as much as I can...

and I support bailing out the big three...

But everytime I see a toySUV, especially a HUMMER, my blood boils.

I would love to see a level playing field in the auto industry... get rid of free trade and support our home industry...

either way, the corporations will allow the bail out the workers unions or they will allow only the corporations to be bailed out. I have no say...

imho, the 'holdup' to the bailout is simple - this bailout will help workers. Why would corporations want that?

[acmavm]

61. You'd love to see a level playing field. Then what about the foreign

auto companies and their SUVs and gass guzzling enviroment killers? Got anything to say about them?

[mdmc]

66. sure... create domestic fuel efficient alternatives

and let tariffs and environmental taxes, including gas taxes, level the playing field.

Also we can sway the market. 5% discount (paid by USA taxpayers) for any purchased car that was made by union labor. 15% discount for fuel efficient vehicles that are made by union labor.

See, if a car is good for the environment, made by workers earning a living wage, and well built, it is all good. It can be made anywhere as long as wages and quality are constant...

[acmavm]

69. You didn't answer my other question. What about the foreign behemoths?

You bitch about American, think that the fact that a lot of people were of the mind to go out and purchase one (no gun to head, mind you), but you have no problem with foreign? You think the American auto industry should die, but foreign should just be allowed to go on pumping 'em out?

[mdmc]

73. Allow me to respond

I don't like any SUVs. Companies can make what they want. I don't like what they make. I don't want my money to go to help them profit on these product that I oppose.

I don't mind, for some reason, all SUVs. And I understand that some SUVs serve a purpose.

For the record the SUV's I like are the wrangler, raider (US "made", although the Raider was probably made in Asia for Ford), and discovery.

Peace and low stress...

[bertman]

115. If you don't like SUV's don't buy one.

[ItNerd4life]

125. I think you missed the OPs point

I took it as the OP was referring to all the money the car makers made off selling the big vehicles.
The car makers said they only wanted to produce the larger vehicles because they had larger profit margins.

Where did all those profits go? Didn't they save the money for a rainy day?

[LSK]

6. I thought GM was cancelling Hummers???

:shrug:

[mdmc]

41. thank God

[K Gardner]

55. I nearly choked when I saw a TV ad last night for 2009 HUMMERS in prime time.

Said they were economical and FUEL EFFICIENT.. and these people are wanting a BAIL OUT?!

[carlyhippy]

70. and did you notice how cheap they are now?

When I bought my Xterra this summer, a dealer tried to talk me into a Hummer. It was going to cost the same as the Xterra, but I didn't give it a second look because of the mpg it gets.

[Romulox]

8. How do you feel when you see an Nissan Armada or Toyota Land Runner?

[Fumesucker]

11. I didn't know Nissan and Toyota were asking for US government funds..

Do you have a link?

[LSK]

12. I didnt know Nissan and Toyota's bankruptcy would give us 3million unemployed

Do you have a link?

[Fumesucker]

15. I don't know the numbers...

But Nissan and Toyota going bankrupt would put a lot of people out of work, not as many as GM, Ford and Chrysler but still a substantial number.

[LSK]

22. how about none of them go bankrupt and we give them the money

And GM makes the Volt and cancels the hummer?

Sound good?

[mdmc]

44. I am down

give discounts to buyers of volts...get rid of Hummer...
I am on board...

[Romulox]

13. You haven't followed the news very closely then.

The chief opponents of the Big 3 bridge loan are Shelby and Corker, two Senators from states that have given billions in tax incentives to foreign transplant automakers.

These two states are also (coincidentally, understand!) "client" states--that is, states that receive far more in Federal Tax revenues than they contribute. Therefore, the US taxpayer is subsidizing tax breaks to Mercedes Benz, Hyundai, and Toyota.

QED.

[Fumesucker]

17. You are assuming that I'm against helping the domestic auto industry..

That is an incorrect assumption on your part.

And the domestics have been playing the government for breaks for going on a century now.

Not to mention it was the domestics that basically started the SUV craze, largely for reasons of evading CAFE and safety standards for regular passenger vehicles.

[Romulox]

23. Please don't change the subject. YOU brought up taxpayer funds

Now that I've demonstrated taxpayer funds flowing to Shelby and Corker's states, you've switched to "everybody's doing it!"

"Not to mention it was the domestics that basically started the SUV craze, largely for reasons of evading CAFE and safety standards for regular passenger vehicles."

Right. The DEVIL made Americans buy SUVs, and in his free time, he FORCED Toyota to engineer a full line of full size SUVs. :eyes:

[Fumesucker]

38. I didn't "switch"

I'm expanding the argument, I'm unsurprised that you can't tell the difference.

If the SUVs had not been built the American people would not have bought them.

And if the domestics had not started the SUV craze the imports would most likely not have jumped on that particularly stupid bandwagon.

[Romulox]

39. LOL. You're digging in with the "the DEVIL made me do it!" argument

And throwing in an ad hominem for good measure. Good luck with that.

[Fumesucker]

45. Do you think Americans would have bought SUV type vehicles if they were not designed and built?

Personally, I suspect that if SUVs weren't designed and built in order to evade safety and mileage standards then people would not have bought them.

Virtually all advertising is designed by psychological experts to appeal to our emotions rather than our intellect, the ad campaigns for SUVs were designed in just that manner.

And ad hominem implies I'm using who you are to dismiss or invalidate your argument.

[Romulox]

47. In the law, there are two kinds of "cause"

There is the logical "but for" causation. You're correct that no one could have bought a Big 3 SUV if the Big 3 had not produced them.

The second kind of cause is called "proximate cause". This is the sense of legal responsibility. I would say without hesitation that the Big 3's production of SUVs is not the proximate cause of American's gluttony, which is on display in every aspect of our lives--from the buffet to the boardroom, and from the McMansion to the Highway.

I think it's the second prong in which your argument fails. Americans are pigs in all aspects of their lives, and I don't think it's safe to say that we'd have been more conscientious in our use of fuel if only the Big 3 hadn't tempted us...

"And ad hominem implies I'm using who you are to dismiss or invalidate your argument."

What is the point of your above insult if not to do just that? :hi:

[Fumesucker]

50. I didn't intend it as an insult, it was an observation on the fact.

That, at least from where I sit here in the cheap seats, you appear to have a rather inflexible point of view.

I'm actually trying to see all sides here.

And I'll reiterate that I own a domestic SUV, an Expedition, but it only gets about two to three thousand miles a year since I use it only for towing a heavy trailer for business purposes.. When I don't need the trailer, which is most of the time, I drive a smallish four cylinder sedan (an import) or ride my motorcycle (another import) or bicycle (American company but built in Taiwan).

And I agree with you about the American public, by and large they are unthinking consumers who are obsessed with appearances.

[Kalyke]

35. They do every day..

But, all of these foreign companies got tax breaks, that is bribes, and the joy of "right-to-work", that is anti-union laws, from these Red states to locate there. Unlike the rust-belt states, Tennessee, South Carolina and Alabama gorge themselves at the federal tax trough, consuming vastly more federal money than they pay. So federal tax money gets spent in place of local tax money to help these Red states offer tax breaks to foreign companies. Where's the competition in that?

http://carlsback40.blogspot.com/2008/12/red-state-senators-helping-subsidize.html


Keith Olbermann talks about it here: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/3036677/#28166210

I Googled several, but the bottom line is that foreign car companies are failing, too, and they're getting ongoing tax breaks from government to subsidize their operations.

[Fumesucker]

52. There are a great many industries which ask for and get tax breaks..

And most of the tax breaks the import manufacturers have gotten were not under the threat of "We'll go bankrupt if you don't help us out".

I'll also point out that state funds are not the same thing as US government (federal) funds.

[Kalyke]

67. Why isn't it the same?

Both state and federal funds come from taxpayers.

And, it's still a 'bailout' by any terminology.

[Better Believe It]

42. They will be asking for Japanese government funds and they will get them

European governments are already "bailing" out some of their domestic automakers and we can expect Korea, China and Japan to follow soon.

[tammywammy]

51. Toyota is asking the EU for a loan though. n/t

[DainBramaged]

106. UH, not US funds (I hope this answeres your question about their integrity)

http://fav.or.it/post/819168/toyota-exec-seeks-40-billion-euro-loan-from-eu


senior vice president of Toyota’s United Kingdom office strongly suggested that the European Commission consider an economic stimulus package that would include 40 billion euros in low-interest, short-term loans to aid the automakers in developing fuel-efficient vehicles for the future.


Graham Smith, speaking at the Society of Motor Manufacturers and Traders, said, “At a time of economic uncertainty when budgets are stretched to capacity, we must ensure the industry continues to invest in the development of new products and innovative technology.”

The European Investment Bank would provide the loans that will potentially be offered by the European Commission. The European Commission will meet today to consider the economic stimulus package.

[mdmc]

43. rich boy toys UNDESERVING of a bailout

although I've always had a soft spot for some SUV's (Wrangler, Raider, Discovery, and Land Runner)

For the record I know that there are good reasons to own/use SUVs...

[DainBramaged]

19. I guess you've never seen the big gas guzzlers from Toyota, Nissan, or Honda

what hypocrisy.

[Initech]

25. Yeah true.

Honda = Ridgeline and Pilot, both huge gas guzzlers

Nissan = Titan, Armada, and Pathfinder, all 3 huge gas guzzlers

Toyota - Landcruiser, FJ, and the Tundra - all huge gas guzzlers.

[DainBramaged]

28. Never ever defame god ToyHonNisMaz on DU

because all Japanese cars are superior beings and are to be revered.

[Kalyke]

40. Even if they're not doing as well as Ford...

:hi:

(all figures compare November 2008 sales with November 2007)
Chrysler -47%
GM -41%
Ford -31%
Toyota -34%
Nissan -42%
Honda -32%
Mazda -31%
Hyundai/Kia -39%
Volkswagen Group -22%
BMW Group (including Mini) -27%
Mercedes-Benz (including Smart) -30%

(And, shhhhhh.... don't tell anyone, but the Prius TANKED last year in sales)

Toyota Prius -48%
Toyota Corolla/Matrix -13%
Toyota Yaris -17%
Scion (all) -45%
Honda Civic -30%
Honda Fit -8%
VW Rabbit -44%
Nissan Versa -18%
Nissan Sentra -39%
Ford Focus -38%
Chevrolet Aveo -36%
Chevrolet Cobalt -54%
Pontiac Vibe -14%
Kia Spectra -33%
Hyundai Accent -11%

http://www.automobilemag.com/features/news/0812_2008_november_auto_sales/index.html

[ddeclue]

95. I owned two different Mazdas in the 1980's and 1990's

and they sucked...FWD cars have too many things that can go wrong on them.

[mdmc]

31. I've seen them all my friend

I actually like Wanglers and those little Raiders. I like Range Rovers too... and those military looking Benzos.
But, all in all, I have the SUVs that are toys (My dad and b-in-law have trucks for work. I dig work vehicles, trucks, things that are needed).

I wouldn't be down with bailing out SUV's from Nissan, Honda, or Toyota either. Why don't they need a bailout?

I am all down with leveling the global playing field. But why does Detroit need a bailout and these other SUV schmucks don't?

[pansypoo53219]

20. last night i saw an ad for

the NEW 2009 HUMMERS!

[Romulox]

26. The new Hummers are the same size as the Nissan Armada, Toyota Land Runner, etc.

Not to defend them, but why single them out when all of these SUVs are similar? :shrug:

[mdmc]

53. oh, I hate those other toy SUVs too

hata player i suppose

[mdmc]

46. change

ya can hope for

[TexasObserver]

29. Don't forget that congress gave Hummers a 10% tax credit a few years ago.

It was about 2003 or 2004. They gave the buyers of such large tanks a huge gift in the form of a tax credit for buying a new SUV, including Hummers. Every doctor, lawyer, CPA, etc. who could justify one as a work vehicle got a fat kickback from Uncle Sam.

That is different from a bailout, because it was a GIFT to the auto industry. Not a loan, a gift. It was a transfer of wealth from the treasury to the top earners in the country.

I can assure you that the same GOP members who revile at helping the workers keep jobs were just fine with letting the Treasury be raided so their base could get cheaper SUVs.

[Romulox]

34. No they didn't. nt

[Better Believe It]

30. Don't Try To Impose Your Car Preferences: Who are you to tell us what to drive?

If you don't like SUV's, pick-up trucks or whatever you don't have to buy or drive one!

But don't tell me and others what we may or may not drive or buy.

We don't need your approval.

OK?

Do you also object to government loans being made other nations to preserve their domestic car industry? Did you object to the over 3 billion dollars in tax money given to foreign auto makers to set up shop in non-union Alabama?

Enough hypocrisy already!

And who the hell is buying "green cars" now? No one is buying them, or very few are. They are too expensive, banks won't make car loans and sales are way down for ALL cars, domestic and foreign. Do

And your claim that giving General Motors some aid so they "can make a few years of hummers" is total b.s.

That's only a tiny fraction of the cars produced by domestic auto makers.

I take it you support the right-wing anti-union Republicans like Senator Shelby (and some Democrats) who wish to destroy the domestic auto industry and especially the auto workers union.

[mdmc]

48. No, I am for a level playing field

as a big government liberal I am all for public investment in the private sector for the public good.

I don't want bailout money going to SUV's. That is only one persons opinion.

The powers that be will do what they want.
They will decide what is done.

I really have no say.

My family does have 3 "suvs" (2 pick up trucks and an SUV) - I know they serve a purpose and free people are allowed to buy what they want.

I am a big supporter of buying American.

I just hate the HUMMER line and toy SUVs (SUVs used as cars). Everytime I see a HUMMER I fall into an anti-bailout rage.

So I support tax money bailouts going to make Detroit more competitive while still being pro-union. I am down with that. I am not down with subsidizing the HUMMER.

[jmg257]

57. What is it about the Hummer that makes you hate it so, but not other "non-toy" SUVs? nt

[mdmc]

59. perhaps it is the audacity of it

but I hate all those toySUVs too... with some strange, unexplainable exceptions (like the discovery or the wrangler)...

[jmg257]

60. Ok - lost me then. But...whatever. Jeep? Ridgeline? Toy SUVs or no?

:shrug:

[mdmc]

62. I don't know why I have fond feeling toward some SUVs

I like the Jeep Wrangler / Land Rover's Discovery / and that weird boxy Benz... and the Ford Raider...

For the record, any vehicle that is used for work (well, except the hated HUMMER) is kosher in my book.

My family has three SUV (well, 2 pick ups and a Santa Fe) that are needed for takin care of bidness...

[Better Believe It]

63. How about the Alabama taxpayer subsidies to the Mercedes?

Well, the big Hummer will mainly be made for the military now.

That hasn't been the biggest seller among domestic carmakers.

[mdmc]

77. I am all about socialization of the economy

so I don't mind what Alabama, Europe, Japan, and China have done for their industries...

I just goes to show that the free market is shit and free trade is flawed.

[Ignis]

72. No one is buying "green cars" now?! Pull the other one.

And who the hell is buying "green cars" now? No one is buying them, or very few are.

Links? Stats? Anything reality-based to back this up?

:shrug:

[Better Believe It]

100. Here's Your Green Car:

A Buick!

Nice car.

[wtmusic]

103. Real Nice! Just like those Edsels...be around forever!

:rofl:

[Ignis]

110. Just in the thread to troll then? Got it.

Thanks for the clarification. :hi:

[Better Believe It]

121. Get a sense of humor! Why do you hate union workers?

By the way, I have a 2005 Buick Century. I and my wife love it. No complaints. If GM hasn't been destroyed by the Senate, we'll probably trade it in for a new Buick Lucerne in a year.

Do you think I should be forced to buy a non-union made car?

[Ignis]

122. Are you saying union workers are too DUMB to make green cars?

What, Buick can't make a hybrid? :eyes:

[wtmusic]

89. As long as you keep your pollution to yourself nt

[MazeRat7]

56. SUV's account for only 11+% of the 250Million vehicles on the road...

Not enough to help them be "profitable" by themselves.

Peace,
MZr7

[flvegan]

64. They've been building the Corvette for 54 years

(they didn't make one in 1983)

54 years of the Corvette and they need our money. I blame the Vette.

:sarcasm:

[mdmc]

74. I wonder why there was no 83...

interesting...

[flvegan]

79. Huge transition year

from the curvy bodystyle to the wedge we kinda still have now. Also a complete revamp of the interior, drivetrain, etc. Production on the '82 ran too late to switch the factory over, I think..

[mdmc]

113. Thanks for the info

I have a buddy that bought on of my dad's friends 85 vette....

[cherokeeprogressive]

78. But, but, but...

It's my all-time favorite car! I just got finished reading a comparison between the three different model Vettes this year and the ZR1 gets 20 mpg with 638 HORSEPOWER!

(gotta keep buying those lottery tickets... gotta keep buying those lottery tickets... gotta keep buying those lottery tickets...)

[flvegan]

80. The $100k supercar is here.

The ZR1 will outperform anything from Ferrari or Lamborghini. It is an incredible car.

[cherokeeprogressive]

82. It's been my fantasy car since I was a kid and I'd take one over a Lambo or Ferrari any day.

Or maybe I'd take the Lambo, sell it, and buy TWO Vettes.

Lottery tickets, lottery tickets, lottery tickets...

[charlie]

65. Gasoline consumption is heading back to summer 2008 levels

[mdmc]

68. the hard part is to remember

Conserve when times are good... and bad...
Do what is right, not what is easy...

Times are "bad" right now, cause of the economy...

[Dukkha]

75. oh, here come all the pro-Hummer apologists again

:boring:
isn't there a more worthwhile cause to rally phony outrage over?

[DainBramaged]

101. Oh look, here come all the pro-Japanese apologists again

isn't there a more worthwhile cause to rally phony outrage over?


Nice try Bucko. When it comes to phony outrage, you folks win hands down.

[Dukkha]

108. ah the pretentious repeater reply

FAIL

:eyes:

[DainBramaged]

109. Sure, whatever

[Book Lover]

76. Look at it this way: since civilian Hummers are watered down versions of military vehicles,

you've already been supporting them for a good many years now with your tax dollars.

[Greyhound]

83. Our tax dollars bought most of them outright. Remember Idiot Frat Boy's

up to $100,000 tax credit for purchases of trucks over 6000 lbs.?

That's why there are so many real estate people, interior decorators, contractors, etc. driving them. Between the tax credits and depreciation, they were paid for by the rest of us.

One of his first corporate welfare programs, passed along with the elimination of the $4,000 credit for buying "green" vehicles.

[Book Lover]

84. Very good point!

I had forgotten about that.

[WCGreen]

86. That is the point...

By doing this, GM et al were able to push a product that foreign markets were basically ignoring. It also palyed a part in scuttling the electric car, in my mind at least...

[Greyhound]

120. I think it is self evident. From their perspective they were forced to build a car

and they did it too well and the state held up their end of the bargain, but it wasn't nearly as profitable as the land barges. Once they put the new batteries in, there was almost zero maintenance and they didn't break enough, no revenue stream from repairs either.

Not a tough decision.

[donco6]

81. When I see a Hummer, I just laugh.

And I think to myself, "What a dumbass."

[Lifetimedem]

85. Then my Car would make you throw up

I drive an SUV and have for 20 years.

My current one gets 18 in the city and 22-24 on the road.
Everyone does not live in Texas or Florida , some of us live in snow areas and they are more than a toy.


GM produced what people what Americans wanted, that is the job of a company for its stock holders.

SUVs and mini vans were the largest sellers of both domestic and foreign car makers. People actually have families here and want the space they afford.

The gas crisis stopped the demand for them and a desire for high milage cars.

[wtmusic]

90. Problem is most SUV drivers are using more than their share

of the atmosphere, which belongs to all of us. Unless the fact they can afford it entitles them to more oxygen. That's why it's called "An Inconvenient Truth".

[AZ Criminal JD]

91. Since you mention "An Inconvenient Truth"

Al Gore uses far more than his "share" of energy for his mansion. When he gives up that and lives in a house of his "share" I'll stop using more than my "share" of the atmosphere. BTW what exactly is my "share" of the atmosphere?

[wtmusic]

93. An interesting proposition

So you're going to wait for Al. Who does he get to wait for? And I'm sure as hell not going to change my habits until bamalib does, why should I have to go first blah blah blah

We're doomed.

btw your share is what you need.

[Lifetimedem]

99. When you point at others

you have 4 fingers pointed back at you.

[Lifetimedem]

98. LOL Exactly

He and many other of the well placed think they have a divine right to use energy to heat and cool their mansions and fuel their private jets and their MANY cars. .it is only the "little people that are the REAL problem

[wtmusic]

102. Everybody but you, huh? Where are your fingers pointing?

I repeat: we're doomed.

[Lifetimedem]

112. Right at you

I have a small home, we have made energy efficient. I hang out laundry and in nice weather ... and I recycle everything I can

So tell me what YOU are doing ??

[wtmusic]

116. I'm not pointing fingers, you are

I'm attacking your position that what people want for themselves is all that's important.

And I agree that Al Gore's personal lifestyle sets a shitty example after the film that he made.

[wuushew]

117. Gore's house also functions as a place of business

How is that wasteful?

http://www.snopes.com/politics/business/gorehome.asp

[lumberjack_jeff]

87. I feel the same way about women's rights when I see a Barbie.

Just kidding of course, because that would be a stupid goddamn way to form policy opinions, wouldn't it?

[earth mom]

92. You should be angrier that Foreign imports have been allowed in this country with no tariffs.

Which has hurt the domestic car industry more than anything and just about killed off production of most products in this country. :grr:

[depakid]

96. If American companies had built reliable, economic cars while the dollar was at record lows

rather than spending billions to creat demand among wasteful Americans for big hulking pieces of shit that sensible folks abroad didn't want- perhaps they might have built an export market.

[ddeclue]

94. Those vehicles WERE profitable as long as gas was cheap

and gas has suddenly gotten cheap again - little cars simply were not in demand because there was no financial motive for consumers to go small.

The problem that the automakers are having right now has ZERO to do with "what kind" of car they are producing or the "quality" of the cars. American cars are technology and quality leaders and have been for 10 years now or more. Speaking of "small" cars - the Ford Focus is the best selling car in the world.

The REAL problem for automakers right now is the fact that banks are not making loans to anyone because of their own previous greed and stupidity as bankers has led them not to trust anyone including each other any more since everyone started defaulting on poorly thought out loan programs.

The REAL problem for automakers right now is that we've all allowed WalMart to take over the universe, ship all of our manufacturing jobs to China where Chinese workers are paid 50 cents a day (slave wages) and then we've been dumb enough to support this corporate greed by buying Wally world products.

In the end the owners of WalMart got rich, the Chinese factory owners got rich and the unemployed American workers can no longer afford new cars and the Chinese factory workers never could afford them so demand is dropping like a stone.

Since Americans jobs now suck or they don't have them, their stock portfolios have gone down the toilet and their homes are following, and the banks won't make a loan, nobody is buying a car anyomre except the uber wealthy (who will buy Hummers by the way) but this 1% of the population will not be enough to support the auto industry. In fact foreign car mfg's will ALSO fail unlesss we fix the ENTIRE economy and restore balance between worker and employer, union and corporation, consumer and manufacturer.

Doug D.

[DainBramaged]

104. So many here just don't get it

Husb2Sparkley did a poll about this exact same reasoning, and few answered it's the banks, stupid.


It's the banks fault, stupid (not you, just rhetorical)

[depakid]

107. And petrol is an inexuastable resource, right?

Fact is American carmakers were shortsighted and STUPID (caps to empasize stupidity).

Their management doesn't deserve any sort of bailout- any more than the financial industry did- and if they continue to remain IN DENIAL and aggressively market wasteful and inefficient products, time will come when they finally do go under for good.

Obviously, the current situation requires that the government act to keep them afloat- but with an eye toward longer term sustainability. Otherwise, they'll end up in the shit can again- just as they have been in the past,

[RiverStone]

97. I agree!

Alas, until folks prefer to drive smaller or greener - the free market will not be forced to abandon their gas hogs. IMO, the BIG 3 should not get a dime unless they agree to downsize and go greener and smaller (at least in a much larger percentage).

You and I will be future shareholders if this bailout goes through.

If it is not green or union, as you say - the bailout will be nothing but a sellout. And don;t get me started on the billions $$$$ of fluff we gave Wall Street!

[DainBramaged]

105. When it comes to phony outrage, you Foreign defenders take the cake.

[mdmc]

111. I'm a local kind of guy, but I will always buy quality over locality

So if given the choice between Guinness stout or Bud light, I'll go with the stout. Not sayin that O'dells 90 Shilling or Fat Tire Ale aint better, cause they both are.

[DainBramaged]

114. Beer and cars are like, well beer and cars

:shrug:

But I still see lots of beer outrage around here.

[mdmc]

118. these are drinking days I guess

...while I have you on the line here..I was wondering..Have you ever heard of a book called Which Side Are You On?: Trying to Be for Labor When It's Flat on Its Back by Thomas Geoghegan? It is a real great read on how we got here and what we can do to build. While I was getting a link for you I realized that this writer has written a couple other books and I might check them out.

http://www.amazon.com/dp/1565848861/ref=nosim/?tag=msnshop-books-mp-20&creative=380333&creativeASIN=1565848861&linkCode=asn

Peace and low stress db

[DainBramaged]

119. Thanks, but my stress wont be reduced till the economy is back on the rail

[mdmc]

124. There is really only one way to get that quick

Start spending hardcore as soon as Obama is in office. Earn as much as you can and spend as much as your comfort level allows...

The economy will either recover sooner or later. If Obama can bring hope, it will be sooner.