Stuff We're Not Supposed to Talk About re: Unions from MI

[IdaBriggs]

I live in Michigan. The auto industry is part of the life-blood of my family, since my husband, two brothers, and (sometimes) I all make our living from it. My father (deceased) was a salaried GM retiree, and my father-in-law is a retired Teamster. His girlfriend is a Ford widow. My mother will be losing her GM retiree medical benefits starting January 1st. I have been buying GM products on my father's discount plan for many years, as have most of my siblings.

To put it politely, unions are not respected in our area. The CONCEPT of unions is appreciated, but the REALITY of them -- not. We have too many stories based on real-life experiences where corruption and abuse occurred. Here are some of them --

My father (who worked in security as an investigator) continually watched as he would gather evidence of theft, have the folks prosecuted (a challenge in itself), and then watch the union get the person's job back, sometimes multiple times. (Moral: theft is okay, if you are friends with the right people.)

My father had a particular beef with ranking members of the union who regularly abused their privileges by having other people punch in for them instead of actually working, and one of his favorite stories was about how he finally got one guy fired by videotaping him mowing his lawn with a time-stamp when he was supposedly at work. The union got the guy 'unfired' and in turn, traded off parking lot lighting to keep his job. (Moral: one guy kept his job, and screwed a bunch of fellow employees by giving up a safety feature.)

My father-in-law (the Teamster) was sent to a meeting to represent a claim for one of his fellow Teamsters, and drove all night to get there to do his duty to represent the guy who had a legitimate claim. When he arrived, he was told they had already settled the case (prior to actually doing it in public), and his guy had lost in return for something else. (Moral: backroom politics triumphs over justice.)

My husband's uncle (another automotive guy) regularly did the work of two or three guys, because the rest would nap (he was the youngest). He would regularly be threatened for 'showing people up'. His story is a pretty common one; everyone with a relative in the auto plants knows them. (Moral: hardworking people take the bread out of lazy people's mouths.)

My husband had problems personally with maintenance staff at one plant he worked at -- they would sleep (be unavailable) during most of the day, then sabotage pieces of equipment near the end of the shift so getting it repaired would incur overtime. He *personally* witnessed one of the guys doing it, but he was a relative of 'someone' and ... well, that is just how it goes sometimes. (Moral: the company is rich, and they can afford it.)

It is understood and agreed that unions have a place, and it is also understood and agreed that (oh, I shouldn't say this!) sometimes they are run like little mobs, with 'protection' given to those who don't deserve it, and folks who do getting ignored because they aren't friends with the 'right' people.

I also know a guy who works in a non-Union shop who is close to being homeless (he has a wife and two kids) because his employers don't offer short-term disability as a benefit, and his diabetes is advanced to the point where his doctors won't let him return to work.

When Unions work the way they are supposed to, they are a beautiful thing. They benefit everyone, and make life better for everyone. When they don't work, or are abused, they are like a bad high-school clique you can't escape from, and a bad taste in your mouth is the LEAST of your problems. Because a lot of power-positions are 'force of personality' its easy to get 'little dictators' taking advantage.

I don't have a solution to basic group dynamics in these types of situations. Some 'self policing' would be good, but that has its owns problems -- it seems to be easy for unions to ignore problems by 'popular' people, while annoying ones get hung out to dry.

The stories I've shared here aren't just 'folk lore' -- they are pretty common experiences. We might not like the attitudes about unions here in Michigan, but there you are from someone who has had a roof over her head, food in her stomach, and clothes on her back thanks to the automotive industry for most of my life.

I get it. I don't like it, but I get it.

[sandnsea]

1. Human beings do fucked up things?

Oh my god - you're kidding!!

You think this doesn't happen in non-union jobs?

I do not know why people think this shit helps.

[Demit]

3. She didn't say that. Of course it happens all over. It's called abuse of power, and it's a part of

human nature. I wouldn't mind a dialog on how to fix the abuses...maybe that's what Ida is trying to do, start a conversation on how to fix what's wrong with union practices, so that we could combat the idea that unions are wrong altogether, and should be stamped out altogether.

THAT'S what should be part of management-union negotiations—bargaining for tighter regulations so this sort of gaming of the system can't happen. I remember when my dad went from union to a supervisory position, forty some years ago. He would bring home stories like Ida's. Like Ida, he understood, having been on the other side...but he saw it from his new side too, and it frustrated him.

[sandnsea]

5. The point is that things happen

It would have happened whether there was a union or not. The union is not the issue. Most bosses just accept that a certain amount of "stuff" is going to go on and just get on with the job. A friend of mind arranged to give employees a certain amount of the product at his factory specifically to avert theft. People in the military used to bring home all kinds of things, from tools to whole engines, probably whole vehicles. This has got absolutely nothing to do with unions and bringing this crap up when a union is fighting for its workers is exactly why workers keep losing ground.

[Demit]

12. I beg to differ. Ida's point was that unions go too far when they protect egregious behavior.

No worker in a non-union plant, doing the things she describes, would be assured of keeping his job, unless he was somebody's nephew.

Unions exist—and thank god they do and hopefully will continue to—to protect workers from the bosses' arbitrary behavior and favoritism. Unions fought hard to establish rules & procedures that management had to follow.

In your examples, in non-union situations, all a boss would need to do was STOP accepting employee theft if he didn't like a particular worker who was doing it and that employee would be out on his ear—the boss can fire anybody he wants for whatever reason whenever he likes. In that case management holds all the power. Unions created a check on that power. But when union muckety-mucks get drunk on their own power—that hard-won and justified power—and abuse it by protecting bad workers same as good, that isn't right either, and it isn't 'bringing crap up' to say so.

Workers keep losing ground because of government policies continuing to favor business—starting with Ronald Reagan breaking the air traffic controllers union 25 years ago. And you know that. Or should.

[Lars39]

25. Correction: elected union officials.

They were voted in, they can be voted out.

[sandnsea]

28. There you go

"if he didn't like a particular worker who was doing it"

And that is why we have unions. So bosses can't make arbitrary decisions about rules based on who they do or don't like.

[IdaBriggs]

13. I can only talk about what I know. Unions 'protected' the wrong people.

And have a bad rap because of it.

Its sort of like the Republican party -- when they protect the wrong people, they justifiably earn scorn. Locally, its happened here in Michigan, too. And it pisses people off.

If you don't think honesty about the problem helps (in this case, a PERCEIVED problem, if you want to pretend its just stories, instead of real life stories), then feel free to stuff your fingers in your ears, and sing a rousing chorus of 'Fa La La La' etc. Then join the ranks of confused folks who don't understand or 'get' why people don't care if 'unions' perish, seeing as how they are perfect and all.

Or join in a frank discussion of how folks can be protected from this type of crap, whether it happens in a union OR non-union shop.

(Do I hear some Fa-la-la'ing?)

:eyes:

[gizmo1979]

31. I'm union and you

will not get your job back if you are caught stealing or sleeping.Those 2 offenses along with fighting will get you fired.

[John Q. Citizen]

38. "Constant vigilence is the price of freedom." This is true, and in the case of unions, where

members keep closely involved and informed there is a lot less bad shit going on. In the case of unions where

Unions aren't good or bad by nature. They are as good as the members insist they are.

But the right to unionize is precious and all important.


I thank you for your perspective and I think it's important that people know and are reminded that democracy isn't 'good or bad.' It's as good as we make it.

a lynching, after all, is a form of democracy.

Those who are upset with your candor are always upset with candor no matter from who or about what. For them appearances are paramount, yet they don't understand that it's a losing battle. It's easier and far more efficient to work for and achieve peace and justice than it is to promote the appearance of peace and justice where it is lacking. That's a loser.

People need to get the concept that winning the union isn't the end all, it's just the beginning of the struggle.

Same as getting our candidate elected no matter what the office. We the people then have to keep them focused and keep them honest. Same as it ever was.

[TripleKatPad]

2. Eloquent post, Ida

I'm your neighbor in outer-Detroit. I've seen the split-personality, too. I don't understand it, but I do...but I don't...but I do....

[MichiganVote]

4. Management is no different..corruption breeds corruption, But union personnel aren't paid what the

management elites are paid. So yes, there is corruption in unions or in any workplace. But I don't excuse the corporate hierarchy or our government which regularly strips us of billions for their self serving screw up's.

[IdaBriggs]

14. There are less than a hundred 'management elite' in any large corp.

The rest are salaried workers, and frankly they aren't rich, either. My husband, for example, considers a 55 hour work week to be NORMAL, and he *doesn't* get overtime. When you start doing the math, its depressing as all hell. Please quit trying to pretend the stuff I talk about is okay because 'other people do it or worse, too.' Its so ... Republican!

[MichiganVote]

21. As I said, corruption breeds corruption..that is hardly an indictment of your spouse.

Nor do I think I inferred that the "stuff" you talk about is ok. Factually, corruption is illegal whether its bred at the corporate level or at the level of unionized personnel. BUT...I am not going to pretend that union or non union workers are receiving billions of dollars in tax breaks, tax payer money or tax shelters. That is simply not true.

We may be speaking apples and oranges to each other Ida and if so I'm sorry I am not more clear. Whereas the examples you cite are wrong, there is little validity that they represent the vast majority of unionized workers. On the other hand, the lack of transparency on the part of far fewer corporate elites (I leave you to decide whether you husband belongs in that pool, I suspect not) has created a worm infested economic structure in this country which has buried all of us in a cycle of unbelievably staggering debt. Where we see crisis...they see business as usual.

[JohnnyRingo]

6. I'm second generation auto union.

The same "fat & lazy" rhetoric seems to apply to almost every job that earns a living wage.
See if this sounds familiar:

"State workers are easy to spot because it's one guy with a shovel, and three guys watching."

"Postal workers are all psychos who mishandle the mail and should be replaced by low wage UPS workers."

"You can't get help at the BMV while they're on their 2 hour break."

"Teachers are overpaid because they get 3 months a year off, and hand out assignments when they have a hangover"

"Cops only watch that the donut shops don't get robbed".

The moral of this story?
"I don't deserve higher wages, I just want union workers to earn less because I work harder".

It's good that you personally know the only hard working union employees.
That's a coincidence... because so do I, but we all hear about those others who slack like a wet rope.



Since 1930, the UAW and the auto manufacturers worked hand in hand... to the mutual benefit of all. The Corporations gained enormously in market share and per car profit, and the workers bought homes and raised families.

Then in the mid '70s, the Big Three discovered third world labor. Almost overnight, the unions were "bleeding them dry". Since then, the UAW and IUE gave up one concession after another to keep the business here, and hold the cost per unit to a "competitive price".

This cooperation was undertaken without one major strike in the last 30 years. The "jobs bank" for instance, was a program that was created as a promise that the companies wouldn't ship more than a certain number of jobs out of the country. They vowed to keep a predetermined number of employees here. When they got greedy, they had to fulfill their contractual promise by employing the idled workers to do "nothing". The union bashers continue to use it as a tool to display how shiftless the auto workers are.

[IdaBriggs]

15. We here about the slackers, because they are the ones who

piss off our hard working relatives! LOL!

And please note that I am not advocating against living wages -- I support them. I think paying auto workers enough to be able to a) buy a house, and b) BUY A CAR is common freaking sense. When auto workers make money, so does everyone else, because they do crazy stuff, like buy clothing, food, plumbing and electrical repairs (I've been hearing about this from the contractors) -- you name it.

People don't complain about things that are going right -- they complain when they perceive injustice. I've shared stories about some of them. Later on in this thread, people talk about 'non-union' shops being the same; the difference (I think) is that folks can OR SHOULD be able to be fired AND STAY FIRED for their crimes.

But that's just a theory I have. And I a noted idealist! LOL!

[me b zola]

27. +1

I have had this same "conversation" with anti-union in-laws for years. Thank you for posting. :thumbsup:

[Snotcicles]

34. Remember,one slacker equal a thousand hard workers, they just get better press. nt

[earth mom]

7. This is BULLSHIT. So you're saying we should shit can all the Union jobs in the Auto industry

because some-but not the majority-of people abuse their positions or there are problems? :wtf:


Sorry, but at the very least Union Workers have a say in how they are treated by management.

Meaning they can not be treated like crap or fired simply because management doesn't "like" them.

Then there are the crucial issues of fair/livable wages, good/safe working conditions, job security and decent benefits.

Sorry to tell ya, but most working class people aren't stupid and know not to shit can good Union jobs because there are problems.

And most working class people know that the alternative-especially now that the rethugs have just about destroyed every Union job in this country-is the fucking McDonalds or Walmart down the street for minimum wage with no benefits, no job security, no fucking rights at all!

Which is why your post REEKS to me of the crap the rethugs have fed the people of this country for decades and I'm sick to death of it. :puke:


p.s. My husband has mainly worked Union jobs his entire life and he has NEVER EVER found the disrespect for Unions that you speak of on the part of Union workers.

Which is another reason I call BULLSHIT on this OP!!! :grr:

[dems_rightnow]

16. Quit the overreacting

The OP never even remotely suggested shitcanning the unions.

She did suggest, rightfully, that they do go overboard protecting "their own", when sometimes those people do not deserve protection.

[earth mom]

40. I've heard & seen enough Union bashing on DU to know a rethuglican meme when I see it.

And I will speak out against it in as strongly as possible.

If you don't like it-tough.

[IdaBriggs]

17. No, I did not say 'shit can the unions' -- I said, look, unions have a

bad reputation that has occasionally been well earned, and even though I support them, I am not going to pretend that a good house cleaning can't occasionally help.

I shared FIVE stories out of the hundreds I have heard; all of them leave a bad taste. My father and father-in-law voted REPUBLICAN, for heaven's sake, more-than-a-little because of their union experiences.

Note that my father-in-law is a retired TEAMSTER, who actually, honest to god, voted against his own best interest because of the corruption he personally witnessed. It has left him cynical in the extreme. He wouldn't be able to *BE* retired without the union, hates the fact the 'two tiered' system is screwing the next generation, and *still* votes Republican. And my father, rest his soul, had nothing but contempt for the people who were stealing from the company, and getting away with it -- hourly or salary, he went after both.

I think of the union like The Knights Templar myself. They have high ideals, but human beings gravitate to power and influence, and sometimes, they just frankly slaughter the innocent, and rob people they should protect.

[Bluenorthwest]

23. So your FIL

assumed that because he'd never be allowed to see Republican corruption it did not exist. That is not the brightest thing I've ever heard. Folks who see bad guys on one side, and assume that means the other side is good, those are stupid folks. Those are the people who think that Blags is Obama, 'cause they are both Democrats from Illinois.
And tell me. What large organization is unlike the Templars in the ways you express? Name me the one that is Golden in all actions and personnel. I agree Unions are like that, but also Gov, Church, Non Profit organizations, all of them are like that that I have ever seen. Which organizations do you see as being different?

[earth mom]

39. Both your father & FIL sound like miserable and ungrateful idiots.

Talk about biting the hand that feeds you. :eyes:

Imagine how miserable they would have been WITHOUT their union.

Imagine the misery of working a job for life that pays minimum wage without good benefits.

Now that's something to bitch about.

[zazen]

8. does it really seem like this person is like a "Rethug" who's spewing BS? honestly?

She's telling her story and raising concerns that seem to be legitimate to her based on years of experience within her community, stating at the outset that she feels pre-silenced here about this because she's not supposed to bring these issues up. And what happens? She's attacked. Is attacking her and her motives constructive? Is it kind?

Can we not tolerate constructive criticism of these organizational formations? If we don't, we'll never get to a point where maybe better (though never perfect) safeguards can be put in place to stop these abuses. She's not going on TV in support of Republican anti-labor senators. She's being rigorously honest about her experience with unions within an online community where one would _think_ there'd be more tolerance--even encouragement-- for dissent and dialogue in the interest of working toward more just practices.

Bullies can be found anywhere. Even here, apparently.

[moondust]

9. "little dictators"

The world is crawling with them. I've concluded that almost nobody should ever be trusted with power over anybody else, not even a little bit. Yet lots of people obviously are.

Perhaps an independent resolution board with a hotline/crisis line or something could help stop and prevent abuses. The union and company would have to agree to abide by its rulings. I don't know if that's possible.

[safeinOhio]

10. Many, many problems on the local level of the UAW

However, I have all the faith in the world in the International. I'm retired and living well because of the UAW International, I had a hard time making it through my 30 years because of the local. I ran for local office and did my best to bring comfort to the uncomfortable and make the comfortable, uncomfortable. We do the best we can and then judge the results. For me the results are my retirement and the health I have left. That is the balance we have to reconcile.

[fasttense]

11. My husband use to work at a Non-Union shipping warehouse

You should hear the stories.

There is the girl who was having sex with guys (and charging) from the back of a truck. The mangers routinely lined up.

There is the group of employees who clocked in then left while supposedly they were working. Then they returned to clock out.

There is the gang of smart guys who were stealing products out of the warehouse then selling them.

Do you want to hear the stories about the mangers and CEOs?

How about the CEO who was binging home millions but devised a scheme to steal through fake gift cards.

Then there was the high-level financial officer who arranged a scheme for the company to pay for his kid's laptop computers.

Then there was the manager who gave easy jobs to all the women who would have sex with him. He was married and had 2 kids.

It happens everywhere and makes it very difficult for us honest people.

[IdaBriggs]

18. I am an idealist. I choose to believe there are more honest people

than not in the world. But stories like your husband's make it hard, sometimes! (shudder)

And I especially hate when these things become 'normal' to people -- union shop or not. It feels like an attack on our basic values, and is offensive on multiple levels. I especially hate that there is a price to be paid for standing up for 'right' -- the promotions that don't happen, because of not being a member of the line behind the shop, or refusing to sleep with the sleazy guy.

Justice is portrayed as a blind woman. I wonder if its partly because its so painful to see the crimes?

[NashVegas]

19. Unions Protect Working People The Way Upper Society Protects Its Patricians

If non-union blue collar workers weren't kept in the dark about how things operate, they'd be rushing to join a union instead of being enlisted to voice resentment.

[JNelson6563]

20. Ignore those who've never seen it close up and personal

Imagine if you had even touched on how the political machine is manipulated by labor in MI or the bloated payroll of the Unions themselves. My gawd we'd have world war III goin' on here.

I hear ya though. People have exploited the situation and it has contributed greatly to where we find ourselves today here in Michigan. The wingers have been handed much ammo on a silver platter and have long salivated at the political power labor weilds. Labor now is being shot at from all sides and much of the blame belongs to them.

Remember, in the political realm, labor has even made many enemies on their own side. Many elected positions in the political machine are held by those the unions decided would hold them. Earnest (though clueless) candidates have come away with a bitter taste in their mouths and bruised egos, as well as tall tales (often embellished but with at least smattering of truth) as to how they got shot down by labor.

I'm sure many who haven't been within a 100 miles of what you and I speak of will scream bloody murder but uninformed opinions mean little, don't they?

Hang in there girl, better days are coming and we know this cause it can't get too much worse (can it???).

Julie

[Snotcicles]

24. Just how up close and personal have you seen it? I have my credentials

and I say you are inflating rare occurrences to broad-brush something you personally oppose.

[JNelson6563]

26. I didn't cite at-work instances, the OP did

As to the political aspect of it, frankly I've no personal ax to grind. On the contrary I have benefitted greatly from my strong alliance with labor. I wanted to go higher and make positive changes on a broader scale than my local world and they were beyond supportive. That's actually why I have hestitated until this morning to even say anything at all beyond "I support organized labor", I personally am only grateful to them for their assistance. Sadly I also saw a bit of the darker side of how things work too. Just because I was never a victim of it doesn't mean I was blind to it. While a cog in the machine I used to half jokingly say "I am in bed with labor".

Anyhow...

If we are to solve problems we can only do so if we hold a clear view of things. Just like parenting, sometimes we have to see where our own child may go wrong, not take a view like "everyone's out of step but my Johnny".

Julie

PS Are you in Michigan per chance Snotcicles? I do believe our state to be among the very few where labor plays such a very big role in politics.

[Snotcicles]

30. Yes Michigan is home.

Born in Flint, currently live in the south east corner of the state.
I was a UAW member in the late seventy's now a teamsters of twenty five years.
I often hear the stories folks are quick to point out about how the union saved a persons job that everybody wanted gone. Over the years, I have never witnessed such trades for legitimate grievance, I have though, heard some who disagree with outcomes, make assumptions that were unfounded. This is not to say that it never happens but to the degree some would have us believe, not by a long shot. In fact the Teamsters have been very instrumental in saving the very company that I work for, which was on the brink of bankruptcy itself. Without their help with finding a financier and wage concessions This company would have been belly up by now.
I am Union to the core not so much because of the minutia, but because collective bargaining is the only equalizer the working people have. Without Unions we are only minutes away from third world status.

[JNelson6563]

35. No argument here.

Since I read The Jungle in 9th grade (I won't mention how very long ago that was!) I have known we need unions. Still, there's room for improvement and maybe this current nightmare may help usher in some needed reforms in both the unions and the companies.

I can tell you this, there is no county chair (in any county that matters much, politically speaking) or Cong. Dist. chair in place without UAW approval in MI (at least not for long anyway). Often entire slates of officers are chosen by labor and there's nothing anyone can do if they disagree. Not particularly small "d" democratic.

Julie

[Snotcicles]

36. Not even in western MI? nt

[JNelson6563]

37. If a county or CD "matters"

Labor's involved, even in some who really don't (like the 4th CD). In many ways though labor's involvement is really positive. For instance many county parties have lawn signs and other election swag available thanks to labor. Tis a formidable machine but you already know that.

Julie

[Bluenorthwest]

22. Anyone who is a Union member

Knows that a Union is like any other large organization. There can be good people and bad people. It is not the Union that makes this so, it is the fact of all organizations made up of people.
I love my Union. Made my life possible as I live it. I have also had to fight them like mad. The fight is part of my duty as a member.
I've never known a Union member who thought the Union was perfect. Nor have I known any who thought the lack of perfection was greater than the good, nor any different from other organizations. Should democray be defined by Cheney, all other things put aside, and rejected because of Cheney's abuses? Or Nixon's or Blago's or Cunninghams or any of the long list? Or are they just crooks who would use any system present to do what they wish?
Those corrupt Union folks would be just as corrupt were they non Union. And there would be no recourse whatsoever. People who work the system work any system they are given. Crooks are crooks, card or no card.

[rucky]

29. Same goes with any organization.

Unions are no different. But I'm sick of the urge for Republicons to throw the baby out with the bathwater when it comes to anything that benefits regular folks. And I'm sick of our side getting sucked into defending something imperfect as perfect and getting nailed for a dishnoest position.

[MilesColtrane]

32. In my experience...

...one person at my local was found to be embezzling members funds about 20 years ago.

The union had her arrested, prosecuted, and locked up.

Corruption and favoritism flourish when members don't get involved, go to meetings, ask questions, and inform themselves so they can vote for the right leadership.

[Radical Activist]

33. Blindly supporting ineffective union leadership is not "pro-union."

You make some good points about why it's important for members to be involved in their union and have a democratic structure that allows members to create the kind of union they want.

UE, the union who did the sit-in at Republic Windows, places a very strong emphasis on being run democratically by the members. The fact that they're leading the way on this new phase of the movement under Obama is no surprise.