Sitting down and talking is a dialogue for finding common ground

[BR_Parkway]

Having one person give a prayer before you give a speech isn't - all you do is give honor and validity to the person giving the prayer, no matter how much you state you disagree with them.

I really can't believe that this is still being debated.

No one on the GLBT side has said - don't talk to Warren and his followers

No one on the GLBT side has said - don't try have them feel included

No one on the GLBT side has said - that Obama isn't the President of all Americans, even ones we disagree with

What we have said, and apparently aren't getting listened to is that the selection of this man, given his recent history, to perform such a symbolic duty was a mistake on Obama's part (some of ya'll better get used to that, we didn't elect an infallible saint)

What we have said is that it offers the man (and by extension his platform) credibility in ways that go directly opposite of what most progressives feel about as far as gay civil rights, women's rights, religious freedoms.

What we have said is that it was a hurtful choice to many of us - and if you can't empathize with that, it's probably better that you not even respond than to tell us how hysterical we are, or outrage junkies or whatever other personal smears you can come up with.

I'm all about reaching across the aisle - but it's a lot easier to build bridges when you reach out to the first seat in the row, then then next and the next. Trying to stretch all the way to one of the last seats in that row is probably a mistake and going to lead to injury.

[glowing]

1. He's not really all that smooth when it comes to Pastor's is he?

Perhaps, he just needs to leave church out of govt.. it doesn't belong there in the first place.

[BR_Parkway]

3. Well, there's certainly that point to be made.

But it has pointed out one major thing - even among some here at DU

Not everyone gets that some groups are allowed to hate based on their religion, while other groups who hate other folks in name of God would never be ok'd for this honor.

Same Bible, same hate - different target.

[Mari333]

2. well said. n/t

[pampango]

4. Not talking with the "other side" or the "enemy" because they are "evil" or "corrupt"

is a tactic shared by Bush (and his neocon buddies) and many at DU. The difference is that Bush felt that way about the "axis of evil" (and many Dems), while many DUers feel that way about Bush (and many Repubs).

You obviously do not realize that "our" side (DU, progressive, liberal) is always right and pure. The "other side" (the "enemy") is always wrong and corrupt, so a dialogue with them is a sign of weakness. (Yes, I realize that I am taking words right out of Bush's mouth. He just reverses the "our side" and "the enemy" roles.)

Many agree with this Bush tactic (talking with the "enemy" is a sign of weakness"), we just disagree on who the "enemy" really is. :)

[HillbillyBob]

6. Well given this same group of nutwings

has been saying and doing the same spiteful things with no let up for oh 30 years(much longer actually), but 30 in my personally life experience they are not saying anything new.
Why the hell should we try to reason with the unreasonable?
Their hate is as close to fixed in stone as just about anything.
It is unprofitable. You know the old saying "If you keep doing the same thing and expecting a different result....."

[pampango]

9. I understand where you're coming from. The "nutwings" have been "unreasonable"

for a long time.

My only point is that human nature is interesting, in that we react the same way that the "nutwings" conducted themselves with respect to the "axis of evil" and the "liberals that dominate the government". "You can't reason with them. You just have to defeat them."

Sometimes there are "evils" that you can't reason with, e.g. the Nazis, and you have to defeat them any way you can. Other times there are "evils" you can negotiate with, perhaps Iran, North Korea and maybe even a few repubs. Obama has made it a point to stress that negotiating with "evils" is preferable as a strategy to seeking to annihilate them. We will see if he is right to believe in the value of negotiation.

[JustAnotherGen]

5. Can I weigh in as a woman . . .

I want to know why more Heterosexual Progressive/Liberal woman are not outraged not only on BEHALF of our GLBT community - but on behalf of themselves. I haven't been around D.U. for a few days - because I've been hunting down the credo/theology of women in Pastor Warren's so-called church.


He preaches subjugation.

John Stuart Mill shot that theory down in 1848. I don't see why we are letting a man who dismisses more than half the population in this country based on their gender - and a gender that turned out in large numbers for Obama - speak at our United America Inauguration.

This is not just an issue for the GLBT Community - it's an issue for every woman who is has been paid less than a man, beaten by a man, emotionally/verbally abused by a man, overlooked for a promotion, etc. etc.

This guy speaking at the inauguration is bananas.

I'm not 'Purist', I'm ecstatic about who is going to be President in a month . . . but I am wondering about the smack in the face to TWO GROUPS that are solidly in President Elect Obama's camp being told to sit down, shut up, and get unified.

We just got done (I thought) with 8 years of the Religious Right having a 'say in our government's policies' . . . I'm sorry - the Religious Right lost. THEY need to sit down and shut up. They got us into this mess with their Agenda - and their JUDGMENT is suspect. That includes the Good Pastor.

[BR_Parkway]

7. Right on - it's not about gay marriage - it never has been - it's about

the official government endorsement of institutionalized bigotry in the name of religion - one of the things we Hoped to Change.

Not every church out there thinks that I'm a sinner (like I care) or that it's right to give me an unequal status in the whole legal/tax issue that our government involves in our lives.

Picking a religion (or certain flavor) of it gives the appearance of endorsement. Personally, I'd rather see no prayers, but understand that that's not too realistic either.

But why do we marginalize the Bible based groups who hate AA/Jews/Asians while permitting Bible based groups to do the same to GLBT?

If Obama wanted to put someone up there to start a dialogue for inclusion and acceptance, he could have picked someone who hates his group, he didn't have to put mine out there.

[JustAnotherGen]

8. Couldn't agree with you more

Where's my separation of Church and State?

it's about the official government endorsement of institutionalized bigotry in the name of religion - one of the things we Hoped to Change.

I too think it's unrealistic to not have some sort of 'prayer' at the Inauguration - but seriously? WHY this guy? I just started my own thread - I'm a Unitarian Universalist. Not sure if you are aware - but a Fundie went into one of our Congregations in TN this summer and opened fire because he hated us. You and me both. He hates me for being a liberal, heterosexual, bi-racial woman - you for WHO you are (no bullshit about 'choices' from me) and ME even more for accepting every human being as part of my relationship with the Universe/Spirit/Good/Tree Fairies . . . whatever one chooses to call their personal angel or muse. ;-)

Article in NY Times:
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/07/28/us/28shooting.html?_r=1&em&ex=1217390400&en=5a4d84737691055f&ei=5087%0A

From MSNBC:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/25872864/

KNOXVILLE, Tenn. - An out-of-work truck driver accused of opening fire at a Unitarian church, killing two people, left behind a note suggesting that he targeted the congregation out of hatred for its liberal policies, including its acceptance of gays, authorities said Monday.

A four-page letter found in Jim D. Adkisson's small SUV indicated he intentionally targeted the Tennessee Valley Unitarian Universalist Church because, the police chief said, "he hated the liberal movement" and was upset with "liberals in general as well as gays."

Now read down -and you'll see he was a recipient of food stamps - something Liberals like you and me support. Why should ANY American - hateful or not - go hungry?

Adkisson was a loner who hates "blacks, gays and anyone different from him," longtime acquaintance Carol Smallwood of Alice, Texas, told the Knoxville News Sentinel.

Don't give up on the 'spiritual'. Not all of us are religious. And if you are ever in Princeton NJ on a Sunday - you will find yourself very welcome to sit amongst us "Liberal Lefties" as we challenge the concepts of ALL religious texts. :pals:

[bvar22]

10. It is NOT "just a prayer"....

It IS the Center Spotlight on a Global Stage for the first official act of the Obama administration.