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just got to say it: I find the notion that the right kills off people who get in their way

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cali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-20-08 09:56 AM
Original message
just got to say it: I find the notion that the right kills off people who get in their way
just as ridiculous as the claims of "Arkancide" that issue from the right.

I think it's all about the need to cast our enemies as subhuman evil doers who will do anything.

And that kind of thinking is a problem.
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Junkdrawer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-20-08 10:00 AM
Response to Original message
1. THE chief witness in the Rove/Ohio Voting Machines/Cybergate case just died...
Edited on Sat Dec-20-08 10:00 AM by Junkdrawer
in a mysterious small plane crash WHILE he was being pressured for testimony and after witnessed said Rove threatened him and his wife.

Nothing to see here, move along before you embarrass us
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cali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-20-08 10:06 AM
Response to Reply #1
4. who says the plane crash was mysterious? You?
How about waiting until the NTSB weighs in? What was the weather like? It's my understanding that it was lousy. How about his experience as a pilot?
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Junkdrawer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-20-08 10:13 AM
Response to Reply #4
11. Icing...no, he ran out of gas...no, engine failure...yeah engine failue....
Edited on Sat Dec-20-08 10:14 AM by Junkdrawer
that's the ticket.

Don't get your knickers in a twist, the NTSB will find it an accident several months from now, guaranteed.

Meanwhile, anyone who was even THINKING of squealing will have gotten the message.

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Prisoner_Number_Six Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-20-08 10:01 AM
Response to Original message
2. ...and then the small plane crashes and all their problems are solved.
Go back to sleep- it was only a twinge of reality disturbing your rest.
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liberal N proud Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-20-08 10:02 AM
Response to Original message
3. Check this link out...
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cali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-20-08 10:08 AM
Response to Reply #3
6. speculation.
as the author admits. And why not wait until the NTSB does an investigation?
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liberal N proud Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-20-08 10:13 AM
Response to Reply #6
10. NTSB still reports to who?
If they would cause the crash, they would influence the investigation.

There have been too many plane crashes that involved political enemies over the years.
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cali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-20-08 10:35 AM
Response to Reply #10
19. see, that's the sort of thing that's patently absurd in my book
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rateyes Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-20-08 10:10 AM
Response to Reply #3
7. Excellent article. nt
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proud2BlibKansan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-20-08 10:14 AM
Response to Reply #3
12. "Mike was getting ready to talk. He was frightened."
Nothing to see here. Move along, folks.
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NRaleighLiberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-20-08 10:06 AM
Response to Original message
5. Ask Mr. Kelly of Downing Street fame about that. Whoops - we can't. He's dead.
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Fumesucker Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-20-08 10:10 AM
Response to Original message
8. Rick Warren advocates assassinating Ahmedinejad..
The right has no problem at all killing those who get in their way, even some "men of God" on the right will freely admit to such desires.
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proud2BlibKansan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-20-08 10:12 AM
Response to Original message
9. Let's ask Raymond Lemme - oops he's dead too
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dems_rightnow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-20-08 10:20 AM
Response to Original message
13. It's freakin' stupid
But awfully entertaining to read. They amuse me.
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lala_rawraw Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-20-08 10:27 AM
Response to Reply #13
16. you are entirely wrong...
first of all, there is nothing entertaining about someone dying and leaving four kids behind. second, I have no clue what happened with the plane. but the context had to be told... people have to understand that this must be investigated very openly so that the public feels that questions and concerns have been addressed. regardless of what this was, accident or not, the public has to know the context. that was my point in writing that.
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dems_rightnow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-20-08 10:30 AM
Response to Reply #16
17. You misunderstand
I certainly didn't mean to indicate that deaths are amusing.

Merely the "Bush kills his enemies" people. They're loons, just like the "Clinton kills his enemies people" were, and the soon to be christened "Obama kills his enemies" people. They'll be along shortly.
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depakid Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-20-08 10:20 AM
Response to Original message
14. There's a difference between paranoia and naivety
Edited on Sat Dec-20-08 10:21 AM by depakid
If the past 8 years have taught us anything, it's that the far right has the motivation, can (and does) create the opportunity and has the will to carry out unspeakable things.

Whether that's happened in any given case is up to us to discern, based on due dilligence and the evidence.

Provided that we have the means and the smarts not to go off the deep end.
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shadowknows69 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-20-08 10:24 AM
Response to Original message
15. Or it could be our refusal to believe that people could be such subhuman evil doers
Despite much evidence to the contrary, is what allows them to get away with it.
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arcadian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-20-08 10:34 AM
Response to Original message
18. How quaint of you.
How is it there in the land of lollipops and gumdrops? Yeah sure, political assassinations NEVER occur. The United States and it's politicians and citizens are as pure as the driven snow, NOBODY would EVER be capabale of such a dastardly deed. :eyes:
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lonestarnot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-20-08 10:37 AM
Response to Original message
20. So now what, are you planning to get in their way to test your theory?
:evilgrin:
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HughBeaumont Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-20-08 11:10 AM
Response to Original message
21. Well, they have no problem exterminating several hundred thousand Iraqis for money.
Oh, wait, sorry . . ."Freedom!"

Nobody seems to be hemming and hawing about that except for that "loony lefty" DFH contingent, and we can easily be marginalized via media blackout. What's a few whistleblowers and do-gooders? Easier to cover up, if they're not prominent.

Maybe the reason we cast suited crime bosses like Dick Cheney and Karl Rove as subhuman evil doers who will do anything . .. is possibly because they are subhuman evil doers who will do anything.

The real ridiculous ones are those who turn complacent and pretend this sort of thing doesn't happen. It's happened throughout history and this era, along with this nation, is no exception. The Cheney/Rove machine just happen to have a better brand of syndicate and influence on their side than Nixon did.

Always remember this quote, and how fitting it seems in light of the very real failure America has become under this mafia:

As an unnamed Bush official told reporter Ron Suskind,

"We're an empire now, and when we act, we create our own reality. And while you're studying that reality--judiciously, as you will--we'll act again, creating other new realities, which you can study too, and that's how things will sort out. We're history's actors...and you, all of you, will be left to just study what we do."

For those who didn't like it, another Bush adviser explained, "Let me clue you in. We don't care. You see, you're outnumbered two to one by folks in the big, wide middle of America, busy working people who don't read the New York Times or Washington Post or the LA Times."


http://www.thenation.com/doc/20050509/alterman

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cali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-20-08 11:12 AM
Response to Reply #21
22. sorry, I'm one of those people that looks for evidence in any given
theory. I mean facts in each individual case. There's evidence regarding Iraq. There's no evidence regarding Wellstone, for example.
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earth mom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-20-08 11:32 AM
Response to Original message
23. You are incredibly naive. That or just plain .... opps, don't want my post deleted.
:eyes:
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baby_mouse Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-20-08 11:36 AM
Response to Original message
24. Is that a joke?
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fascisthunter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-20-08 12:36 PM
Response to Original message
25. There should be a Thorough Investigation
Edited on Sat Dec-20-08 12:37 PM by fascisthunter
...people have valid reasons to think this was not an accident yet you call it ridiculous, on what basis? What Bush and the right wing have done pails in comparison to the theory that this was an assasination. The claim is not as ridiculous as you think it is.
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seemslikeadream Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-20-08 12:56 PM
Response to Original message
26. Tell me again how many human deaths is georgie bush responsible for?
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seemslikeadream Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-20-08 12:57 PM
Response to Original message
27. Do you truly believe mobsters never kill anyone?
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hootinholler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-20-08 01:09 PM
Response to Original message
28. I find the notion that someone who in court documents has claimed to be threatened
Dieing in a sudden tragic accident highly suspicious, especially when they have testimony supporting very serious charges against very powerful people.

History shows organized criminals kill to stay out of jail.

-Hoot
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Octafish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-20-08 01:59 PM
Response to Reply #28
29. Assassination as a Tool of Fascism
It takes an order of magnitude or two's worth of new information to drive out what a person already believes.



Assassination as a Tool of Fascism

The following is a transcript of a talk given by John Judge at a one-day conference entitled The Fourth Reich in America. A transcript of the entire conference, `The Fourth Reich in America,' is available from Flatland Books, P.O. Box 2420, Fort Bragg, CA 95437.

EXCERPT...

And I thought it was all pretty strange, but I didn't have any reason to question that there was a secret government, because I lived with that secret government. And you get Bill Moyers now, and he tells you, `Well, there's a legitimate government, but from time to time, to do a certain job, they hire a rather unseemly crew, and sometimes they get a little out of control and make trouble.'

I'd suggest it's the other way around: that the real government are the people that are doing the killing, and that they hire the people in the three piece suits to stand up and make you think you've got a democracy in front of you. Don't you think that's what it is?

See, because the real government kills people, and that's part of how it stays in power. Now, if you go back to the period at the end of the Weimar Republic, in the late `20s and the early `30s, before Hitler rose to power, you'll find a pattern of political assassinations.

It's depicted, interestingly, in Ingmar Bergman's probably least distributed film, The Serpent's Egg. And, the people that begin to die are the labor leaders, the political activists, the musicians. The people who might have an effective public voice, and might stand against the Fascism, begin to die in large numbers. And the German police admitted that these were political assassinations. But they said they couldn't solve them. They couldn't make the historical link to what was happening, or they could but were paid not to, like many of the investigations that we have now in this country: They couldn't solve those murders.

They couldn't hook them to the most obvious suspects, which were the members of the Freikorps from World War I: the trained and paid assassins from that period, who were helping to pave the way for Hitler, and for the end of the political opposition there. And there was plenty of it. I mean there was quite a bit of socialist/communist organizing in that period. Marx's vision of the world was that the first countries to make the change would be these industrialized countries, like Germany, and so most of the people that were continuing the Bolshevik revolution in those years move foreward with that.

The idea of the political assassinations and their origins really go back to 1918. Not that no one was killed earlier; I certainly don't suggest that. But in terms of what we're dealing with in the current period, most of this is a reaction to that revolution, to that change of power there in Russia, and in some of the other countries, in that period of time, in the early 1900s.

And in response to that there were monarchists, there were industrialists, there were people that owned a tremendous amount of wealth, both here in the United States and in the industrialized countries in Europe, who had a vested interest in reversing that. Just as Reagan seems so focused on changing the situation in Nicaragua, there were people then who had very definite reasons not to want that kind of social change (that would redistribute wealth, or privilege, or power, to the extent that it did, or was able to) to happen where they were. They wanted to maintain their privileges.

And they had societies, they had groups that they formed. One of them was the Solidarists, made up of a link between the emerging Fascists and the neo-Nazis. Another core of reactionaries existed within the Vatican and the Roman Catholic Church: Opus Dei, `The Work of God,' was newly emerging on that scale. And then another group that had been known as the Knights Hospitaliers, that were the military arm of the Church during the Crusades, who became the Knights of Malta. And these were lay aristocracies within the Church. People that still believed that there shouldn't have been a Counter-Reformation, that thought that the Inquisition should have continued. People that used flagellation and hair shirts for prayer. People sort of like the Christian Right that we talked about earlier today, with a few more excesses, and a lot more money.

And, it was in the interests of these people to have stories about visions of the Virgin Mary coming, to Fatima, in the early 1900s and telling them that God was against communism, so that the Church would be against communism, and take up that struggle.

Elements of the state, and elements of the rich, and the monarchies that still existed, formed a bond of interest. And, in large part, one of the motivating people who went around and collected their monies and their energies, in order to reverse the revolutionary change in Russia, was Herbert Hoover, who spent actually more time in Europe than he did in the United States. He was also later responsible for the formation of the ideas that led to the National Security Council and the National Security State.

And part of what happened was that the Romanoff treasury, which was stolen and secreted out of the country, was then turned around along with money collected by Hoover and these monarchists and others to finance the rearmament of Germany, secretly, from 1918 to 1932. And it's that rearmament that then gave them the impetus to set up the drive to essentially get back the Soviet Union. And only because that drive was defeated at tremendoushuman cost - about 20 million lives in Russia and those countries, some of the worst killing went on there, and the civilians also, but tremendous cost - they were militarily stopped in 1943.

And, at that point, a different position was taken by some of the Allied countries. There were divisions within the class as to how much money should have been expended on these Fascists. There were others there who supported them, but it was time to regroup. It was time to back off a little, to try to get what they had together. The resources were more or less expended in the effort to set up a permanent war economy, which Charles Wilson from General Electric talked about. And to go into what they called the `Cold War,' or `low intensity warfare,' and genocide against Third World people, while they continued to build the empire and maintain the hegemony. And to re-establish the Fourth Reich, the Fascism, not only here in the United States but throughout the world.

CONTINUED...

http://www.ratical.org/ratville/JFK/JohnJudge/ATF.html



Thank you for giving a damn, Hoot.
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