Democratic Underground Latest Greatest Lobby Journals Search Options Help Login
Google

Rick Warren, Government Sponsored Religion and Anti-Gay

Printer-friendly format Printer-friendly format
Printer-friendly format Email this thread to a friend
Printer-friendly format Bookmark this thread
This topic is archived.
Home » Discuss » Archives » General Discussion (1/22-2007 thru 12/14/2010) Donate to DU
 
mindwalker_i Donating Member (836 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-21-08 12:31 PM
Original message
Rick Warren, Government Sponsored Religion and Anti-Gay
Rick Warren, Government Sponsored Religion and Anti-Gay: A Comparison Of Two Arguments

Since selecting Rick Warren to give the "incantation" or whatever it's called, at Barack Obama's inauguration, there has been an ongoing argument about whether this is a good or bad decision in terms of building unity or throwing the gay constituency under the bus. Another argument that has gained much less attention is whether a government function should include religious aspects at all and whether that violates separation of church and state. The purpose here is to compare the two arguments, show their similarities and acknowledge their differences. Ultimately, a course of action should be taken for each.

Ideally, religion and government should be completely separate. The constitution specifies that government will not promote any religion over other religions, but in my opinion the two should be kept completely separate. Unfortunately this is not the case. Several things come immediately to mind that show the religion in government: state sponsored holidays are taken from the Christian religions, money refers to the Christian god, and attempts have been made to show the Christian 10 commandments in one or more courthouses. Then there's Kansas and countless other examples exist.

The main effect of this is to keep the idea in the public's mind that Christianity has a status, at least in this country, above other religions. It's kind of like having smoking ads on TV. As people see those ads and see people smoking, it's something they think of as normal and if not healthy, at least not too terribly unhealthy - the people on TV appear to still be alive (probably but not necessarily true, since the actors may have died since filming). More importantly, however, is that smoking becomes associated with being "cool," that if smoking people are shown in expensive restaurants, in country clubs or generally in any environment associated with wealth or power, being a smoker is associated with being "better." For the same reasons, displays of Christianity in government functions associates the two.

The immediate effects of Rick Warren on either gay marriage or Christianity in government are zero. Mr. Warren is not going to be appointed to a cabinet position or any other government position, thus his speaking will not directly result in laws or policies of the Obama administration. Longer term, having Warren speak reinforces his ideas on gay marriage and that America is a Christian nation slightly. There are, however, many other things going on that promote both ideas a lot more than this action.

It's important to note that gays are attempting to gain equality under the law, whereas non-Christians already have equality under the law but are trying to maintain it. The status of each cause is not equal and therefore the urgency of promoting each is not equal. Regardless, both are important.

In general, my feelings about religion can be summed up as this: if somebody wants to believe in an invisible friend to eat their Malt-O-Meal when they don't want to, that's cool with me. (There was a commercial long ago where a kid gave his Malt-O-Meal - a delicious, sugar-rich oatmeal-like substance - to his invisible friend. When his dad pointed out how nutritious and vitamin-rich Malt-O-Meal was, the kid took his bowl back and ate it. Yeah, that's going to happen.) By extension, I generally don't "make a fuss" about government promotion of religion unless it has a tangible effect on me. Long-term, this may not be a good position to take.

Incidentally, I believe that making any distinction between gay couples vs. heterosexual couples as it pertains to marriage specifically or anything else generally should not be done. Whether two people get married has no effect on others - not strictly true since there may be differences related to taxes, but this is insignificant. Restricting any group based on something that doesn't affect anybody else, or worse, based on religious beliefs, is morally wrong and damaging to the country as well as to the targeted group.

So what am I going to do about Rick Warren? Nothing. If I were to put energy into fighting Christianity in government, there are certainly better places to spend that energy. Likewise there are better places to fight for gay marriage and equal rights. I already voted against prop. 8. Working with people to overturn that would be a lot more likely to produce results than fighting Mr. Warren. It seems likely to me that making a lot of noise about Warren would be counterproductive to both causes in that it alienates people by showing that only the ideologically pure are acceptable. Alienating people over something as silly as Rick Warren - for someone who is going to have such a limited effect - is not the right thing to do.

-mwalker
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
RazBerryBeret Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-21-08 12:39 PM
Response to Original message
1. I'm sick of Rick Warren.
too much time and energy has been wasted on him already.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
agentprovokatur Donating Member (2 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-21-08 12:50 PM
Response to Original message
2. Response to Obama's Choice of Warren - Shunning
Time for a tactic that those who practice that "Old Time Religion" would appreciate.

Good old Fashioned SHUNNING.

Those who are still attending the inauguration and those who are not so sickened by this choice as to still be willing to attend one of the many parties at various venues that are likely to be going on to celebrate this otherwise historic event can participate.

When Rick Warren takes the stage - Stand, Cross your arms and turn around and show him your back.


If you are so inclined when Obama takes his oath of office you may do the same.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
MADem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-21-08 12:50 PM
Response to Original message
3. Incantation!!! Thank you for that laugh!!!!
It might as well be one--we'd do better with the McBeth Witches and a boiling pot, I suspect!

It's the Kickoff Speech, is what it is, an INVOCATION. The idea is to INVOKE the presence of the Invisible Friend to come down and play/bless the festivities.

Rick Warren's job, you see, is to get on the horn and get Jesus and his Daddy on the line and invite them to the party, basically. Pastor Rick has to summon them down to hover approvingly over the entire lalapalooza.

The BENEDICTION happens at the end--that's where the person thanks the Invisible Friend for showing up and hands out his blessing to all of the good religious worshippers with their bowed heads.

Our taxpayer dollars pay for full time, well reimbursed CHAPLAINS for both the House and Senate. One of them is a double-dipper, receiving a generous flag officer level military pension. It's egregious, actually.

I have no objection to religion, I simply object to paying for it.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DU AdBot (1000+ posts) Click to send private message to this author Click to view 
this author's profile Click to add 
this author to your buddy list Click to add 
this author to your Ignore list Fri May 03rd 2024, 08:51 AM
Response to Original message
Advertisements [?]
 Top

Home » Discuss » Archives » General Discussion (1/22-2007 thru 12/14/2010) Donate to DU

Powered by DCForum+ Version 1.1 Copyright 1997-2002 DCScripts.com
Software has been extensively modified by the DU administrators


Important Notices: By participating on this discussion board, visitors agree to abide by the rules outlined on our Rules page. Messages posted on the Democratic Underground Discussion Forums are the opinions of the individuals who post them, and do not necessarily represent the opinions of Democratic Underground, LLC.

Home  |  Discussion Forums  |  Journals |  Store  |  Donate

About DU  |  Contact Us  |  Privacy Policy

Got a message for Democratic Underground? Click here to send us a message.

© 2001 - 2011 Democratic Underground, LLC