Did you know? "Wherever Christianity has flourished, racism has diminished."

[bbernardini]

The whole article can be found here:

http://www.dailylocal.com/articles/2008/12/25/opinion/srv0000004354450.txt

Methinks the writer is wearing rose-tinted spectacles.

[Double T]

1. BS.

enough said.

[Smarmie Doofus]

2. Well...non-Christianity does tend to diminish, if not disappear.

Along with the non-Christians... one might add.

I'd say if that's the premise, he/she has his/her work cut out for him/her self. I'll read it later... when I gather my strength.

[cosmik debris]

3. Obviously that author has never been to Mississippi. n/t

[nancyr]

20. Priceless!

[yardwork]

41. DUzy - although it's unfair to single out Mississippi.

[Blarch]

4. bullshit.

[LaydeeBug]

5. There is only one response to this...

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl::rofl: :rofl: :rofl::rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

[denverbill]

6. Well, as Christianity spread across America, racism against Native Americans did drop gradually.

Tensions were pretty high for the first 200 years, but once all the Native Americans had been killed, rounded up on reservations, or pushed off to Canada, racism against them dropped significantly.

[Sal Minella]

10. Racism would have diminished faster, except the churches ultimately decided the indigenous peoples

DID have souls, so making the effort to convert them to Christianity would bode well for the afterlife of the converter.

If the decision had gone the other way (natives' souls pronounced to be of insufficient quality to merit the effort of converting them), then racism against the natives would have disappeared much faster. No point in hating somebody who ain't there.

[alfredo]

38. didn't one general say they should either be converted or killed?

[Sal Minella]

40. Could well be -- I'm not familiar with the quote.

But this is one of those historical matters where the actions speak so loudly no words are necessary.

[alfredo]

46. I don't remember where I read it. I read way too much.

[TahitiNut]

29. GMTA. When I read "racism diminiished" I could only think it as a result of genocide.

It's one of the more perverted marketing spins I've ever heard.

[HysteryDiagnosis]

31. Racism against Satan and his followers increases exponentially

wherever Christianty spreads.... believe it.

[TWiley]

67. Ya, google "Manifest Destiny" and see how innocent Christianity is

[johnfunk]

7. Wherever Christianity has flourished, REASON has diminished

Happy Holidays!

[ColbertWatcher]

43. Winner. Thread over. n/t

[Skittles]

48. CORRECT

[TWiley]

68. Amen Brother !

[dipsydoodle]

8. rose-tinted spectacles ?

complete fucking dumwit more like it.x(

[tsuki]

9. And misogyny has flourished. nt

[Zynx]

16. To be fair that has been a staple of pretty much every culture.

Ever study Chinese history?

[fed_up_mother]

84. Ridiculous. Misogyny has flourished in virtually all cultures, but those with a Christian

history tend to be much more progressive than those that don't.

[UnrepentantUnitarian]

11. Depends on the meaning of "Christianity" I guess...

...certainly not the brand that Christopher Columbus spread.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

12. Oy. Convincing oneself of that one requires a tanker ship ful of porridge. -nt

[Fumesucker]

55. And another ship full of sugar I suspect. n/t

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

60. Yeah, but it wouldn't be a REAL ship. -nt

[louis c]

13. Ku Klux Klan didn't choose a burning cross by accident

Christianity was part of their motto (except for Catholics).

Some flourishing.

[moobu2]

14. "While the propagation of Christianity leads to trust and compassion,

the natural progression of a society without God is nationalism and racism accompanied by hatred and bigotry for those who are different."
:crazy:
This guy musta been living under a rock all his life.

[TWiley]

66. Trust and compassion here in the USA the last 8 years?

May I suggest he has been living with his head up his own ass all his life.

[jus_the_facts]

15. "Roses are redish...violets are blueish...if it wasn't for Christmas...we'd all be Jewish!"

....sayeth the late great Benny Hill. :rofl:

[BeFree]

17. If

You compare Christianity against other religions, then you might make a point or two.

In Islamic countries, the examples of bigotry against women is still very high.

India still has the caste system.

But compared to Indigenous religious systems, Christianity has a ways yet to go.

The biggest problem Christianity faces is that some of the higher ups think they are the end all and be all. They tend to put God in a box, point to that box and claim: There he is! God, whatever it is, can not be placed in a box.

[Fovea]

18. Of course.

Tradtitionally, Christianity has served to teach brown people their place in the cosmos.

It is just under white people, in every sense of the word 'under.'

[Starry Messenger]

19. That reminds me of the global warming vs. # of pirates chart from FSM

[ChairmanAgnostic]

22. at least this is a model which can lead to a testable, falsifiable theory.

Unlike that theological claptrap written by that dude.

[Starry Messenger]

27. And has the virtue of being amusing. n/t

[snake in the grass]

61. A question:

Now that the number of pirates is increasing can we see the average global temperature decrease? This would be an easy, fun, and quick way to end the climate catastrophe.

[The_Commonist]

21. Hypnotic writing...

Merry Christmas!

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

23. In the early days, yes, and still in some cases

but like any faith, there are individuals who are racists and who use their faith as an excuse for their racism. Case in point--the KKK burn crosses, not Star of Davids.

[louis c]

49. "In the early days" (300 AD to 1550 AD), like the Crusades?

or the real early, early days (1 AD to 300 AD), when they were the victims?

by the way, after 1550, they got worse, IMHO.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

50. before the Council of Niacina, of course

when they were but one small cult among many.

[louis c]

51. How about 30 AD to 33 AD and that's it? (NT)

[Sebastian Doyle]

80. So the more accurate statement would be

"Where ever the teachings of Jesus Christ are practiced, racism has diminished"

Which unfortunately hasn't been in many places since 33 AD :evilfrown:

[louis c]

85. Exactly

[Sebastian Doyle]

79. True, but given the IQ of the average Klansman

They probably wouldn't be able to figure out how to make a Star of David if they wanted to burn one. A cross is pretty simple to put together.

[Cleita]

24. I guess he's never heard of the Church of the Aryan Nation.

They hate everyone except themselves and Jesus, whom they don't believe was Jewish.

[ChairmanAgnostic]

30. obviously his degree is in theology, not history.

and since everything worth knowing is writ large in their good book, I guess PI does equal 3.

[ProfessorGAC]

25. At Least the First Two Comments Were Excellent

The first poster just basically said "idiot". The second comment really took Hanak to task. Good for that poster. The column was just silly.
GAC

[Dervill Crow]

26. Tell that to the Pagans (snakes?) in Ireland that were driven out by St. Patrick. nt

[kestrel91316]

28. Oh, ok. Like in the deep South?

[Raschel]

32. The Arab slave traders were Christian? Who knew....

[ChairmanAgnostic]

52. especially those from Savannah, GA, who spoke southernese.

[Rage for Order]

33. The Abolitionist Movement proves this point

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abolitionism#Abolitionist_Movement

Abolitionism had a strong religious base including Quakers, and people converted by the revivalist fervor of the Second Great Awakening, led by Charles Finney in the North in the 1830s. Belief in abolition contributed to the breaking away of some small denominations, such as the Free Methodist Church.

Evangelical abolitionists founded some colleges, most notably Bates College in Maine and Oberlin College in Ohio. The well-established colleges, such as Harvard, Yale and Princeton, generally opposed abolition, although the movement did attract such figures as Yale president Noah Porter and Harvard president Thomas Hill.

Daniel O'Connell, the Roman Catholic leader of the Irish in Ireland, supported the abolition of slavery in the British Empire and in America. O'Connell had played a leading role in securing Catholic Emancipation (the removal of the civil and political disabilities of Roman Catholics in Great Britain and Ireland) and he was one of William Lloyd Garrison's models. Garrison recruited him to the cause of American abolitionism. O'Connell, the black abolitionist Charles Lenox Remond, and the temperance priest Theobold Mayhew organized a petition with 60,000 signatures urging the Irish of the United States to support abolition. O'Connell also spoke in the United States for abolition.

The Catholic Church in America had long ties in slaveholding Maryland and Louisiana. Despite a firm stand for the spiritual equality of black people, and the resounding condemnation of slavery by Pope Gregory XVI in his bull In Supremo Apostolatus issued in 1839, the American church continued in deeds, if not in public discourse, to support slaveholding interests.

more at Wiki

There were some holdouts, but the success of the Abolitionist Movement was due in large part to the efforts of Christian churches.

[moobu2]

35. From the article you posted selected parts from

The Catholic Church in America had long ties in slaveholding Maryland and Louisiana. Despite a firm stand for the spiritual equality of black people, and the resounding condemnation of slavery by Pope Gregory XVI in his bull In Supremo Apostolatus issued in 1839, the American church continued in deeds, if not in public discourse, to support slaveholding interests. The Bishop of New York denounced O'Connell's petition as a forgery, and if genuine, an unwarranted foreign interference. The Bishop of Charleston declared that, while Catholic tradition opposed slave trading, it had nothing against slavery. No American bishop supported abolition before the Civil War. While the war went on, they continued to allow slave-owners to take communion.

One historian observed that ritualist churches separated themselves from heretics rather than sinners; he observed that Episcopalians and Lutherans also accommodated themselves to slavery. (Indeed, one southern Episcopal bishop was a Confederate general.) There were more reasons than religious tradition, however, as the Anglican Church had been the established church in the South during the colonial period. It was linked to the traditions of landed gentry and the wealthier and educated planter classes, and the Southern traditions longer than any other church. In addition, while the Protestant missionaries of the Great Awakening initially opposed slavery in the South, by the early decades of the 19th century, Baptist and Methodist preachers in the South had come to an accommodation with it in order to evangelize with farmers and artisans. By the Civil War, the Baptist and Methodist churches split into regional associations because of slavery

99.9% of Americans were christians so if they were against slavery, there wouldn’t have been any slavery. What the christian preachers did was to justify slavery in the Bible and give imported African slaves and their offspring a type of christianity that would make them think that if they were good slaves, and worked hard, they would be rewarded in heaven for it.

[Rage for Order]

37. That's an interesting percentage...

On a related note, did you know that 89.7% of all statistics are made up? :)

You have to consider slavery in the context of the era. Slavery, as an institution, had been around since the beginning of recorded history (what, approximately 5,000 years?), and probably before then. The US Constitution was ratified in 1787, and at that time Quakers and other evangelical groups were already condemning slavery as un-Christian. The US banned the importation of slaves in 1807, 20 years after the Constitution was ratified. Slavery was outlawed in the entire United States in 1865, less than 80 years after the inception of the nation. In the context of 5,000+ years of history, making such a change within 3 generations is rather fast.

In 2004, a majority of our population voted for John Kerry. However, from 2004-2008 our government still tortured people. Using your line of reasoning, if a majority of the US population did not condone torture then the US would not torture. However, we have found this not to be the case.

[moobu2]

39. Institutional slavery was already in decline globaly due to other factors

that have nothing whatsoever to do with Christianity.

On a related note, did you know that 89.7% of all statistics are made up?

Here's another statistic.
More than 95% of the German population in the 1930’s, belonged to one Christian church or another. Sounds about right.

You have to consider slavery in the context of the era. Slavery, as an institution, had been around since the beginning of recorded history (what, approximately 5,000 years?), and probably before then. The US Constitution was ratified in 1787, and at that time Quakers and other evangelical groups were already condemning slavery as un-Christian. The US banned the importation of slaves in 1807, 20 years after the Constitution was ratified. Slavery was outlawed in the entire United States in 1865, less than 80 years after the inception of the nation. In the context of 5,000+ years of history, making such a change within 3 generations is rather fast.

If the industrial revolution hadn’t have taken place, christian preachers would have still been preaching the good of Bible based slavery from the pulpits all around the world.
That's my opinion.

In 2004, a majority of our population voted for John Kerry. However, from 2004-2008 our government still tortured people. Using your line of reasoning, if a majority of the US population did not condone torture then the US would not torture. However, we have found this not to be the case.

It wasn’t a majority of our population that voted for Kerry, it was a majority voters of the some 51% of eligible voters that turned out to vote. Yes, between 2004-2008 our government still tortured people and a very, very large majority of Americans self identify as christian yet they still allowed the invasion of Iraq to happen, the torturing of prisoners occur and the murder of non combatants to take place anyway. But then again, it was the Christians that gave us G. W. Bush in the first place. They voted for Bush in 2004 overwhelmingly, even after many of the unethical, even illegal things G.W. did had come to light.

[gollygee]

53. Christianity was used as a basis for both sides of that issue

Abolitionists were Christians, but Christianity and the Bible were also used to justify the legality of slavery.

[LeftyMom]

83. What a crock of crap. Second time today I get to post this:

"In assessing the moral wisdom of the Bible, it is useful to consider moral questions that have been solved to everyone's satisfaction Consider the question of slavery. The entire civilized world now agrees that slavery is an abomination. What moral instruction do we get from the God of Abraham on this subject? Consult the Bible, and you will discover that the creator of the universe clearly expects us to keep slaves:"

The author then quotes several old and new passages relating to treatment of slaves, and expectations of behavior by slaves: (edit to eliminate broken link) Leviticus 25:44-46, Exodus 21 : 7-11 Ephesians 6 :5 1 Timothy 6:1-4

concluding that:

"It should be clear from these passages that, while the abolitionists of the nineteenth century were morally right, they were on the losing side of a theological argument. As the Reverend Richard Fuller put it in 1845, "What God sanctioned in the Old Testament and permitted in the New, cannot be a sin." the good Reverend was on firm theological ground here. Nothing in Christian theology remedies the appalling deficiencies of the Bible on what is perhaps the greatest- and the easiest- moral question our society has ever had to face.

In response Christians like yourself often point out that abolitionists also drew considerable inspiration from the Bible. Of course they did. People have been cherry-picking the Bible for millenia to justify their every impulse, moral and otherwise. This does not mean, however, that accepting the Bible to be the word of God is the best way to discover that abducting and enslaving millions of men, women and children is morally wrong. It clearly isn't, given what the Bible actually says on the subject. The fact that some abolitionists used parts of scripture to repudiate other parts does not indicate that the Bible is a good guide ot morality. Nor does it suggest that human beings need to consult a book in order to resolve moral questions of any sort. The moment a person recognizes that slaves are human beings like himself, enjoying the same capacity for suffering and happiness, he will understand that it is patently evil to own them and to treat them like farm equipment. It is remarkably easy for a person to arrive that this moment of epiphany- and yet, it had to be spread at the point of a bayonet throughout the Confederate South, among the most pious Christians this country has ever known."

-quotes from Sam Harris' Letter to a Christian Nation

[pitohui]

34. a little satire is always fun to counter the sickening sweet sentimentality of the holiday i guess

no way this article is for true unless the writer is stark raving bonkers

[tabatha]

36. One of the bases for apartheid

was the supposed divine will of God for the whites to rule SA. The covenant.

Christianity seems to breed arrogance and judgmentalism amongst those who consider themselves superior to others because they talk to/listen to God.

[yardwork]

42. The writer probably also believes that black people were happier as slaves.

Quite a few of the fundy churches around the U.S. preach that, too. It's even included in home-schooling curricula.

[stillcool]

44. That guy ought to lay down the bible..

and pick up a history book.

[Taverner]

45. Bull Fucking Shit

Complete BS

From the first letter to the last

Wherever Christianity has flourished, so has genocide

[TripleKatPad]

47. I can tell without reading it....capital B capital S

Preface this with an IMO, but all religions, especially Xianity, have led to more death and destruction than if they had not existed. I would ask for proof otherwise...but it doesn't exist.

[mmonk]

54. Yes, like the Christian Knights of the Ku Klux Klan

and America's current xenophobia and the steady propaganda all Muslims are for destroying the USA.

[Brewman_Jax]

56. Not another historical revisionist

conveniently leaving out the unpleasant chapters of history. :eyes:

[Chemical Bill]

57. Look at Bob Jones University. n/t

[w8liftinglady]

58. I must say,I am surrounded by radical Christians here who have no problem..

demonizing any race,sexual preference...even Yankees,for crying out loud.I have heard someone talk about Jesus and use the "n" word in the same sentence...on many occasions

[ProfessorGAC]

59. Wow! That's Quite The Sentiment You Heard

The J word and the N word in the same sentence. Talk about someone who doesn't get it.
GAC

[TWiley]

64. You are sooo right, I have heard it many many times.

[TWiley]

62. Absolute Bullshit I say. The opposite is true. Furthermore

After 2000 years of the Christian Religion, I would like to know exactly how this has changed anything for the better. The Christian God must be pretty fucking weak if the goals are Peace, Love, and Charity.

Now, if it is Bigotry, Hate, Superstition and Fear .... then I would say that they have hit one out of the park.

[TexasObserver]

63. Millions of dead slaves in America are testimony to the falsehood of that.

[TWiley]

65. How about as many Native Americans?

Remember, the politic of the "Manifest Destiny" was a totally Christian viewpoint; preached and propagated from pulpits, and it was used as the "moral justification" of Genocide.

[TexasObserver]

69. True. THE MISSION is an excellent film about that very topic.

The Roman Catholic Church played a huge role in the genocide of native peoples in the Americas, and various Protestant churches played a huge role in the genocide of Indians in the United States.

(I used the term "Indians" because that is the term favored by most American Indians, as reflected in websites run by American Indian tribes, and as supported by polls of same.)

[TWiley]

70. Thanks for the follow up info, I will try to get that film

If it is good, maybe it will be played at a local film festival

[pipi_k]

74. One of my favorite movies...

"Black Robe"


Jesuit Priests go to Canada in the 16th or 17th Century to convert the "savages" to Christianity.

In one scene a Native American girl tells a white boy she is in love with about some of her tribe's religious beliefs. He poo-poos them as being nothing but childish fantasy.

The irony is...what the Jesuit Priests are trying to palm off on the First Nations people sounds just as outlandish and childish as their own religion does.

Which it does.

I mean, take a couple of lesser known stories in the Bible and substitute some Native American names for the actual names. I'd be willing to bet that many Christians would laugh uproariously at how stupid they sound.

I guess this movie was what ultimately turned me away from organized religion once and for all. Everybody's got a story. Everybody thinks THEIR story is the TRUE story.

[TWiley]

86. Some "Holy" Biblical Fables are actually criminal.

Now, if you read a current story in a newspaper about someone who took their son into the woods and built a sacrificial alter upon which to slaughter him because "God told him to" .......? Most Christians would demand his arrest. And yet, they believe the Biblical character is "holy" because they have been told he was "holy" before they even read the story.

This is the fundamental problem with all biblical "studies". Critical thinking is tossed because the answer is dictated before the story is read. This fellar is holy, so we must massage and rationalize his psychopathic episode to make him look holy. Kill the boy, or let him. Either way, this guy is destined to be holy because either outcome can be rationalized as the "Will of God" to which he was obedient.

[baldguy]

71. Once you kill the other races, you don't have to hate them as much.

[Solon]

72. Silliest thing I ever heard, first, racism itself is a relatively recent phenomenon...

Most people throughout history prejudged others based on whether they were a member of their nation or tribe, not necessarily through what we call today racial characteristics. Generally the rule was that there were two types of people, civilized and uncivilized. Many empires, the world over, displayed this characteristic, and generally, when they conquered an "uncivilized" people, they would assimilate them into their culture, along with cross-cultural adaptations. The most obvious example of this was the Roman Empire, where a Citizen from an African Province had the same "rights"(using term loosely) as a Citizen from any other Province, or from Rome itself. Throughout most of Roman history, the nation was pagan, and adopted, quite freely, the Gods and Religious practices of the cultures they conquered or were neighbors of. But, outside recognized borders, they considered themselves surrounded by barbarians. A black Roman soldier I'm sure had many epitaphs to say about the Germanic tribesman who attacked the Empire he belonged to, yet he probably fought alongside Germanic tribesman that assimilated into Roman culture.

These weren't the halcyon days of yore, Rome was a brutal nation, with many different classes of people, including slaves, and while they had more social mobility than most of their contemporaries, or even successor empires, it was still extremely limited. But, one thing you can't attribute to them is that they ever singled out any single "race" or group of races to vilify for their own purposes.

[Recursion]

77. I remember a discussion on that in college about St. Augustine

Whether he was "black" or not. I ended up deciding that "black" doesn't really have much meaning outside of a few specific countries and time periods, mostly the US.

[pipi_k]

73. Um....yeah...right

I know quite a few "Christians" who have some pretty racist views.

And some of them hate other religions as well...or, people OF those other religions.

[RayOfHope]

75. Huh. SOmeone forgot to give my fundie racist brother that memo. n/t

[Recursion]

76. Geez... Islam has a better claim to that I think NT

[malaise]

78. Tell that to the indigenous people of the world

and the Africans who were stolen from their homeland.

[Desertrose]

81. Amen. Well said.

I have a real REAL hard time believing that the OP is in any way true..

[spanone]

82. wherever religion has flourised, so has war.