Watched part of Jesus Camp today. It made me angry and rather fearful.

[madfloridian]

Anger at the young children being manipulated by mindless propaganda rather than being nurtured and taught a loving type of Christianity.

Fearful because groups like this are so militant and pushy....and they are tending to get the attention of both parties who are caving in to their extremist demands far too often.

Groups like this were instrumental in pushing for the Iraq War. They are being catered to by our party which is giving up rights for women and gays to keep those extremists and bigots from being uncomfortable with Democrats.

I felt so many emotions because I recognized so many familiar things. Growing up Southern Baptist meant many chances to go to Bible camps. It seemed natural. What I saw in Jesus Camp was a distortion of real Christian values. They were actually teaching hate and divisiveness, and were teaching the kids to use a hammer to simulate crushing their government that was supposedly squelching their religion.

They were teaching hate and militarism while pledging allegiance to the Christian flag and to the bible.

The pledge to the Christian flag...I had totally forgotten we ever did that.

"I pledge allegiance
To the Christian Flag
And to the Savior,
For whose Kingdom it stands.
One brotherhood uniting all
Christians in service and love."

The pledge to the bible, we did that also in bible camps. But we did not learn to despise the rest of the world and our own government. We were taught respect, and we were taught it with love.

I pledge to the Bible God's Holy word, and will take it as a lamp unto my feet, a light unto my path, and hide it's words in my heart that I may not sin against God.

I had my serious gripes with my church growing up, but my parents were open-minded and intelligent enough to handle things. One of the worst was when Elvis came to town, and they condemned the parents who let their teen-agers go to see him. My dad told them he would decide his own family matters. I went to see Elvis.

They were narrow minded in that church even then, but they were not hateful and ugly and condemning like so many have become now. They would never have preached holy war from the pulpit like they did in 2003, when we left the church for good.

Mike Papantonio was featured in the film. He said these people were a "different kind of Christian". A caller agreed with him. He interviewed the camp director, and she still had that pious pushy tone.

I found myself being fearful when I remembered the warnings from the Democratic leaders in 2006 after our win...that they should be careful not to let the "liberal" wing have too much influence over the party.

"The complexion of the Democratic presence in Congress will change as well. Party politics will be shaped by the resurgence of "Blue Dog" Democrats, who come mainly from the South and from rural districts in the Midwest and often vote like Republicans. Top Democrats such as Rep. Rahm Emanuel (Ill.) see these middle-of-the-road lawmakers as the future of the party in a nation that leans slightly right of center. In private talks before the election, Emanuel and other top Democrats told their members they cannot allow the party's liberal wing to dominate the agenda next year.

As I watched Jesus Camp, I thought how easy it has been for both parties to give in to the noisy right wing religious extremists. It is far easier to give in, just assume your base will hang with you than to stand up when any group is being treated unfairly.

They have indeed been careful not to give in to "liberals". We recently learned the House committee had recruited 12 anti-choice Democrats as candidates.

..."The anti-abortion pitch is standard fare in Alabama’s Second Congressional District, a deeply conservative area that President Bush carried twice and that has been represented in Washington by a Republican for four decades. What makes the spot unusual is that Mr. Bright is a Democrat. And that the Democratic Congressional Campaign Committee, which has been pushing hard for Mr. Bright’s election, paid for it. In fact, Mr. Bright is one of a dozen anti-abortion Democratic challengers the party has recruited to run for the House this year and has aggressively supported with millions of dollars and other resources in culturally conservative districts long unfriendly to the party.

That is the highest number of anti-abortion candidates the party has fielded in recent memory to run either for open seats or against Republican challengers, according to party strategists and a leading anti-abortion organization.

Since our party took power late 2006, they have increased funding for abstinence only education which has proved to be a failure. They have refused to okay the morning after pill for women on military bases.

Those on the far right are far more passionate than our side is apparently. I watched the young girl describe the churches that she thought Jesus would love to visit. They were, she said, the ones in which people were shouting and praising him. What was funny was her description of churches that were more subdued. She described the people in those churches as being solemn and quiet.

In a way that carries over to how we as Democrats react to our party seemingly becoming more comfortable with groups like that....we are not that confrontational about it. At least not online where I can see. Certainly not in the fundamentalist haven where I live. In fact there are people waiting in forums to be sure none are too critical.

I guess I am glad I watched it. I saw a few glimmers of how I might have been many years ago...never that bad though. Just adamant that my belief was the only right way. There was an arrogance to Baptists even way back then, just not the hatefulness.

The anger goes away quicker than the feeling of fearfulness....that our party leaders honestly do not understand what they are facing. I really don't think they understand it at all. It probably becomes comfortable in the DC bubble, and it becomes easier to ignore the danger that extremists like these pose to our party and country.

I know they closed down this particular camp, but there are others around. Those young people in the film who were crying and shouting and speaking in tongues are not just going home to forget what was taught to them there.

I don't like the comfort level our party has with religions that want to do away with rights of women and the gay community. I don't like it, and I don't think we should be silent when they keep compromising. Who will be next...indeed, what will be next?

Those kids from Jesus Camp are not going to be silent.

[Lithos]

1. I can't watch it

I have seen clips and my eyes see red.

L-

[Joe Bacon]

48. It's the scariest horror movie I ever watched.

No other movie comes anywhere near the terror that Jesus Camp shows. Frankenstein, Psycho, Dracula and The Exorcist are nothing compared to it!

[Sebastian Doyle]

2. The creepiest parts of that movie

The kids praying to the cardboard Chimpy.

The militaristic warpaint demon dance stuff.

The woman who basically said it's fine with her if these kids want to "die for God" just like the extremists in the Middle East teach their kids to do.


On the other hand, the Ted Haggard part was funny as Hell, especially when I saw the movie immediately after he was outed by the male prostitute.

[Divine Discontent]

3. nice thoughts on what you were able to watch. The militant nature of the camp itself encourages

hostility with their talk of war, instead of just teaching them morals of respect for themselves and others. I cringe when I hear people like the lady in the video speak, then hear the little kids parrot it, because those little kids grow up to be the next John Hagee!

Anyhow, blessed be, happy 2009!

[wolfgangmo]

62. Hagee?

Those kids will also grow up to be the next Timothy McVeigh .

[Starry Messenger]

4. Indeed. What will be next?

The religions have created the meme that to not support their opinions is bigotry. No one wants to be labeled a bigot, so everyone walks on eggs shells around the extreme nature of the opinions. When these opinions get written into legislation, then the trap is sprung. "Oh, you think this is wrong? You're against our religion then."

The religions create the argument and then win it. They win it with the saturation of the message. The megachurches are like ATMs for these issues. The bodies on the ground marshal in the church networks to phone bank.

It's. Just. Getting. Worse.

I saw this movie last year and it confirmed my opinions, so I don't really have anything new to add there. It made me really angry and sad.

[madfloridian]

5. "The religions have created the meme that to not support their opinions is bigotry"

Very true.

[ColbertWatcher]

6. It's Atheist Eve come to life!

[madfloridian]

8. I have not seen that cartoon before. It really is appropriate.

And powerful.

[ColbertWatcher]

16. There's a few others ...

http://www.atheist-community.org/atheisteve/

[Starry Messenger]

9. Yes.

There it is.

Did everyone see this news item over in LBN:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x3666788

This is practically in my back yard, so this hits rather close to home. I live in a blue state in "liberal paradise", but this influence is starting to creep into our municipal government here in the California Bay Area.

Scary.

[ColbertWatcher]

17. I hope she gets recalled. n/t

[Jamastiene]

7. All I can say is

I wish I could Recommend this post a thousand times. You are so right.

K&R

[madfloridian]

10. Thanks....you could try.

to recommend it that often...:o

Nice thought, thanks. :hi:

[Warpy]

11. Braying Becky might have numbered days

for quite a few reasons. For one thing, these idiotic religious movements happen with a fair degree of regularity and end up disgusting the majority out there. For another, the men who brought this movement to moneyed fruition are all getting on in years and their heirs are more like the Roberts heirs than a new generation of true believers to carry on the cause. The cause for the heirs will be a cash cow to milk and it's going to show rather badly.

Another reason is that they've disgusted enough people in workaday land that they're going to have a lot more trouble enforcing the bogus Christian solidarity that allowed them to rise.

You can trust the fact that most of the scary children soldiers for Jebus will rebel when they hit puberty.

Mostly, the whole business (and it is a business) has been built on the gullible believer's willingness to believe the totally anti Christian rubbish of prosperity theology. I'm afraid the economy is going to start teaching them a few hard lessons of that and the tithing will become very thin for quite a few years.

The main sign I've seen that the whole fad is about to crumble is the fact that they're starting to chisel. There are Christian porn sites on the web and small time Christian vice merchants. When people start to cheat, that's usually a signal that any fad has just about run its course and will degenerate into lip service rather than real adherence.

[mwb970]

15. Nice analysis - thanks. /nt

[madfloridian]

31. I think you underestimate them.

I really do. They are vocal and well-funded and willing to shout out and stand up for what they believe.

I think our Democrats underestimate them seriously. They are giving in on too many things right now.

[Warpy]

34. I survived Catholic school

and Braying Becky is an amateur compared to those Irish nuns.

Trust me, the kids are going to rebel.

Also, the signs pointing to the end of the fad are unmistakable. Oh, they might still be able to make some mischief, but millennial fever has faded and anything they do is likely to be very temporary.

[madfloridian]

35. It is no fad.

It is a dangerous mindset.

[pokercat999]

47. Hmmmm...if you're talking about religion, any religion then

you are correct, "it's a dangerous mindset", if you're talking about jesus camp it's a child abuse fad that will have negative consequences as these children reach adulthood.

[Grinchie]

74. You want scary, just take a look at Teen Challenge

Teen Challenge is a pay your way into being a minister, complete with instructions on how to get money, free donations, gifts and win over influence. It is entirely a for profit scheme disquised as helping Hopeless Helpless Junkies be saved through Godspeak.

Unfortunately, they don't have the training, understanding or education to monitor the Ex-Junkies, and they end up despoiling anyplace they touch. They will say anything to get you out of their hair, but will continue to do whatever the hell they want to do anyway. Private Property, they ignore it. Building Permits, too much trouble, God loves us so we can do anything.

The last run in I had with these people was terrifying, because they looked like they could snap when logical reason interfered with their compartmentalized little brains and conflicted with the faith in the word of God.

[mitchtv]

68. Hey me too

8 of nuns 4 of brothers, Nuns- America was discovered by St Brendan the Navigator before Lief Eriksson. English vanquishing the catholic French and Spanish was a great loss, at least that's what I learned

[bertman]

12. I was raised Southern Baptist in the 50's and to the mid-60's. My best friend was the

preacher's kid. We went to every freakin event sponsored by the church: vacation bible school, revivals, Baptist Training Union, Royal Ambassadors, Youth Week, prayer meetings, summer Bible camp, but never do I remember pledging allegiance to the Christian flag or to the Bible. I was even the Youth Pastor of our church during Youth Week my senior year in high school--'65. When did these pledges get inserted into the curriculum?

My memory is of all grades of dedication to Jesus and God, but almost no political indoctrination whatsoever.

Judging from what you're saying and what I'm reading about the Southern Baptists of today, they are now the leading edge of the fascist movement. Very scary.

Just for the record, I have not been affiliated with the church in any way, other than my first marriage, since I left for college in '65.

I'm pretty sure that Madflo has me on Ignore, so if anyone else can help answer this I would appreciate it.

[conscious evolution]

23. The takeover of the SBC

in the late seventies and early eighties was when a lot of the fascist behavior began to crep into the theology.
Make no mistake about it either.It was a deliberate takeover with the goal being to use the church as a political tool to shape peoples minds into the idealogy of the far right.

[Hissyspit]

13. There is no Christian Flag.

That is ignorant, arrogant and absurd on their part.

[madfloridian]

14. Well, they taught us the same things years ago.

But I think it looked different. I am trying to picture the podium in our old church...there was a Christian flag next to the American flag behind the preacher. It looked different.

You have to remember that Southern Baptists make their own rules, hissyspit. Happy New Year to a favorite poster.

[Hissyspit]

19. Thanks, MF.

My parents were raised So. Baptist and I 2as baptized in the church, but being an Army Brat, moving from place to place, we really got a multi-denominational upbringing.

I'm all atheistic now, though.

[RetiredTrotskyite]

26. Yes, I Remember a Flag....

I was raised Lutheran and, yes, they had a flag that other Protestant churches used as well. I think it had a blue field in one corner with a cross. This is probably the flag you're thinking about MF. It was dsplayed next to the American flag

[madfloridian]

30. Found the picture. I think you are right.

[RetiredTrotskyite]

71. Yep, That's The One!

Haven't been in a Lutheran Church in ages, except for my mum's funeral, and I was pretty sure it was a white flag with the blue field and red cross. Nice to see my memory hasn't gone totally to hell.

[LeftyMom]

51. White, blue on one corner, a red cross and gold tassels. Ugly as sin, iirc.

[silverojo]

18. I feel all religious "camps" should be shut down

The obvious aside, can you imagine how many of these kids have been molested by the "good people" running them?

[dems_rightnow]

49. Peacable assembly and religious freedom be damned!

I don't like it, so we should stop it.

[ThomCat]

20. The people who think Christianity is something peaceful

are clearly out of touch with what Christians are doing.

[madfloridian]

25. Ah...good old Coral Ridge ministries.

That is/was James Kennedy's church.... I believe he died recently, not sure.

That church has been a meeting place for other denominations, though it is supposed to be Presbyterian. Some of the biggest names in the Southern Baptist world have gathered there to speak and advocate for a theocracy.

"Justice Moore's monument is in this church in Florida.

"The 5,200-pound slab of granite bearing a replica of the Ten Commandments rests in isolated splendor, set off by red and blue nylon sheets, on a flatbed truck parked on the front lawn of a church. It's not just any church, either. Coral Ridge Presbyterian Church is a signature evangelical congregation in southern Florida — its gleaming white, 303-foot steeple visible for miles around. Justice Moore's monument is something of a piece de resistance in the renewed effort by Christians and others of faith to preserve the place of the Almighty in the public square."

SNIP.."In such a "God-blessed America," he says, streets and schools would be safe, divorce and illegitimate children would be rare, and the elderly would live with their families and not in nursing homes.
In an American society that preaches Judeo-Christian values, rooted in biblical theology, not all will be Christian, but they can at least live according to values," Mr. Land concludes.
The conference, designed to energize Christian activists, is the work of the Center for Reclaiming America (CRA), an eight-year-old public-policy group founded by Coral Ridge."

Very long, just a couple of paragraphs:
"Mr. Cass says his goal this year is to raise $2 million, including $1.2 million to finance the lobbying group and three other initiatives: media outreach, an online campaign called National Grassroots Alliance and a think tank, the Strategic Institute.

'Intellectually engaged'
The Strategic Institute, with a staff of five analysts, expects to enter the debate on pornography, homosexual activism, the creation-evolution divide and "life" issues such as abortion and stem-cell research. First to sign on is Kelly Hollowell, 40, a Virginia Beach patent attorney who taught bioethics at the University of Richmond and Regent University in Virginia Beach...."

[kcass1954]

84. Kennedy died last year. But you'd never know it - apparently he's a "god" of some sort at

Coral Ridge. They buy time on Sunday mornings on one of our local stations, and every week they broadcast him delivering a sermon. Really creepy how they "worship" him.

[Unca Jim]

64. Dude, seriously...

Taking a nutjob's statements and somehow attributing them to all of christianity is a little ridiculous. This guy's rantings may represent a tiny minority's views, but to judge all of christianity's many belief traditions on them is unfair.

I have read statements by crazy atheists as well, but I know those particular nutjobs represent almost no one in the various atheist belief traditions.

Apply a standard to others that you'd be comfortable living under yourself.

Or, in other words: Do unto others as you would have them do unto you.

[ThomCat]

67. Actions speak loudly. What has the Christian community

done in the US politically? It's a hell of a long list, and growing.

That guy and his church aren't a tiny minority. They're more mainstream, more conventional christian than the "Do Unto Others" Christianity that really does appear to be rare.

These protests about how political Christians don't represent Christianity are really annoying. I know that Christianity is divided into countless little sub-groups, but that doesn't mean that only the saints count as Christians. Christianity is responsible for everything done by Christians because of their Christianity in the name of their Christianity.

[Unca Jim]

76. I would ask you to look into...

hospitals and hospice care and the better schools in areas of the country where most schools are very poor; also look into who is doing the real work of feeding the hungry and tending to the sick around the world. You won't do much research before you find that all those efforts are driven by christians who love their fellow humans and are trying to make their lives better, with less pain and suffering for everyone. Tolerant, decent human beings who only want to help others. Most US citizens who call themselves christian believe in the separation of church and state and use their faith as a personal motivation, not as a club to incite hate.

Dominionists like the the idiot referenced in the OP *are* a tiny, tiny minority. Sure there are closed-minded, hateful assholes who call themselves christians, but they are not dominionists. Besides, what group doesn't have closed-minded, hateful assholes in it?

Finally, look at national church attendance. The Evangelicals (many of whom are just as dismayed by idiots like the OP) are far outnumbered by mainstream christians. The church I go to is huge and all the sermons I've every heard are about tolerance, decency, and getting along with and loving others.

What you see on TV and read about in random news articles is not the sum total of christianity. It's not even particularly representative of it.

[Grinchie]

75. The Missionaries arf all over the World

They are scary as hell.

[Unca Jim]

77. Well...

I'd agree that many of them are. However, why do you suppose people listen to them? It's because they are doing good works and caring for others. Helping people to imagine a better world inspires and energizes.

They'd get nowhere if they preached idiocy like the OP.

[glowing]

21. The difference is that they stay unified by message thru their pastors.

We all have differing pet projects.. If we gathered around a set of principals and stood unwaivering for all the leftist interests.. and also showed up in forces... then they wouldn't be able to silence us.. of course, often it would mean politicians would have to do their jobs in representing us istead of corporate interests.

[LiberalLovinLug]

78. Interesting idea

Could you imagine if liberals also met once a week in massive mega-church-like buildings (built and funded tax free would be nice) where all the latest news was disseminated, other progressive struggles elsewhere were talked about and helped with 'tithing', where our children could mingle with others in a 'sunday school' like classes teaching tolerance and peace?

What a force we would be. The trouble is that now we are just a collection of rag-tag small groups which may never talk to one another (ie women's shelters with gay rights groups). Online in here is the only place we ever get in 'the same room'. And there is not a lot we can do other than fund raise and get informed ourselves that way. To really weld political influence over the Blue Dog Dem wing would be to be a more visible force to contend with.

I'd go to a church like that.

[glowing]

80. They used to be called community halls with town hall meetings.

But we've gotten really big and have grown apart from our own neighbors... to the point where we lock ourselves up and away and distrust everyone.

[davidpdx]

22. Any place to watch it online?

[madfloridian]

24. There used to be a site to watch part of it online.

I think it is available at video stores. I will see if I can find the link for you.

[jonnyblitz]

41. yes, the whole movie is right here on google video

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=3929535037535102662&ei=ei5dSYX4EZj8qwKPw_2qBA&q=jesus+camp&hl=en

[wroberts189]

54. thx...

[RetiredTrotskyite]

72. Here You Are

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0R5sdu

[fascisthunter]

27. Breeding Religious Extremists Right Here in the US

[saltpoint]

28. I showered at some length after forcing myself to see that film.

George Bernard Shaw said that "Christianity might be a good thing if anyone ever tried it."

It doesn't look to me as if the people who ran Jesus Camp are likely to try it anytime soon. I took "Becky," the director (if that was her accurate title) to be a seriously delusional and unstable soul. The creep-out factor with her was astonishingly high.

We know how these folks vote. The majorites they gave Bush in '00 and '04 and McCain/Palin this past November speak for themselves.

It is foolish and careless to allow young children to play in the attic because they tend to get into things and mishandle them, things that should be saved and valued and protected. Same for Constitutional republics. If "Becky" and her bunch are let into the Constitution, it's my guess there won't be much left of it when they're done playing.

[madfloridian]

33. You are right, Old Crusoe....

People like Becky Fisher helped get George Bush elected, and they are not going to back off just because someone closes one camp.

The children are so impressionable. Those images will remain with them.

[MadMaddie]

29. We have to start looking at these organizations with

Christian attached to their names and evaluate if they are Cults or not.

In this case it is a cult and it is harming children. These kids are getting brainwashed and it is dangerous. No better than Koresh, Jim Jones or the Moon worshipers in CA.

For everyone of these places that closes there are 10 or 20 more out there.

[Shallah Kali]

60. Some manage to get Gov. funding to rehab teens with a little brainwashing thrown in

http://teenchallengecult.blogspot.com/2008/05/daily-kos-dogemperor-teen-challenge.html

The teen challenge in my state had and probably still has a convicted sex offender working there.

[Starry Messenger]

69. Thank you for that link.

The forums for teen camp survivors are some of the most piteous and horrifying accounts I've ever read. If we could wipe all of those camps out I'd be a happy person.

[madfloridian]

70. Remember Mel Sembler and Straight, and The Seed? Not sure if religious...

But scary as hell. He harmed a lot of teens with his progrms.

He's still a big shot Republican, was a guest at Crist's wedding. Here are a few notes I kept on him.

Sembler and "Straight" which is now DFAF. This search leads to the Seed,
which was what Straight was based upon. This guy is on Florida's Council of
100, who are not known for caring about our state, he is a huge GOP
fundraiser, AND he is ambassador to Italy? Busy guy.

http://www.thestraights.com/drugpolicy.htm
SNIP...."From 1976 to 1993 Straight, Inc. was the biggest chain of juvenile
drug rehabilitation programs in the world--and one of the most destructive.
Forty former clients have committed suicide; others are insane. In 1996
Straight changed its name to Drug Free America Foundation (DFAF). DFAF does
not treat kids for drug addiction, rather it helps small businesses set up
drug free workplace environments. DFAF is also a major force behind national
and international drug policy.
Straight was preceded by a teen treatment program called The Seed which was
funded by the National Institute on Drug Abuse (NIDA). The Seed closed its
expansion programs after the US Senate accused it of brainwashing American
kids and ordered NIDA to require Seed parents and clients to sign NIDA forms
acknowledging that they were participating in human experimentation. Drug
Czar Robert DuPont was then the director of NIDA. Mel and Betty Sembler, two
multimillionaires from Saint Petersburg, Florida, had a kid in The Seed.
They opened Straight which was patterned after The Seed. ....."



From an Italian newspaper online, English version. (This link appears to be dead)
This is the shortened link, longer below.
http://makeashorterlink.com/?V48751A36
SNIP...."
WORLD CONFERENCE ON DRUG PREVENTION FROM SEP. 22 TO 26
(AGI) - Rome, sep. 20 - "Two wings to fly high against drug." This is the
slogan chosen for the fifth World Conference on drug prevention, to be held
in Rome and Pomezia from Sep. 22 to Sep. 26. The Conference, presented
during a press conference at the Don Luigi Sturzo Institute today, is
promoted by the Global Drug Prevention Network, and is organised by the
"Casa Famiglia Rosetta", with the endorsement of the President of the
Republic. Its goal is that of "preventing and informing through the creation
of political, scientific, cultural, social, and religious coalitions." The
President of the Lower House, Pierferdinando Casini, the vice Prime
Minister, Gianfranco Fini, and the U.S. Ambassador in Italy, Mel Sembler,
will attend the inauguration day at the Technology Palace in Rome on Sep.
22. Among others, also the Health Minister, Girolamo Sirchia, the Minister
for Regional affairs, Enrico La Loggia, the Province President, Enrico
Gasbarra, the Interior Undersecretary, Alfredo Manovano, and the government
special Commissioner for anti-drug policies, Pietro Soggiu, will held
speeches....."

More about Sembler:
http://fornits.com/anonanon/articles/200004/20000427-150.htm
SNIP..."By some accounts, the backlash to Straight's treatment philosophy
only fueled Sembler's enthusiasm for conservative causes. Indeed, he speaks
proudly of an ACLU lawsuit filed against Straight's Atlanta affiliate some
years ago. "It just shows that we must have been doing things right," he
says with a grin. And Sembler freely admits to leveraging his reputation
within Republican Party circles to air his drug policy concerns. The story
he likes to tell is of being contacted by five presidential candidates
within 48 hours after Dick Cheney - the former Defense Secretary whom
Sembler had urged to run - withdrew from the 1996 race. The winning suitor
was former Tennessee Governor Lamar Alexander, who knew that Sembler would
back the candidate with the toughest stance on drugs. "Mel's passion is the
drug curse in America," says Alexander, who is weighing his chances for
another run at the White House. "He's very good at raising money, and every
campaign needs people like him, but the reason he does it is simply to make
a difference in his crusade against drugs."

[madfloridian]

32. Blogger at Richard Dawkins site wrote about Jesus Camp far more eloquently.

http://richarddawkins.net/article,183,Surviving-Jesus-Camp,Josh-Timonen

"I almost walked out of Jesus Camp during several scenes; it was that hard to watch. As I listened to conversations around the theatre before the film, I was pleased to find myself in a fairly secular group. Not much of a surprise, considering we're in Hollywood. I stopped and wondered how the opening nights were in fundamentalist Christian towns such as Colorado Springs, Colorado. Jesus Camp is a straightforward documentary, with no narrator or fancy cutting to present an opinion. The footage really does speak for itself. The film follows a group of children born into Evangelical Christian families as they prepare for and later attend the "Kid's on Fire" camp in Devil's Lake (I'm not making this up), North Dakota.

We meet a young boy in an oversized t-shirt who is lounging in front of the television at home. He's watching a "Creation Adventures" video for children, and with a commanding baritone voice it falsely instructs that the earth was formed 6,000 years ago by you-guessed-who. Thankfully, in my theatre this received a roaring round of laughter. The narrator makes a joke about how 'some people say' we came from 'slime,' and he puts on a ridiculous face as he holds up his two hands covered in a silly green goop. We later see this boy's mother looking through a 3-ring study binder at the dinner table, quizzing her son on what to say if someone tries to tell him that global warming is real(?!?). He knows the answer to this one, and with a smile tells his mother how he would reply: the temperature has only risen half a degree over some recent time period, and that this isn't a big deal. It was as if he was doing his nightly homework, with his mother at his side. I sort of missed what the boy specifically said. I had already blown a gasket and was yelling at the screen after the ridiculous global warming question the mother had asked - And from some 3-ring study binder no less!"

.."Then comes the guilt, and mountains of it. "A lot of you say you're Christians, but how many of you are leading two separate lives?" Pastor Becky lays it on thick over the PA. She leads the children on through ideas of what they might be sinfully doing at school with their friends, and how they should be ashamed of themselves for it. I considered vomiting into my drink cup. She asks the children to gather around her and reach out their hands if they wish to be cleansed of these newly uncovered sins. Their cleansing source: A 20 oz. bottle of Nestlé-brand water poured over their grouped hands. Talk about product placement! There is of course more crying. There is more of me yelling at the screen, and more of my friend elbowing me in embarrassment.

They bring in a life-size cardboard cutout of President Bush in front of a big American flag, and the children are instructed to bless him and speak in tongues for him (or perhaps at him, I'm not exactly sure how this is supposed to work). Everyone performs as directed.

Suddenly, I was shocked to find a sense of relief wash over me. "Don't worry," I thought, "This is all a dream that you've had before! This is the one where the crazy Christians are with you on an airplane that is about to crash, and then Natalie Portman tells you-" No, wait, this is really happening! Can it possibly be?"

[madfloridian]

36. Trailer at You Tube....just over 2 minutes. A couple of other video clips.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6RNfL6IVWCE

In your mind imagine 2 hours of this.

In fact it is all up in segments at You Tube. Here is part 4.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lXJcTZ9n69s

Part 5 of 9

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ayO96E4A_fU

[w8liftinglady]

37. Holy Shit..Harry Potter is an enemy of god,and should be put to death?

this was truly scary to watch

[w8liftinglady]

38. for a little balance,Bill Maher's take on "Jesus Camp"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=309MCU8TonE&feature=related

[madfloridian]

39. Maher's show made the point that moderate voices are being drowned out.

And I think that is right. I see so much giving in to the extremists by both parties, and it does make me fearful

Good segment by Maher, but that woman irritated me.

[Fireweed247]

40. Those adults were awful to the children

Besides all of the brainwashing, they were shaming them and making the poor kids cry over their 'sins'...the children's sins!! These idiots supported the killing of millions of innocent people! Infuriating.

After I watched this movie, I heard an add on the radio for an after school program in my town for evangelical youth
:scared:

[jonnyblitz]

42. the complete movie is available for viewing on google video

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=3929535037535102662&ei=ei5dSYX4EZj8qwKPw_2qBA&q=jesus+camp&hl=en

[undeterred]

43. I think a lot of these kids will outgrow it or rebel against it

when they realize how they have been manipulated. Teens are trusting, but when they become disillusioned with the people they trusted, they will leave.

[Dystopian]

44. KandR.

In my opinion, child abuse. I've only seen snippets on YouTube, and don't think I could ever watch the whole thing. Not only child abuse, but extremely horrific...the things horror movies are made of.

Thank you for posting. We can't forget the power these people hold, the money to brainwash.

peace~

[w8liftinglady]

45. what gets me-as this evangelistic faith is the predominent "religion" here...

is the self-important,smug smirk all these people have on their faces. I am by necessity and my profession forced to keep my mouth shut when people profess their "Christian" views(usually before surgery or as a loved one lays dying)I can't tell you how many times I've had family tell me they regretted that * wasn't "saved".I feel sorry for my kids,in a way,as they have a spirituality,but no faith,and their classmates found it very strange.

[PatSeg]

46. Jesus Camp was a very disturbing film

I just got through watching another movie, For the Bible Tells Me So which is primarily about the church and its attitude towards gays. Dick Gephardt and his daughter Chrissy are among those featured in the film. Excellent movie.

[ThatsMyBarack]

50. After I saw Jesus Camp (big mistake!)....

I didn't want to see For the Bible Tells Me So--at first, because I was afraid it was going to be a Jesus Camp sequel. Was I ever wrong!

[PatSeg]

52. For the Bible Tells Me SO

has a more positive overview. It leaves one with a feeling of hope.

[blues90]

53. I watched it when we still had cable

And when I was still able to look at this sort of horror.

I know there are many so called camps like these all over the country and the mega churches offing their form of brainwashing.

This is just one of the many horrors that remain out of sight out of the news and out of the publics mind.

I doubt I could ever watch it again for sanity sake alone.

[cachukis]

55. Polk County Mentality; thankfully relegated to the hinterland.

I went door to door selling copy machines in the 1980's out of Tampa. Those of you who know this learning experience will empathise. I trained managers to take sales people on the street in Lakeland. I have one of those funny ways of saying "yaad" for yard. Polk has built it's Paakway around it to protect its inconstitution.

Thankfully, it is a place bypassed by most of the world.

Thanks for sharing your angst. Thanks for letting the world see the American side of religious extremism.

[elshiva]

56. Harry Potter is an enemy of God!

It's mind control. You're not even allowed to think about certain things, much less read books, especially fantasy books. I think it has a lot to do with if you read a lot of fantasy books, you discover there is a lot in common with the Bible. There is magical animals that talk (the serpent of Eden, Balaam's donkey), people fly (Elijah and Jesus ascending to heaven), and other superpowers (Jesus walking on water).

But, above all, restricting thought and reading certain books, is dangerous. Of course, it's about power and trying to control education as well as the government.

[madfloridian]

57. I was told by a parent to take down my Halloween bulletin board...

a few years ago before I retired. It was one of my best ones...a haunted house with a big yellow moon and silly little ghosts coming out of the windows.

She said she would go to the school board if I continued this anti-Christian theme. I talked to the principal, and we told her to go ahead. The bulletin board stayed.

[elshiva]

58. I'm glad the bulletin board stayed.

People express themselves through different motifs or themes like ghosts and haunted houses, in order to work through their fears. Children NEED to be able to talk about these issues and confront their fears. Making ghosts "silly" is one way of helping them to cope.

[NashVegas]

59. How Did You Feel About the Mainstream Trash Culture They Are Trying to Replace?

I guarantee you, that too is an element of the film, one that's overlooked because the zealots are so mind-blowing.

People of open minds need to take a very close note of the final scene, when what-her-face comes out of the car wash and note the pollution that greets her.

[ooglymoogly]

61. The neocons have made an unholy, sinister and very dangerous alliance with the

zealots of this country and the zealots of Israel to form something more than they are; Having control of the military apparatus of both countries. It is scary to think what is coming next.

[Unca Jim]

63. A *lot* of those kids

who go to "Jesus Camp" will become angry atheists who detest even the faintest whiff of religion for the rest of their lives. Preaching hate as transcendent truth alienates people as well as scaring them and making them comply.

Many of the most religion-hating atheists I know grew up in very conservative "faith-based" households. In fact, it was a joke among my friends for time that all you needed to be converted to atheism was a bad parochial school experience.

[Wetzelbill]

65. My favorite part is when she flips out about Harry Potter

Totally bizarre.

[ismnotwasm]

66. I won't see it

I read the bible. Often as I can stand it, and I'm trying to bring my self to read the entire Quran.

Without insulting anybody intentionally, I DO respect others sense of spirituality, and I know they read things in the bible I can't see, but that book is full of the most violent bullshit possible. What I don't understand is why they clean it up for these kids. Destroying the entire world is destroying with all the pain and suffering that entails to make a God point is just that. Genocide is genocide, tribal/racial violence is tribal/racial violence. Slavery is slavery. Rape is rape. Incest is incest. Misogyny is Misogyny. Condemning most of humanity to horrors and pain and agony for eternity is just that. Ripping the world apart because one is a pissed off Deity for unclear reasons is still heinously and unforgivably destructive.

Human religious leaders twisting the words of the original language and probable actual meaning has cause untold suffering for Gays, and human sexuality in general. It's condemned women to death. Tormented children.


Even Jesus condemned "the Philistines" wholesale. Not the most tolerant guy. His Dad had him humiliated and tortured to death in what is essentially a blood cult. To 'save' humanity, humanity had to commit an act of torture. His followers were subsequently persecuted and tortured, then, when the church gained power, those in the church persecuted and tortured others.

It's a classic piece of literature involving intolerance and hate and destruction and no lovely cross stitching of the Sermon on the Mount or the Lord's Prayer, or quoting beautiful passages from Psalms, or the Best of the Saying of Jesus change the rest of WHAT IT ACTUALLY SAYS.

One way out of eternal damnation, and one way only.

I see no way to peace and sanity and love and tolerance and human beauty and spiritual growth in it.

Only condemnation, constant recreation of "The Other" and hate. And a dominant culture based on all that.

[Karl_Bonner_1982]

73. The left must be every bit as organized and tenacious as the right

We must hold Democrats to progressive values every bit as demandingly as the Jesus Campers hold Republicans to reactionarly cultural values. If the Dems. in charge start to drift across the fence, we should threaten to break ranks unless they snap back; hopefully we can bluff them into thinking we are serious about bolting the party. As a last resort, if that fails we should in fact be willing to pull a Nader - only this time, we would have to make it more seriously organized in order to force Democratic leaders back to the left in subsequent elections.

Another good place to start would be to study the various left-leaning "social democratic" and "democratic socialist' movements in other advanced and semi-advance capitalist democracies to see how they were able to acquire power. A strategic study of other nations' progressive wings could help us to build ours further and give it more clout in national political affairs.

[penndragon69]

79. These jesus camps

are breeding grounds for the soulless Palinites who haunt our lives.

The sooner they are dealt with, the better!

[KayLaw]

81. Have not seen it.

I did read the book called "JesusLand." Dear Jesus, what they're doing in your name.

[BlueMTexpat]

82. These people are simply bat-shit crazy.

And yes, they terrify me.

:wow:

[Joey Liberal]

83. Jesus Camp is scary nt

[marimour]

85. OMG. I went to Bible camp every year but it was nothing like this.

It was basically just a few classes about different things in the Bible each day and summer camp activities each afternoon. These people are sick.

[madfloridian]

87. Yes, to me they were a pleasant experience overall.

It's shocking to see something like this.

[redqueen]

86. I've seen clips... too scary.

I'm not sure I want to see the whole thing.