In the face of their grief, Travolta and Preston are facing interrogation

[pnwmom]

by the Scientologists.

There are those here who worry that the Scientology critics who post on blogs are hurting Travolta. What they don't realize is that Scientology itself has much worse in store for them. The Scientologists "follow up" on this death will be designed to make the Travolta's feel that they are responsible -- through their shortcomings and inability to be perfect Scientologists -- for bringing this tragedy upon themselves.

Below are excerpts from an essay written by Michael Pattinson, a 24 year member of the "church" who broke with it ten years ago.

http://anonforgreatjustice.blogspot.com/2009/01/michael-pattinson-what-scientology-will.html

For those fans and media who will be trying to come to a real understanding of what will happen with the John Travolta, Kelly Preston and Scientology with regard to this, I can offer some educated guesses based on a very long term (24 years) devoted experience and membership in Scientology. .

The vast majority of people will have no idea what this kind of thing will probably entail as far as Scientology style "follow up" is concerned.

SNIP


1.Ethics interviews and associated procedures. (Scientology's "Division 1" services.)

This aspect of services would look into the unfortunate and tragic event of Jett's death being a possible result of some kind of personal ethics breach or lack of integrity by the parents. In particular the individual parents would have separate interviews about their own role in the tragedy or how come they "pulled in" (a Scientology ethics jargon term) such an awful situation by something in their own behavior.

The Scientology celebrity ethics officer would also actively look for one or more people in the Travoltas' circle of friends, acquaintances who might be antagonistic to or even anti-Scientology and who could have had sufficient negative influence to "cause" such a tragedy. That person would then be the target of possible disconnection (shunning), firing or lawsuit/fair game. There would be many steps possible for John and Kelly coming out of the "Ethics" handlings, and these could not be predicted here.

SNIP

2.Correction interviews and procedural steps (Scientology's "Division 5" services).

These steps, sometimes called "Review" would be services designed to address any failures of John or Kelly (and/or Jett's caretaker, as I believe he is a Scientologist) to have properly applied relevant Scientology technologies to their son or his living situation within the family. Any strictly Scientology-dictated ways of living that are detected as to having been omitted or misapplied would have to be re-studied and drilled till they become second nature.


SNIP

3.Technical sessions ("auditing") (Scientology's "Division 4" services.

This would be some very expensive counseling sessions and personal programs designed to remove, if possible, all the negative emotions from this awful tragedy. This can cost up to $1000 an hour. The outcome of this step is varied in its success and can take weeks or months to complete.

[Tangerine LaBamba]

1. They lost a kid,

and they're forced to grieve in public.

Their heartbreak is their heartbreak. Their beliefs, no matter how goofy, are their beliefs.

Right now, they're just parents whose first-born has died.

Let it go.

[pnwmom]

3. Maybe you should read my post. They're not going to be allowed to grieve

in private -- the Scientologists are going to be in their faces through this whole thing, making them feel responsible for this tragedy.

[RB TexLa]

22. The government of the Bahamas will determine if anyone is responsible.

[dysfunctional press]

78. they aren't talking about "legal" responsibility...

the scientologists are concerned about spiritual/karmic responsibility.

[RB TexLa]

90. Which is voluntary accepted by the parents.

[Tangerine LaBamba]

24. You don't know that

You're guessing.

You have no idea what will happen to them, and, frankly, it's not your business. Nor mine.

[pnwmom]

28. I know someone who was in their Sea Org for almost three decades.

And got dumped for being too old to work anymore.

I'm not guessing about what their standard procedures are; they're well known and have been confirmed by hundreds of former members.

The only question is whether their celebrities get special, gentler, treatment.

[Tangerine LaBamba]

32. I helped sue them thirty years ago

In fact, the lead attorney in that case ended up buying the building that housed his offices because of the fees we generated with that case. He called it "The House That Scientology Built."

There are always people who are in and out of religious groups - all kinds of religious groups. I don't hold with any of it myself, but that's the beauty of the United States - you're free to believe in anything that lives up in the sky or on another planet or somewhere you can't even see and the Constitution will protect you.

Just because someone has a beef with a group doesn't necessarily make him or her credible, nor does it make the group credible. It just exhibits a bad experience someone had, that's all.

Whatever turns the Travoltas lives take at this point is their business, and only their business. People like us will never know what they're going to do, and that is exactly as it should be.

Loonies come out of the woodwork at the slightest hint of publicity. This scum Pattison is exploiting a young boy's death. That's pretty disgusting.

[pnwmom]

37. It is everyone's business if a CHILD died because of a lack of standard

medical treatment.

This child didn't have a choice about being a Scientologist or not. Travolta's own brother was concerned that Jett wasn't getting proper treatment for autism, which was probably connected with his seizures.

If Jett died with anti-seizure medication in his system, then he was probably getting proper treatment. Otherwise, Scientology bears at least some responsibility for this tragedy.

[Tangerine LaBamba]

41. How do you know that?

You're the child's physician?

You have access to that boy's medical records?

No?

Then you're spewing nonsense.

[pnwmom]

63. I said "if." n/t

[Celebration]

76. *if*

John Travolta and Kellie took their son and threw him against the bathtub, and he hit his head and died, they are in BIG BIG TROUBLE.

Furthermore, we ought to be speculating about this all over the message boards.

:sarcasm:

[Midlodemocrat]

77. Or maybe the ADRs were too severe and he was getting sick from it.

Goodness, the ignorance is getting worse by the minute.

Anti seizure meds can cause liver toxicity.

And, treatment for autism? There is no pharmacologic treatment for autism. To spew that nonsense is ridiculous.

[Bluenorthwest]

83. Pure conjecture

You are making stuff up out of thin air. And presenting it as fact. Your OP title claims a thing that you DO NOT KNOW. A thing that you are making up. And stating as fact.
And you dare to suggest negligence in the death of a child, in a public forum, based on nothing but hearsay and assumptions. Hard to imagine a more souless action.

[Baby Snooks]

120. The position on autism..

The position of Scientology is that autism is a "mental disorder" and so there is some question as to whether the Travoltas "created" a disorder that could try to treat the austim indirectly as a result of. All mental disorder is considered a "spiritual disorder" by Scientologists.

It's the same garbage that Tom Cruise threw out not that long ago about post-partum depression. Brooke Shields shouldn't have been conciliatory about it. She should have told him what he could do with Scientology.

Scientologists are all suffering from a "mental disorder" as far as I'm concerned and that includes all the "celebrities" who Scientology uses to draw in the masses with. I wouldn't spend a dime on any film at this point with a Scientologist in it. It just feeds it. They can believe anything they want to. I don't have to support it. And won't.

Religion is bad enough. Scientology isn't even a religion. It is a cult.

But of course all the civil libertarians will claim they have the right to their religion. Jett didn't have the right to choose, however, which they will forget as they always do when "religious freedom" involves a child who is forced to abide by the parents' choice of religion.

[Medusa]

2. What exactly does this cult offer its members?

:shrug:

[Alexander]

6. I've read they claim to "cure" people who are gay...

I suspect many closeted gay celebrities could be enticed by such an offer.

[dysfunctional press]

79. anyone(s) in particular you have in mind...?

[Alexander]

92. A picture tells a thousand words.

I'm speechless.

[mitchum]

29. They claim to cure drug addiction and teh gay...

it's also a great place to network within the industry

[Hekate]

74. I'm guessing what would have attracted my parents & uncle when young: intellectual mastery...

... over one's own life, clarity, emotional health, the tools to succeed materially.

Almost 50 years ago my uncle was at university, my parents had a couple of toddlers. All were poor, all were very bright, and all had come from massively dysfunctional families. Something about Scientology attracted them and they had a brush with it. They got out shortly when they realized that each step along the way cost more and more money, which they didn't have, and I think that was probably their major clue that this was a money-making scam for L. Ron Hubbard and not the intellectual mystery-school they had been led to believe.

But my guess is that's what attracts a certain type of person. Scientology "missionaries" hang out near universities offering IQ tests and the like, after all.

Hekate

[SoCalDem]

94. Sounds like the Amway of religion..n/t

[Chovexani]

119. It depends on the tier of member, frankly.

Your A-list clams are involved because pure and simple, the cult feeds their massive egos and constantly validates them. $cienos work them by surrounding them with doe-eyed yes people telling them how special they are, how talented they are, and how the world needs their gifts. Even more so than celebs usually have. They eat this shit up to the point where they believe it (look at Tommy's crazy ass $cieno vid on YouTube sometime and you will see exactly what I mean). The cult purposefully does this, and lavishes them with all kinds of perks and gifts that the average $cieno never sees, because ol L Ron was crazy like a fox and understood our culture of celebrity worship better than almost anyone (in this sense and this sense alone he was a visionary, I will give the bastard that much credit). Note Travolta and Cruise are both Clear, and if not the highest rank than close to it (I don't know what Travolta is, but Cruise is at least OT7 if not 8 from what I've read). $cienos know gullible and weak-minded people will follow behind celebrities no matter what stupid shit they do. Celebrities lend a veneer of respectability to it. "Hey, if So and So is in this, there must be something to it." They bank on that mentality to bring them more $$$. (Not to mention the fact that truly A-list celebs are fat wallets with legs.) This is why you have the big name clams out there constantly hocking bullshit doing PR for the cult. It's deliberate strategy.

In addition, Hollywood $cienos have a lot of film/tv industry connections (they have their tentacles everywhere), and use that to sucker in gullible hopefuls. These folks see Travolta and Cruise jet setting and hitting the red carpet and $cieno scum prey on that, putting stars in their eyes, saying L Ron's bullshit will give them fame and success. They fill them with all kinds of delusions of grandeur. But what they don't tell them is that for every Tom Cruise and John Travolta making $20m a picture there are a thousand D to Z-list Danny Mastersons and Parker Stevensons who are lucky if they get a regular part on TV. But tell someone they're special and awesome enough and they will believe anything you say after a while.

The cult also gets a metric fuckton of has been celebs through their drug "treatment" front, Narconon. They prey on these celebs when they have hit bottom and try to sink their claws in them when they're most vulnerable to bullshit. They get clean and brainwashed for the cult in the process. This is how Kirstie Alley and Issac Hayes got involved in this bullshit, and they're just two of the more well known examples.

That's just the famous and "famous" people that get involved. I have no idea what average people see in it, other than it's some vaguely New Agey sounding bullshit that sounds good until you apply some critical thinking to it.

[ColbertWatcher]

4. Interesting link. Thank you for posting. n/t

[pnwmom]

8. You're welcome. n/t

[babylonsister]

5. Not being a Scientologist, I think we should let them grieve and not

feed anything else.

[pnwmom]

7. I am close to someone whose family was ripped apart by Scientology.

And the part you don't seem to understand is that the Scientologists are not going to "let" Travolta grieve -- they are going to systematically make Travolta and Preston feel responsible for the tragedy -- all their procedures will be designed to make the parents feel that their shortcomings were the cause of their son's early death.

[babylonsister]

12. Fine. "I" will let them grieve and won't feed into it. nt

[emilyg]

68. Thank you. So will I.

[Tangerine LaBamba]

36. So?

What's it to you, exactly?

[pnwmom]

40. The Scientologists use celebrities to promote the religion. I think it is only

fair to respond in kind.

[Tangerine LaBamba]

44. "... to respond in kind"?

You're a celebrity speaking out against Scientology?

Your answer makes no sense.

The simple fact is that you have no valid information about this poor young boy, and you're just spewing for your own reasons, whatever they may be.

That's akin to grave-robbing. If you've got a beef with Scientology, have at it on its own merits, instead of trying to stand on the corpse of a dead kid.

As I've said, this is a private tragedy. The only one publicizing it - in a teeny, tiny, meaningless way - is you, on a message board.

Those poor parents will grieve for the rest of their lives.

[pnwmom]

46. What I meant was,

it is fair to discuss the effect of Scientology on a celebrity's life, when that celebrity has been used to promote Scientology.

[Tangerine LaBamba]

50. Of course it is,

but since you have no way of knowing how Scientology affected young Travolta's life - his medical history being the matter in chief here - you have nothing to say.

You know nothing about him or his family. It's unseemly to exploit anyone's tragedy for your own personal goals, whatever they might be.

[silverojo]

75. You're wasting your time

So many people here refuse to let facts influence their opinions. Scientology is all fluffy-bunny sweetness to them. They just don't get it.

[MADem]

18. I don't. Abuse and neglect of a developmentally disabled child should not be condoned.

Even if the parents are rich. Withholding medication and therapy because of their ignorance, denial and adherence to an idiotic cult cost that kid his life. The MSM is picking up on this issue--and they should. A child DIED because he didn't get proper care.

From the article cited elsewhere in this thread:

About a third of people with autism develop epilepsy with many suffering seizures which begin in adolescence.
There are dozens of drugs designed to help.

Jett’s stated condition of Kawasaki is highly unlikely to have killed him or given him seizures, one expert said.
Sue Davidson from the UK Kawasaki Support Group said: “I’ve dealt with 1,200 children over 14 years and not one has suffered seizures. Where Kawasaki Syndrome is fatal is in cases where it has not been diagnosed.”

Autism expert Sean Rhodes said: “If a child with autism is not diagnosed it can be very dangerous. To ignore the work done in the past 60 years means vital warning signs can be missed.”

In 2006, Hollywood reporter Mark Ebner claimed autism charities, a major movie producer and a top actor had all confirmed Jett was autistic. Then, last year, one of John’s neighbours claimed the star and his wife were not admitting their son’s condition.

Tim Kenning, who himself had an autistic daughter, said: “Scientology is keeping him from acknowledging his son’s autism. They see it as a weakness.”

The Travoltas were picketed by activists who demanded they go public about Jett’s condition for the sake of other parents of autistic children.

[elfin]

9. This cult is horrific

and I continue to be amazed and horrified that it is classified as a "religion" and is given tax benefits.

I just hope John and Kelly get out -- but fear they will not given the long association.

Am so sorry Will Smith has joined this movement.

The death of a child is devastating (I know) and to have someone outside the family questioning is deplorable - even if the religion is considered "part of the family."

BUT if following the regime of Scientology in any way led to this sad event -- that should be explored.

I doubt we shall ever know.

[ColbertWatcher]

48. What you've posted above should be read by everyone.

Thank you for posting it.

[joeunderdog]

100. I got sucked in to take one of their "personality tests"

when I was a college kid. Some cute girl came out and pulled me off the street to take a test that would only take a few minutes. I was a Psych student and didn't know better, so I bit. First they scored my test and broke the news to me--"You're depressed." Since I was essentially in the prime of my life and never happier, I said thanks but not thanks to the rest of the program and all of their classes.

They sent me junk mail and called me incessantly for a decade.

Finally, after my numerous, polite requests for a ceasefire were ignored, never resisted an opportunity to tell them I thought they were all quacks. Didn't matter. Finally, I sent them an off-the-hook, obscene response to one of their "surveys" and told them it'll be worse with each additional one I received. Then, it stopped.

[Quantess]

10. I think Scientology celebrities get treated a lot better

It's just a hunch, but I think the rich and famous Scientologists get VIP treatment in instances when members with average backgrounds would get harrassed. They really want to keep their rich and famous Scientology members, and they would be wise to not hurt their feelings or piss them off in any way. Famous scientologists boost Scientology's image better than any advertising, and they know it.

[pnwmom]

15. I've considered that -- it's certainly possible. n/t

[MADem]

11. The MSM is finally starting to ask questions. About time. Their neglect hastened that child's

death. Who in their right MIND leaves a child having grand mal seizures twice weekly alone for even a SECOND?

The kid was abandoned for over ten hours. Poor thing--unmedicated, ignored, no therapy--what a hellish life.

http://www.mirror.co.uk/latest-news/celebs/2009/01/03/riddle-of-john-travolta-s-son-could-he-have-been-saved-115875-21013277/

Riddle of John Travolta's son - could he have been saved?


EXCLUSIVE by Adrian Butler and Kate Mansey 3/01/2009

Claims that Jett, 16, suffered from condition he was never treated for is denied by his devastated father.

The death of John Travolta’s son was shrouded in controversy last night amid claims that 16-year-old Jett suffered from a condition he was never treated for.....Last night a close friend of Joey Travolta, John’s film-maker brother, gave an insight into family divisions caused by the youngster’s illness.

The friend said Joey and John regularly argued about what was wrong with Jett. John did not believe it was autism, a condition not recognised by Scientology. Joey, 58, learned about the disorder when he interviewed 65 autistic youngsters for a documentary called Normal People Scare Me.

The idea of the film was to teach people about the syndrome, which can spark violent seizures. Joey also formed the group Actors for Autism which helps sufferers make films.

The friend said: “Joey could see Jett in every one of those 65 kids he spoke to. It was so obvious Jett was autistic just from spending five minutes with him, but the cruel fact of their religion meant his parents simply did not accept it.”

Scientologists believe mental illness is psychosomatic, that people who suffer from it are defective human beings, and teach that it should be treated through spiritual healing. They reject the use of drugs to treat mental conditions.

The friend said: “Parents who had children in the same classes as Jett would gather round after school and say, ‘Are they in denial or what?’”

The FULL ARTICLE is really worth a read.

[Warren Stupidity]

17. Oh so he died from autism?

Is that your bullshit claim? Perhaps he had one of those fatal autism seizures? :wtf:

[MADem]

20. Try reading the article, oh aptly named one. The full article. SLOWLY.

Digest the full thing, now. Read carefully, for full comprehension.

THEN comment.

He was denied appropriate care and MEDICATION. Medication that could have controlled those seizures he was having every three or four days.

The one slinging the bullshit here isn't me. The one making an ass of himself looks out of your mirror, too.

You apparently know jackshit about autism, and you're apparently PROUD of that fact, as well. Seizures are very common in autistic adolescents after they reach puberty--a fourth of kids with autism develop seizures at that time. Further, about half of all autism patients are on some sort of prophylactic anti-seizure medication. This kid not only was unmedicated, he was left ALONE.

Abuse and neglect.

[Tangerine LaBamba]

38. You're blowing smoke

Do you have some sort of special information about the medication young Travolta required?

Do you have access to his medical records?

No?

Well, until you do, I'd urge you to withhold whatever condemnation you're flinging at people you won't ever even meet.

It's a personal tragedy, and it's their business only. Not yours. Not mine.

Alas, it's theirs.

[Name removed]

49. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[joeunderdog]

101. where there's smoke, there's fire. Check this out...

http://www.xenu.net/archive/FBI/fbi-306.html

What is interesting is that L. Ron Hubbard, Scientology's founder, was likely Schizophrenic, rejected the idea of mental disability and the need for medication, was investigated by the Medical Board for illegally providing medical instruction without a license and offered treatment with a gizmo called a Hubbard Electrometer which was said to cure illnesses despite the fact that there was no evidence whatsoever to support this claim.

The "church" of Scientology was built by someone with a fragile grip on reality and no experience in medicine, but it offers strong philosophical statements about medical conditions. It certainly would lead to questions about how this apparently disabled adolescent was cared for. Asking these kinds of questions is what people do on message boards, and I don't see anyone convicting the Travolta's of Murder, either. It's ALL of our business when people who can't take care of themselves are not taken care of. Asking the tough questions means we care.

If this happened in a group home, heads would be rolling.

[MADem]

116. If this happened in a group home, it would be manslaughter at a minimum. nt

[hoboken123]

117. Your ability to divine unknowable facts is impressive

But knocking particulars of a religion's founder seems like a pointless effort. It'd take years just to get through all the crazy Christians.

[pnwmom]

21. A good article. Thanks. I did read the whole thing. n/t

[MADem]

23. My heart breaks ...... for that child. He didn't have a chance.

His uncle had it right.

[Bluenorthwest]

86. You are making a criminal accusation. Do you understand that?

I've never met a religion I liked. Scientology, Saddleback Church, the Vatican, all the same money game to most with a mind. But to accuse people you do not know of heinous actions based on assuptions about their religion is simply wrong. It is just wrong. You do not know these people, any of them. Nor do you know a thing about their child's medical treatment.
Speculation is speculation. And to speculate about such things is wrong. There are pages of information you could post about Scientology's faults and motives that have nothing to do with a dead kid and his weeping parents.
Accusing people of such a thing should not be done lightly, nor without the proper facts.

[MADem]

115. Yeah., so? I think they withheld antiseizure medication from that child, and that's why

he died from a seizure. Unless the people who did the autopsy are "assuming" or "speculating" too. I think the parents' actions, or their lack of actions as a consequence of their membership in that cult, contributed to the death of that kid. I think an AG ought to look into it, too--but since they cremated the body, they've done a good job of muddying those waters, even with a halfassed Bahamian autopsy.

If the dead kid were in a group home setting, receiving regular therapy and a cocktail of antiseizure meds, he'd probably have had at least some language skills and be better controlled, seizure wise. He might also be free of any problematic behavior problems that may or may have not arisen.

If you think that speculation is "wrong," then by all means, don't do it.

But you shouldn't try to control the behavior of others on a DISCUSSION board.

The idea isn't to tiptoe around and hold your teacup with your pinky in the air, the idea is to air opinion.

As far as this issue goes, that's mine. If you don't like it, fine. But don't ever try to muzzle people--that's just not on.

[jobycom]

13. This Michael Pattinson seems like the worst kind of filth.

I don't know and don't care what Travolta and Preston go through with their religion. They can walk away if Scientology fails them, or bear it. Their choice, and I won't waste a moment wondering about it. I don't understand anyone's religion, anyway, but that doesn't mean I begrudge them it.

But what kind of sick fucking piece of filthy goddamned shit uses a tragedy like this to grind his own personal favorite ax? Even if everything he says is true, he's still far worse as a human being than anything he describes, for using their ultimate pain for his own personal vanity.

[pnwmom]

25. He's someone who was hurt by Scientology, and he's trying to prevent them

from hurting others.

Scientology is going to use this death to make money from the Travoltas, by convincing them that it was their shortcomings that brought on their son's death, and that they need to pay through the nose to heal themselves.

That is the real filth, as far as I'm concerned.

[Tangerine LaBamba]

30. Quite like the Catholic Church,

that will sing masses for the dead if you pay for them, who will conduct special novenas for your dead loved ones if you pay them.

Like the Jews, who will do the daily prayers of mourning for you if you pay them.

Catch up - all "reglions" sell their services, wares, and beliefs. People just choose their different poisons: Catholicism, Judaism, Protestantism, all of them.

Money talks everywhere. Ask God.

[pnwmom]

33. You don't have to pay anything to the Catholic Church to have masses said

for a relative who has died. Not one cent.

[Tangerine LaBamba]

34. Not in my old diocese

They were sold. You didn't "have" to pay, but "donations" were strongly suggested.

[emilyg]

69. I had many masses saif for my

parents. Never paid a penny.

[jobycom]

53. I've been hurt by many things in life, but I don't use other people's grief

as an excuse to attack those things.

As for who is using this tragedy to make money, seems clear to me that Pattinson is the lead offender there. The only person I see him trying to help is himself.

[Tangerine LaBamba]

27. Agreed

It's a private tragedy, and it's none of our business. People who exploit this horrendous event for their own personal agendae are hateful scum.

And the hateful scum here is named Michael Pattison.

[sundog]

42. i think he has a du account actually

[jobycom]

51. Wouldn't change my response if he does. nt

[sundog]

54. i agree with you

there are just several du'ers who are willing to grind a personal axe at any expense on this issue

those threads are easy to find

[ColbertWatcher]

56. If only there is a way for $cientology to get revenge on him?

Maybe follow him around, ruin his life perhaps?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fair_Game_(Scientology)">Wikip*dia

[Warren Stupidity]

14. Just a guess here, but aren't the Travolta adults with free will?

So if they decide to participate or not in whatever horrors the dreaded scientology cult has in mind for them, wouldn't that be THEIR GODDAMN BUSINESS and like NOT YOURS?

What the fuck is wrong with you people?

The first amendment is quite clear: how you or I or even John Travolta chooses to observe or not observe religious practices is simply nobody else's business.

[babylonsister]

26. Heh. Good job. True. nt

[pnwmom]

31. Their CHILDREN aren't adults with free will. And one of them just died --

and there is a valid question as to whether this child was getting medical treatment for autism-related seizures, since Scientologists don't believe in either autism or psychiatric care.

[Tangerine LaBamba]

35. You and I know as much about the Travolta children

as they know about our kids.

It's no one's business.

[babylonsister]

39. None of your damned business for starters. Leave it to a doctor

to determine if this son died because his parents were somehow culpable or not interested.

Must be nice to feel so above other people. I'm sure your background is stellar also.

Even if it is, who cares, and why do you so much?

[pnwmom]

43. Interesting to see so many Scientology apologists around here. n/t

[babylonsister]

47. Hahaha! How about respecting a family that lost a child?

That's my aim, and I think you could consider doing likewise. Would that be so difficult, instead of slamming this family who is hurting so bad?

[Tangerine LaBamba]

52. Thank you

There are so few of us humans here..............

[pnwmom]

61. I'm surprised to see DUers defending a "church" that is so authoritarian

and fundamentalist (adhering literally to their written scriptures).

[MADem]

66. The aggressiveness in attempting to stifle discussion on a discussion board is certainly odd.

It's a very organized cult. I'm surprised at the number of people defending them, too. It's not like that kid had any options. And he should have had.

I find this deeply disturbing, too: http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/thedishrag/2009/01/avid-critics-of.html

Here's the original link, from 2007. That's CREEPY: http://www.wwtdd.com/post.phtml?pk=2268&page_number=2

[Tangerine LaBamba]

67. Why?

There's a Constitutional guarantee regarding religion.

People choose. Is there anything more progressive than that?

People like you are the ones the Founding Fathers fled in order to be free.

See, you don't get to decide what others choose to embrace. Neither do I. The difference between us is that I understand that and you obviously do not.

[Midlodemocrat]

81. I am not defending Scientology. I am defending grieving parents

from morans on the internet who are Fristing them. :eyes:

[WolverineDG]

88. It's called the First Amendment

Don't like it? Too bad.

dg

[pnwmom]

60. I'm not slamming the family. I'm pointing out that Scientology is about to add

to their misery -- in a way that none of us ever could.

[MADem]

55. I am rather shocked too. Perhaps it is one of those 'swarms' they talk about.

Where they send out the cult defenders, en masse, to shout down discussion.

A child who was not on anti-seizure medication is dead, after having a seizure.

Questions need to be asked about his care and treatment. Unless, of course, one views children as property to be disposed of without consequences.

[ColbertWatcher]

59. Being parents, I am sure Travolta and Preston will not rest ...

... until they find out exactly what happened to their son.

That's what I would do.

And I'm sure other parents would do the same thing.

[MADem]

64. They know what happened to him.

He had a seizure. He hit his head. The blow to the head likely killed him. He lay on the bathroom floor for ten or more hours. No one checked on him.

They chat in the Bahamas, and this information is already out there--I doubt we'll find out too many surprises from this two-doc autopsy they're doing.

They've already cooked up a lame and lousy "excuse" for withholding medicine from the child--one that no doctor with a license to practice medicine in the US finds credible. They apparently didn't even try to find another mix of anti-seizure meds, even though there are dozens of them...because he had the extremely rare side effect of liver toxicity on ONE medication, Depakote--so they said. There are plenty of medications that don't have that side effect. Yet they didn't put him on any other drugs. They just let him have huge seizures twice a week...and they left him ALONE. With a fucking BABY monitor. And "chimes" on the door so he wouldn't run off. And a "manny" sleeping in the next room.

Jesus.

And I'd just love to hear from the "neurosurgeons" they said they consulted. Neurosurgeons? Were they planning on, what, doing a hemispherectomy on the child?

Every statement by the lawyer is like a giant foot crammed in their collective mouths. They keep digging a hole with every bullshit elucidation they make...and the MSM is picking up on it, FINALLY....as they SHOULD.

If the Travoltas were trailer park trash making twelve grand a year and they treated their autistic kid like this, with that level of neglect, there wouldn't be an outpouring of sympathy. There would be demands for explanations and visits from child protective services well before the kid ever got to the point where he seized and died. The child would have been put in an institutional or small group home setting and been given medication and therapy, and maybe he might have improved.

We will never know what adequate treatment might have done for that kid. It's a crying shame, and it may be a crime.

[ColbertWatcher]

65. I hope they can get away from that cult.

It leaves nothing but death and heartache in its wake.

[SidDithers]

85. +1...

great freakin' post. :applause:

Sid

[AndrewP]

110. Truth

[emilyg]

70. I'm not one. Just feel

it's not my business to pass judgment, I don't know enough. Perhaps after the autopsy I might feel different.

[pnwmom]

71. The OP wasn't about passing judgment on the Travoltas.

It was about the process that Scientology is about to subject them to.

[Warren Stupidity]

80. I responded to an article about how John and Kelly

were now going to be subject to the horrible abuse their religion is going to force on them. That had nothing to do with any children.

[WolverineDG]

87. Well, it's none of your business

and people are free to believe what they want & raise their children in their religion, whether you like it or not.

If you feel so strongly that the Travoltas abused/neglected their son why don't you call CPS & have them remove their daughter from them instead of posting on an internet message board?

dg

[jobycom]

57. Amen. nt

[alarimer]

16. That cult is hideous.

They have been responsible for deaths themselves, and I don't mean by encouraging their adherents to avoid needed medication. I think the woman's name was Lisa McPherson and, apparently, they (being members or workers at the Clearwater HQ) caused her death. I am unclear on the details but I remember reading about this when I lived in St. Petersburg, FL.

It is just a horrible cult, no matter how you slice it.

[Blue_In_AK]

19. Maybe through this process John and Kelly

will come to realize how much of a fraud Scientology is. In that respect, something positive could be gained from this tragic event. I feel very sad for them - I've lost parents and a brother, but I can't even imagine the pain of losing one of my children.

[ColbertWatcher]

45. According to Wikip*dia ...

...

People taking pharmacological doses of niacin (1.5 - 6 g per day) often experience side-effects that can include dermatological complaints such as facial flushing and itching, dry skin, skin rashes including acanthosis nigricans. Gastrointestinal complaints, such as dyspepsia (indigestion) and liver toxicity (fulminant hepatic failure) have also been reported. Also reported include hyperglycemia, cardiac arrhythmias, birth defects, and orthostasis.<20>

(Emphasis added by DU poster)
--http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vitamin_B3#Toxicity">Vitamin B3 Toxicity

[pnwmom]

62. I hope the Bahamaian authorities are allowed to carry out their work without

harassment and/or suppression by the Scientologists.

[Warren Stupidity]

98. Wow. Now the evil scientologists are tin-foiling up the autopsy huh?

Just in case the report doesn't substantiate the accusations being flung around here, you can always claim that the Evil Cult messed it up. Good work there. Way to think ahead.

[ColbertWatcher]

107. I hope so too. n/t

[Avalux]

58. The Travoltas are not victims of Scientology. They have chosen, willingly, to follow.

None of us know the details of Jett Travolta's medical problems but if mental impairment was involved, Scientology prevents acknowledgment and treatment of such.

Their dedication to Scientology may have kept them from treating their son appropriately. It is tragic and terribly sad but ultimately, their choice.

Perhaps this life-changing event will open their eyes and free them from Scientology's grasp. Perhaps when the interrogators come knocking, they'll tell them to go to hell.

[BigBearJohn]

72. You have to be kidding.

John Travolta is one of scientology's most important and highly valued members,
right up there right next to Tom Cruise. They will treat him like a piece of fine
china, of that I am 100% sure.

There is NO WAY in hell the leaders of scientology will do anything
to upset Travlolta. They can't afford to.

[greguganus]

108. I agree. The Travolta family will get preferential treatment. They won't kill the golden goose. n/t

[zalinda]

73. From someone who left on good terms.

I was a Scientologist, maybe still am, but not practicing. I left because I had to, moved away. I kept in touch for awhile, but that eventually faded away. I have no axe to grind with them, and they did not stalk me. That being said, I will try to explain a little about the "cult", that has been misrepresented.

Yes, they will go through an Ethics interview, but it is not a punishment. It is a fact finding interview, period. If something was amiss this is where it would be found. As for anything else after this interview, it would be up to those involved.

Next, Scientology does not stop people from going to a doctor, what they do want to stop is pill pushers. Those doctors who give pills to gloss over a problem instead of getting to the root of the problem. They believe that sometimes an illness can be psychosomatic rather than physical. But, in no way would they stop someone from taking medication that is needed.

And no, Scientology does not try to cure "teh gay". If you are gay, you are gay, period. But, there are people who are upset that they have this urge and try to find out if it is mental or physical. If a gay person who had upsetting urges to be straight went in to find out why, they would treat him exactly the same way to help him find his peace.

Kelly never said that Scientology cured her son, she said it helped, period.

I know that there is a lot of misinformation out there on Scientology, and when anyone wants to prove a point, they point to the exact same articles. Just like when someone is fired from a job, some people will denigrate the company to all who will listen. It also happens in Scientology. It happens in every type of relationship possible, just talk to an ex-spouse.

Because an article says that Jett had Autism, and his uncle says he did, does not mean that he did. Taking him to a neurosurgeon means they were trying to see if he had something in his brain that was causing the seizures. That's what responsible parents do, they explore all avenues. Did anyone stop to think that this kid may have been withdrawn around strangers because he was shy? I'm sorry, but I can see a kid behaving in one way in a grocery store and assume all types of things about the kid, and I could be totally wrong. There have even been experts who have gotten diagnoses wrong, so let's not assume that a lay person would be able to diagnose a problem better than the family doctor.

I know many of you hate Scientology, and that's fine, but hate it for the truth, not something that is made up. From what I've read John loved his son, and would have done anything for him. As one guy put it, John thought that his son "hung the moon".

So far, there have been conflicting reports. The truth is coming out, here is an interview with the EMT at the scene. http://www.radaronline.com/exclusives/

Before you condemn the Travoltas let the truth come out first. Adding to their grief by blaming them, is not the "progressive" thing to do.

zalinda

[renate]

91. thank you

You were brave to defend Scientology here and it's useful to get the point of view of someone who knows about it first-hand. :hi:

[Beaverhausen]

105. thanks for this post

I have many friends who are scientologists and are happy, successful people.

I am sick of the misinformation spewed here by people with no clue about it. The websites people are linking to are laughable to say the least.

[BigBearJohn]

111. You speak the truth,. Zalinda. You are indeed brave to defend SCN on this board.

Most people here know little to nothing about Scientology
from personal experience -- but only from listening to those
who wish to destroy it.

40 years ago I took several courses in Scientology and still
have several great friends who are Scientologists who never
try to "recruit" me or get me to come back.

I was born and raised a Catholic. I have no desire to destroy
or put down the catholics. It still hurts when people criticise
the church. Still, the church has earned criticism, but it still
hurts to hear it. So, I let people blow steam.

I used to be a Scientologist. I no longer am. However, I did
find some useful solutions to life thru my study of Scientology.
I don't agree with quite a few of the approaches to life, but I
did change my life positively as a young man through studying it.
I think Scientology is deserving of criticism, but the level of
hatred I see thrown at it goes overboard.

I'm sure most religions are worthy of criticism. And so are most
people. Myself included.

[Bluenorthwest]

82. Repulsive- I mean this OP

This is vile. Do you understand that you are speaking about human beings? Do you? Really? This posting quotes someone who also has zero direct knowlege of this situation. Zero. And you post it, because you think of people in the public eye as dolls for your inspection. A repulsive thing to do.
I hope to all that is holy that you are here each day raising the roof about extreme relgionist dogmas within the Democratic Party, a subject that actually has to do with 'Democratic' and not some personal National Enquirer vendetta.
Your sort of thinkning is scary as hell to me. Just know that. Far worse than Scientology. Your mindset.

[Midlodemocrat]

84. Wish I could rec this post.

:thumbsup:

[babylonsister]

89. Thanks, and amen. nt

[babythunder]

96. Why participate in the thread?

couldn't you just as easily ignore it because you find it so repulsive? :shrug:

[Warren Stupidity]

97. This is a message board where we exchange opinions.

It is not a group hug session. As you have been told before, newbie, you post here and you are likely to get your opinions challenged. If you have a problem with that, don't post. If you post obnoxious vile nonsense that you can't substantiate, others here will call you on your bullshit. Deal with it.

[ColbertWatcher]

102. "If you have a problem with that, don't post."

LOL! You just contradicted yourself.

LOL!

[Warren Stupidity]

112. LOL no I didn't.

[babythunder]

104. You seem to be the one stifling

discussion NOT me. Since you and others are so outraged about discussions regarding the Travolta's involvement with Scientology and their son's health care I ask again if it offends why contribute to this thread?

btw can you share more of your hypocritical lectures :sarcasm:

[Warren Stupidity]

113. I ain't stiffiling shit.

Carry on about scientology all you want. When you accuse people of negligent homicide you really ought to have some evidence to back that accusation up, unless you don't mind looking like a sick fuck.

[KamaAina]

93. "The outcome of this step is varied in its success"? Pish tosh.

How much does 0.00% vary from 0.00000%? :eyes:

[ColbertWatcher]

103. One cannot criticize the cult without suffering the whine of their apologists.

Questioning the efficacy of the cult's anti-scientific "medicines" will just make you a target of their extra-legal stalking and propaganda.

[noonwitch]

95. I hope that they don't get put through this.

Most churches will be supportive of grieving people.

[ColbertWatcher]

106. I think everyone would agree with you.

But, given the cult's previous actions in similar situations, there is a chance that it may happen just as the OP suggests it will.

[PurityOfEssence]

99. There seems to be a masochism inherent in most religions, but Scientology is positivelyself-sadistic

I live right next to Hollywood and see the wan and joyless mobs of blue-clad functionaries on a regular basis. Not a heart-warming sight.

[babythunder]

109. I live about 15 minutes from the Scientology

church in midtown Manhattan and on a pretty regular basis I see people outside protesting the church's practices. Also they're church is on one of the most expensive pieces of real estate in Manhattan.

[madeline_con]

114. They brought it on themselves

by buying into anything that stoopid.

[hoboken123]

118. Too early for 'Dumbest Post of the Year'?

It has to be a contender.