more about the 8 yr old autistic girl being arrested.

[sam sarrha]

http://abcnews.go.com/US/story?id=6640478&page=1

not a lot, they dropped the battery charges

[barbtries]

1. what's next?

don't the police and/or teachers, principals who go through these bullshit exercises have an ounce of shame within them? ARRESTED? i am in shock.

[liberalhistorian]

52. As the mother of an aspie son, I can tell you some real

horror stories of the complete lack of understanding, or even interest in understanding, the particular issues of these conditions and children with them. It's truly disgusting.

[barbtries]

58. i'm so sorry to hear it

it sounds as if your son has an advocate for a mother - so should all children.

[Hanse]

2. Yeah, that was in the original thread.

But then again, I don't think most people bothered to read the story.

[Pithlet]

5. Funny you should say that.

When you got a key detail of that story wrong in your arguments in that thread.

[Hanse]

6. Don't tease me, bro.

"key" detail is in the eye of the beholder.

[Pithlet]

9. Key being the fact it was not the school that actually dropped the charges

as you stated.

[Hanse]

10. And that's "key" because?

[Pithlet]

12. Oh, I don't know

Because, maybe, it's the school that wanted to press charges? I think that's a key point of the story. In fact, I think that's the whole story. That a school wanted to press charges against one of its students. You made the point that the school dropped charges after the scuffle was over. But, they didn't. They wanted to push things even further, and actually charge her with a crime. There was a hearing and everything. See, if you're going to go around accusing people of not reading the story, I think it's amusing when you're not even getting the facts straight yourself. That's all.

[Hanse]

13. And why do you think the school wanted to press charges?

Because they'd tried going other routes without involving police, and those didn't work.

Probably because of the parents.

"You made the point that the school dropped charges after the scuffle was over. But, they didn't."

The article said the school was interested in charges, because that was the only route they saw that would address the problem, i.e. involve the juvenile justice system, CPS, etc. The article says nothing on whether or not the school is happy that the charges have been dropped, now that the girl's in that system. In fact, I'm quite confident the school was involved in dropping the charges.

My point stands.

[Pithlet]

14. She's a child with Asperger's

It is never okay to charge a child that age with Asperger's with a crime. Ever. They aren't capable of committing one. Because in order to commit a crime, you need intent. Her behavior came about because of her age and because she has a disability. So, no. Your point does not stand.

Yes, the school said they were interested in charges because they saw it as the only route. There are indeed other ways of dealing with children with Aspergers other than hauling them off in handcuffs and charging them with crimes. I'm glad that bit was included in the article because it shows just how full of shit the school is. I'm glad the parents are pulling her out.

[Hanse]

15. You're ignoring that it was an ongoing and escalating problem.

There are other routes to addressing behaviour problems, but if you read the article, they exhausted those routes and were forced to this.

"I'm glad the parents are pulling her out."

I'm glad the authorities are now involved and there'll be someone from CPS working the case.

[Pithlet]

17. You have no clue what you're talking about. I'm not ignoring anything.

Number one: It's not child abuse to have a child with a disability. It's not the parent's fault. CPS don't get involved unless there's abuse.
Number two: It doesn't matter if there were two behavior issues or two thousand. No crime was committed by the child. Therefore, it was inappropriate to have her arrested and charged with a crime. It is not a crime in this country to have a disability. The fact that there we e multiple issues merely shows the school was unable to handle the situation. The ultimate solution was not to charge her with a crime.

[Hanse]

19. Sure you are. You've got no argument.

"It's not child abuse to have a child with a disability. It's not the parent's fault. CPS don't get involved unless there's abuse. "

The child's been arrested for assault. It's an ongoing problem that the school has tried to resolve with the parents before, that didn't work. Probable cause that there are issues going on at home.

Based on previous experience, if I were a betting man I'd give 4:1 odds that mommy's a meth addict.

[Pithlet]

21. Oh, Okay.

I see what I'm arguing with. Never mind.

[Hanse]

22. You might want to ask yourself...

why the mother's first concern is how she could make money off of the issue, and why she's completley ignoring why the cops were called in the first place. And concocting the story about the cow hoodie, for that matter.

[Pithlet]

23. As a mother with a child with Asperger's

I'm not going to discuss anything with someone who is so woefully ignorant on the subject that he/she suspects the mother might be a meth addict. Have a nice day.

[Hanse]

24. Oh, I'm well versed on the subjects.

Aspergers, meth addictions, special education, violent kids in the school sytem, and bad parents who ignore the issues.

[Pithlet]

26. Oh, yes.

As someone who thinks it's peachy keen to charge any 8 year old with a crime, I bet your views are just lovely, too. I really do wish I had more time to hear all your well versed views on the subject. It's really too bad I have other things to do. What a shame.

[Hanse]

29. ...

"As someone who thinks it's peachy keen to charge any 8 year old with a crime..."

Well now that depends on the outcome of the manifest determination.

You do know what that is, don't you?

[Pithlet]

32. I'm all out of goodies.

Run along now.

[Hanse]

34. No? You don't know?

Well, let's hope you won't have to find out.

[Maat]

40. As a retired social worker, I can only say that I haven't seen anything that would merit ...

intervention by Child Protective Services; I support your point-of-view, Pithlet.

I've seen things that ticked off the school, but as many school officals find out, that is NOT a child protection issue (and I've told many of them that, including that they do not have the right to compel parents' to take a particular course of action with respect to their child's treatment unless depriving the child of that treatment is literally life-threatening; they only have the right to dictate the terms of school attendance).

Moreover, there is nothing to indicate that the parents abuse methamphetamine, particularly in the photos of them.

Maybe they need to do what I did - I homeschool my daughter, who does not have autism, through a charter school program; and, I don't have to put up with someone telling my daughter what she can wear to school, or suspending her over taking accidentally taking a plastic knife to the cafeteria, or anything else like that. I have a friend who has a diabetic daughter. She homeschools (technically, it's independent study) her daughter since the aides can't seem to properly care for her during the day. Plus, we actually get an allowance for private, one-on-one tutoring.

[Pithlet]

47. Exactly. You know it could very well be

that the parents were the biggest pains in the butt on the planet, and that they did somehow contribute to the problems, and that can be frustrating for the school to deal with. Who knows? It can be hard to find out that your child has problems, and sometimes parents are in denial, and that doesn't help. None of us can know simply by reading an article either way. My only problem with the story is the fact that the school had her arrested and pressed charges. I don't care how bad things got. It should have never happened.

[Maat]

57. It's ridiculous.

Once, when I was active, an officer asked me if I wanted a three-year-old arrested, because she threatened to kill me. I told him, "No, that won't be necessary. Kids don't get cuffed when I'm around. Just help me put her in the van, in the child safety seat." When we got started driving, I asked her, "Want to go for ice cream before we get to Grandma's?" "Oh, yeah." No problems occurred after that. The evening went swimmingly (although not for Mom and Dad, they were being sent to prison for some of their other entrepreneurial activities).

[Hannah Bell]

101. Thank god you're sane. Kids say nutty things all the time; I think as many get screwed

up by nutty adults making a federal case out of it & "intervening" as are helped.

I can just imagine what kind of horrorshows could have resulted from the 3-year old saying "I'll kill you," had you been a different person.

[Maat]

111. Thanks for your kind words (n/t).

[PA Democrat]

102. There are many books published on dealing with behavioral issues in children with Asperger Syndrome

and autism. One of my personal favorites is Asperger Syndrome and Difficult Moments: Practical Solutions for Tantrums, Rage, and Meltdowns by Brenda Smith Myles and Jack Southwick. The book contains great tips on how to prevent tantrums and meltdowns from occurring in the first place

Anyone with a minimal understanding of autism spectrum disorders would know that the behavior this child exhibited WAS a manifestation of her disability. You do know, that, don't you?

Also, your conjecture about the mom being a meth addict speaks volumes about you.

[sam sarrha]

76. sorry but it sounds like you just pull shit out your ass to fake a point

[petronius]

38. "Concocting the story"? Is it not true that the school wanted her to remove

the outfit to get into the party? Was that not the starting point for the whole confrontation?

The link in the OP, especially the comments from Prof. Filipek, really cement IMO the idea that the school screwed up. (Sorta off topic: the cow 'costume' is really cute, and barely different from any other sweatshirt.)

[Gwendolyn]

50. Not necessarily. The school has given very little info, but claims

what happened was the culmination of ongoing behavior. It's the child's perception that it was about the hoodie. If the parents go ahead with the lawsuit, it'll be determined what the initiating cause was.

[merh]

59. The escalating behavior was the behavior of that day.

Dick Cvitanich, superintendent of the Lake Pend Oreille School District, which includes the school where Evelyn was a student, said the school called police because "there was escalating behavior that resulted in what we perceived to be an assault on staff."

There is nothing in the article to support your contention that this incident was just one of many during the course of the school year.

[Gwendolyn]

72. I'm wasn't trying to imply that. My point is:

it's the child's version of the story that it was about the hoodie. The school didn't give their side of the story. People are taking a very subjective piece of information, given by a child who was extremely agitated at the time, as utter fact.

[merh]

77. But the school district hasn't denied it

Charges were dropped Tuesday prior to a scheduled preliminary hearing at the Bonner County Courthouse. The girl's father said he was told the charges were dropped because it would be impossible to put an eight-year old on probation.

Lake Pend Oreille School District Superintendent Dick Cvitanich said he is comfortable with the court's decision.

"From my perspective, there has been a decision made and charges were dropped, and we will welcome the girl back to school," he said.

http://www.bonnercountydailybee.com/articles/2009/01/15/news/doc496edb8932742119675073.txt

One would assume they would deny the hoodie facts if they were inaccurate or exaggerated.

[Gwendolyn]

78. This is from the OP's story:

"Cvitanich said Evelyn's outburst Friday was the culmination of a series of incidents "that demanded staff intervention."

<...>

"Teachers and the principal wished to pursue charges because they felt there were ongoing problems and this was the only way to resolve it," Lakewold said.

But Towry said her daughter thinks she got into so much trouble simply because she didn't want to take off her cow costume."

[merh]

82. And yet, the later statement by the School District is they welcome

the child back - and in neither statement do they deny the hoodie provacation.

[Gwendolyn]

85. I believe that it isn't in the best legal interests of the school to talk to the media.

The parents can speak to their hearts' content.

And how do you know that the school was even asked to comment about the hoodie incident?

It's pretty clear from the quotes given though that the school felt that there were ongoing issues and this was the best resolution "BUT" Mrs. Towry thought it had to do with the child's hoodie. The word "but" seems to imply that there are differing ideas of why the police was called. Not sure why the school's willingness to take the child back would be proof of anything.

But in any event, the hoodie isn't important. It could have been over a crayon.

The issue is more or less that an 8-year-old child was arrested and taken away. That's the real problem.

[proud2BlibKansan]

87. Privacy laws

The school district can't say much. That's always the big problem with these stories. You have the parent's version of events and the school's version is left out.

[Gwendolyn]

93. That's what I figured.

I guess it'll all come out in the wash. Strange though, because it seems that this school first helped to diagnose the girl, and apparently they're also equipped to handle smaller, special needs classes so you'd think they could cope. But who knows what the story is at this point.

[Pithlet]

95. Exactly. Privacy laws don't explain that away.

And privacy laws wouldn't prevent a school district from releasing such a huge detail that would explain the need to arrest and charge a student, anyway. If she committed such a vile deed that even the most liberal among would say "Okay. Charge the little bugger", then they'd be able to say what it was. The story isn't so lopsided that it looks so outrageous because of privacy laws. Privacy laws would protect such things as details of her IEP. They might want to refrain from explaining details of the case to cover their own ass, possibly.

[merh]

89. No, it is not clear.

It is in the best interests of the school to make it appear to be an on going problem - you ignore their statements that reflect positively towards the child yet accept their efforts to blame the child.

Bottom line is, in Idaho, a child under the age of 10 cannot be booked into juve facilities and the school should have known that. A child of 8 cannot appreciate the nature of the charge, let alone be reponsible - "do you understand right versus wrong - it was wrong I couldn't go to the christmas party and they hurt me when they said I had batteries".

The mother was close enough that she was able to get to the school to see her handcuffed and frightened daughter put in a cop car, therefore it appears the school was slow in calling her (and I'd bet it was a concerned teacher that reached her and not the teacher that caused the problems.)

You have an 8 year old versus at least 2 adults, if not more, and the adults bruised the child, abused her, which is a felony. The wrong person was cuffed and booked and charged.

[Gwendolyn]

92. Now you're even adding your own made up details to the story.

It doesn't matter what "you'd bet" really. Them's ain't the facts.

And I'm not making any judgement calls one way or another. That would be you again.

It seems to me also, that police officers can get to a place really damn fast, so if the mother got there at much the same time, it would appear that she was called immediately. The rest of course, is your own fabrication.

[merh]

94. It's true, we don't know what the facts are relative to the call, as to

who placed it. You have the timeline wrong, the police were on the scene long before the mother - they had time to cuff the child, take the complaint, know what charges to bring and direct the child to the car.

And I am making judgment calls, having both worked for the legal counsel that wrote school policy and defended the school systems and for the attorneys that have successfully sued schools for violations of the policy and the state laws (something both you and the school seem to have overlooked, state statutes), I am pretty confident my judgment is reasonable based upon my knowledge of the facts as provided by several articles, my experience in the system and my knowledge of the laws (which I researched, have you?)

Watch the videotape of the child, you can see that she posed no threat to the staff.

I'll give you one other judgment call, the teacher should be fired.

[Gwendolyn]

113. Oh I'm sure your credentials are impeccable.

Not relevant though.

The cops often take offenders into cuffs and place them in a neutral area, like a police car, before finishing up paperwork, etc. Doesn't mean much.

You're basing your whole outrage on the story of a CHILD. I can see that a few posts down you've even made up more details surrounding her plight, based on your own projections and apparent dogged wish that the story be true, whatever your reasons may be. Such as that she would have frozen to death in class without it.

Aspie children are often quite without guile, and tell the truth where other children might be more creative, but they often do also experience perception problems. All that aside, many, many children see things in a completely egotistical, subjective and childish way, and aren't always the best witness to an incident. There are any number of plausible explanations for why the situation happened, that don't necessarily include the teachers' witch hunting the child because they didn't like her hoodie. It seems far more likely that no matter what, this unfortunate incident would've happened, whether it had been about a pencil, a mis-placed chair, her posture, etc... because the story really is about POLICY, not detail.

Edited to add: What the hell does the video show? It doesn't prove anything. You're so determined this story is going to be about a hoodie you haven't got any objectivity.

[merh]

116. The cops rarely take 54 pound children into custody by cuffing them

and booking them into juve facilities in violation of their regulations and laws. So the child "broke a rule" and the child is punished, shouldn't the cops who broke a more important rule be punished as well?

And the video shows that the child could not be a threat and was no criminal.

You are so damned determined to prove that the teacher and school have done no wrong that you refuse to be objective.

Again, my opinions are based on my knowledge of the facts (from more than one article); the pertinent laws governing such matters in the state (I researched them) and the federal laws protecting the rights of citizens (you have heard of the 8th amendment, haven't you - no cruel and unusual punishment?); and, my experience in the field.

At least my "loss of objectivity" is based in more than just stubbornness. I don't believe you can claim the same.

[Gwendolyn]

117. And I find you stubborn.

:)

To me it's like this: No one suddenly lost their minds. The school was somehow tired of her. Perhaps she acted out to much, parents refused to listen, too many teachers complained. The child herself said she hates school. Seems to be their side of the story. On the other side, who knows. Perhaps the child was telling the truth, the school claims to have resources but maybe they really don't. Not enough teachers. Law preventing teachers acting as humans and focussing on the official handbook of what to do.

However, I would say one thing for sure... no matter what, eventually the same exact scenario would have played out. Cops called, child hauled away. You're spending too much time on blaming teachers, adhering to a child's story, which could be any child's story, and not focusing on the real problem. Which is, that no school should be in a position to have to call the cops to haul a child away. Even if the teacher's were at fault, tried to restrain the girl when that was not a good decision, people are human and make mistakes. And sometimes children are real shits as well. The problem is not the hoodie.

[merh]

118. My, not only stubborn, but you have assumed so much.

And sadly, you give the school yet another pass for a very pathetic reason "the school grew tired of her" - They need to hand in their respective licenses and find another job if they grew tired of one child to such an extent that they violated her freedom of expression (again, the school has not denied the incident began with the hoodie concerns); they arbitrarily punished a child; they failed to promptly contact the parents and they had a child arrested.

And no teacher should call the police to deal with a 54 pound 8 year old, and sometimes teachers are real shits and don't know how to handle special needs children.

[Gwendolyn]

119. You don't know how to read.

I've given both sides of the story based on the material. Logical speculation of why both sides would act as they did.

Now you're projecting onto me. Your result though is the same as mine, other than firing an entire school. :eyes: They shouldn't have called the cops. You're just a big drama queen about it.

Do they need to hand in their licenses? Not until there is more evidence than a little girl's story. Is that okay with you?

Gosh do you think someday the entire world could come after you with pitchforks based on some message board person who "knows" what happened, based on a news story?

[merh]

120. So, you cannot win the debate and get all frustrated

and start the personal attacks. Be careful in certain Idaho elementary schools, if you get all frustrated and upset you could get arrested.

She is a child, an 8 year old little girl who weighs a whole 54 pounds. She has special needs and doesn't see the world as you and I do, doesn't feel as safe in it as you and I do, doesn't react to the challenges as you and I would react. Yes, she is entitled to being treated as a human being and not a hardened, threatening criminal.

The school was wrong - if they weren't the prosecutors would have pursued the charges.

Like I said, I've done some research and am a wee bit more informed about the "facts" than you are. The superintendent has confirmed the "hoodie" began the incident. Just imagine what would have happened if that teacher simply tried to understand the child rather than arbitrarily punishing her for her fashion sense.

[Gwendolyn]

121. Do I really sound all frustrated?

Sorry if I gave you that impression. I did post a smilie to tell you that I'm not perturbed.

So you asked the super yourself? And it was the hoodie that started the incident. Even though you admit the girl doesn't see the world as some others do. Okay. So the school was totally off base in saying that there was nothing else? In that case, since you spoke to the super, you should pursue this far further than arguing with me. I would. I wouldn't even bother with me.

I'm only arguing with you because I hate it that people get all riled up about mainstream media stories when they don't have facts in hand. Pitchfork people.

[merh]

122. and do you know what I hate

it is those people that condone the abuse of a child, whether that abuse be at the hands of the parent or guardian or teacher or the police. Whether that abuse be emotional or physical, it just really bothers me. Laws have been passed against child abuse, laws have been passed that hold that a child under a certain age (10 years old in Idaho) cannot be booked into a detention facility; laws have been passed that allow legal redress for malicious prosecution and false imprisonment. Children, even special needs children, do have rights and it is the responsibility of the schools and their staff to understand that and to respect their rights. If they expect a child to obey the rules they sure the hell should have to do the same.

[Gwendolyn]

123. So say that then.

It took you how many posts to make that comment?

All the rest were circumspect projections, and nightmarish fabrications, of what might have happened at the school to fit the subject of your comment.

I'll tell you this though. No European family would've done what this one did. Putting your child on display seems to be a uniquely American thing. And you're worried about the school system?

edito for bad grammero

[merh]

124. I've said that throughout. I've posted several times that the child was

subjected to abuse and arbitrary punishment in violations of her rights. Given that you are European, it appears you are out of your league, you don't know much about the rights we enjoy here. Sad for you.

I think it is you that should have said from the start that you were basing your tainted and harsh views on what is acceptable in European society. That would have most definitely changed the tone of this discussion and your credibility on the subjects herein.

The family did not put their child on display, they merely went to the press to ensure that their rights and their child's rights were protected. They know that there are people like you that think the establishment can do not wrong.

[Gwendolyn]

125. Oy vey. I'm not European.

It's hilarious that you think Europeans are harsh and tainted, when they aren't subject to the kind of Jerry Springer knee jerker views people here are. All I meant by my comment, is that those who aren't apt to parade their children out in front of the press, might have some better sense. Good lord woman, you really are a drama princess. Anyway, I'm done. Whatever your tearful views are, and they have been Greek tragedy from start to finish, guess the story will thankfully play out in a real court, and not yours.

[merh]

126. No, I think you are harsh and tainted and from your comment

about American parents displaying their children I could only assume that you cling to the "not in polite European society" that you professed.

By the way, where do you think such programs as American Idol and all those other reality shows originated?

I don't think this case will make it to court, their will be a settlement and the child will not be subjected to further abuse and irresponsible care as offered by that school. It is you that writes the Greek tragedy, those poor picked on adults, that bully child was mean to them and they had to show her who was boss.

How sad indeed to condone the mistreatment of any child, especially the special needs child.

[Pithlet]

96. The arrest and taken away part is the problem I have, too.

I know that a lot of people are making a big deal about the hoodie, but personally I couldn't care less about it. It doesn't even really matter to me what happened, there. It's possible the tantrum and resulting fisticuffs were entirely not the fault of the teachers. It's the resulting cuffs and cop car and criminal charges I have the problem with.

[merh]

97. The overreaction to the hoodie is what began the mess.

The child was not responsible for what she was allowed to wear out of the house and to school that day. The parents were responsible.

If the school had no dress code, the teacher restricting the child's behavior (punishing the child)and preventing her from attending the xmas party because of the hoodie was arbitrary and without justification. At that point the parents should have been called to bring a change of clothing or to bring the child home.

If there was a dress code, the code would have (should have) contained the provision that the parent would be contacted.

It was cold weather, the hoodie provided protection from the cold. What did the teacher expect the child to do, go without protective clothing in the cold climate? The parents should have been the first ones contacted and the child should have been brought to the office to await the parent, not relegated to some room while the others enjoyed the party.

After that mistake came the mistakes made by the police. To handcuff an 8 year old, to bring charges and to book her into a juve facility was wrong (especially if their statutes/code provide as that no one under 10 can be booked into a juve facility). The police should have waited for the parent to arrive and should have rendered the child to the custody of the parent and should have told the school if they wanted to press charges they would have to file a complaint and let the prosecutor sort it all out.

[Gwendolyn]

114. I agree. It's the policy of the school, not the incident that's problematic.

Someone else said schools are simply following the letter of the law in these cases, but even so, it sucks terribly.

[petronius]

60. I see. I had noticed that that particular detail is only in a quote from the

mom in each of the stories I'd seen. I assumed that because there was no other comment that the refusal to remove the hoody (which IMO would be an unnecessary/inappropriate demand) was the precipitating event, but I guess it's possible that there was something else. If the child went ballistic with no provocation, or in response to a reasonable request from school staff, I wonder if the school would be permitted to state that outside of a legal setting...

[Hannah Bell]

100. Yes, it's pretty much a sweatshirt with ears. What were the teachers thinking? It's so ridiculous.

[proud2BlibKansan]

41. The story about the cow hoodie was bullshit?

Seriously?

[Hanse]

44. The part where the parent conjectured...

that the reason they had the child arrested was because they were upset over the hoodie, and not because the child had just assaulted staff, that was bullshit.

[proud2BlibKansan]

48. Amazing how details can get twisted

We had to call the cops on a parent one time who threatened to kill me because I had thrown her child's toy away. It was his "favorite toy" and she didn't understand why I couldn't just take it away and give it to her at the end of the day. So she came in my room after school and went nuts and threatened to kill me. We called security and they had to call the cops and have her arrested for threatening me and assaulting security.

Here's the missing detail: it was a PAPER AIRPLANE and he threw it across the room so I picked it up and threw it in the trash. And this parent ended up in jail. Over a freakin paper airplane. She also was banned from all school district property. The district took out a restraining order on her. Because of a paper airplane.

But I threw away her son's favorite toy. That really does sound a lot worse than throwing away a paper airplane, doesn't it? That parent is probably still telling the story of her son's mean 1st grade teacher who threw his favorite toy in the trash.

[JVS]

65. HAHAHAHAHA! Sent to the Pokey for a paper airplane. Reminds me of Chapelle's when keeping it...

real goes wrong.

[proud2BlibKansan]

69. 20 years later it does seem like a comedy sketch from SNL

:rofl:

[proud2BlibKansan]

54. But if this really was about the hoodie

they should have just let her wear it. You need to learn to pick your battles with kids.

But I doubt we have heard the whole story and I would bet my paycheck that Mom exaggerated at least a bit.

[JVS]

68. If I had a class with 35 kids in it, I'd be very reluctant to grant concessions.

You do that too much and you'll have the whole class trying to negotiate

[proud2BlibKansan]

71. I would hope this little girl wasn't in a class with 35 kids

If she really is as disabled as Mom makes her out to be, she should be in a small self-contained special ed class.

[Pithlet]

79. Really? Hmmm

I don't agree. Children with Asperger's are in mainstream classes all the time. I don't think there's nearly enough info to determine whether or not she needs that. Mom made her out to be a child with Asperger's. Nothing more. This one incident aside, there' no reason that mainstreaming her couldn't be a goal, if she isn't there already.

[proud2BlibKansan]

86. That outburst might cause her placement to change

especially if she is fully mainstreamed. One of the criteria considered in placement is safety for the child and her classmates. Last time I had a kid outburst like that they took him out of our self contained class and put him in a class of 3 at a hospital. Then about 3 months later he came back to our class.

[Pithlet]

88. Possibly

I just think as someone who's saying that there's really not enough info to judge whether the school acted appropriately, that it does seem that you're drawing a lot of info from the story to make some judgments yourself, and it's not the first time I've noticed you doing it in this whole discussion. We don't what exactly what happened, remember?

[proud2BlibKansan]

90. But I do have experience in working with kids like this

and can relate how similar situations were resolved that I am familiar with. That's all I am trying to do. That certainly doesn't warrant attacks on me, now does it?

[Pithlet]

91. I'm not attacking you.

I just disagree with you. You may have indeed have experience working with special needs kids. That doesn't mean I have to agree with you. I found your characterization of the mother a little off. It seemed rather biased to me. Your blanket judgment based on the story that she shouldn't be in a mainstream class seemed really off to me. I don't think that's an attack.

[Sonicmedusa]

81. Maybe you could give us some examples of how disabled

her mom "made her out to be".

Disabled enough for one of those rubber rooms you promoted on the other thread?

Great! An "educator" who does not understand the concept of Least Restrictive Enviroment.

[proud2BlibKansan]

84. What a load of bullshit

I did not promote rubber rooms. I reported that they do indeed exist when someone claimed they did not. And that they are used. Only an idiot would call that promotion.

You are the one who doesn't understand Least Restrictive Environment. A regular classroom with 35 kids is far from the LRE for an autistic kid who has outbursts and assaults people.

[acmavm]

107. You sure have changed your tune from that earlier thread when you

were defending the school having this kid arrested.

[Hanse]

108. Like I've said before...

it's entirely possible that the teacher picked the wrong battle. But once the blow out started, that's beside the point. When the real trouble started the staff handled it correctly.

It's also just as possible that the staff reasonably asked the student to remove the hoodie, and the mere suggestion caused the blowout.

[Sonicmedusa]

25. You don't need no stinking details- you just make up your own.

"Ongoing problem that the school has tried to resolve with the parents before"

"CPS is involved"

"Mommy's a meth addict"

You are one lying peice of work.

[Hanse]

27. LOL

"'Ongoing problem that the school has tried to resolve with the parents before'"

It's in the article.

"CPS is involved"

Logical consequence of the incident.

"Mommy's a meth addict"

Best guess, based on her behaviour. Care to place a wager?

"You are one lying peice of work."

I'm one opinionated piece of work.

[Sonicmedusa]

31. Please show me where in the article

It says there was an "onging problem that the school has tried to resolve with the parents before."

The article is three pages long. I will settle for the page number and the location of the paragraph.

Otherwise, your above post is bullshit- like the rest of them are.

[Hanse]

33. You're going to have to read between the lines.

"Dick Cvitanich, superintendent. said the school called police because "there was escalating behavior that resulted in what we perceived to be an assault on staff."

'Ongoing Problems' With Autistic Student

Cvitanich said Evelyn's outburst Friday was the culmination of a series of incidents "that demanded staff intervention."

"It's definitely not typical," he said of the decision to call police on a child as young as Evelyn, "and not something we particularly want to do or like to do."

You're also going to have to be intellectually honest when you do read between the lines.

Best of luck.

[Sonicmedusa]

37. Reading between the lines...

"Escalating behavior", "Ongoing Problems", "culmination of a series of incidents" =

1) The child refused to remove her hoodie.
2) The child attempted to leave the school.
3) The child reacted to being restrained by fighting back.

Nowhere in the article is there any mention of an "an ongoing problem that the school has tried to resolve with the parents before".

But don't let that stop you from fabricating lies.

[Hanse]

42. See what I said about being intellectually honest.

Tough luck.

[proud2BlibKansan]

43. "the culmination of a series of incidents that demanded staff intervention"

That would mean ongoing problem, that it had happened before.

[liberalhistorian]

46. Oh, for Christ's sake, are you fucking kidding me?

My teenage son is an aspie, and I've had to deal with idiots who think like you for most of his life. Based on how the school handled her in the first place, by making such a huge issue of her wearing a fucking cow hoodie to a party and then putting her in a separate room BY HERSELF during the party, THEY are the ones at fault in that incident and it's more than obvious that they have no idea how to handle particular conditions, have not listened when being told and educated by the child's professionals as to how to best handle things, and are only interested in doing things THEIR way. There are more than enough schools that blame parents and children for THEIR legalistic failures and lack of proper handling of things.

My mother's a retired teacher with nearly forty years of experience and she's more than familiar with schools and teachers like this, having battled them for most of her career. She's also helped me raise my aspie son. We were talking about this case and she was beyond appalled at how the school and teachers handled things. Pick your battles, was one of her major mantras and she couldn't believe the school's stupidity in this regard.

[Vanje]

62. Meth addict

What the fuck!??

[Hanse]

110. You know those parents that named their kid "Adolf Hitler?"

Sometimes there are just tells.

[sam sarrha]

75. please post a link to the persistant problem you used to validate your point

[Hanse]

109. From the original article.

Relevant quotes reposted upthread.

[sam sarrha]

112. yea.. i noticed you consistantly pissed people off down the line too.. why is that.??

[sendero]

80. and with a 100% certainty..

.. you are an idiot.

[Hannah Bell]

99. This is Democratic Underground, & you are lost.

[acmavm]

106. Mommy is a meth addict? Sounds like someone in your family tree was

messing with controlled substances to a LARGE degree to spawn someone who'd pop off with something as ignorant as that.

[KamaAina]

115. I thought "Blame The Victim" was a game that *repukes* played.

:eyes:

[merh]

53. You have misread the article and are creating facts.

The escalated problem was the incident that day.

Dick Cvitanich, superintendent of the Lake Pend Oreille School District, which includes the school where Evelyn was a student, said the school called police because "there was escalating behavior that resulted in what we perceived to be an assault on staff."

[liberalhistorian]

56. The SCHOOL didn't drop the charges. The

PROSECUTOR dropped the charges, and with damned good reason. And where the fuck did you get that CPS was involved? NOWHERE does it say that. And having a child with a disability does not automatically make the parents bad. Do you have a child with autism or Asperger's? No, you obviously don't. I have an aspie teenager, and I've had to deal with idiot teachers and admins who think like you for most of his life. THEY are usually the ones at fault, for not listening when told how to best handle children with these conditions, for thinking that THEY are the only ones who know, for separating the disability from the behavior; in other words, for not understanding the particular issues involved in a particular disability and believing that children with these conditions DELIBERATELY act in such ways, with intention. They don't, as the pediatric neurologist explained in the article. Most of us parents with these children do the very best we can and it doesn't help when legalistic schools and teachers don't understand and aren't interested in understanding and don't even care that they don't understand.

If the idiot teachers and admins in this case had bothered to listen to the child's professionals, they would have known how to handle her better and they would NOT have handled the incident in that way. But that's okay, what do I know? Excuse me while I go take some meth now.

[Pithlet]

64. CPS following up would just be the logical conclusion

says that very knowledgeable DUer well versed on the subject. *snort*

[Sonicmedusa]

66. Then again, what do we know?

We both have aspie teens, therefore we must be meth addicts.

These people make me sick.

[liberalhistorian]

70. I know. God knows I've dealt with enough of that shit

throughout my son's life. And especially since I was a single mother, too.

[lonestarnot]

3. Did they take away the cow costume and give it to some rich kid?

[Metta]

4. Distrubing movement in public schools to go to juvenile justice, not solving their own problems.

I've had principals tell me that the school adminitrators are telling them to do that. Morally bankrupt and lazy. Causing drama instead of helping out. Happy karma.

[proud2BlibKansan]

7. If you don't like it, contact your reps

I feel like a broken record. But here we go again - following the Columbine shooting in 99, many states passed laws mandating calling the cops when there is an assault at school. So principals and administrators are just obeying the law. It is beyond unfair to blame them for this crap.

[Pithlet]

11. It is indeed entirely fair

to blame them for using a tragedy to switch to such a ridiculous way of doing things. It's no different than railing against Bush and his ilk for taking away our freedoms after 9/11. Charging children with theft for stealing a brownie does not prevent Columbine. Charging 8 year old little girls with Asperger's with a crime for basically acting like an 8 year old little girl with Asperger's doesn't prevent Columbine. Maybe these states passed these laws, but it does indeed seem that enough educators still have their wits about them, because our jails aren't filled to the brim with 10 year old little boys who've scrapped in the school yard. At least not yet. If and when those stories start pouring in, and we're outraged at those, you'll probably be in those threads too, wagging your finger at us.

[proud2BlibKansan]

16. Which part of it's a law schools have to call the cops

do you not understand?

I was one of many who lobbied AGAINST zero tolerance laws. We could see the writing on the wall 10 years ago.

If you must point your finger, please point it at the reps who passed these stupid laws. School officials are just following these laws. To ignore the law means losing their certification and/or jobs.

Blaming school personnel for this is just as stupid as blaming them for the constant testing in schools today. That is also a law.

[Pithlet]

20. And what part of They Pressed Charges do you not understand

Not seeing the law requiring hat. And I'm sorry. You can't tell me there isn't some level of discretion, there. Or half of my son's special ed class would have been hauled off in cuffs already. I'm sorry, proud2Blib. I'm not buying what you're selling.

[proud2BlibKansan]

30. Didn't you say that your son had wonderful teachers

who were able to keep the kids from outbursting? If it wasn't you I apologize. But if that was you then why would half your son's class need to be hauled off? Do the teachers keep the kids in control or not?

BTW, the police don't always haul off kids, and in my city, they normally do not. The law in my state merely mandates we contact law enforcement. In schools where resource officers are on staff, there is no need to call 911. But even if cops are called, that doesn't mean a kid is hauled off or jailed.

I don't have assaults in my classroom either. But I am aware of other classrooms where kids did assault other kids and teachers too. That is why I lobbied against zero tolerance laws. The fact that I don't support this nonsense is lost in the attacks on me. And all I am doing is explaining WHY cops are called. It's not school officials going berserk; it's school officials complying with a stupid law. And the minute they don't call the cops, the meme will be 'Schools are dangerous! Why don't they do something to keep these kids from hurting each other?' Educators can't win for losing on this one.

[Hanse]

35. Out here police are called on a daily basis.

But then again, this is a school specializing in violent children.

Charges are pressed less often, but hardly unheard of.

I doubt if a student had been assaulted rather than a teacher, nobody would have an issue with charges being pressed.

[Pithlet]

36. No, that wasn't me.

I'm sure that half my son's class, at one time or another, has had a tantrum. That's my point. At some point in calming them down, a teacher or handler was probably "assaulted".

I think maybe you aren't doing a very good job of explaining yourself, then. Because it did seem as though you defend what happened in that story. I also think you are applying what you think is happening. There's little evidence they were actually following any law, however. I don't see it as them complying with some stupid law. I think it would have helped your case if you'd actually found their state law that applied to that situation that stated they had to have her arrested and charged with a crime, before you came into the thread. And then stated something like "I know, isn't it awful. But they didn't have a choice". Instead, it did seem as though you were attacking the people who had a problem with it. There were also plenty of teachers suitably appalled at what happened. There very well could be more stringent laws, now, after Columbine. But, I'm not seeing how that applies to a crackdown on smaller offenses that have little to do with actual violent crimes, and I don't see what that has to do with how schools deal with children with disabilities. I think you're projecting one issue onto another.

[proud2BlibKansan]

39. I am just tired of the constant teacher bashing here

Teachers are leaving DU over this crap. I get sad when I see I have a PM for fear it's another teacher saying goodbye.

Sorry I misunderstood what you said about your child and his class.

[Pithlet]

45. I know.

It can get pretty upsetting, I know. I get sick of the parent bashing sometimes, so I understand. A lot of groups get it bad at times. I really do get your frustration. But that doesn't mean the outrage over a story isn't legitimate. I love teachers as a whole. It's a noble profession that doesn't get nearly enough respect or pay. I think public schools are great. I think they've done wonderful things for our son. And I still think that school screwed up big time, and hope the parents win big in a suit.

[proud2BlibKansan]

51. I am glad your son is doing well

As for the other story, my hope is that the truth eventually comes out. I doubt we heard the whole story.

[liberalhistorian]

61. My parents are both retired teachers with decades of

service, and I'm a committed teacher defender. But I'm also sick to death of those who believe teachers are always right no matter what. That doesn't help matters, either. I was talking about this case with my mother today, who was horrified at what the school and teachers had done. She taught at a state juvenile delinquent school for many years and helped me raise my aspie son; that help included dealing with intransigent and ignorant teachers and administrators because she knew how to talk their "language." She said it was obvious the teachers and school had not listened to the child's professionals on how best to handle her, and that they didn't make an effort to understand her conditions particular issues. Teachers do not automatically get a free pass, they can do tremendous damage to children at times and this is one of them.

And I'm frankly sick of the parent bashing also, the belief that teachers are always right and the parents always wrong. Believe me, I know there are plenty of really horrible parents and few things piss me off more than teachers getting the blame for the parents' actions, as I watched with my own parents students while growing up. But they will be the first to say that teachers and admins also need to be held accountable, and this is one case when they really need it.

[liberalhistorian]

67. My dad retired from the classroom a couple years after that, he couldn't

take that bullshit anymore, said it was getting to almost science-fiction ridiculous levels.

[Pithlet]

8. I'm hoping that we're just seeing stories of extreme exceptions in the media

And that it isn't actually a nationwide trend. The fact a small few teachers on DU show up with almost every story and defend it always sends a few chills up my spine though, let me tell you. The justice system should be reserved for serious crimes. Not for minor matters that the school should be handling, and certainly not as a tool for dealing with 8 year old special need students.

[ThatsMyBarack]

18. When I was this girl's age, 30 years ago....

I, too, was a child with Asperger's Syndrome--only back then the adults didn't know what it was. I never had a cow costume I wouldn't take off, but I had similar habits that I got in trouble for. When I got reprimanded and/or punished for them, my parents would say, "How can you be so stupid? You're eight years old--you should know better!" That made me feel like a bad kid who deserved what she got. :(

[sam sarrha]

63. 52 years ago, i dont think my family thought i deserved it, they just made sure i got it daily.. in

first grade i was locked in closets. told if i made any noise the bear in the darkness would eat me. Aspi age 6

second grade teacher put a big box around my desk so i wouldn't look around, i could read at age 3, i would sneak books out of the higher classes at lunch time and study them bring em back, in the 2nd grade i was up to at least 5th 6th grade on all subjects.. my son was put in the GATE Program in the 3rd grade, he finished the high school level in the 5th grade, they didn't know what to do with him when he finished so they put him in the 5th grade.. he now has a PhD in Engineering

i never learned anything in school i was always 3 to 4 grades ahead.. but was viciously abused and sometimes tortured because i didn't look at peoples faces.. and asked 'Literal' questions that adults took as being smart Ass'd.. i perceive in visual images and have to translate, i get a picture and if i'm stressed i cant say the word but i can draw a picture.


i was put in classes for retarded children, i was brutalized repeatedly because i simply didn't understand what was going on socially..i was ALWAYS VERY CAREFUL TO ALWAYS DO EVERYTHING PROPERLY AND NOT DRAW ATTENTION TO MYSELF. i couldn't understand why people..teachers.. were grabbing me by the hair dragging me to the office throwing me roughly into a chair and threatening me. once because they said i shouldn't have solved a mechanical drawing in wood shop, the teacher set me up, the teacher said it took Algebra to solve the problem and he checked with my math teacher and he said i couldn't do fractions. this encounter was vicious and brutal, 2 adults right in my face screaming at me demanding answers without giving me time to answer..

my drunken father beat me nearly every day, he'd start and work to a crescendo, he knew i'd start hand flipping and when i did he beat me with a belt and when i wouldn't quit crying he beat me with his hands to the ground screaming at me.. i always thought they were going to do that

they finally quit yelling at me and i explained how i solved the problem.. part of my Syndrome is a Functional Obsessive Compulsive Fascination with "the parts of things" and solving the problems associated with them. i explained how i was able to make a mechanical drawing out of a written description.. the shop teacher said, "oh" you used Geometry to solve it, go back to class. usually they weren't that kind.

school was hell, the teachers were bad enough the students were worse if you are at all different and especially if you are fragile or vulnerable.. i thought several times they were going to beat me to death, broken ribs, stomped hands, sprains.. i became agora phobic trying to get to school and back without being seen.. i managed to do it..

[timtom]

28. Why didn't they just let her wear

her cow pullover? It's this might-makes-right and we are the authorities crap that I can't stomach.

[merh]

49. The fashion police were offended and found the hoodie to be

a violation of good taste and punished the special needs 8 year old - violated her right to free expression because the cow didn't coincide with x-mas (though, I do recall that the manger scenes I have seen over the years had a lamb and a cow and a donkey and the holy family trio).

Same people defending the indefensible, the bad choices of ADULTS that resulted in the punishment of a child and their punishment is what escalated matters, resulted in abuse to that child and violations of their own policies and the Idaho statutes which forbide abuse of a child.

[elleng]

55. IDIOTS!

Infuriating that we pay taxes that go to school systems that act so foolishly.

[liberalhistorian]

73. Try being the parent of an aspie,

and constantly having to deal with such ignorance and hostility.

[elleng]

74. I'm afraid it would seriously harm my emotional stability.

My daughters, younger of whom has learning differences, somehow have unusual abilities to understand and communicate with young children; they are both studying for helping careers. My younger daughter is studying special ed for young children. Thinking about this gives me huge pleasure.

My heart is with you and yours; my daughters are, too.

[otherlander]

83. ARGH!!!!

This is what we get for placing all the emphasis on finding a cure for autism, instead of accepting that some people are autistic and need to be accomidated/accepted!
:banghead:

[Tsiyu]

98. If the 8-year-old was blind and walked into the holiday party

and accidentally stepped on the presents and knocked over the tree, would any teacher be so cruel as to put her in a room by herself because she "couldn't control herself and was a danger to other students at a party?"

A mature, trained, professional educator would say the child could not help herself - because the child is blind - and would try to guide her out of harm's way more effectively thereafter.

Hypothetically, say, instead of blindness this same kid has some obsessive issues with an item of clothing, maybe "blinding" her to the rationale of having to remove it, so she - being a child - refuses with all ego-centric childishness.

Because of her particular "disability" she cannot "see" that her refusal is disruptive. Perhaps she feels fear at losing something which comforts her and this "blinds" her to the inappropriateness of her actions. At any rate, the educator, being an ADULT and able to see the big picture, should be trained to recognize that children - especially those with mental challenges - often exhibit obsessive behaviors. Patiently guiding the child through emotional difficulty is as vital to that child as the ADULT guidance given to the blind child in the example above.

Perhaps this isn't what the fuss was about, but wouldn't it be nice if America could become a place where people try to accommodate mental disability as unconditionally as they (sometimes) do physical disability?

These days I help out an attorney doing guardian ad litem work for the "least of these." Children and adults with mental disabilities are treated like shit throughout the system.

We are still barbarians, really.

Glad to see some peacemaking in this thread anyway. We need to keep the conversation going...

[ThomCat]

104. You are absolutely right.

It doesn't sound like they made any effort to understand or accommodate her disability. It seems more like they were out to punish her for it.

I just don't understand why they wouldn't want her to go to the party in that hoody? That makes no sense. What business is it of their what a student wears as long as it doesn't violate the dress code? From the very start this whole thing sounds fishy.

They had no valid reason to exclude her from the party if the conflict over the hoody is their only substantial excuse, and everything after that was an escalation of their own irresponsibility.

Instead of all of this, they should have been including that child, protecting her, and looking out for her.

[Tsiyu]

105. Perhaps the teacher(s) had unrealistic expectations

about the party, and got upset because they "went to all that trouble" and now look, she's ruined it for everyone!

Teachers lose their patience like anyone, I suppose, or perhaps there was just no training in how to de-escalate emotional outbursts.

But it is so scary how some teachers and cops seem too ready to criminalize childhood. Jesus, if we handcuffed every eight-year-old who had a breakdown ... it boggles the mind.

Thanks for your words on this thread. It's encouraging to see that some people "get it." :)

[ThomCat]

103. Don't they have any competent special ed teachers there?

That school should be sued off the face of the earth.

:wtf: