Warren spits in Obama's face; stains unity theme

[many a good man]

We have a long tradition in this country of invocations and benedictions at public events that are non-denominational and ecumenical. Warren violated this tradition by inserting Evangelical Christian-specific language into the beginning and end of his prayer.

This was a spiteful display of arrogance and division that undermined the inaugural them of unity ("We Are One"). President Obama showed great magnanimity in going out on a limb to include someone whose extremist, bigoted religious beliefs are greatly at odds with his own and his supporters'. Warren response was like spitting in his face.

The middle paragraphs of Warren's prayer were wonderful. However, the beginning and end were unacceptably exclusive. Interfaith prayers should never mention Jesus or non-universal principles. He ended his invocation with the Lord's Prayer, a contentious point which decades ago led to the first bans on school prayer because some of the words differ slightly in the Protestant and Roman Catholic version.

I'm a non-believer, but I can tolerate benedictions at public events because of historic and cultural reasons as long as they are ecumenical and universal. I found Warren's invocation offensive and dangerous.

[BeeBee]

1. I was happy to see Obama include non-believers

in his speech.

[katandmoon]

8. Me too...and very surprised, pleasantly surprised

[leftstreet]

2. Also the "Oh God of Israel" statement

I understand what it means, but it shouldn't have been included.

K&R

[TornadoTN]

13. That was the final straw for me

I have stayed on the sidelines on the whole Warren issue, deferring to Obama's judgement on the matter. I may not have agree with it personally, but I wasn't letting anything rain on the day.

But Warren's prayer was horrific and divisive. It only sought to seperate people who didn't agree with his worldview by saying "hey, God loves you too - even though you're wrong"

[LibraLiz1973]

It was more of a performance than a prayer. He looked a damn fool.

[tbyg52]

47. Ain't that the truth. He behaved just like the jerk he is. nt

[Captain Hilts]

20. Yes, I noticed that one too. nt

[Captain Hilts]

3. Warren sucked and he was just trying to bag applause. I was waiting for "Go Steelers!" or something

[kestrel91316]

4. And it wasn't a mere prayer. It was a SERMON with the Lord's Prayer

at the end.

Truly inappropriate and offensive.

[Gormy Cuss]

26. Damn straight. It was a sermon, not a simple invocational prayer. n/t

[Johonny]

5. He also has a terrible hair cut

[Captain Hilts]

23. Well, if you won't let gays cut your hair, it's a risk you run. nt

[IsItJustMe]

58. LOL. Good one.

[enough]

6. As a non-believer, I agree with every word of this.

I have long been used to accepting interfaith religious benedictions in public, for the reasons you state. But the unnecessary invocations of Jesus were a purposeful goad, I believe. It could have been quite powerful without that.

[G_j]

7. I don't remember any of Billy Graham's invocations

nor do I remember others, so it's hard to comment.
Did Graham ever mention Jesus?

[renate]

49. I heard on NPR this morning, before the inauguration, that he did NOT

Warren was incredibly, over-the-top, irredeemably tacky to take the opportunity Obama gave him--he knew perfectly well that there was controversy over his selection, and instead of thanking Obama by doing the classy thing and going out of his way to be inclusive, he rolled around in the undeserved attention like a dog rolls around in a dead squirrel.

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

9. I didn't think any of what he said was wonderful.

I admit that I violated my long-standing distaste for Presidential inagurations and actually watched this one, including Warren's little gibber jabber. Could someone not have told this fuckwit to shave and buy a suit that fits? Seriously, he's like some kind of sweaty lecher uncle.

[katandmoon]

10. Obama should have known Warren was a snake before he picked him up

I just hope this is the last time Obama kisses his considerable ass.

[walkaway]

11. let's hope that pulled his teeth and he can go back to being...

the leader of a bunch of idiots who believe in his sky god bullsh*t.

What a horrible, small man.

[whathehell]

25. Ummm...Those who believe in in a "sky god" are between the ages of about three and five..

..Stop misrepresenting something you know little about.

[immoderate]

28. Double Ummm -- Didn't Warren say "Our father, who art in heaven...?"

That's not the sky god? :shrug:

Yeah, I know, since we've explored space, theists have to be inventive to find places for their gods to live.

--IMM

[whathehell]

45. I didn't listen to Warren and he is hardly representative of all Believers..

As for Heaven being "in the sky"?...No, In twelve years of religious schooling, I never heard that heaven had a geographic location.

Many believe who do believe in the afterlife think it may lie in another dimension, not in another "place".

I'm an agnostic by the way -- I just dislike the cheap shots that are regularly taken at any and all on this board who are NOT atheists.

[immoderate]

51. The term "sky god" isn't geographic either.

You should allow others the leeway you reserve for yourself. When people are talking about an omniscient, omnipotent, creative intelligence that transcends natural law, that's the sky god. It used to be the top of Mt. Olympus, now it's another dimension. What dimension might that be? The core issue here is what's real and what's imaginary. Every culture has its mythology. The conceit here is that some think theirs and only theirs is real. All but one of them must be wrong. And that's a maximum.

Think about how much trouble poor habits of thought has gotten us into. It's not cheap.

--IMM

[whathehell]

55. "The term "sky god" isn't geographic either"...It's NOT?...Gee, then .

that contradicts you're last two messages!..I can see that in the face of challenges, you just re-define!

"The core issue is what's real and what's imaginary"...Uh huh..and YOU have a lock on that?...Shit, even scientists allow that the existence of God cannot be proven or disproven...You know something that they don't?

"Every culture has its mythology..The conceit here is that some think theirs and only theirs is real"...
Yes, but what you do NOT see is that you share that conceit with you're dogmatic disbelief...Guess no one has ever told you that prosyletizing atheists are as tiresome as prosyletizing believers.

As for the question of dimensions, familiarize yourself with the theories of Einstein (who was not an atheist, by the way) and those of Quantum Physics...I don't have the time, space or inclination to do the work for you.

Frankly, I don't give a flying fuck WHAT you believe, I simply wish that the aggressive atheists here would stop using the most TANGENTIAL of circumstances to start the "god argument" again complete with the usual insults hurled at everyone who does NOT view things as they do.

I've had this argument too many times on this board and I refuse to be pulled into it again.....I have nothing to "prove" or "disprove" and so as far as I'm concerned, this conversation is over:hi:

[immoderate]

61. I think you're begging the question.

You're the one who is suggesting that heaven is not in the sky. So what do you do when you "gaze toward the heavens?" I understand that words can have multiple meanings, and I'm no more inclined to play games than you are. The ideas of other dimensions are mathematical constructs and they have not been observed, and their existence not demonstrated.

Einstein, (who actually was an atheist, his euphemistic references to god playing dice and such being his "faith" that there is some order to the universe, which he never found) worked in the four dimensions of space-time, not some alternate universe. Unless you have some evidence for the existence of god or direct contact, your notion of god comes from your, or someone else's imagination, right? Is there another choice? Agreed that there is no proof either way for god's existence, but that is true for Zeus, Odin, Baal, Santa Clause, or any other imaginary being. Do these all have the same probability of reality? According to you, they do.

Proselytizing is telling you what to believe. AFAIAC, you can believe anything you want. I am not leading any prayers. I also did not offer up any dogma. Just because people take offense doesn't mean that insults were intended.

You needn't respond if you don't wish to. But I'm always willing to learn new things. :)

--IMM

[olegramps]

60. I must have a different translation than you have.

Luke reads, "Then he led them out of the city as far as bethany, where he raised his hands and blessed them. As he was blessing them, he departed from them and was taken up into heaven." Jews of His time believed that the earth was a flat round circle supported by four columns and that heaven was an abode in the sky above the clouds.

[Seldona]

54. Really?

Just about every representation of heaven I have seen involves clouds. Why does a search for 'gates of heaven' show about 19 in 20 images of them embedded in CLOUDS? That's some pretty sophisticated shit for a 5 year old.

http://images.google.com/images?hl=en&q=Gates+of+Heaven&gbv=2

Then there is the bible itself, "And I saw a stairway DESCEND from heaven."

Sky god is in no way out of line at ALL. I know, sounds silly. Doesn't it?

[whathehell]

57. Ever hear of "metaphor"?

Fact is, dear, most Christians don't take everything in the Bible literally...In fact, many believers don't "take" the Bible at all...They take the Koran, the Torah...or no particular book at all.

It looks like continuing the "sky god" attack will necessitate an examination of ALL of the world's religions for reference to it....Good luck with that!

As I told IMModerate, I'm done with the gratuitous "god argument" and so I am, if you will, done with you on this conversation.

P.S. A suggestion: if you'd rather not bother educating yourself on world religions, maybe you could save time by just looking up the DU Rules mandating respect for the personal beliefs of others...See ya:hi:

[Seldona]

64. Metaphor?

Please. Why would an angel need WINGS?

[immoderate]

67. Why can't you allow that the term "sky god" is also a metaphor?

You give theists a lot of leeway, but apply the strictest literalism to non-theists. "Sky god" is a term that applies to the omnipotent, supernatural being that is responsible for the workings of the universe and erratically applies his/her whims to our fate. You want to "catch" us on pinning down where he lives. But believers get a lot of latitude from you where their notions contradict reality.

Then you do the hit and run. You make your statement and then close down the discussion. I contend that it's because your arguments are rather thin and wont stand up to scrutiny. You mention world religions and physics and Einstein, but you don't demonstrate any depth of knowledge of those things.

--IMM

[HillbillyBob]

12. Precisely why the glbt community are up in arms, we were pretty sure

this maroon would pull this crap and why we so strenuously objected.
This and the snubbing of Bishop Gene Robinson have punctured our excitement for Obama. I did not hear it I turned down the volume on the tv and left the room.
I started to lose enthusiasm for Obama, but still had hope after the FISA vote.
I will hold my judgement in reserve, but frankly I am not really all that hyped up anymore. This stuff just licked the red off the candy for me.
Thanks Rpigkkkreestians.

[musette_sf]

14. a Steaming Pile of Patriarchal BS.

[Captain Hilts]

21. ALL the 'spiritual' leaders for concert and inaugural have been men. nt

[musette_sf]

29. so noted.

but pR!ck had to make sure we all knew G-d was the FATHER. :puke:

[Wednesdays]

35. Hmm...if God is Father of all

then he must be one seriously horny dude.

[PufPuf23]

50. Aretha is all woman and all soul

I thought Warren was rank and inappropriate and would rather had a take two of Maya Angelou for poetry rather than the woman who did her best today but Lowry tickled my heart.

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

15. Never being a Christian, I was highly offended with him bringing in Jesus.

It brought back memories for me of prayer in school where the Lord's Prayer. It always made me feel isolated.

[Kixel]

46. #1 reason we must keep church out of the government

I realize the importance of other reasons-but to me, I always think that using religion to exclude is the opposite of what my faith is about. I'm sorry you were made to feel that way.

[RedCloud]

16. Wait til Hercules comes back

He'll fix those pagan Christians for stealing ALL his titles of adoration.

Son of Man
Good Shepherd
Prince of Peace
Saviour

[snappyturtle]

17. I guess Warren and Roberts didn't get the memo: Play nice! nt

[formercia]

18. "..Joe Biden, a Catholic."

I thought that was a bit much.

As many of you know, I have little love for KOM/SMOM and Opus Dei, but I think that was way off the reservation.

[BanzaiBonnie]

19. Besides offensive...

it was boring and uninspiring. Can't hold a candle to the benediction. That one was great!

[many a good man]

27. I have to agree

My expectations were not high to say the least. He not only was boring, but offensive and divisive, too.

I can only hope that most Americans came away thinking the same thing. Its high past time to sweep this kind of thinking into the dustbin of history. Change is good.

[Tommy_Carcetti]

22. Who's Warren?

:hide:

[EFerrari]

24. I hope the president and his people learn from this because

we all were dragged through it.

[immoderate]

30. Dunno -- they were all "singing along" during the lord's prayer...

I don't think they noticed how bad Warren was.


--IMM

[road2000]

32. Wish I'd seen if Biden went along with the Prot version.

Just curious.

[bertman]

31. He was terrible. It's over. Time to get over it.

[Malikshah]

33. Nope. Not that easy. He's been given a leg up. Tie that to the PIC

crap over Robinson, etc.

It is by no means over.

This is just the beginning. Civil Rights for all. Pure and simple.

[kenny blankenship]

36. Has Prop 8 been overturned or repealed yet? No?

Well then how bout you stick a sock in it? The "Rev." Warren led efforts to pass Proposition 8 stripping away full civil rights from US citizens on the basis of sexual orientation, and he will never be forgotten or forgiven for that. Getting over it first requires that it be over. It's just begun.

[Name removed]

37. Deleted message

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[kenny blankenship]

39. Thanks for your Democratic "solidarity"

So fucking typical. It really warms the heart on a cold day.
Evidently you do need some assistance, since you appear to believe that Obama could not chosen anyone else for the Invocation who would be an Evangelical minister and not also a notoriouos leader in stripping away people's civil rights.
That's pretty fucking stupid.

[Name removed]

40. Deleted message

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[Name removed]

43. Deleted message

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[Bluebear]

41. Who started the subthread with "get over it"?

Just sayin'.

[Malikshah]

48. Yeah. Who played the Scalia "Get over it" game?

Just Sayin....


C'mon folks.

"Get over it" needs to get over it. :)

[Joe Chi Minh]

34. You seem to be mixing up non-denominational with non-religious and non-Christian. In a

country where you are a small minority, why would you expect its leaders to defer to your group's wishes in a matter of such primordial importance, whether you're a believer or not?

Just as some, if not all, atheists, think prayer is just talking to yourself - and that makes perfect sense if you don't believe - religious believers would surely find any personal, "ecumenical and universal" benediction composed and delivered by an atheist would be daft and meaningless, unless the latter had proved that he had the charism to bestow a divine blessing.

[many a good man]

44. Not at all

I fully expect a benediction to be religious. Tradition dictates that it also be ecumenical. That can mean ecumenical in the Christian-only, non-denominational sense - in a more parochial setting - or ecumenical in the broader sense in a larger inter-faith setting.

Shorthand: you can say "God" or even "Lord," but stay away from "Jesus."

I can't imagine what a benediction from an atheist would sound like! One hand clapping?

[immoderate]

52. How about...

"May good fortune always favor your endeavors, and the kindness you bestow on others be returned a thousandfold."

I could go on, but you get the gist, I'm sure. A benediction does not have to be religious. (You could look it up.)

--IMM

[Joe Chi Minh]

63. As long as its not the "one-hand clap" Hunter Thompson gave a supercilious

Zen Buddhist teacher!

[Skittles]

38. great magnanimity?

please, Obama sucked up to the very worst of the bigoted right - and you expected Warren to respond with INCLUSIVITY? :puke:

[hunter]

42. Now Rick Warren can get back to his saddlebacking or whatever it is he does.

I think it has something to do with farm animals, but I'm not quite sure, and I really don't want to know...



http://www.saatchi-gallery.co.uk/artists/artpages/alexander_hoda_saddleback.htm

[earth mom]

53. I refused to listen to that mo fo. I had the sound on mute.

Fuck Warren! :grr:

[peekaloo]

56. I left the room when the Rolling Funder appeared. nt

[underpants]

59. It sucked

worst thing I have ever heard of the sort

[ismnotwasm]

62. I keep saying, He's a sociopath

He shouldn't be allowed to give a a prayer at a small ice cream stand. AND he's an asshole

[leftofthedial]

65. nothing about Warren's presence or participation is defensible.

[Starry Messenger]

66. That wasn't really very reachy-outy of him was it? n/t

As far as I can tell, the Republicans are still pulling their partisan BS today. The magic Warren bullet doesn't seem to have been the reassuring panacea we were assured he was going to be.