To what degree is allowing manufacturing jobs to be outsourced resp for this 2nd depression?

[Sarah Ibarruri]

We have almost ZERO manufacturing jobs now in this country. Don't tell me that doesn't have something to do with joblessness! Once we had a blend of office, service and manufacturing. Now manufacturing has been taken abroad, yet these same companies are allowed to sell their products in our country.

The enrichment of certain American billionaires has been the impoverishment of our middle class.

[baldguy]

1. It's the primary proximate cause.

We can't buy anything if we don't produce anything.

[Veritas_et_Aequitas]

3. An economy can produce more than physical objects.

And we still do produce quite a bit of physical things, like textiles and food. Most of that gets shipped overseas, though.

[baldguy]

11. We manufacture 747s and hamburgers. Not much in between.

And we're losing the 747s.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

13. Yep - somebody is going to correct the mistake made when free trade was permitted

Free trade only benefits one group: the mega-rich.

[Veritas_et_Aequitas]

18. Our exports include:

automobiles (thank you, China), industrial supplies and raw materials, cheap cotton and textiles (it did a good job screwing up many third-world economies), and food. Lots and lots of food. Fruit has been taking a hit over the last 5 years, but it's still a strong competitor on the foreign markets to the point that it's still cheaper than many local varieties sold in Latin American and Caribbean markets. That was a big problem in Jamaica especially where the banana was a staple to their economy before the IMF imposed a lop-sided "free trade agreement" on them. Corn and other grains are also major exports to foreign countries, particularly Latin American and Africa.

Of course there's also various services we provide (beyond financial ones) such as education and energy.

[baldguy]

20. How many domestic manufacturers of computers are there?

Cameras? Televisions? Telephones? Anything that requires a high degree of technology and skilled assembly workers is manufactured OUTSIDE of America.

Third world countries are exploited for their raw materials, food exports and low-skill, low-tech manufacturing capabilities. The goal of the multinational corporatocracy is to turn America completely into a third world economy.

[Veritas_et_Aequitas]

22. Right because our economy completely languished under Clinton.

The shift away from manufacture before Bush did. Hiding behind protectionist policies will be our death knell. Reform is necessary, not evisceration.

[baldguy]

26. Clinton's economic policies were, for the most part extensions of the previous Reagan/Bush policies.

NAFTA, MFN for China, GATT, setting up the WTO, the "reform" of copy write law, etc, etc all geared to empower multinational corporations at the expense of individuals.

The only difference was that Clinton had a sane tax policy.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

32. The way I understand it, Clinton promoted any and all outsourcing of our jobs

All that free trade accomplished, was a redistribution of money from the middle class to the mega-rich.

[TheKentuckian]

34. Lets say its not protectionism...think of it as being self sufficient.

Death knell my ass. What goods and services are we incapable of producing "in house"? The only reason we "needed" globalization was to promote growth, if our economy is no longer addicted to growth on such a scale then there's not been a good explanation of why we are especially interdependent.

[cascadiance]

36. There's a problem with our SUBSIDIZED corn and other food exports...

With the ag subsidies that are in place still that primarily go to big ag companies now that DON'T NEED THEM (unlike family farmers before them), but get them because they OWN congressmen through lobbyists on capitol hill.

Now not only does this allow them to still make money (by getting our taxpayer dollars too for basically nothing), but it also allows them to in effect *dump* these ag products at below market price in other countries like Bolivia, Mexico, and other South American countries, where they primarily had agricultural economies before. They had many of their farmers put out of business when they couldn't compete with these exports, and therefore forced to sell their farms at bargain rates to the elites in those countries that profited from allowing the IMF and World Bank to get them on the hook for loans, etc. And these elites turned around and built factories (Maquilas in Mexico) that used these very same out of work farmers as cheap labor to help companies outsource their manufacturing operations down there. And then when these same companies could find cheaper labor in places like Southeast Asia, they'd pack up their bags (usually they were leasing these facilities), and go elsewhere, leaving those old farmers without their farms and also without their jobs. Where'd they go? You guessed it. They come here, contributing to the illegal immigration problem we have now, and provide another source of cheap labor for the corporate world.

Not only is this economically savaging everyone except those in control of these companies and the elites in these countries, but it also screws many people's health when places like Mexico aren't allowed to charge tariffs by the WTO on imported "dumped" soft drinks or other products with HFCS sweetener instead of cane sugar in them (High fructose corn syrup). HFCS is widely believed to be much more unhealthy and a source of diabetes than regular natural sugars are (cane, honey, etc.).

So, I think you have to look more closely at the details when we talk about us exporting food products helping the middle class here. I believe it does the opposite now with the ag subsidies. If these companies were forced to compete without these subsidies, then perhaps the grow/buy local mentality would grow more since that would be less expensive (and allow these South American economies to grow back to what they used to be as self-sustaining entities, which also helps global warming, since there's not as much shipping of food products to their destination either.

We should not only be working to get out own manufacturing and middle class jobs "local" back here again, but also push to help them become "local" again in other countries too. Then the corporate elites wouldn't be raping us so much and be forced to pay the true costs of working within a global economy that's managed for the environment and all of us instead of at their whims.

[Hannah Bell]

39. not really true. Per this report, & others I've read, US mfg output has continued to grow.

Jobs have not, but productivity increases are a big part of the picture, too. Every country in the world has been losing mfg jobs. E.g. the US produces more steel today than ever, but with only 10% of the previous workforce.

From 2003:

"U.S. industrial production grew 3.6 percent a year on average in the last decade, vs. 2 percent in the 1970s, according to Federal Reserve statistics."

http://www.marketwatch.com/News/Story/Story.aspx?guid=%7B2032E764-03E3-40A2-B357-9888926B7F82%7D&siteid=mktw

A good deal of offshoring is driven by tax policy. Maybe that will change.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

4. That's what I think too nt

[taught_me_patience]

44. Total manufacturing production

is as high as its ever been.

[Ikonoklast]

2. The real question is, what sector will lead us out of this mess?

It was manufacturing in '02...I guess the service sector will do it now, since financial is in the toilet.

Deflation is a serious concern here.

[w4rma]

7. The service sector? We're going to service one another out of the depression? That's ridiculous.

We sure can't service folks in other nations. So there will be more money and jobs leaving the country until manufacturing is restored.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

14. Exactly what I think! Until companies are punished for outsourcing....

We will have a growing unemployment problem.

[Ikonoklast]

17. It is ridiculous.

That's why I wrote it.

Should have used the :sarcasm: .

A country that cannot produce manufactured goods will not have a sound economy in the long run.

We cannot rely on agriculture exports to do it all, financial sector is a disaster, manufacturing is teetering on being extinct...

But I guess the Republics figure they'll get their lawns mowed cheap with all that underutilized labor looking for employment.

[Liberal_in_LA]

46. Agreed. An economy can't thrive on workers serving each other coffee

[LakeSamish706]

5. This is something that the Obama people are going to have to get a handle on pretty...

quick. There are companies announcing major layoffs every day and this Administration will have to figure out which companies are good Corporate citizens and which are not and then come up with sanctions to deal with those that are not.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

10. Manufacturing jobs need to be brought back here pretty quickly too

I see it like this, if your company chooses to manufacture abroad, you'll have to pay the difference to our govt. to sell your product here. Otherwise, bring your manufacturing operation back here.

[LakeSamish706]

15. I agree with you. Also think that NAFTA, CAFTA and any other trade agreements...

need to be seriously looked at.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

16. Unless Obama does this, he can continue spending our billions and jobs will continue to die.....

... because if the jobs are elsewhere that means we are not making money to spend on our economy, which means our economy is dead.

[leftofthedial]

6. it is the killing blow in what the ruling elite hoped was the last battle in the class war.

kill the American middle class; kill any aspiration of the masses toward true democracy.

Replace it with capitalism, which has been conflated with democracy for so long in this country that few understand they are not the same thing, and--presto! the second coming of feudalism and rule by divine right (that is, inheritance).

[Sarah Ibarruri]

12. That's what I think too. I think they're going to have to penalize those who manufacture abroad

It's the only fair thing to do. You don't manufacture here? Oh too bad so sad, you can't sell here because it will cost you an arm and a leg in tariffs.

[leftofthedial]

28. I agree.

Call me protectionist.

We need to be protectionist until this country can produce enough for this country and enough to keep us employed.

[Veritas_et_Aequitas]

8. It's not helping, but it's not the biggest problem.

If we had a more vibrant manufacturing sector, we'd probably be slightly better off. However it seems like layoffs are hitting broadly across the board, not just affecting blue collar workers. That suggests that the nature of the recession is different than a languishing manufacturing sector. However, you're absolutely spot on about the enriching of a few at the expense of the middle class. Supply-side economics will do that to a country.

[The_Casual_Observer]

9. I work in the manufacturing world & business couldn't be better right now.

No real competition & plenty of customers. For manufacturing businesses that have survived all this outsourcing, leveraged buyout crap & everything else, there is still ( and will always be) a need for hard goods & somebody needs to supply it.

[Ikonoklast]

19. What sector? DoD related?

Or building for export?

[The_Casual_Observer]

24. No, completely commercial. Aluminum pressure vessels for compressed gas.

[Ikonoklast]

27. That's interesting.

Where is the demand coming from? Are they sized for commercial use, or more for retail customers?



I'm just being nosy.

[The_Casual_Observer]

30. Medical Oxygen, Co2, Industrial gas, SCUBA.

[Ikonoklast]

31. Thnx. n/t

[Sarah Ibarruri]

33. :-) nt

[sammythecat]

37. Apparently your own sector has remained healthy. You say,

"For manufacturing businesses that have survived all this outsourcing, leveraged buyout crap & everything else, there is still ( and will always be) a need for hard goods & somebody needs to supply it." Well, that has, is, and always will be the case. I think the thread is about how all the manufacturing businesses that have NOT survived the outsourcing, etc. has contributed to the current economic crisis. And crisis it is.

I'm too lazy to do the research, but I'll bet I could come up with dozens of name brands that we all grew up with that, if there making anything at all, they're making it overseas. Of the top of my head I can think of Levi Strauss, Winchester, US Steel, Bethlehem Steel. The Auto industry is a basket case and there is no garment industry anymore. Huge numbers of good paying jobs have just disappeared and they are not being replaced. I grew up near Steelton, Pa., a town built around the Bethlehem Steel mill. Guys would go there right after high school and be pretty confident of a decent, and decently secure, income. I don't think it's an exaggeration to say that every single household in that town had at least one person working at the steel mill. It was a smaller version of GM and Detroit. That's all gone now. Everything that used to be made there is now made in Japan and India. I've said enough, but I can think of several other examples of manufacturing jobs that used to employ thousands right here in a hundred mile radius that have gone overseas. The people that had those jobs are now either unemployed or they are working harder for lower pay and few, if any, benefits. And, they are likely driving 40 to 80 miles each way to get to those crappy jobs.

You haven't noticed anything like this and everything in the American manufacturing industry is moving along just fine?

[The_Casual_Observer]

42. I didn't say anything like that I only know what I am doing, and

my business is okay. My business didn't do any of that shit & has remained competitive. Nobody is getting rich, but we are all making a living.


I'm not at all surprised that you are sour about the fact that my business is okay.

[sammythecat]

43. The OP was about the outsourcing of manufacturing jobs

and its negative effect on the economy. "To what degree is allowing manufacturing jobs to be outsourced resp for this 2nd depression?" That was the question. Your response was to say that your company makes stuff and they're doing fine. Well, thanks for the enlightening input. I'm sure it's obvious to everyone that not every single manufacturing job in the country has gone overseas. No one said that and your response was as pointless and dumb as if you responded to a thread on the AIDS epidemic by saying, "I don't have AIDS. I have plenty of sex and I don't have AIDS, what's the prob?"

As for me being "sour" about the fact that your business is okay, that's another indication you're not fully comprehending what you read. I told you exactly what my concern was. It had nothing to do with companies, like yours, that are here. That's a GOOD thing, I like that. My bitch was about the reason so many companies that used to be here are now over there.

I've already repeated the OP above. If you read it again you'll see it has nothing to do with you and how well you're doing. Your own prosperity is irrelevant to the discussion. It's about OTHER people and the reasons why they are NOT doing so well. It's not all about you. It really isn't.

[The_Casual_Observer]

47. Well genius, my point was that we never outsourced, or went offshore

Just worked at it & stayed competitive & we're still manufacturing stuff here. Sorry about your own personal hell.

[sammythecat]

48. Seriously, you have a problem with reading comprehension.

Are these automated responses I'm getting from you? The status of your company has nothing to do with the original post or anything I have said. No one is talking about YOUR company and how you "Just worked at it & stayed competitive & we're still manufacturing stuff here."

Once again, the topic is about OTHER companies that have NOT worked at it, stayed competitive, and still make stuff here. Perhaps if you had a friend read that for you they might be able to help you form an appropriate response. You know, like whether or not you think all the off-shoring of manufacturing jobs has, or hasn't, been a significant factor in the current economic crisis.

Believe it or not, but you really can give an entirely appropriate and relevant response to the OP and myself without saying one word about your own personal situation. Kind of like what I've done, but you seemed to have missed that completely. Because of your own apparent inability to consider or comment on anything not directly related to yourself you seem to think that no one else can either.

[davidwparker]

21. people can't pay mortgages because they have no jobs. fix job problem and

the rest will take care of itself.

[lib2DaBone]

23. We offshore far more than manufactuing.....

Medical Imaging, school test design for US Schools, Debt Collections, Credit reports, local news reporting, recruiting & Hiring...

http://www.smartmoney.com/Spending/Budgeting/10-Ways-Outsourcing-Could-Alter-Your-Life/?page=2

[Hannah Bell]

25. It's not simply offshoring. It's productivity. The US produces more steel than it did in the days

of Big Steel, with 90% less labor.

Even China is losing manufacturing jobs, even before the slowdown.

The fact is, 5% of the world's population could probably produce manufactured goods enough for the entire world.

[hay rick]

29. The curse of productivity.

Good point. Productivity gains were supposed to lead to a virtuous cycle- increased production, higher profits AND wages, and a higher standard of living. The reality: productivity increases have combined with demographic, political, technological, and trade factors to reduce wages and standards of living.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

35. So true. The aim is always the same: how to get slave labor or something like it ...

... so the mega-rich can pocket everything.

[Hannah Bell]

40. Yes. If the workers filling the jobs had been given part of the productivity increases in

higher wages or greater leisure (e.g. 40 hours pay for a 30 hour week), we wouldn't be in the fix we're in.

Instead, capital took most of the value & invested in bubbles, driving up the costs of housing & other assets for a workforce whose wages have been flat for 30 years.

[hay rick]

41. The problem with productivity increases is

that it reduces labor's BARGAINING power. The economic power lost by labor accrues to the benefit of management and ownership interests. The resulting increase in "earnings" is largely a windfall and should be reclaimed for society as a whole through progressive taxation. Labor-friendly legislation such as EFCA is also needed to restore equitable value to labor.

[Stinky The Clown]

38. To a very high degree

[underpants]

45. I think it was 1. tighted credit 2. over expansion

and for #2 I don't mean in a conspiracy way everyone was expanding their business and when there was a hiccup suddenly the tight string that a lot of business (especially smaller ones) were working on snapped